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Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations (Read 6757 times)
Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #15 - 11/26/13 at 04:42:43
 
I've tested the various types of 5R4GY rectifiers before.

My results are ( in decreasing order of preference)

1. Brimar 5R4GY ("D" getter)
Warmest mids with that "extra" seductive quality.
Same as 2 below, a great all rounder .

2. Philips 5R4GYS ("O" getter 1970s)
Warm mids, with great performance at both bass and top end treble.

3. RCA 5R4GY ( "D" getter)
Clinical Solid state sounding in my setup.
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #16 - 11/26/13 at 11:15:13
 
My findings for the RCA in the Mk III are similar to yours. They may never go back in. . . .

I'll stick to the wonderful old RCA 5U4G that are in now.
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JD
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #17 - 11/26/13 at 12:17:53
 
It's fascinating how what we all hear.  I'll have to search for a couple of the Brimar's.  I enjoy the RCA's over the Phillips but understand why Lon sticks by his trusty old NOS RCA 5u4g's.  Experienced some listening fatigue (never really happened before) this weekend and traced it to my RCA 5r4gy's( clinical is a good description).  It's weird but I preferred the sound when they were breaking in as compared to broken in... Still kept them in my Zp3 and Csp2+ but put back the 5u4g's in my Torii and the sound relaxed greatly.  

Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday Decware peeps.

JD
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #18 - 12/07/13 at 10:00:51
 

Just wanted to share more details about my Torii MK4.

It currently sounds better without the CSP3 in my audio chain.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1386397153/0#0

At 150hrs, it has really bloomed like a sonic rose.
This will really be the last amp I will ever need. Smiley
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tgarden
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #19 - 12/07/13 at 19:49:55
 
I would not be surprised if you see further bloom, once you reach 400-500 hours of playing time.

That was my experience with my Mark III/IV conversion.

I'm currently at 850 hours.  I saw sonic improvement past the 600 hour mark, but just a little.

Every bit makes a difference, though!
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Lin
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #20 - 12/07/13 at 20:01:30
 
You have been running your amp 15 hours a day? Shocked
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tgarden
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #21 - 12/08/13 at 16:35:52
 
I Like Music.  As does my wife (who frequently works from home), my daughter and her friends, and our several friends who visit weekly.  We also have a number of friends who stop by from time to time.

TV, cable, electronic games, texting; I have zero interest in the latter two and minimal interest in the others.  I spend less than thirty minutes per day on the web.

We have great FM stations in the Seattle area, and I own close to 3000 LPs, all purchased within the last ten years.

My time is spent listening to music and interacting with people, face to face.

Mike in Seattle area



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« Last Edit: 12/08/13 at 16:38:28 by tgarden »  
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mark58
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #22 - 12/08/13 at 18:12:34
 
I was going to start a new thread but decided to ask my question here.  A few days ago i took out the KT66's and put in some  Siemens/RTF EL34's.  I was surprised at the difference...I prefer the EL34's...at least for now.  My question is, has anyone tried the 6L6 type tube in a Torii.  I'd also be interested in what input/signal tubes people are using in the Torii and CSP3 and their impressions.  I'm using some Amprex 7803's in the Torii which I like.  Mark.
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tgarden
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #23 - 12/08/13 at 18:39:06
 
Hi Mark,  I'm glad you like those Amperex 7308's.   I've been very happy with them in my MK III/IV Torii conversion.  Amperex pinched waist 6922's would probably be sublime in the MK IV, but for what a tightly matched pair would cost, I'd rather put the difference between those and 7308's, in a better source component.

About a year ago, I tried a "loaner" pair of the pinched waist 6922's, in my then MK III.  They were a smidgen nicer than the 7308's, but the price for a tightly matched pair would be very high.

In the next week, I'll compare my Siemens/RFT EL34's to the existing Tungsol KT66's.

I'm curious also, if anyone has compared KT66's to 6L6 tube types in the MKIV?

Mike in Seattle area.
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dalerf
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #24 - 01/21/14 at 10:42:33
 
I must agree tube rolling is expensive, I have settled on RCA 5U4GB rectifier Top O Getters, Sylvania OA3, matched quad RCA 6L6GC Black Plate, Mullard gold pin E88CC 6922. I was originally a bit disappointed, but now a few months later the sound is really coming along nicely, especially using my Klipsch RF7ii, at first they were way to treble sounding, I have put a 10 ohm resister between the cross overs to get a bit more bass. I purchsed the speakers same time I got the amp, so both bits of gear sound a lot warmer now, I only play records on this system. It is pretty hard when the speakers have 101db senstivity, I have to buy new or mint condition records, anything less is a waste of time.
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #25 - 01/22/14 at 16:06:40
 
My MKIV is still a little green (325-350hrs), but lately seems to have made some strides toward its real sound. I am guessing the caps have woken up again, this time being very, very good in the circuit.

Being used to EL34s in my MkIII, I have found the Tungsol KT66 and Psvane 5881s a bit flat sounding, unemotional, and a little veiled in the lower mids. But this is hair splitting, actually the stock tubes were really nice in breakin. Impressive voicing. The sound was big, open, detailed, extending, and rich. But with a little tube play, both power tubes are quite impressive in their own right. They just take a little work for me to get close to the sublime. The main disconcerting thing I was getting was an odd distance from the music....it sounded great, but not quite having the sense of players in the room except with recordings mastered to give this vibe.

Right now I am listening to the 5881s with Chatham 5R4GWYs, Westinghouse labelled 50s OB2, cryo'd RCA OC2, and Valvo 6DJ8s. All of the tubes other than the 5881s are very solid and open helping to bring out a very expressive and balanced sound that is quite detailed, but warm and sweet, and smooth. The 5881s to me are open in the mid/upper mids, but can be a bit thick in the low mids and bottom, though detailed throughout. So I am using tubes to open the low end up a bit. Actually, these OB3s have a beautiful warmth, but they reduce the slightly forward push of the amp (in this system/room) a bit compared to OA3s, and reduce the low-mid  and bass a touch, contributing to the opening of the set. It sounds incredible. I was even able to start liking the feedback mode switched in, where before this breakin breakthrough, I found that sound a bit diffused.

This sound is very, very good to me. Rich but clarified with inner/micro detail and micro dynamics that are exceptional, AND without hardness.

I still keep trying to get to know the amp with the KT66 types since it was voiced this way. But for a few days I put in some cryod Mullard reissue EL34s, the ones I had been favoring in my MkIII, and I was floored by the sweet lushness, amazing detail, great balance and extension, openness and warmth. I did have to turn the treble knobs down more with them, but they sounded really really beautiful with the other tubes I had in. It will be interesting to try them again as the amp breaks in more.

The other thing I noticed before this breakin shift was that tube rolling made a difference, but not like my tuned for transparency MKIII. But this is changing, tube rolling is becoming more powerful. Part of this is I think the level of sophistication of the MKIV circuit. At this point, it really does have a distinct signature that brings out the detail, body, textures, timbre and balance of the music beautifully, but may also contribute to the tubes being a little less dominant in the sound compared to my MkIII.

I am loving this amp. Still getting to know it, but at this point very impressed at the level of sophistication Steve has brought to it. And from the MkIII breakin experience, I can only expect this to improve.
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« Last Edit: 01/22/14 at 16:17:34 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #26 - 01/22/14 at 16:21:43
 
Thanks for the update will. Glad you are enjoying the amp so much!
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Lord Soth
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #27 - 01/22/14 at 17:02:11
 
Hi Will,

Thanks for taking the effort to share your detailed experience.

I've already lost track of the number of hours on my Torii MK4, but the sonic "presence" seems to be improving day by day, I think my amp is even greener than I initially thought. Smiley

Your comment about the EL34s has piqued my interest.

I'm really tempted to remove the existing KT66 and tube roll my stash of EL34s just to see what the "Hazen Grid mod" fuss is all about.

Maybe in a month or two, I'll pop in the Metal base EL34s which I originally intended to keep as spares for this amp.

As General Maximus (Gladiator) once said, "at my signal, unleash hell! " Wink

Cheers!
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« Last Edit: 01/22/14 at 17:02:44 by Lord Soth »  
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will
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #28 - 01/22/14 at 20:08:46
 
LS,

I imagine you will be impressed with the EL34s, especially since you are a tube guy and can mix and match to refine. What I think I heard was all that is reflected in the MKIV refinements over the MKIII, as well as the long heritage of the MKIV development having been part of an EL34 lineage, the EL34 MKIII being its starting point. I don't recall how it went exactly, but suspect Steve did development of the IV with EL34s, and later, in refining the design and voicing, got to preferring
the KT66 for their many good qualities.

It of course depends on the other tubes, and the stock Ruby 5U4G, OC2, OC3s, and EH 6922s are all sort of big and/or open.

All in all, I suspect there will be a number of folks who prefer EL34s and a number who prefer the 6L6GC/KT66 family, and probably ones like me that like both.

Will
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« Last Edit: 01/22/14 at 20:14:30 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #29 - 01/22/14 at 23:13:35
 
I have been using my MK IV with Tesla 7DJ8 PCC88 tubes in the input positions with good results.
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