Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/25/17 at 03:42:56 



 
 


Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print
Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations (Read 20807 times)
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #100 - 12/29/16 at 17:57:46
 
Sounds fun Mac! Good thinking on waiting out the burnin while exploring the tubes you already have or are getting. Your amp will continue to develop for hundreds of hours in meaningful ways. Having a nice variety of tubes to ride through it will be really interesting along with the Torii settings. But also waiting for expensive rare tubes is well thought out I think. I really enjoyed the Tung Sol 6L6G coke bottle shape for a long time.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/29/16 at 18:06:42 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
mac48025
Verified Member
**


I can resist
anything except
temptation

Posts: 10
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #101 - 12/29/16 at 18:16:19
 
Thanks will. It's because of you, LS, Lon and others that I came up with my tube rolling plan. While I'd be very happy with things the way they are.......as this amp is the real deal.....but rolling tubes is just too much fun.
Thankfully I sought Steve's advice when building my dedicated listening room so that I don't have room acoustics to worry about, but I was cursing him while half way into building the quadratic diffusers.....over 1000 wood cuts!!!.....I'm praising him now though. Decwares power cords, interconnects and the zcd240 sure helped improve my system also. It's safe to say I'm a Decware fanatic now.
Back to top
 
 

PS Audio P300>PS Audio Perfectwave PMT & PWD>Decware Torii mk IV>NOS Western Electric 14g speaker wire>Tekton Double Impacts
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #102 - 12/29/16 at 18:20:02
 
Nice!
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
mac48025
Verified Member
**


I can resist
anything except
temptation

Posts: 10
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #103 - 01/10/17 at 13:05:38
 
Not quite 300 hours on my mkIV and its sounding so good it's hard to imagine  it sounding any better, yet I trust everyone here and know it will. After putting in the Gold Lion KT66's for the last 150 hours I put the RCA 6L6GC black plates back in ......and they are staying in. Had I never heard the black plates I would have been very happy with the Gold Lions but that NOS magic shows up in spades in the black plates and there's no turning back for me now. My NOS rectifiers ( 60's RCA 5U4's) and input tubes ( Mullard and the Siemens that Steve recommended) will be here tomorrow......so more fun tube rolling is on the way.
Back to top
 
 

PS Audio P300>PS Audio Perfectwave PMT & PWD>Decware Torii mk IV>NOS Western Electric 14g speaker wire>Tekton Double Impacts
  IP Logged
mark58
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 4389
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #104 - 01/10/17 at 13:45:20
 
Mac, could you name the input tubes recommended by Steve with numbers and year of production.  I have often thought about trying the RCA 6L6GC's and could have gotten them at a good price but only in pairs.  Also I really like my RFT EL-34s too much.  I've tried the Tung Sol KT-66 that came with the Torii MK IV and  some Russian power tubes.  I've focused mainly on tube rolling in the ZP3 and the CSP3 and input tubes in my Monoblocks.  The Torii has had White Label Amperex 7308's almost from the beginning in the input positions...no rolling there. Mark.
Back to top
 
 

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
  IP Logged
mac48025
Verified Member
**


I can resist
anything except
temptation

Posts: 10
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #105 - 01/10/17 at 21:38:57
 
Mark, the tube Steve recommended is the Siemens PCC88/7DJ8. Not sure if those designations indicate the year they're from or not. I'm told they are very detailed with a gorgeous airy high end, silky vocals and tight bass. Steve mentioned getting long bottles but Andy at Vintage Tube Services had no idea what that was........and that's a first for him! I constantly floored by his knowledge of tubes and vintage gear. I also ordered a pair of Mullard input tubes, supposedly the antithesis of the Siemens. I want to see which input tube works best in my system.

Output tube question. I'm told the RCA 6L6GC black plates should last about 20,000 hours in the Torii. That seems high. Many seem to replace theirs yearly. Will the tubes actually last 20,000 hours but lose their fidelity much sooner?
Back to top
 
 

PS Audio P300>PS Audio Perfectwave PMT & PWD>Decware Torii mk IV>NOS Western Electric 14g speaker wire>Tekton Double Impacts
  IP Logged
Paul64
Verified Member
**




Posts: 11
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #106 - 02/18/17 at 23:45:45
 
Hey there. I've gone through 2 quads of the Gold Lion KT66s and 1 set of the KT77 GL only getting about 700-800 hours on each quad before they sound tired.  Is this normal?  Does anyone have other suggestions on something that might last longer and not be NOS expensive??  Just curious.  THANKS!  PS....can you use KT150s in the Torii MK4??

Regards,
Paul
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RW82
Verified Member
**




Posts: 35
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #107 - 02/19/17 at 01:03:44
 
Mine always ate tubes pretty quickly. I settled on the KT77's as my favs. I wouldn't go NOS for output tubes. I doubt you'll get any additional  mileage out of them.
Back to top
 
 

MBP 24 bit Audio via Oppo 103, PS Audio PWD Mk II DAC, Z-Stage, Pass Labs 30.8, Decware DM 947 Speakers.
  IP Logged
metropolis7
Senior Member
***




Posts: 58
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #108 - 02/25/17 at 17:54:21
 

Looking for suggestions on a solid functional set of matched quads. Budget stuff please, no pricey NOS collector tubes with perfect original boxes. I see matched quads on ebay for as low as $50 for all 4. Are these  all junk? Any of them solid and reliable? JJ? Valve Art?
Sonically, I am pretty fixated on midrange at the expense of all else.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #109 - 02/25/17 at 18:12:04
 
I have a Mk III, not a IV, but they seem to use the same tubes.

My favorite budget tube is:

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_80&products_id=335&osCs...

Especially if you like midrange.

Then I do like KT66 . . . my favorite that I have tried of new production are the TAD (second favorite are Gold Lion, then JJ, least favorite I have tried are the Tung-Sol).

The TAD:

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_84&products_id=394&osCs...

I like cryo'd power tubes. Not only do I think there's some sonic advantage, the process that cryoset uses seems to weed out most duds.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 610
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #110 - 02/25/17 at 18:45:16
 
I like these in my ZMA.  They can be found a little cheaper on ebay but not necessarily in matched quads.  I think others use them in Torii III and IVs.

http://www.cryoset.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=335&osCsid=d9c6f1f7d...
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #111 - 02/25/17 at 20:21:13
 
Right, I mentioned them in my post above. Nice! Cheap!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
metropolis7
Senior Member
***




Posts: 58
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #112 - 02/25/17 at 20:27:28
 

I should've clarified, I'm looking for EL34s. (It's a Blue Torii)..
Any preferences for EL34 matched quads?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #113 - 02/25/17 at 20:52:44
 
I have used KT66, KT77 and El34 in my Blue. I have not used the 6L6 types Lon and Archie are recommending in that torii, but have in my MKIII and MkIV. It might work fine in the Blue Torii too. If this tube interests you, ask Steve if someone else does not answer that one here.

I agree with RW, the KT77 is an interesting choice. If you want to stay similar electronically as EL34s (supposed to be a direct replacement), and punch things up some, the JJ KT77 is cheap, and will tend to a more linear and dynamic sound with tighter bass, while having open spaciousness, really good inner and complex detail, nice textures....

If you want to stay with the EL34 sound, and want to buy some burnt in, but not much more, I have a bunch of them I could sell inexpensively. PM if interested. New or used, if you told us the tube you are using, and how you would like to change the sound, we may be able to guide you in the right direction.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/26/17 at 00:56:58 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #114 - 03/25/17 at 22:40:18
 
Will, Lord Sloth, Lon, Et al,

i just bought a bunch of tubes recommended here.  the 6l6's, some kt77s, and a few el 34s.  I also bought some new rectifiers.  Now i'm looking into input tubes but i've kind of busted the wallet for now.  Anyone got any lying around they want to send to a brother??
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #115 - 03/25/17 at 22:42:02
 
I can send you a pair of those Chinese 6N1P type that some are talking about and up here. PM me your address if you wish.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
Paul64
Verified Member
**




Posts: 11
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #116 - 03/26/17 at 16:21:25
 
Hey guys.  Thanks for the suggestions on the 6P3S-E from Cryoset. For the last couple years I've been using GL-KT77s but they seem to wear out fast (7-800 hours) and start sound dull but I really like their sound.  After about 20-25 with the 6P3S I have to say I am pleasantly surprised, especially for the price compared to the KT77s. The mids sound great....although I think you lose a little on the top end but the bass is better than the KT77s....maybe a little more...but not flabby. Thanks again for the tip.

-Paul
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #117 - 03/26/17 at 17:35:40
 
They are very good tubes, and as you say a great value. Glad you are digging them Paul.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #118 - 03/27/17 at 03:54:41
 
Anyone have any experience with the valve art KT 66 tubes? What about these: Tungsol Reissue KT66 Power Vacuum Tube, Matched Quad https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XJCMEG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_p2h2yb9EGX1VG

Thanks!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #119 - 03/29/17 at 22:33:22
 
Hey guys!  i'm spending my evening ROLLING tubes.  I'm starting off with the cryoset Sovtek 5ar4's.  Right off the bat i feel like i'm getting more detail.  I'm pairing them with my Gold Lion kt66's right now, but plan to roll in some other power tubes throughout the night.  Any thoughts?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #120 - 03/29/17 at 22:40:42
 
Enjoy yourself! I hope you roll and find a great complement.  I'm NOT rolling tubes. . . I love what I have in my Torii Mk III so much right now, it's dishing out everything just right!

Amperex 7308
RCA OA3
"British made" 75C1 (OC2 equivalent that Will hipped me to)
TAD KT66

Just perfect for the "all around sound" I want for my collection with my sources and cabling and speakers. I'm so happy!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/29/17 at 22:41:02 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #121 - 03/30/17 at 17:39:22
 
roggae,

Sounds fun. The KT66 Valve Arts look just like Lon's favored TAD KT66 to me. The companies may well have different screening methods...don't know the details, but I am guessing they are the same basic tube. Like the KT66 Gold Lion, it is another attempt at a remake of the famous early KT66s. I have posted here and there about the VAs as has Lon about the TADs, so I think if you search the Forum with those tube names you will get some ideas.

There are also posts around on the Tungsol KT66. I suspect Steve still ships these with the the Mystery and MKIV (KT66 option). Without putting them in to double check, I recall that Tungsols are likely the cleanest, most open and linear of the new KT66, the Gold Lion probably the darkest/warmest, and the Valve Art sort of in between...each having their own personality (and being highly influenced by the rest of the tubes used).

The 5AR4/GZ34 types are interesting. Compared to 5U4G-ST types, generally, they tend to be more dynamic, tighter bass, more clear and defined, more focused...doing this musically if they fit in with the rest....the combination likely coming off as more detailed and defined in your experiments. The Sovteks are attempts at old Mullards I think, and a pretty nice tube. If you get seduced further by it, you will pay much more, but also get more refinement in every aspect from NOS Phillips/Mullard types, expensive because they are so well liked. But there are deals that come up now and then, especially with off brand labels and/or if they are a little used.

I use Phillips/Mullard GZ32 types, a very similar sound, but a bit less powerful than a GZ34, so tending to more open, less big/dynamic, less deep and dark, less obvious. Not better or worse, but a nice choice for fine-tuning if the general GZ tube qualities are what works, but GZ34 tend to be a little strong. I loved RCA 5U4G-STs for years, but finally this GZ32 type has become a standard here. There are a bunch of variations of that basic Euro type too, all sounding a little different....Then there are American designated 5V4Gs, pretty close equivalents, but having a discernible difference in feel from the GZ32s, and each of them also sounding different. I find these can be quite good in the right company too, and much less expensive in general, but not generally as sophisticated in balance and refinement to me. Also, in my system, they tend to be a little less linear...often (though not always) a bit more open on top, and a bit darker/denser below in the general balance.

But if the balance of the Sovtek GZ34 works, the GZ32 or 5V4Gs could be too open/lean, and/or a little lacking in punch and power.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/30/17 at 17:49:31 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
mark58
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 4389
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #122 - 03/30/17 at 18:04:06
 
Hey Will, after thinking the Amperex white label 7308 was my input tube of choice, I have changed my mind after purchasing three pairs of NOS 1962 USA Amperex White Label PQ 6922s.  I think it's that they are a little less detailed or have a less prominent high end...a little more mellow?  Also the Bass seems a bit more dynamic and punchy than the 7308s. They are now in both the Torii MK IV and the Zen Mono Blocks.

Also have you seen my question in the ZP3 thread...i think you may know the answer.  http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1402147415/79#79

Thanks, Mark.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/30/17 at 18:15:28 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #123 - 03/30/17 at 18:52:07
 
Mark I wish I had information about those Amperex I could contribute.

Will, I have actually today done what I undid a month or so ago: put the Sylvania bottle-type 5U4G back in the Torii that I had taken out to replace with my trusty RCA 5V4G rectifiers. I noticed this weekend that one channel was about 15 percent "weaker" in sound than the other and traced it to the rectifiers. Though I have another pair of RCA 5V4G to pop in I thought I'd give the Sylvanias another time to shine and they are doing so, I think those English 75C1 have given them a nice face lift. Really enjoying the sound: lots of texture and detail but no harshness.

These Decware amps are like having a dozen amps in one!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #124 - 03/30/17 at 19:05:21
 
Hey Mark, I liked the early 60's white American PQs too last I checked. Different batches and all, but I think I recall them being quite similar, maybe a little cleaner, maybe and a bit less textural than normal American Amperex 7308s and 6922s, balanced a little toward bass, the combination changing the whole feel some...I felt like the detail was all there, but a little different balance and a little less "forceful" overall...subtler and refined. I am not home so can't double check. Does this sound right to you?

I liked both for different reasons, but as has been my pattern, I rarely use 6922 types in the Torii... They tend to be just a little too clean and powerful there for me. I use them most of the time in the CSP3 though, especially in the power section.

For a few years now, I seem to be caught by what appear to be early Siemens ECC88s (the ones I use most, late 50's/early 60's and labelled CBS and IEC/Mullard)...lower key than 6922/7308/E88CC/E188CC types, but nice extension and balance, neutral, mellow...with pretty rich fine detail character. This tube is variable also though. I have one pair labelled Siemens, and depending on the company it is with, it can get too bright/clean for me...more 6922-like in ways, with big bass and great power and articulation, and all this along with the ECC88 tendency toward inner spaciousness. Maybe Siemens kept "the best" for themselves, and I prefer the more complex character of the "2nd string"?

I will check the link you posted later if we have internet access next campsite.

EDIT: Mark, I checked your question about the 12AX7s, and sorry to say I have no real experience with that tube type.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/31/17 at 16:39:26 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #125 - 03/30/17 at 19:12:59
 
I agree Lon. I also find that 75C1 does wonders for refined friendliness without loss of fine detail and texture, creating even more Torii flexibility. I am using some late 40s Sylvania 5U4G-ST types in my MKIII at the moment, the ones with the wires running up between the plates...really refined and balanced/open tubes! I agree also, that with the flexibility of the Torii settings, and its many tube types, once we get  used to it, the possibilities for great mixing and matching of various tubes toward different flavors of beauty are amazing.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/30/17 at 19:20:11 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #126 - 03/30/17 at 21:27:53
 
I'm not sure if I have the same style rectifiers but I'm enjoying their sound. The 75C1 are definitely a nice change and helping my tube complements. I also installed a new jumper of silver wire between upper and lower sets speaker connections (one leg) on the HR-1s which are helping create a very nice sound, and then today I finally got the 36/10 Duelund resistors to run on the other side and replaced the Mundorf Supremes with them. The resulting sound is wonderful if just a tad bass-shy--previous experience with the other pair of Duelunds leads me to believe that will come in time.

The system now sounds like the best solid state I've ever heard WITH that fullness of note character that the best tubes bring. I'm hoping I can just leave things alone again. (How many times do I say that?) The Torii/HR-1 combo just keeps on revealing more and more ways to excellent sound. I hope they do for a few more decades!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #127 - 04/03/17 at 16:08:53
 
Well, I couldn't leave well enough alone. I was missing just a bit of bass and warmth and though the Duelund resisters may break in a bit more and deliver just that I put my other matched pair of old RCA 5V4G bottle type rectifiers in and there was that body that I was missing with attendant a bit of bass and warmth. So they'll stay in for these output tubes and when I switch out output tubes again I'll try the Sylvania 5U4 bottle-types--they may be perfect for the JJ6CA7.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #128 - 04/03/17 at 16:25:32
 
Interesting. I always really like the change-up from different rectifiers in the MKIV, but they tend not to last long. Back to GZ32 or 5V4Gs I go, being pretty ideal these days in my system/room. Even the 5V4Gs so far rarely last real long.

I think part of why the Sylvania 5U4G-ST are still in the MKIII is that I use it mainly for background music for healing work, and with Hytron OC3 and Tesla PCC88, it is beautifully open, textured, spacious, and articulate at low levels. I need to try some 5V4G or GZ32 there.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/03/17 at 16:31:10 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #129 - 04/03/17 at 16:27:49
 
I'll try GZ32s one day. 5V4s just seem to hit the right marks for my system. I'm trying not to roll tubes. . . but with these machines it's almost impossible to resist!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #130 - 04/03/17 at 16:32:48
 
Yes, I agree! I usually end up back in the same neighborhood these days after experimental forays! Fun to have "standards" that work, and fun to explore variations... Wink

I can see why the RCA 5V4G-ST has been good for you. I can't use it in my setting, but can hear how it could be just right in the right setting. Since you tend to end up back with it after playing other great choices, it is clearly doing the right things there! Balance is balance!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/03/17 at 16:37:41 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #131 - 04/19/17 at 03:42:55
 
so i've been enjoying this little experiment so much.  i've found all kinds of combinations that have reinvigorated my love for this amp!  anyway with the combo i've got in the amp now i'm hearing a substantial amount of line level noise.  it doesnt change when i increase or decrease the volume pot, but it's present in the silences.  is it possible it's the tube combo or is it something else entirely?  i'm using stock tubes with the excpetion of the 5ar4 cryo'd sovteks and the jj kt77's.  interested to hear your thoughts...
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #132 - 04/21/17 at 02:22:27
 
i'm starting to think it's the input tubes.  i'm currently using the tubes my amp shipped with. what are some other suggestion you guys might have??  what i'm noticing is that currently i can hear the noise floor.  is it possible to make that "white noise" go away?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/21/17 at 02:26:07 by roggae »  
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #133 - 04/21/17 at 04:08:52
 
I think the inputs are probably a good place to look, but if it is in both channels, that seems possible, but is weird for tubes in my experience...for two to go at once. If it is mainly in one channel, you can switch tubes side to side, one by one, to find out. If the noise moves, that's your tube.

I have had noisier rectifiers than others. If you have your original rectifiers, it could be good to trade them out with the sovteks just to see.

When power tubes have gone on me, they start distorting first, but these are early failures...I personally don't know what happens with too much age. I roll tubes too much for that so far!

Also, some power tubes are noisier than others. If you can't find it elsewhere, I would try the stock power tubes briefly too.

I guess you have looked at your cables, made sure the signal cables are distant from and cross the power cables rather than running with them, and signal cables away from noisy things, like power supplies.

If the noise is uniform, both channels, it could be a lot of things...Is it?

As to replacing input tubes, that would depend on what you want your sound to do...how you would like it to change?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/21/17 at 04:12:40 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #134 - 04/21/17 at 04:23:25
 
i'm going to have to do some cable rerouting first and foremost.  i like my sound as it stands but still wish i could get the bass a bit tighter.  using the stock inputs and OA3s.  rectifiers are the sovteks and the power tubes are the kt77s.  i tried my old gold lion kt 66s and the noise floor was still there and the bass was even flabbier than with the kt 77s.  the noise is on both inputs and it's constant.  not crackling like a tube going or a connection failing.  it's basically white noise.  my guess is its all the cables i've got in a pile or the input tubes.  what would you suggest for input tubes if you want tight bass and clean sound?  i'm looking to "clinical" up my amp sound as i've got a tube preamp as well.  thanks! Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #135 - 04/21/17 at 11:34:44
 
roggae,
For the bass tightening try some OB3 rather than input tubes is my suggestion, if you haven't yet. May not "tighten" per se but will change the presentation in that sort of direction. . . .
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/21/17 at 13:09:15 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1804
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #136 - 04/21/17 at 14:23:46
 
I agree with Lon's OB3 suggestion. In my experience with Toriis, flabby bass can be in part too much of it for your space. As I understand and hear it, OB3s will notch the power of the power tubes back a little, opening the sound and reducing bass intensity...really it will calm all the intensity...relaxing the overall density and push a little, giving more space across the spectrum. A good first step. I have never totally liked OA3s here, preferring OB3s.

Interesting the white noise, not hum...For inputs, if you don't hear any other problems, and like the sound, it may be good to see how far OB3s take you toward your ultimate sound before deciding on an input. Then, if you would like to take the opening and tightening further, a 7DJ8/PCC88 type would likely tighten bass some, and increase space, sense of articulation, and textures. They are all different though, as are all the 6922 types, and why I would not be inclined to recommend a specific one until you heard the OB3 change.

Another shift that would move this way in different sonic way is a nice GZ32 to replace the GZ34 Sovteks. Sovteks are pretty nice reproductions, but not in the same league as the much more expensive Mullard types they copy. Most Mullard/Phillips made GZ32s are in the same musical quality arena. Similar to OB3s, the slightly less powerful rectifier would open the sound of the whole...calming density enough to open the sound and tighten bass, and similar to the right 7DJ8, more texture as well.

Both the OB3 and GZ32 could also be taken a step further with OC3, and GZ30s.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/21/17 at 14:27:20 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; modified Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1; DIY Speaker Cables; feet - Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, Herbie's isocup
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #137 - 04/21/17 at 19:44:01
 
where does one find an OB 3 tube?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #138 - 04/21/17 at 19:48:41
 
I have bought several pairs from ebay.

I just used this search phrase: "OB3 pair 0B3" and several pairs of Sylvania appeared available at cheap prices.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #139 - 04/21/17 at 20:37:20
 
i have a pair of OA3a's - any help?  i'm really wondering if my input tubes are the source of the line level noise?  it's really quiet but if i get right up to the monitor i hear it.  maybe thats normal.  i dunno...

thanks forthe help guys!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #140 - 04/21/17 at 20:54:19
 
I don't have any pairs to spare right now or I'd send you some.

I'm not sure that the noise will be any different with OB3s but the bass presentation will be, it will be a bit lighter, tighter, quicker. I think the noise you are hearing is probably normal. I hear a little if I put my ear against the speaker. That doesn't at all interfere with me being head over heels in love with the sound I'm getting.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #141 - 04/22/17 at 05:05:43
 
right on.  thanks for the offer, Lon.  i'll look around.  what is the OB 3 exactly?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #142 - 04/22/17 at 11:36:38
 
0B3 is also known as a VR90, and like the 0A3 it is a voltage regulator tube and will regulate the voltage for the output tubes. Its effect on the tubes is to make them deliver sound with less bass impact compared to the 0A3 as Will mentions and as a result there seems to be less bass weight and drive. It may well give just the effect you wish if you are happy with your input tubes currently.

Here is a PDF about the Sylvania version (Sylvania made tons of these tubs, many times you will see more Sylvania available than other labels, and they probably made this type for other brands.)

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/0/0B3.pdf

I notice that tubedepot.com is selling 0B3 cheap:

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/0b3-vr90
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/22/17 at 11:37:21 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #143 - 04/22/17 at 17:05:05
 
Lon!  We think alike.  i bought some 0B3s from tubedepot and some OD3s.  Also bought some input tubes!  now, hopefully i'll be good for a while.  did you ever send off those tubes you'd planned for me to demo?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #144 - 04/22/17 at 17:36:35
 
Yes, I did. . . and they were returned to me. Looking at their history it never left my county. My post office here is weird. I'm going to resend, just holding off looking to see if there were others I might add to the package, I'm missing a box of tubes. . . if I can find it I'll probably add and resend, if not I'll just resend.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #145 - 04/23/17 at 15:49:41
 
right on, lon.  no biggie.  where are you located?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12285
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #146 - 04/23/17 at 16:23:52
 
Out in the country near Cleveland, Ohio.

I live in a township called Munson that has no post office, so my postal address is the county seat of Chardon, and I think we are step-children as far as the post office goes. They sent back a package of discs from Spain last month. . . they never left me a single notice and claimed they left three, and they never made an attempt to get a signature and I'm home at mail delivery time 95 percent of the time. Oh well.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #147 - 04/24/17 at 03:35:43
 
Ha!  i live in rural WI.  I know your struggle!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #148 - 04/27/17 at 20:49:20
 
second round of tubes came today: jj e88 cc's, raytheon ob3's, and rca 0d3's.  still trying to tame bass and get rid of this quiet white noise.  we shall see.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
roggae
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 139
Re: Torii MK4 - Tube Rolling and Some Observations
Reply #149 - 04/27/17 at 21:04:08
 
first impression with the 0b3's installed: the bass is generally less boomy.  everything else sounds good.  with the new input tubes i am hearing less of the white noise i was hearing.  perhaps this is what is often referred to as the "noise floor"?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 04/27/17 at 21:42:25 by roggae »  
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print