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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits (Read 11399 times)
hifitubes
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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
10/22/13 at 06:53:11
 
Has anyone used PS Audio regenerators to a benefit for Decware amps?

I'm overseas but have 110 on "camp", and looking at getting a Richard Gray Pro 400 for some filtering and isolation first.
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #1 - 10/22/13 at 07:42:33
 
I know Lon uses a couple of PS Audio components related to power, hopefully he'll chime in and give his opinions.  

The PerfectWave PowerBase looks pretty interesting to me, and depending on which Decware amps you use I think it's possible to put 2 components on one base.  It kind of kills to birds with one stone as it filters power and also has antivibration properties.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #2 - 10/22/13 at 12:00:21
 
h,

I have been using a Power Plant Premier for several years and I LOVE it. I read a lot about not plugging amps into power centers, but every time I unplug the Torii from this and listen for a day or so, I plug it back into the premier. In my previous home I had horrible power, and the Premier made a huge difference. I have better power now in my new place, but the Premier delivers its magic all the same.

I also use the PowerBases, and as Hans says they do kill two birds with one stone: isolation from vibrations and electrical isolation as well. I don't know how well they would operate without the Premier, but I bet well. I've been lucky to get mine all at a good discounted price.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #3 - 10/22/13 at 17:43:45
 
+1 on the PS Audio regenerators.  I used API Power Wedges to good effect for years on source components... results mixed with power amps unless the API Power Enhancers were also utilized.  When I auditioned a PS Power Plant Premier in my system - it was a revelation.  I consider them an "essential" component anymore.  About a year ago I upgraded to the new PS Perfect Wave P5 regenerator... I never A/B'd it with the old Premier... but it at least does everything sonically that the older model did, probably more.  Has lots of new useful functionality and is cosmetically much nicer.  If you can get a good buy on one - do not hesitate.  The older power plant premier's are known for becoming problematic as they age.  I can't tell you exactly what goes wrong in them, but your components transformers will start humming... like some DC is being dumped on the outputs of the power plant.  My old Premier did this and I had to send it in for repair.  Everything plugged into my P5 has remained dead silent so far - including my Decware Torii MK.III that I currently have and the SE34I.3 that I used to have... along with my Aesthetix Calypso, DAC, etc.
the performance of everything goes up when plugged into the power plant, more low level resolution, quieter backgrounds, more micro detail, clearer, cleaner, more "there" - there.
I have heard Steve discuss "power conditioners" before... what I heard was that "some" of the more costly ones actually provide benefits in his opinion, however a lot of them just produce a "difference" which in many cases is a step or two in the wrong direction away from clarity and dynamics.  I concur as I have heard this with my own ears as well.  I believe I read somewhere where Steve suggested a simple balanced power transformer for noisy power issues.  These can be obtained from companies like Tripplite for not too much $$$.  I have it on my todo list to try one of these sometime and see how it compares to the PS power plant I have... it would be a huge savings if the balanced power transformer produced the same sonic benefits as the PS regenerator does.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #4 - 10/22/13 at 18:21:43
 
Maddog,

I used the Tripplite transformers Steve recommended for years. NO comparison to the Premier, none whatsoever. I wouldn't bother personally.

I've had no trouble at all with my Premier, hope I don't! I can't live without it. Probably should be saving up for a P5.
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« Last Edit: 10/22/13 at 18:22:35 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #5 - 10/22/13 at 20:58:49
 
Another interesting product I've read about is the Shunyata PS8 Power Distributor ($695) that delivers up to 20Amps of continuous power.  When combined with the Shunyata Defender ($195) and Shunyata Venom High Current Power Cord ($295) you have a 8 outlet Power Distribution, Power Conditioning and Surge Protection for under $1200.
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« Last Edit: 10/22/13 at 21:00:05 by beowulf »  
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #6 - 10/22/13 at 21:51:07
 
these are "passive" devices... I would encourage one to try/listen to them of course, but being passive, all they can possibly due is "filter"... like the API Power Wedges I used to use do, which BTW do have balancing transformers on each set of isolated outlets.  They did/do have an effect... mostly a removal of grunge and overall smoothing effect.  I felt it beneficial on most sources, but they had a tendency to suck the life out of power amps unless used in conjunction with API's power enhancers.  I have tried other passive conditioners over the years also, Monster, Panamax, APC, etc.  Some actually made things sound worse in my opinion, at best they were similar to the API's effects.  But I've never heard anything do what the PS Regenerators do - not even close.  Their impact is not something subtle or something you have to listen to carefully over a period of time, going back-n-forth - it's immediate and pronounced.  But I haven't heard everything either, by any stretch of the imagination.  I think power conditioner products are second only to "wire"(IC's, speaker & power) when it comes to the proliferation of snake oil, fairy dust and voodoo science... but that's a whole nother topic....caveat emptor... be careful with your $$ here and absolutely "try before you buy".
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #7 - 10/23/13 at 07:01:47
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies!

I'm considering a P3 for my overseas system where I have 110v in my house on "camp" (like a base), surrounded by 240v lol. A little city running on 110v - not just my house literally.

I have a few issues here I hope the P3 will cure, rather than adding an isolation transformer, although those seem like a good option for current delivery. I have been considering a Richard Gray Pro 400 20A.

I currently own a cheaper, smaller 100w P100 AC regenerator which I can only use on my DACs as the MT and Rachel draw to much power and overload the transformer in the regenerator.

Right now, I don't have a dedicated line. But I do have a unique 20A circuit running direct to listening room from breaker - 3 outlets - so just some lights TV and HIFI.

My dishwasher was spitting a harsh buzz (like a monster ground loop) up to my tube amp. Turn off dishwasher and all is good. I re-grounded the dishwasher and it's very very very faint now when running.

In general, the power here is stable but iffy imo. A UPS will show pretty stable voltage so I'm not sure what the problem is? Surges? Light bulbs burn out all the time. When I returned from repat to the USA last year, my subwoofer had a blown cap, but no blown fuse. My neighbor just blew his MLs, and a BRAND NEW Classe preamp. And he had a 1K power strip.

My system consists of:

(2) DACs pulling 20-40 watts total
(1) 6w/ch Rachel EL34 tube amp pulls 70-90watts
(1) Mini Torii on the way
(1) 250w subwoofer with plate amp

I asked PS Audio:

Does the P3 isolate when doing its AC>DC>AC conversion? Or is my problem of bad shared ground ? going to let noise slip through and other means (dedicated line, grounding rod) are needed?

Quote:
"Unfortunately, the P3 does not offset DC coming back onto the line which the dishwasher could very well be doing.  Nor does it resolve any ground loops.

They do make cheater plugs that might work.  Contact Music Direct.  They may have a recommendation or solution if that’s the case."


So my plan was isolate but now I'm thinking of selling the small regenerator and buying P3 again, so I could run all my components on it, not sure! One of my friends uses:

Quote:
"One of the larger Signal DU-3, DU-5, or DU-7 will provide plenty of current for your amplifier. I just put a DU-3 on my amp this week, and it is doing some nice things to my soundstage already."
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« Last Edit: 10/23/13 at 07:10:25 by hifitubes »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #8 - 10/23/13 at 07:56:42
 
All I have now, that I'm isolating the PC from the DAC via Adnaco Optical USB system, is some hum.

I can't hear it listening position. It's a little tube rush and hum, but I do need to test again tonight with dishwasher since I have a new DAC.

I think if I go for anything, given my system is "low-powered" and tube-based, it would be a P3.

I guess I'm just worried about getting ti all the over here and I get poor performance or more noise.

These don't create any negative harmonics themselves do they? I was a little surprised at the response from PS Audio, I figured going AC>DC>AC would have to isolate.
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #9 - 10/24/13 at 00:52:08
 
I'm not sure if you're aware, but PS Audio is running a 30% off special for the month of October.  I think it's called the Clean Out Your Closet Sale wherein you can trade in an old peice of audio gear (cables, sources, etc.) to get 30% off.

Quote:
PS Audio Newsletter,
Components can be anything hanging out in your closet from any manufacturer at any cost.  Cables can be interconnects, speaker or power cables from any audio or cable company.  

To take advantage of this offer, which includes free shipping and our unconditional 30-day in-home trial period, call us or head to our webstore, choose whatever piece or pieces of PS Audio gear you wish to own, go to the checkout page of our website and enter the discount code CABLE if you are just sending us a cable, COMPONENT if you are only planning on sending a component or COMPONENTCABLE if you are sending us both.  

Depending on which discount code you enter, you will receive either a 10%, 20% or a 30% discount on your entire order.  We'll then ship your new gear to your door via FedEx and you have a full 30 days to try it out.  We'll also send you a RMA form and when you're ready, simply return your trade-ups using the RMA number.  It's simple, easy and a great opportunity.

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« Last Edit: 10/24/13 at 00:53:31 by beowulf »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #10 - 10/24/13 at 04:16:06
 
Ok, thanks, I have a lead on one for 1300 shipped.

Also, do transformers hum because of DC get dumped on the line?

Just noticed my Rachel amp is humming kind of loud. Not noticed that before.

Also hear a buzz from my Vega DAC ???
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #11 - 10/24/13 at 07:36:02
 
Does the Shunyata stuff help with DC in the line?
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #12 - 10/24/13 at 08:00:39
 
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« Last Edit: 10/24/13 at 10:44:38 by hifitubes »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #13 - 10/24/13 at 10:44:00
 
Of, so I can get:

Used like-new PS Audio P# for 1300 shipped.
Consonance D-Linear 15 Ultra Reference Power Conditioning System for $1650 shipped.
Richard Gray RPGC 400 PRo 20A for $425 shipped brand new
Maybe one of these outlets(vs. PS Audio, Teslaplex outlet, Maestro)

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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #14 - 10/25/13 at 22:36:57
 
don't know what to tell you hifitubes that hasn't already been said... you're just going to have to listen and decide for yourself with your own ears, in your own room, with your own system.  All the devices you mention here are "passive" except for the PS regenerators.  I have never heard a passive power conditioner yield what I perceive to be the improvements in sonics, that the PS regenerator does.  My experience has been that most of these products produce a "difference", i.e. have some kind of impact on the sound - sometimes a perceived improvement, sometimes not, sometimes just different.  The regenerators are the only ones that made me think OMG, holy cow, do you hear that!  The entire fidelity spectrum of my system was elevated.  I could not live without one in my system these days.  And this from the first note played via equipment plugged into them.  This impression/experience has held true for about 5 years now.  Nothing has unseated them yet in my system.  

Nobody here can tell you what to do - only relay our experiences.
Let us know what path you take and what you end up "hearing"....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #15 - 10/25/13 at 22:40:52
 

Maddog, reading what you said above - what would be a good bang for the buck regeneration setup for Mystery amp and Oppo BDP-105? Do I need to get separate units for each device?
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #16 - 10/26/13 at 00:29:14
 
LR...  I run my entire system off one PS Audio P5... the P5 shows that my Torii MK.3 pulls about 145 watts... all the time, idling or at full-song... typical of a Class A design...  My source components all together pull about another 100 watts.  So output power capacity of a single P5 being up around 1200 watts, my entire system being on a single P5 is not an issue.  I have never experienced my P5 getting more than barely warm, nor have I ever heard the fans come on.  So from the capacity perspective, one P5 is Okey Dokey.  I do have a dedicated 20 amp circuit going to it as well.

the PS PW regenerators, P10, P5 and P3 are not cheap IMO... I personally would find it hard to justify multiple ones in one single system.  But if you got the coin.. go for it and report back what you hear.  You might even ping McGowan about it and see what he says... he's pretty good about responding to email in my experience.

there are 4 isolated pairs of outlets on the P5.. so you can put your amp on one, your pre on one, your digital sources on one, and analog sources on one.  I have never heard anything but total utter silence from anything I've ever had plugged in to it.  With my Aesthetix pre, Wyred DAC and Torii amp... put your ear in the throat of my 97-98db sensitivity speakers and there is zero detectable hiss.... so it is my humble opin, that one P5 is sufficient - not to mention how the music "sounds" when played via components connected to it... which is our objective here....

if you skip the touch-screen interface of the P5 and don't care about its "network connectivity" capability and can get buy with a few less watts output power capacity - go for the P3 and save some green.

"IF" I was going to mess around with greater capacity, I think I would rather have two P5's than one P10.  Thought being to put one P5 on one dedicated circuit and the other P5 on a separate dedicated circuit.. with the idea here to be greater isolation, i.e. amp on one, sources/pre on the other.  As one P5 can supply about all the power available from a 20 amp, 115 volt A/C circuit.  So any amp designed to run on US 120 volt A/C should theoretically be able to be served by one P5.
However, I gotta tell ya... I think this would prove to be an exercise in futility, completely unnecessary and prove to make no detectable difference.  The only time it might make sense and be beneficial, is if you had inefficient speakers and giant arc-welder amps and actually needed the juice... I used to live in that world... for a few "decades".  I got enlightened a little over a year ago to the world of high-efficiency speakers and flea-watt amps... I won't be going back to my previous sonic existence any time in the foreseeable future......

Grin
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #17 - 10/26/13 at 01:25:10
 

Wow, thanks for that. Looks out of my Pay Grade - I'd rather buy some ERRx - but it looks like something I'd keep in the back of my mind if I ever get a bonus or something!

I guess I was hoping for something in the $1000 range.   Grin
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #18 - 10/28/13 at 16:00:31
 
LR - look for discounted P3's.... they are in your budget.  Exact same technology - slightly less output power than a P5 and no touch screen or network connectivity - both unnecessary things and nothing to do with SQ....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #19 - 10/28/13 at 18:36:19
 
I will do that. Mystery amp and Diffusers I'm building come first...then I'm seriously considering Regeneration. I completely understand the concept behind regeneration now that I've done some reading on it, and it sounds it's like the closest solution to running my gear off batteries...or maybe building a Faraday Cage around my gear rack. LOL

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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #20 - 10/28/13 at 19:24:40
 
Roger that... I just picked up eight diffuser kits at Decfest... another nice winter project putting these together..!!!  My winter schedule is already full.....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #21 - 10/28/13 at 20:20:31
 

I looked at those while I was there...the workmanship is excellent. I can't imagine they'd take much "putting together".

The ones I'm building will be...somewhat similar.  ;)

Except mine will probably be 12" deep, and 36" tall.  :o
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #22 - 10/28/13 at 20:53:22
 

they actually have to be taken apart and glued together.. they're just "friction fit" as provided.  Check out the instructions for assembly from the website.. more to it than one would think.  I'm sure it will get easier after doing a couple of them.  Then stain/finish, cover with grill coth, etc.
If you saw the stack of diffusors on the floor in the amp build room at Decfest - those were mine!  I loaded them up Sunday morning.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #23 - 10/29/13 at 03:14:12
 

You should consider staining before assembly. But then, if you're wrapping them in cloth, I guess it won't matter too much. It's just that stain doesn't work well through any glue smears/dribbles you might have.

Yeah, it was yours I was looking at. Great work done on them; which translates to easy assembly.
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #24 - 10/29/13 at 23:49:00
 
Yep... stain no worky over glue.  my audiophile anal tendencies are making me ponder the "reflectivity" of whatever coating I decide to use.  i.e. would a tight-surfaced high-gloss paint be better?, etc.  At a minimum the wood should be sealed in some fashion, even if covering with sonically transparent cloth of some kind…
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #25 - 10/30/13 at 14:41:53
 

I firmly believe that if the coating has a visual specularity, then it will have a sonic specularity. That said, you're covering the the devices in cloth which would filter out anything the clear coat would have reflected better. You'd only be sealing them up to protect from the elements at that point, and I honestly don't believe that's going to be necessary either. It's ply woods, which are typically dimensionaly stable unless really, really humid (e.g. downright soaked).

Also, I didn't clarify in my previous post, but I meant to say that staining before assembly will be *so* much easier, not only due to the glue factor, but because it's a PITA to get into those fins. My big diffusers on my back wall had to be done with a spray gun like you'd use to paint a car.

These were roughly built after the Decware ones - I bought the plans when they were first posted (and have since lost them). I built them using materials on hand, so the dimensions are slightly different.






My next sets are going to be HUGE!
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #26 - 10/30/13 at 15:13:05
 
Well done those diffusers look great.

JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #27 - 10/30/13 at 17:18:51
 
LR - those look great.  Maybe you should "go into biz"...?

well... these are "diffusors" so I want them to "reflect" sound, not absorb it....  my current room is practically an anechoic chamber anyway - over 15 ft from speakers to side walls and I can bring them out from rear wall about as far as I'd ever want.  Room is heavily damped naturally at this time – too dead at the moment actually.  However, my "room" is soon to be remodeled and I anticipate more liveliness to tame when finished.  My first thought for use of these diffusors right now, is to make them "mobile" and "adjustable" on stands, so I can play with positioning them around and between the speakers to see how it effects imaging and mapping of the soundstage.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #28 - 10/30/13 at 19:02:24
 

Being mobile is an awesome idea! Even thought I plan on making mine up to 1' deep and almost 3' wide X 3' tall, mine are going to mobile as well. I'm betting we'll learn a lot about placement and how it effects the sound. I look forward to hearing the lessons you learn from this!

Man, I wish I had a room that size - super jealous! The diffusers are going to have plenty of room to do their job! Steve's diffuser design is a compromise due to the short listening distance of most rooms, so he's made it as effective as it can be for those short distances. With the space you have, you could go 6"-12" deep on your diffusers and still get the full effect! (typically they say 1' distance per 1" of depth as a loose rule of thumb).  

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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #29 - 10/30/13 at 20:43:47
 
I'm close to buying a P3!

But I just pulled the trigger on a Signal DU-3 balanced transformer! Might pick up a DC blocker too.

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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #30 - 10/31/13 at 17:51:20
 
Emotiva has a device that is supposed to deal with DC also...
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx2
I have one and one of their CMX-6's also... I have never taken the time to A/B them to my PS P5... the Emo's are in use in a less critical setup.  But they certainly don't seem to be hurting anything either, as I have no noise or hum issues where I'm using them.... cheap enough to try...
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #31 - 11/01/13 at 14:41:02
 
The CMX-2 has the DC blocker, the 6 doesn't. I have one on order.

the Signal DU-3



http://www.signaltransformer.com/home/step-updown-power-isolation/

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #32 - 11/01/13 at 15:09:39
 
Question for you guys.  When I use my Torii I turn the volume up on my amp all the way.  There is an obvious audible buzz.  I turn it down till I don't hear it then adjust my volume on my CSP2+ pre to listening level.  Since my listening area (apt.) is small there is always plenty of volume.  My question is: Would a power regenerator such as PS audio P3 or other get rid of that buzz completely?  I currently have my amp plugged into a pretty crappy panamax power surge protector.

THanks

JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #33 - 11/01/13 at 15:23:45
 
One of those would help. . . . Depends what the source of the hum really is. If the hum is tube-based,, it won't likely be completely eliminated.

Most hums I've had in my system HAVE been traced back to tubes, 6N1P tubes have been pretty bad in that regard, for instance.  I've had more home from CSP2 and CSP2+ components due to tubes than the Torii itself.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #34 - 11/01/13 at 16:13:22
 
I thought it might be from the torii itself but it could definitely be the tubes as well also my power cords/interconnects are all pretty close together.  Is it safe to take tubes out when the amp is on to isolate the problem?  It didn't bother me till last night after a previous nights loud listening session to pulp's different class album (loudest I've ever listened to my system)

Thanks JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #35 - 11/01/13 at 16:57:32
 
No, you should only remove and install tubes with the power off.

Also, are your interconnects shielded and if not, see if you can route them away from the power cord. As the power inlet is on the top and the cord arcs away from the amp near where interconnects often cross an unshielded cord has given me hums before. . . .
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #36 - 11/01/13 at 19:44:41
 
JD...

I kid you not, I had a Panamax AC filter one time that actually "Caused" noise.  Try plugging your Torii Straight into the wall - bypassing the Panamax all together.

It sounds like you are in fact describing "noise" as opposed to a ground loop hum... which would be present at the same level all the time and not just appear when the volume is up.

If plugging your Torii straight into the wall has no impact on reducing the noise, then start swapping out your IC's and power cords one at a time and see if any of them are the culprit.  Then you can try swapping tubes - BUT ONLY WITH THE TORII TURNED OFF.  Never pull a tube while the amp is on....
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #37 - 11/05/13 at 09:55:18
 
Can anyone chime in on actual noise reduction with Decware gear?

I don't have my DC blocker here yet, and besides a humming/buzzing transformer, I have hum on speakers.

Not much mind you but given my dishwasher woes, I'm just not happy about the power.

It sounds like you guys with P3 and P5 are running dead quiet?
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #38 - 11/05/13 at 10:09:14
 
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #39 - 11/05/13 at 14:40:30
 
I've got a mini torii plugged into a PS Audio P3.  I have speaker hum and the P3 makes no difference at all in lowering it.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #40 - 11/05/13 at 17:18:56
 

seikosha,
  • is the hum actually coming from your speakers?  Or is it coming from a transformer of one of your components?
  • and if you have multi-driver speakers, which driver do you hear it the most prevalent in, the tweeter, mid, woofer, etc.
  • does the hum remain at a constant level regardless of the volume setting on your preamp.  Or does the hum increase and decrease with the movement of the volume control?

I used to have a PS Power Plant Premier which worked perfectly for years, and then the transformers of my components started humming when plugged in to the PPP... DC offset on the line is known to cause transformer buzzing/humming.  I sent my PPP in and had it repaired - buzzing transformer problem went away.
Not long after that I sold the PPP and purchased a PS Perfect Wave P5 and have had no humming transformers or noise in the speaker problems so far - about 18 months so far.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #41 - 11/05/13 at 17:25:20
 

OK, I've been reading and reading, and I've pretty much sold myself on getting a Power Plant - where is the best place to find one used/discounted/B-stock/Demo -whatever?? I'm hoping I can get a base model for around $1000. I don't need internet connectivity and all that - just the clean power for my Mystery amp and Oppo.


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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #42 - 11/05/13 at 17:44:16
 
maddog07

Hum is not from the transformer, it's the speakers.  The transformer itself is completely quiet.  The speakers are single driver Omegas.  The hum is constant and does not change with the volume.  It is the same if the volume is all the way up or all the way down.  If I disconnect the source input, the hum is still there.  If I disconnect the speaker cables, the hum goes away.  :-)  The level of the hum is exactly the same whether it is plugged into the P3 or the wall.

I've plugged a half a dozen other amps into the same system and the Mini Torii is the only one with the hum.  Everything else is completely quiet.

I'll have a chance to plug an SE84 into my system soon and I'll be curious about how quiet it is or is not compared to the Mini Torii.
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« Last Edit: 11/05/13 at 17:46:02 by seikosha »  

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #43 - 11/05/13 at 18:01:46
 
sounds like a tube issue in the mini-T to me.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #44 - 11/05/13 at 18:08:11
 
Tubes are the only thing I can hope for.  That said, the hum level is completely identical in the right and left channels and being dual mono, that would mean that Steve delivered the amp to me with two equally bad tubes which leads me to believe that the amp just has a natural level of hum to it.  What do you think...is it really possible that I got two bad tubes?  The amp is new.

I'm going to listen to another Mini Torii with the same speakers in the next month or two.  If that one doesn't hum as loud as mine, I'm sending mine in for a check up.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #45 - 11/05/13 at 19:11:18
 
Every tube amp I've ever used has had some slight hum inherent. I can't speak for all the Decware gear, but both Zen amps I'm quite intimate with have that little bit of hum...though my original SE84-A was noticeably quieter after Steve modded it, it's still there. I think many people call it the natural tube swish of the electrons flowing.  

I know there are some circuits where you can dump that hum (into ground?), but I have a feeling you lose something when doing that, so I can't imagine Steve making use of those designs.

Omegas being as sensitive as they are, I'm sure the hum seems to stand out more. Once music is playing, you shouldn't be able to hear it at all.
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« Last Edit: 11/05/13 at 19:12:07 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #46 - 11/06/13 at 00:11:42
 
Quote:
Lonely Raven said,
OK, I've been reading and reading, and I've pretty much sold myself on getting a Power Plant - where is the best place to find one used/discounted/B-stock/Demo -whatever?? I'm hoping I can get a base model for around $1000. I don't need internet connectivity and all that - just the clean power for my Mystery amp and Oppo.


They sell B-Stock directly from their website and also Music Direct.  PS Audio is all the time holding sales that make it worth your while, so subscribe to their newsletter and they will let you know when they come up.

________________________

I've been reading about the Active Power Regeneration vs Passive Filter debate and I can't tell which one is the better route to go.  Two of the top manufacturers of each type of device is PS Audio with their active regeneration and Shunyata with their passive filter style on the other end of the spectrum.

I was reading from another forum where a person asked PS Audio's Paul McGowan about Shunyata and how Shunyata's Hydra products differ from PS Audio's Power Plants (the active regenerator vs the passive filter debate)

Quote:
McGowan said,
The Shunyata is a good sounding device but it really doesn't address the problems that are inherent in power - dynamic and long term voltage regulation, high impedance and clipped peaks that prevent your Meridian, Sooloos, Oppo and TV from giving you all they have to offer.

A P10 fixes those problems and what I would imagine you'll hear is a reasonably dramatic improvement in soundstage width and depth coupled with an openness you didn't have before.


In response to McGowan (on another forum) somebody asked Shunyata's Caelin Gabriel why they should choose Shunyata's products over PS Audio's and ...

Quote:
Gabriel said,
Good questions and to the point. You didn't shy from asking a tough question and I respect that so you will get a straight answer. When I talk about regenerators I talk about them in general and not specific to a single manufacturer. Also I will use US voltages when discussing this for simplicity.

Regenerators have some appealing advantages. The most important would be its ability to regulate voltage. This is a legitimate and valuable feature if you live in a third-world country or region where the power quality is unreliable. You will notice however that the regenerators have operational limits for their own operation. Usually the range of operation for the regenerator is not much different than the range of operation for your audio components. This is usually 90-125VAC. Many audio components sound best when operated at their peak voltage range which is around 117-120 volts. Advantage to the regenerator.

In most countries the power service is very reliable regarding the maintenance of voltage level, frequency and phase. In our research, we have found that THD and other low frequency power line distortion is not audible in an audio system. High frequency noise, RFI and EMI however do have an audible effect on perceived system performance. Both regenerator and passive designs can reduce high frequency noise. Advantage to both.

Regenerators have some very serious disadvantages. Since they are essentially a high-current amplifier internally, they are subject to the same limitations as any amplifier. Imagine what would happen to reliability of your 1000 watt amplifier if you ran a sinewave through it at 70-80% of maximum power for days and weeks at a time. First you are going to generate a lot of heat and heat is what kills solid state components. So reliability is a very real problem for regenerators. Disadvantage to the regenerator.

Since a regenerator is an amplifier it has limits on how much current it can deliver to the load over time. No regenerator is 100% efficient so some of the energy from the power line is consumed and lost by the regenerator. High end audio systems consume massive amounts of current. Current is what drives your system. Current is what is important. When the voltage sine wave in your home is flat topped this means that either the wiring in the wall or the power transformer feeding your house is maxed out in its ability to deliver peak current. The voltage falls because there is not enough current reserve in the power system not because the voltage level needs to be adjusted. Now you introduce a power regenerator into the circuit which consumes more of the current that you already didn't have enough of in the first place. So what did you accomplish? As an aside: if flat topped waveforms are such a problem why do some of these regenerators have "alternate" waveforms which is essentially flat topping the waveform? Curious. And if THD is a problem then changing the waveform from a sinewave increases harmonic distortion. Curious again.

Several years ago, we purchased and hold the patent to the best power regeneration technology. It was created by Michael Vice in collaboration with Jack Bybee. If we believed that the best way to power an audio system was through regeneration then the HYDRA would be a regenerator. If and when the inherent problems with regeneration can be resolved we will introduce a regeneration type product. Until then, we believe that HYDRA technology is superior in reliability and performance for high-end audio systems.

Do your homework. Why do so many high-end audio manufacturers and PRO audio studios use HYDRAs? How many of the same use regenerators? And finally try a HYDRA and a regenerator in your own system. As a matter of fact don't use a HYDRA for the comparison - borrow our least expensive power distributor VENOM PS8 for the comparison.

cg


How do you guys feel what Gabriel said in response to McGowan?  Gabriel seems pretty confident ... even putting Shunyata's least expensive Venom PS8 power distributor up in comparison to PS Audio's top of the line P10 active renerator.

If you're living in an area that has good power (generally speaking) I can't see the need for regeneration ~ especially if it's on the same line as other components in effect competing for the same current that is the limiting factor in the first place.  Now I could definitely see regeneration benefits in an area where there is very poor current.


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« Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 04:21:01 by beowulf »  
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #47 - 11/06/13 at 07:58:13
 
In my case, I decided to pick up a P3. I feel like you can do the "Shunyata" side of things with balanced power or other filtration. To me AC benefits seem unique. We'll see.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #48 - 11/06/13 at 15:31:06
 
I stumbled into a great deal on the Trip Lite IS1000HG (Hospital Grade) this morning. So this will be my interim step till I can afford the Power Plant (after the Mystery Amp). So I hope to have the Trip Lite in my system within a week or two!

This is the Hospital Grade version of the Isolation Transformer that Steve used at Decfest. It's not the stealthy black, but it's supposed to have better outlets, better shielding, and doesn't hum like the standard line is prone to.

So eventually, I'll be able to compare the Trip Lite Lab Grade Line Conditioner, Trip Lite Hospital Grade Isolation Transformer, and Power Plant P3.

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« Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 15:37:05 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #49 - 11/07/13 at 06:12:25
 
It could be cables too - do you have spares to swap around?  If that doesn't do it, I would contact the man himself Mr. Deckert.  He's extremely helpful In my experience.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #50 - 11/10/13 at 22:13:21
 
Here`s an interesting piece on mains.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/The-MCRU-Shop/The-Mains-Supply.html#

It doesn`t name names but the long game reccomends regeneration.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #51 - 11/11/13 at 15:58:47
 
As usual... listen with your own ears, and preferably in your own room with your own equipment... after all, hearing is a "perception"... if you think you hear something - then you do.  And on the contrary, if you think you don't hear it - then you don't.  And only each individual can make this determination for themselves...

* But I "like" what I hear, when I plug my equipment into a "regenerator".  
YMMV...

Smiley
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #52 - 11/14/13 at 20:19:37
 

I'm doing some research on improving the power distribution in my home in prep of the MA showing up in the near future, and I came across this:

http://www.ground1.com/whitepaper1.htm


I'm not sure how to measure this stuff inexpensively, but I'm going to see if it's possible.

One easy fix I'm going to look into, it making sure I have a proper 8' copper ground rod, and I'm going to add a second one 16' away, in a lower part of the yard that's always damp. That should lower my ground resistance considerably and improve my home's ground.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #53 - 11/14/13 at 20:52:06
 
be careful what you do there LR without consulting a competent licensed electrician... when I ran new dedicated circuits for my listening room... I thought I wanted, and that it would be a good idea, to put these receptacles on their own ground rod - no can do... violating code - everything in a given breaker panel has to be grounded to the same earth ground.  Now if you are talking about running a heavy copper wire from your existing ground bar to an additional one... that might be different.  
On further thought on the manner, having two separate earth grounds for circuits originating from the same breaker panel but not all ran to the same ground... might have the potential to create one gigantic ground loop for your entire house!!!!  I don't know... electricity can be a strange animal... be sure to validate your plan of attack with a competent electrician before you leap off this cliff.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #54 - 11/14/13 at 21:11:58
 
Just remember, PS Audio is not the only Horse in this race...even with their periodic discounts. Click on that 1st link and the world is your oyster..... .  Joe & Robert Stein at the CableCo are great dudes to work with..... .

Post #292 in Mystery Amp thread....for LR:
If you can't find one cheap/used (PS Audio P3).....buy from the CableCo at an 11.5% discount....returnable for one of equal or greater value at this discount. Plus, plenty others to choose from!  

Check it out:

http://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/Power-Line-Products
then go to what you will actually pay....... . I have loved their cable demo program!
....and of course with this many power regen's to try....I should be able to find one for my SE84CS & CKC.    

I will continue to use my Adcom AC-Enhancer 515 with Hubbell XLO Pro Power Cord to the Mystery Amp.

....my timeline: Kimber Select 3035, Mystery Amplifier, Kef R900 Speakers auditioned in Listening Room....and Legacy Signature SE's.....and Acoustic Zen Adagio's....late Winter.   -Stone

.....but I am curious to try this....
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Tesla-Powercell-6-SE
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Save--300-on-the-Synergistic-Research-Powercel....
Try the Powercell 4 or Powercell 6 with (and without for reference) the Element Tungsten AC cable through our Cable Library to hear what a top flight line filtration system can do for your sound!
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #55 - 11/14/13 at 22:08:26
 

You are absolutely correct about having two ground rods could cause a giant ground loop.

I'm talking about verifying the one I have is good, maybe upgrading the bonded line to it, then adding a second one 16' away bonded to the first. There is apparently also a type of clay that can be added around the ground rod that will help lower the resistance to ground improving the system overall.

I've done my research!  ;)

Ground1 was a great resource...answered a bunch of questions I had, that the three licensed electricians were clueless about. They could quote the NEC, but couldn't relate to how to make the system better for my needs.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #56 - 11/15/13 at 14:54:18
 
I've tried several power treatment schemes, including the TrippLite products, and I can honestly say that the best sound I got was by plugging all my components directly into the outlet...

If you have more than two components, install a four plug box... Separate the bridges between outlets, and star-wire each individually to the mains wires... That is, four whites connected to the white feed wire, four blacks to the feed wire... Of course, there would only be two grounds to connect to the feed ground wire, plus a jumper to any metal box...

There are special bonding connectors if a wire nut won't do it...

Then get some good [but bot too expensive] AC cables for your components, and you're good to go...

I use stock Naim EIC type AC cables... About 40 bucks each...

Now, maybe a high-end AC conditioner might give some improvement in some areas... But it's often a zero-sum game: gains in one respect being offset by losses is another... (m.)
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #57 - 11/15/13 at 18:11:15
 
STAR GROUNDING....thanks Mark.

I am going to do this = easy.

I first learned of Star Grounding at the Minnesota Audio Society. We had Keith Herron in of Herron Audio...and he showed us his star grounding he uses in his equipment and he did a little portable CD Player....and it improved the little shit box that it was!    -S
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #58 - 11/16/13 at 07:02:34
 
Any good links? I thought it just meant literally grounding everything to one point...

What about adding a copper rod that also goes to ground? Like in IT racks in data closets?
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #59 - 12/10/13 at 04:52:15
 
I've got the P3 here and sure enough I started noticing my Rachel tranny was buzzing much less, if at all.

The P3 would make a LOUD buzzing at times like the torroid was being nailed.

I asked PS Audio again about DC current, and this time Paul said that up to 100mv of DC is blocked be the P3. Earlier, I was emphatically told be another rep. that it did not.

So I still have the Emotiva CMX-2 on the way, but now will think more about how to integrate it. Rather than possibly limit current of the P3, by inserting the CMX2 between the wall and P3, I may add it to the P3 and give something like the DAC + TT some extra protection.

We'll see....so far so good.

I don't have my Tortuga LDR here yet but things are sounding very nice so far with my Vega DAC. More testing to come...
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #60 - 12/10/13 at 08:44:21
 
I'm not sure if I missed this in this thread (as it's been a while since I read the whole thing), but what about having a licensed electrician install a dedicated line to your audio system?

From what I understand, the costs could even be cheaper than a lot of the top power conditioners out there.  A dedicated line should improve both the safety and sonic output of your A/V gear.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #61 - 12/10/13 at 11:45:18
 
I have a faux dedicated line in my house. 20A breaker going right to my room. Even after checking ground and neutral at box, I still get DC, which results in P3 buzzing and filtering. Maybe I need to move all other appliances or the same leg as my 20A circuit.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #62 - 12/10/13 at 20:34:36
 
Quote:
I'm not sure if I missed this in this thread (as it's been a while since I read the whole thing), but what about having a licensed electrician install a dedicated line to your audio system?

From what I understand, the costs could even be cheaper than a lot of the top power conditioners out there.  A dedicated line should improve both the safety and sonic output of your A/V gear.


This depends on what the issues are that your line is having. It will *help* if something noisy is on the same circuit as your audio gear, but that same "dedicated" circuit goes back to the same panel with all the rest of the noisy circuits in the house.

Line conditioners and other gear both filter out some of that noise, and protect your gear from surges, something a dedicated line doesn't do.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #63 - 12/31/13 at 01:06:47
 
Just got this from PS Audio - I still have my heart set on a P5 or P10 for my shared Home Theater/Two Channel setup.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

New MultiWave available
Beginning January 1, 2014, all P5 and P10 Power Plants shipped from the factory will have a new version of MultiWave installed called Variable MultiWave.  This new MultiWave feature has six positions of strength and the user can select which one works best for them.

This is a major feature upgrade for the Power Plants and helps connected equipment sound their best by adjusting the strength of the sine wave's timing.  If you'd like to find out more details on how this works and what it does, we've prepared a special page you can go to here.

http://www.psaudio.com/support/multiwave-firmware-update/


And the best news?  We're offering to upgrade any P5 or P10 Power Plant for free.  This can happen by you going to this page and downloading the file, loading it onto an SD card and following the instructions.  Or, you can go here and purchase a preprogrammed SD card if you're in the States.  I wish we could sell these outside the US but we haven't figured out an easy way to do this.  For those outside the US, you can simply download the files or contact your dealer for help.

http://www.psaudio.com/shop/variable-multiwave-firmware-update/

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #64 - 12/31/13 at 09:34:07
 
Anybody check out the Balanced Power Technologies stuff?  Their Ultra Isolators look pretty interesting.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #65 - 12/31/13 at 15:46:53
 

Wow, the specs read like they really did that no-holds-barred.

For that price, I'm wondering if you shouldn't be looking into regeneration instead. There are open box P5 for about that much, and for $2990 open box P10.

IMHO - the iso-transformer needs to be massive to keep from starving the amp - I don't see the weight listed on that Ultra-Iso, but judging from the shopping list of features and options, I'm betting it's properly weighty.

The advantage of good Regeneration is that they can handle current peaks better, assuming they are designed to have big storage capabilities.

I really wish I could demo more power gear...there are so many concepts that all make sense on paper, but I want to see who really pulls it off...and honestly, if our Decware amps really even need 70 Amp peak current draw for transients!

Sorry, rambling again. Great product specs make me think out loud.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #66 - 12/31/13 at 21:54:02
 
Even their Pure Power Center power distributor is a GREAT deal if you need to expand - the PPC @ only $299 gives the Shunyata PS8 @ $695 a serious run for the money for less than half the cost.  Although the Shunyata looks cooler, the chasis on the PPC is pure copper so I would say it is technically superior in that regard.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #67 - 12/31/13 at 22:01:16
 
Quote:
LR said,
IMHO - the iso-transformer needs to be massive to keep from starving the amp - I don't see the weight listed on that Ultra-Iso, but judging from the shopping list of features and options, I'm betting it's properly weighty.


From the picture it looks pretty massive ...
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #68 - 12/31/13 at 23:27:02
 

That made me giggle like a little girl - that's awesome! LOL

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #69 - 01/01/14 at 02:21:49
 
Quote:
LR said,
For that price, I'm wondering if you shouldn't be looking into regeneration instead. There are open box P5 for about that much, and for $2990 open box P10.

The advantage of good Regeneration is that they can handle current peaks better, assuming they are designed to have big storage capabilities.


I'm not entirely convinced of Regeneration over Passive Filtration.  I think Caelin Gabriel makes a strong argument against it compared to McGowan's reasons for it.  Interestingly Gabriel's reasoning against regeneration is McGowan's reasoning for it. Grin

It also seems that there are more passive designs on the market compared to regeneration although that may be because of the associated costs of producing regeneration devices?

I'm thinking that ... how bad the power is in your area could be an important factor of which device to choose.

From what I'm understanding by reading Gabriel's comments is that - When you flat top the sine wave voltage in your home - it has more to do with either the wiring in the wall or the power transformer feeding your house is maxed out in its ability to deliver peak current. The voltage falls because there is not enough current reserve in the power system not because the voltage level needs to be adjusted.  

My thoughts right now is that the ZMA is a super powered muscle car and when you add a rengenerator on your line it's acting in a sense like an amp which is also drawing current so it is actually in competition with your other devices (i.e your ZMA) ~ I wouldn't want to starve it.  I don't know if this would be that big a problem with a little flea watt amp - but from the looks of it the ZMA is a beast.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #70 - 01/01/14 at 03:33:26
 
I think there are always more than one way to skin a power circuit. And I can say that I have not felt in any way that my Torii Mk III is held back by my Power Plant Premier drawing all it wants from the wall. After all, the Premier just hoses that down and squeagies the grunge off it and then dishes it up piping hot to the Torii. It may draw a lot but it's not at all stingy about paying it forward.

There have been times when I think "Why do I have the Torii plugged in here, it has its own cleansing system?" and I plug the Torii into the wall and squirm a few days and plug it back in. Straight into the wall the Torii is brighter, zippier, pushier and not in the best ways. Plug the Torii back into the Premier and it opens up and steps back. Just right, as if a daiphonous gauze has fallen and an ease rolls out. I always prefer that Torii to the one that dances straight off the wall.

But ever since Steve mentioned isolation transformers I've been working on the power coming into the Torii and other components and the journey has been very rewarding. I've had several really satisfying configurations, but this current one just seems like Goldilock's porridge for me.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #71 - 01/01/14 at 06:35:44
 


Lonely Raven,

      I couldn't find in the specs of the ZMA any max current draw for the amp. I wouldn't think with the size of the capacitors you would need to worry to much about that that is what they are designed to do. My McIntosh amps capacitors are about twice the size of those on the mystery amp. Before I sent it back to be refurbished during heavy bass passages the lights on the circuit with it would dim with every beat of the kick drum. They replaced the two large capacitors and some other parts that needed replaced and now it will motor right through those bass passages without even causing the lights to dim or flicker. The amp is near 40 years old so it will be a long time before I will need to worry about new capacitors again hopefully. The old ones were pretty much done. I think with a new properly working amp you wouldn't need any thing close to 70 amps peak with the way Steve has designed it. It would be interesting to know what the gauge of wire is in the power cord to the mystery amp what ever the load is it will not exceed the rating of the wire. As long as your power supply has a steady current output you should be good to go!



Cool



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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #72 - 01/01/14 at 17:35:58
 

Some more interesting info.

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/bluehorizon/1.html


I have some more learning to do, but I'm developing some of my own thoughts on Isolation vs Regeneration - right now regeneration makes the most sense to me as I believe it does some things that Isolation simply can't. That said, the article I posted above puts a dent in the P10 that I'm aiming for.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #73 - 01/03/14 at 17:19:49
 
@ LR - that defintely look like a cool device ... a little pricey though.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #74 - 01/03/14 at 17:42:23
 

Yeah, I can't even find one available - but the point of the article was that they tested it on the P10, and the P10, while providing perfect sine-wave, wasn't taking care of the radio stations and noise. You would think a $5000 device would handle that.

I've not yet reached out to Paul of PS Audio and asked him what he thought about the the P10 in the article. For all I know they have addressed this issue since then.

IMHO, a "perfect" device, would:

Have enough capacity to handle a decent sized amp, and modern sources without A/C crosstalk between devices.

Regenerate power providing a perfect sine wave 120v 60hz

Filter any extraneous noise, radio stations, and DC from the line.

Provide some sort of well of instantaneous current for big amps to draw from during dynamic passages.  

The P10 sounds like it might do all this, but I need more info.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #75 - 01/05/14 at 01:06:02
 
I have a Cullen modded AC outlet feeding an Emotiva CMX-2 DC blocker feeding a PS Audio P3 (which also blocks some DC current) and I can still hear a buzz when my dishwasher is on. I can hear the P3 tranny buzz pretty loud at times especially when dishwasher is on.

I also have a small bit of hum but might be amp design tradeoff because it is a low-level and quiet, especially compared to some other SS amps I have tried here.

Maybe Neutral is contaminated? I don't think a cheater plug on the amp fixes the buzz.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #76 - 01/18/14 at 12:33:08
 
I have a PS audio PP10 and my Torii 3 sound fantastic plugged into it. Definitely a benefit.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #77 - 02/08/14 at 18:02:39
 

I've received my PS Audio P10 yesterday.

I had an awful sinking feeling when I first plugged it in and powered everything up. It sounded terrible. Everything sounded itchy like listening to medium resolution MP3. But within a couple hours everything started sounded back to normal.

I've got about 125 hours on the Zen Mystery Amp, and about 5 hours on the P10 - the sound is now noticeably different, but I'm not 100% sold on it  being better yet. I played some albums that I know really well, that have simply sounded amazing and engaging since getting the ZMA, and now...they sound very....digital. Yes, Tori Amos' Bosendorfer sounded tighter and the bass sounded better - some of the sound was a bit more 3D maybe - "more live" I guess (like Paul from PS Audio says), but the music is somehow less engaging.

I also *still* have a buzz coming through the speakers. Originally, this buzz seemed to be coming from the unshielded interconnects. I verified this by disconnecting each cable one by one till I narrowed it down the ICs; the noise was coming through the ICs even with then the ICs *weren't* connected to anything but the amp! So they were antenna picking up noise. To resolve this I rearranged all the equipment, and rerouted all the power and ICs and HDMI as far away from each other as possible. This solved the ICs picking up noise like antenna, but I have a different buzz now, which I believe I've narrowed down to noise coming from the Home Theater PC via the HDMI *and* the power cord. Plugging in either one causes the amp to pick up and amplify noticeable noise - even with the PC plugged into the P10 Power Plant.

I'm going to continue burning in the P10, and I'm going to see if there is a way I can move the PC to another part of the house, and maybe transmit the HDMI signal over CAT6 to the system. I think getting the HTPC out of here and giving the P10 more time, I should arrive at the "game changer" level people keep telling me the P10 should be.

A couple comments about the P10 - It's sleek and well built, it seems to do it's job well according to the built in Scope (I have my own lab Oscilloscope, but I'm not sure how to use it yet so I can't veirfy). My power is always high about 125v, and apparently has 7.8-7.9% noise. The P10 is dropping that to a perfect 120v @ 0.5%. I'm using about 4.1A and 41% load with ZMA, Oppo-BDP 105, HTPC, and 1080p Projector plugged in. I still have my subwoofer plugged directly into the wall (and powered off for now), but I may run the sub via the P10 at low levels to tax the P10 and break it in a bit faster.


So overall, still a work in progress. Need to move the PC to deal with buzz, and break in the P10 a bunch more. I'll also do the with/without A/B test after a bit to "see what I'm missing" as that may help reveal with the P10 is really doing. As of now, I'm not sure P10 is earning it's keep, but I will follow up on this later.

Edit to add: I do notice the P10 cleaning up my video slightly - I have a feeling this would be awesome used exclusively in my Home Theater - I'm hoping it warms up a bit for the Two Channel setup.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #78 - 02/08/14 at 18:14:57
 
Interesting. I'm certain you'll like this as it breaks in more. I noticed an IMMEDIATE benefit with my system. I had old wiring and noisey power. And I was using the isoltation transformers that Steve liked and they were adding noise. My PPP cuts the line distortion down to about .3 most of the time. And my video was improved by more than a little, I'd say 10 percent or more.

It's possible with those huge caps the ZMA is going to be influenced by this less than the Mk III. Your other components should be digging it. Plus the ZMA is new. Removing it in a week or so will show you what it's doing I'm sure. Looking forward to your findings.
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« Last Edit: 02/08/14 at 18:16:18 by Lon »  

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #79 - 02/08/14 at 18:45:37
 

Yeah, Steve did say he felt the Power Regenerators weren't necessary with the big caps, so I was thinking that is probably why the P10 isn't wowing me with a change. Again, the ZMA is really just an amazing piece of kit.

Also, I noticed I had to dial the bias back up a bit - which is something Paul mentioned could happen. I'm betting the transformers are running even cooler now as well, I'll measure in a bit. (the ZMA runs way cool in general because it's so efficient)

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #80 - 02/08/14 at 18:56:34
 

Power Transformers are about 4-5 degrees cooler according to my IR thermometer. Output Transformers are the same.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #81 - 02/08/14 at 19:13:55
 
Well, cooler isn't bad. I think you'll like it more when broken in, took a few weeks for my PPP to be all it could be IIRC. Your other components besides the ZMA should be improved. My digital front ends have all really benefited from the PPP.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #82 - 02/09/14 at 17:47:15
 
You mention buzz still occurring...maybe through power cord.

Get a long extension cord and try the P10 on what looks to be a separate power leg/phase.

I happened to have a 3phase WYE here and moving it to B from A solved my buzz. Direct Current blockers didn't fix it. The P3 blocks some DC according to PS Audio support, and I also had an Emotiva CMX-2 in the chain.

I had the electrician move the dedicated circuit to another breaker, like I said, and all set!

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #83 - 02/10/14 at 02:05:41
 

I've got 3 dedicated ground 20Amp circuits going to my setup, one for 2000 watt subwoofer, one for Home Theater Amp, and one for ZMA and Oppo. I've tried a mix of all three, and I get even worse noise when I try to put some of the gear one a different circuit from the new P10.

I played with moving cables and trying to narrow down the issue more. I get definitely get a buzz coming through the speakers when the HDMI from the HTPC is connected to the Oppo. But, the worse part is, as soon as I plug the Oppo into *any* power, I get that same buzz again. If I try it on one of the other circuits, the buzz is actually increased considerably.

I think there is a weird ground loop somewhere. and switching to a different circuit simply make the ground loop bigger by going back to the circuit breaker panel then looping back to the equipment. So different circuits aren't helping.

I'll have to poke at it some more...but now it's seeming like the Oppo is the central source of the noise, not the HTPC (though the HTPC was a source of *some* noise, it can easily be remedied by streaming over CAT6 rather than over HDMI)
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #84 - 02/10/14 at 04:45:29
 
Interesting. I think when I had my Oppo years ago I had some ground loop issues with it. To clarify, I was thinking you should try to move the power source, keeping things connected to P10, to test other circuits. I have a dedicated run too, but it was on a bad power leg. But it seems like it's the Oppo so try grounding it's chassis to something. If you ask Oppo about its grounding scheme I am sure you will get an answer.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #85 - 02/11/14 at 00:07:02
 
Quote:
I've got 3 dedicated ground 20Amp circuits going to my setup, one for 2000 watt subwoofer, one for Home Theater Amp, and one for ZMA and Oppo. I've tried a mix of all three, and I get even worse noise when I try to put some of the gear one a different circuit from the new P10.

I played with moving cables and trying to narrow down the issue more. I get definitely get a buzz coming through the speakers when the HDMI from the HTPC is connected to the Oppo. But, the worse part is, as soon as I plug the Oppo into *any* power, I get that same buzz again. If I try it on one of the other circuits, the buzz is actually increased considerably.

I think there is a weird ground loop somewhere. and switching to a different circuit simply make the ground loop bigger by going back to the circuit breaker panel then looping back to the equipment. So different circuits aren't helping.

I'll have to poke at it some more...but now it's seeming like the Oppo is the central source of the noise, not the HTPC (though the HTPC was a source of *some* noise, it can easily be remedied by streaming over CAT6 rather than over HDMI)


LR, when you have completely separate power circuits connected to separate audio components in the same system the chances of ground loops (AC hum) are increased. In your case each of your 3 separate circuits will obviously have their own three conductors Hot, Ground & Earth Ground. First thing to check is that all three circuits have the correct polarity Hot & Ground leads on all three circuits need to be wired to the correct prongs at your wall outlets. If you don't have one pick up a polarity tester at Lowes, it simply plugs into the outlet and gives you indications via LED's if the polarity is correct.

I will assume you have good quality wall sockets that have a good grip on all three prongs of any cord plugged into them. I've seen 50 year old homes with sockets that were completely worn out and could barely hold a cord in place.

Once outlet polarity for all three circuits has been confirmed then we move on to the Earth Ground. Current typically enters your component via the Hot prong and leaves via the Ground prong. The third wire Earth Ground acts as a Safety should the Hot lead short to the chassis of any component. Rather than shocking you when you touch the chassis current flows to Earth Ground via the Earth Ground Lead which typically trips the circuit breaker rendering the short harmless.

Most would assume the Earth Grounds (one each on each separate circuit) would all have Zero volts on them and in a perfect world they would. You can check this with an inexpensive Digital Volt Meter from Radio Shack. Set the meter for "AC Volts". Set the range for something like "20 Volt Range". This should allow you to read 20.00 volts down to 00.01 volts. Touch one test lead from the meter to the Earth Ground on one circuit and Touch the other test lead from the meter to Earth Ground on another circuit (try combinations of all three circuits). You are hoping to see 00.00 volts in each case but may actually get something from a few tenths to a couple Volts.

So lets assume you have 3 components (component A, B & C) each connected to a separate power circuit. Lets say the Earth Ground on component A has 1.00 Volt AC on it while the Earth Grounds on components B & C are at 0.00 Volts. Typically the chassis of each audio component would be connected directly to Earth Ground.

So what we end up with is the chassis of component A at 1.00 Volt and the chassis of components B & C at 0.00 volts. Voltage is like water pressure, water flows from High pressure to Low pressure. Current flows from High voltage to Low voltage. So the 1.00 volt in the chassis of component A will try to find a way to the 0.00 Volts in chassis B & C and typically that is via speaker cables, interconnects, HDMI cables etc. that connect the three audio components in this example. The result is AC Hum.

You can also use your Digital Volt Meter to check for Voltage potential between each component Chassis in your system. If you touch one test lead to the chassis of Component A and the other test lead to the chassis of component B and get any Voltage reading then you have a ground loop. Could be that of your Three separate power circuits (power circuits A, B & C) One of the circuits has the cleanest path to Earth Ground (least resistance). If for example Earth Ground on circuit A is at 0.00 Volts, circuit B at 0.12 Volts and Circuit C at 1.02 Volts then voltage from any component plugged into Circuits B & C will want to flow to the component plugged into Circuit A.

So what do we do. Probably the easiest test would be to connect each piece of gear one at a time to One Power Circuit. This way no matter which circuit you choose each piece of equipment will see the exact same Earth Ground. Even if you choose Circuit C at 1.02 Volts in the above example the ground loop is eliminated. In this case the chassis of each component would be at exactly 1.02 Volts. So if you touch one lead of your Digital Volt Meter to one component and the other lead to another component the reading will be 0.00 Volts. The voltage differential between the two components is 0.00 Volts which means there will be no current flow between the two. It's current flow that causes the Hum and without a voltage differential there is no current flow just as if there is no water pressure there is no water flow. If you have a water hose with 1.02 pounds of pressure at each end there will be no flow of water.

If connecting everything to the same circuit eliminates the AC Hum then I think this would confirm that the Earth Ground on one or more of your 3 separate power circuits has what is called a higher potential to Earth Ground than the others. This is not uncommon and for a number of reasons that we don't have time to discuss here.

You mentioned possibly Lifting the Earth Ground on the Oppo. Lifting the Earth Ground means basically disconnecting the connection from the Oppo chassis to Earth Ground at the wall outlet. This is a bit of a Shot In The Dark and even if it reduces your Hum it may not eliminate it. Not to mention it eliminates the safety feature mentioned earlier.

I had a similar issue once where I was forced to use a separate circuit for a remotely located sub. In that case I had my main audio system connected to a Tripp Lite surge suppressor with metal case and the sub connected to a second Tripp Lite. I ended up connecting a separate ground wire to the metal case of one suppressor and running it under the carpet to the metal case of the other. Since the metal cases of each suppressor were wired to Earth Ground via the wall socket this in effect provided every component access to the Earth Ground with the least resistance to Earth Ground.  In this case I suspected current was feeding back from the sub through the line level connection to my Oppo. Attaching a separate wire between the two surge suppressors created an alternative path to earth ground and solved the problem.

So in the end if you use Multiple Power Circuits to power a single audio system it is not uncommon that one circuit will have a more direct path to Earth Ground than the Others. Current follows the path of least resistance and if that means it has to go through speaker cables or interconnects to get there it will.

Sorry this is such a long post LR but ground loops are not necessarily simple to understand or resolve. Hope this gives you some ideas to try when you get back to it.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #86 - 02/11/14 at 00:59:50
 
DBC,

Thanks for your detailed explanation of ground loops! I appreciate it.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #87 - 02/11/14 at 05:49:08
 
I will say that you still need to investigate the grounding scheme for your particular components.

How do you ground the chassis of a Decware amp when it is a floating transformer and ground/signal - is referenced to ground.

Some amps just hum, no matter what. As Steve will ask, can you hear it from the sweet spot?
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #88 - 02/11/14 at 17:40:00
 
I have a minor hum. It is the Amp. I disconnected all/the 3 front end components and it still comes through via just the Amp on to Speakers.

So, as hifitubes said it best: "Some amps just hum, no matter what. As Steve will ask, can you hear it from the sweet spot"?

Their is nothing wrong with the ZMA. The topology of this Amp is going to lend itself towards a ground loop issue. However, the fidelity supersedes the issue for me. Meaning, the fidelity that comes through displaces the loop issue. I guess if it is like finger nails on a chalk board at your Listening chair position...then try to minimize it. However, you will never completely eliminate it with this Amp/ZMA. I would like to be proved wrong though?! Keep us posted LR.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #89 - 02/11/14 at 17:44:11
 
DBC, thanks for that awesome writeup.

I knew most of that already and have already worked out most of those possible issues (except I've not measured the differences between circuits).

See, when I had different pieces of equipment on different circuits, I *didn't* have any ground loop noise. It wasn't until I added that Mystery amp that I started having issues. I was hoping the PS Audio P10 would help resolve this, but apparently not.

Right now, I've got -

Oppo, plugged into port A on P10
Mystery Amp plugged into port H (high current) on P10
P10 plugged into dedicated ground, 20 amp circuit with lab grade Hubble plug. *nothing* else is on this circuit.

Oppo is connected to Mystery via Silver Reference RCA Interconnects.
Mystery is connected to speakers via my version of Zen Styx.

That's It Nothing else connected, no CAT5, no external drives, no other gear on the P10 - that's it.

If ICs are plugged between ZMA and Oppo, I get buzz, even if the Oppo is *not* plugged into the P10

I've eliminated as much as I can - this narrows it down to the Oppo and ZMA - with and without the P10.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to redo the example above when I get home - just to make sure I didn't forget to unplug anything.

I'm really running out of ideas - except to maybe set everything up elsewhere in the house as a test, or eliminate the P10 (which I think I tried but I don't recall), I'll retry different power cords and different interconnects. Maybe something in the chain is slightly damaged and causing a partial short or something, I don't know at this point.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, yes, you can absolutely hear the buzz from the seating position, and no it's not the amp - the ZMA is dead quiet until I put my ear within 6" of the speaker then you hear that natural tube swish that is completely inaudible away from the speakers. In fact, when I get my measurement mic setup, I'll measure the db of the noise - it's got to be 4db difference, which to me is a lot.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #90 - 02/12/14 at 00:41:46
 
Quote:
If ICs are plugged between ZMA and Oppo, I get buzz, even if the Oppo is *not* plugged into the P10

I've eliminated as much as I can - this narrows it down to the Oppo and ZMA - with and without the P10.


LR: Do you have an old CD Player or Bluray Player you can hook up in place of the Oppo for test purposes. Seems like if the Oppo and say a CD player were to cause the same Buzz then we are back to the ZMA?

I would expect the chassis of your P10 to be connected to Earth Ground at you power outlet. You might check for any voltage reading between the ZMA chassis and the chassis of your P10. There should not be any if the ZMA chassis is grounded to the P10 via the ZMA power cord as we would expect.

If you do get a voltage reading between the two then try attaching a simple test lead with alligator clips on each end. One clip on a chassis screw at the ZMA and one clip on a chassis screw at the P10 (this simply acts as an alternate path to earth ground). Over the years in sorting out ground loops I have had voltage readings between components of as much as 2.00 volts and as little as 0.02 volts cause AC Hum.

Also check for any voltage differential between ZMA and the Oppo. Also try attaching a test lead between Oppo chassis and ZMA chassis as well as Oppo chassis to P10 chassis. If we have Voltage in a chassis then we want to provide an alternate path to earth ground other that the interconnects.

If you have nothing connected to the Oppo, power plug is unplugged, no input connections from other source devices (cable box etc.) and you attach interconnects between the 2-channel audio output from the Oppo to the 2-channel audio input on your ZMA and you have a Buzz???

Then I would have to think somehow there is a loop Out through one of the ZMA audio inputs through the Oppo and back into the other ZMA audio input?

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #91 - 02/12/14 at 02:40:45
 
Quote:
LR: Do you have an old CD Player or Bluray Player you can hook up in place of the Oppo for test purposes. Seems like if the Oppo and say a CD player were to cause the same Buzz then we are back to the ZMA?


Yeah, that was my next test. I have an old copper chassis Denon I picked up in my early days with the 2 watt Zen Amp, it's been relegated to garage duty - damn thing weighs in at 30# or so so it doesn't get moved often. I'm going to drag that up next and see what happens.

Quote:
If you have nothing connected to the Oppo, power plug is unplugged, no input connections from other source devices (cable box etc.) and you attach interconnects between the 2-channel audio output from the Oppo to the 2-channel audio input on your ZMA and you have a Buzz???

Then I would have to think somehow there is a loop Out through one of the ZMA audio inputs through the Oppo and back into the other ZMA audio input?


My thoughts exactly, that would make me think there is a fault in one of the two devices - or possibly my interconnects.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #92 - 02/12/14 at 04:30:46
 
This is my problem too, AS YOU GUYS (DBC & LR) HAVE STATED**. I put my SE84CS back in.....and wah la!........no ground loop. So, have you tried just putting your C+ back in as the only variable change LR?

Anyway, it's not IC's or Speaker cable picking it up by evidence of the SE84CS being fine.

The good news is...Steve will make it right. Possibly the first or secondary winding of the Tranny's OR AC leakage....DC issue in the ZMA. Will get to see the solution LR, with your ZMA and with your close proximity a couple times a week from work = quick turnaround...and then I'll get mine on the road back to Decware!

Obviously, the ground loop caused by the ZMA is unacceptable and dangerous to our Speaker's and Equipment....plain annoying too!
So, in regards to my reply #88...mine is a little more than just a hum=ground loop...and my evidence (once again), of the SE84CS being clean = ZMA is the culprit.

Furthermore, I see Lonely Raven and I as Beta Tester's....which is just fine. Also, if you go to the Mystery Amp Thread, ...go back a few pages...I am currently running a 7 amp fuse instead of a 5 amp fuse. My ZMA would blow the 5 & 6 amp fuses consistently. However, with the first time initial start up/turn on, it ran for 12.5 hours off the 5 amp fuse that came in it.

Maybe I have an issue from shipping damage, for both the fuse issue and the ground loop issue...I have. The fuse could be due to the cold in shipping and I need to try backing the ZMA down from a 6 amp fuse first, then to 5 amp fuse.

HAVING SAID THIS: I am committed to this AMP/ZMA...now at 105 hours...even with an issue(s) I/we/Decware will find a solution to...the FIDELITY OF THIS AMP IS ENGROSSING TO SAY THE LEAST.  I MIGHT DRIVE IT TO PEORIA MYSELF...SO IT DOES NOT LEAVE MY SIGHT.
Hyperbole, not at all....it is that good. I have auditioned and have had some of the best Tube & Solid State through my Listening Room (and recently-I must add)....I want my ZMA!



YOU GUYS STATED**:
"If you have nothing connected to the Oppo, power plug is unplugged, no input connections from other source devices (cable box etc.) and you attach interconnects between the 2-channel audio output from the Oppo to the 2-channel audio input on your ZMA and you have a Buzz???

Then I would have to think somehow there is a loop Out through one of the ZMA audio inputs through the Oppo and back into the other ZMA audio input?


My thoughts exactly, that would make me think there is a fault in one of the two devices - or possibly my interconnects".
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« Last Edit: 02/12/14 at 06:02:13 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #93 - 02/12/14 at 16:55:21
 

If I'm reading you right Stone, you're having the same buzz issue I am?

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #94 - 02/12/14 at 17:26:40
 
Has anyone contacted Steve about this? I'm sure he'll want to know of any user issues before he sends out more ZMAs.  I have some skin in this game being in the ZMA "winding transformer" build stage.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #95 - 02/12/14 at 17:27:32
 
Yes, audible from the Listening Chair/Buzz.    

Did you have the chance to get your Denon CD Player in or your Zen modded Amp (C+...I think you said it is)?

I have narrowed it down to the ZMA, as I stated above. Pretty darn sure anyway.   -S
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #96 - 02/12/14 at 17:43:22
 
Quote:
LR wrote: I knew most of that already and have already worked out most of those possible issues (except I've not measured the differences between circuits).


LR: Check for any Voltage potential between Earth Grounds while the system is powered up and current is flowing.

In my case I use 3 separate wall outlets. My Oppo and Super Zen are connected to a Tripp Lite isolation transformer that is plugged into the first wall outlet. My Left Sub and Mid Bass Module are plugged into a Monster Surge Protector / Isolator that is plugged into the second wall outlet. My Right Sub and Mid Bass Module are plugged into a Monster Surge Protector / Isolator that is plugged into the third wall outlet.

My Monster Surge Protectors and Tripp Lite isolation transformer all have metal chassis that are connected directly to Earth Ground via their respective 3-prong power cords. So in my case with the system powered up I simply check for Voltage potential between any of the 3 power source device chassis.

If you find any voltage potential between power source devices then most times just connecting all three chassis together using alligator clip test leads provides everything access to the Earth Ground with lowest potential to ground.

So instead of current trying to get to the Earth Ground of lowest potential through your audio cables it now has an alternate path via the power cord of each audio component to the power source device it is connected to and to the Earth Ground of lowest potential via the test leads connecting the chassis of all 3 power source devices.

Having said all that you may not have an Earth Ground or Ground Loop Issue. But going through the process will rule that out for sure.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #97 - 02/12/14 at 21:24:18
 
Quote:
Yes, audible from the Listening Chair/Buzz.    

Did you have the chance to get your Denon CD Player in or your Zen modded Amp (C+...I think you said it is)?

I have narrowed it down to the ZMA, as I stated above. Pretty darn sure anyway.   -S


No, after my 3 hour drive home from work last night, I listened to some DSD files quietly for an hour, then went to bed.

I hope to make time for some testing tonight. I've already done what Steve suggested in the ZMA thread - I'm going to repeat all my tests as best as I can, starting from the speaker back as Steve suggested (which I've already done) and see what happens.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #98 - 02/12/14 at 21:55:28
 
I hate to have to say this, but there are no issues with the ZMA, and no differences between the ZMA or any of our amplifiers with respect to ground loops.  The earth ground at the IEC connector is bonded to the metal chassis and the audio ground of the amplifier is also connected to earth ground.  This can be verified by taking an ohm meter and testing between the ground lug of the IEC connector and the metal chassis and then again from the earth ground at the IEC connector to the outside part of any RCA jack.  And finally, from the outside part of the RCA jack to the metal chassis.  All three points will read as far below 1 ohm as your meter's cables are capable of reading (usually 0.4 ohms +/- 0.3 ohms)

DBC's suggested tests are recommended.

Another comment I'd like to make is that hum or noise from an amplifier has nothing to do with clean or dirty power. The two are completely separated from each other.  

Dirty power causes the sound to become dry, grainy, less dimensional, somewhat flat, but it does not cause noise or hum issues unless there is a problem with house wiring, such as a bad neutral or ground rod.


The first ZMA enjoyed months in my private system with zero noise, followed by a week of continued use during Decfest with a variety of sources and speakers with zero noise and 85 witnesses. The second ZMA also was (and I'm sure is) noise free. The way to find out is very simple... just unplug your source components and remove all interconnects from the ZMA and turn it on. If there isn't any noise, then you know it's not the amp itself causing your grief.

I haven't been following this lengthy thread so I've only read the last few posts, but it seems both ZMA's are being used with OPPO which is connected to a TV via HDMI. If the TV is connected to cable there are certainly some opportunities for ground loops. Make sure if a cable is connected to your TV or TV box, that you are using a 75 ohm isolation transformer on the incoming cable itself to decouple the grounds from your TV and the Cable coming into the house.

And I realize people probably don't want to call me unless they have no other choice, but today is the first I knew of the buzz issues you guys are having.  

I've just spent two wonderful nights with the next ZMA and it too has no noise issues and is in the shipping department with my full faith that it has no design issues or noise problems whatsoever.

Hopefully this is encouraging and not discouraging.

Steve  



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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #99 - 02/12/14 at 22:01:45
 
Steve Deckert wrote on 02/12/14 at 21:55:28:
Dirty power causes the sound to become dry, grainy, less dimensional, somewhat flat, but it does not cause noise or hum issues unless there is a problem with house wiring, such as a bad neutral or ground rod.


That's been my experience as well.

I hope LR and stone get this all resolved!
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #100 - 02/13/14 at 14:51:34
 

I was exhausted from work, but still spent a couple hours on this last night. Looks like I was right about there being two different buzzes going on, which is what was making this so difficult to suss out.

I repeated all the tests I did before, which was the same thing Steve suggested; starting from the speakers back.

The buzz goes up and down with the volume knob. The ZMA itself is dead quiet - everything starts when connecting outside devices.

Buzz #1, Interconnects acting like antenna - this was the buzz I was getting even with the Oppo unplugged. Since I rearrange my system over the weekend, this buzz has been minimized. It's still there, but I refuse to go to shielded ICs because they sound flatter, like they lose some air. (at least with the ones I have available to me)

Buzz #2, The Oppo. *nothing* plugged into the Oppo except ICs - I get a little of the antenna buzz mentioned above - as soon as I plug in power, I get a heavier buzz that's clearly apparent from the seating position. Again, *nothing* plugged into the Oppo except the ZMA.

If I plug in my old Denon CD player, I only get Buzz #1. It sounds really good on the ZMA by the way, softer and more forgiving than the Oppo.

If I plug my SE84A Zen Amp in place of the ZMA, connected to Oppo or Denon, I only get Buzz #1

Buzz #2 only happens with ZMA and Oppo combo.

I've tried different power cords (factory shielded, DIY unshielded, cheap computer grade, heavily shielded off my Cisco routers). No change to above issues.

I tried plugging both the ZMA and Oppo directly into the same wall outlet - Same buzz issue, with the added bonus of gaining transformer buzz. Tried both devices connected to my Trip Lite isolation transformer, and I was rewarded with the Trip Lite having some nasty transformer buzz, plus the #1 and #2 buzz above.

Again, as I've said before, the ZMA is dead quiet on it's own. The only thing I can figure is that the Oppo has an issue, or is causing an issue when mixed with the ZMA - I'm sort of at a loss for what to do now. Sending Oppo another E-mail to see what they suggest.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #101 - 02/13/14 at 14:54:11
 
Dang! You really have gone the distance on this one. Hope Oppo has something to try. . . .
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #102 - 02/13/14 at 16:12:53
 
Well, I really want this resolved - I wish I better understood what was going on (electrically) that was causing the buzz. Plus, Steve seemed pretty miffed above. LOL So I wanted to do my due diligence.

On the plus side, this has basically proven that the P10 does what they say it does. The balanced power did get rid of the transformer buzz I had with the little Zen amp, the transformers run cooler, and it's really starting to sharpen the music up.

If I can just resolve this last buzz issue I think I'd be *very* happy with the system.

I have an Audio Play Date (as Brianne calls it) with Palomino this weekend. I'm going to bring my gear over to his audio temple and see if we can replicate the issues; plus I'm wanting to put my Oppo up against his little DAC and see what's what. It should be a very revealing event.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #103 - 02/13/14 at 18:05:30
 
Quote:
LR Wrote:  I wish I better understood what was going on (electrically) that was causing the buzz.


LR, just because you have not solved the problem this does not mean you are not making progress. If you want to quantify what's going on you are going to have to get your hands on a decent Digital Volt Meter and Test Leads with alligator clips on on each end. Both can be had for not a lot at Radio Shack.

"Buzz #2" definitely sounds like AC Current flowing between the ZMA and Oppo via the interconnects when the ZMA & Oppo are plugged in. Remove the interconnects between the two devices and power both devices up. Using your Digital Volt Meter set at say a range of 20 Volts AC touch one meter lead to the ZMA chassis and the other to the Oppo Chassis. If you read a voltage then you have a voltage potential between the two. Now to solve that problem.

Try attaching one end of a test lead to the Oppo chassis and the other end to the ZMA chassis (typically I attach the alligator clips to an unpainted chassis screw). Now check for any Voltage potential between the two devices again with your Digital Volt Meter. There should not be any voltage differential since the test lead between the two device chassis will in effect tie the earth grounds of each together. If this is the case then try installing the interconnects to see if Buzz #2 still exists.

If you do this and report back your finding then I can help you with the next steps.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #104 - 02/13/14 at 18:56:46
 
Yes, the temple awaits.  Incense will be burning.  Please bring your own finger cymbals.

I'm running my Rachael's as mono blocks right now so that the shock of Zen-zilla entering the temple will not be too extreme.

We'll see if we can re-create/eliminate the hum switching out our gear and have some fun putting my DIY speakers and over achieving DAC against your 944/oppo combo.

And now that I think I have the bass in my room tamed and focused I want to feel the ZMA pop me in the chest.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #105 - 02/13/14 at 20:56:37
 
DBC - Thanks!

I do have a nice Fluke, and I tried to measure potential (both DC and AC) between the two pieces...but I totally forgot I needed to disconnect the ICs before doing that. I got no meaningful readings.

I'll do this again tonight and report back. Thanks for your suggestions!

Edit to add: Also, I did notice one odd thing - while I was behind the stereo rack, swapping ICs; I had the interconnects in my right hand, plugged into only the ZMA, and I bumped into one of the power transformers bell with my left hand, and heard a loud buzz through the speakers. I figured, I must have just given some of the noise a path through my hand to the ICs - no big deal - touch the Power Transformer nothing. Huh, Touch both Output transformers Nothing, Touch the other Power Transfomer BZZZZZZZZZ.

So for some reason, only one of the PTs was causing a buzz when I touched it. I have no idea if that has anything to do with anything, but thought I'd mention it.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #106 - 02/17/14 at 03:33:16
 
LR, could you cover the Tranny's with something, or at least the one in question, that seems to be making the airborne connection...this would stop/block the noise transfer/connection?

How did things go with Zen-zilla at Palomino's & your Oppo/buzz?
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« Last Edit: 02/17/14 at 03:39:46 by stone_of_tone »  

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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #107 - 02/17/14 at 13:34:57
 
I'll let Raven comment on or buzz investigations but we had a good session overall.  He basically brought his whole rig and we tried various combinations with mine.

We started by introducing the P10 (monster!) to my rig.  The effects were immediate and profound. Most noticeable was the improvement to the bass.  I have done a lot of work over the past couple weeks introducing bass traps in all four corners and the bass has really firmed up.   This took it up another significant notch.  Nothing subtle about it.

Overall soundstage was also sigificantly improved as was the definition around all the instruments.  Raven explained it well in an example where he pointed out you could hear and feel the bow resonating on the strings on the violin.

We also did some tests with my triplite isolation transformer.  I have heard both positive and negative comments about this unit and wanted to see how the waveform looked on the P10, so we ran it between the wall socket and the P10.  It amplifies the voltage about 3 volts and had a similar THD, perhaps a bit higher than straight out of the wall.  The waveform looked a little uglier though, more ragged on the back end of the sine wave versus the front end of the sine wave distortion straight out of the wall.

Still after Raven left, I did some A/B with the triplite and I still prefer it in my system.  However, I am now scheming to figure out how to at least get a P3.   I don't know about regeneration vs flittering, but I certainly heard the effects of regeneration.  It is indeed a "wow" difference.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #108 - 02/17/14 at 14:36:06
 
I'm glad you heard a "wow" difference. I just have the lowly Power Plant Premier (though it suits my needs entirely) and I won't do without it. For me (maybe it was my 1932 house wiring and city power of the time) the Tripplites added more noise (PPP verified this) than they did good and I really relaxed once I replaced them with the PPP.

I just have the PS Audio Dectet in my second system, it does a good job, introduces less noise and hash than the Tripplites, but doesn't regenerate. One day I'll probably upgrade that Dectet to a regenerator if the money "holds."
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #109 - 02/17/14 at 16:43:16
 

I posted this in the Mystery Amp thread - the difference on Palomino's Rachel with the P10 was like 25% improvement, HUGE. With the ZMA, I'd say it's only 5% improvement - those big ass caps really make a difference!

When I got home, I put my little Zen amp on the P10, and it was like a bought a new amp...which is funny, because I haven't plugged in the Zen amp since the ZMA showed up. LOL

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #110 - 02/17/14 at 16:43:35
 
Tell me more about the PPP. Maybe there is a thread already.  It's more within my means right now.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #111 - 02/17/14 at 17:02:08
 
Here's the product page (It has not been produced for s few years):

http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/power-plant-premier/

For what it's worth here is what Stereophile says about the PPP:

http://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/ps_audio_power_plant_premier_ac_...

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« Last Edit: 02/17/14 at 18:06:38 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #112 - 02/18/14 at 00:02:59
 
Guys, I want to add my two cents here, as I have owned a couple PS Audio regenerators and think highly of them overall. It seems to have come up more than a few times that the PPP has some issues now and then. Mine certainly did and I sold it. It would click now and then at night for no apparent reason. I sent it back to PSA and they 'fixed' it. It continued with the problem and I figured that it was just where I lived or something. After selling it I read on the PSA forum that there quite a few people having the same problem. Not to say that all odf them had this issue, but I do see a lot of them for sale over the years. It's too bad because for the most part mine worked great. That is just my experience. Now, I still believe in the company, and bought a used P300. It is really great and has the muti-wave II+ installed. I wouldn't go without it. I installed a fan inside it and even made a stand for it. Again the idea makes a lot of sense and is readily audible.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #113 - 02/18/14 at 00:07:07
 
I've heard of this problem too. Must say I've never had one lick or one click of a problem with mine.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #114 - 02/18/14 at 00:15:58
 
 In that case, you are golden my friend. That's all I wanted too, but it became a circus that I never intended to buy a ticket to.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #115 - 02/18/14 at 07:34:25
 
As far as the P3 (750 va) vs P5 (1250 va) vs P10 (1500 va) ... how do you know which product you need?  Do you add up all your audio products somehow to determine what you need exactly?

I realize that buying a P10 would have someone completely covered since it's their highest level product, but what about the other units, etc. in comparison to what one's needs are?
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #116 - 02/18/14 at 13:00:21
 
I am running everything off a 250v triplite now.  I don't need much.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #117 - 02/18/14 at 14:01:51
 
You would be absolutely fine with the PPP, plenty of headroom.

I run my Torri Mk III, my Rega with upgraded power supply, an SACD player, a Blu-ray player, my PWD Mk II and PWT, my DVR, two CSP2+ and a ZP3 on my PPP. With no strain, no pinch on dynamics, etc. And without a glitch from day one.
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« Last Edit: 02/18/14 at 14:04:37 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #118 - 02/18/14 at 14:10:44
 
I have only the Rachael, a iPod digital transport and occasionally a turntable.   My current DAC runs off a battery.  The Mac mini is currently on a different circuit.

I was wondering if a P300 would do for a short term solution??
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #119 - 02/18/14 at 14:15:27
 
You could, but imo the PPP sounds about three times better than the P300. (I have one of those, used it for years til it crapped out, never have tried to repair it, I think it's just the power switch went out.)

For the price of a used PPP I'd say just hold off til one of those arrives.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #120 - 02/18/14 at 14:17:16
 
Thanks.

I've seen them for about $1K.  I'll keep watching.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #121 - 02/19/14 at 02:27:45
 
Quote:
Posted by: beowulf

I realize that buying a P10 would have someone completely covered since it's their highest level product, but what about the other units, etc. in comparison to what one's needs are?



I have a P5 for a small system. I could not afford a P10, and this was before the P3 came out. Some, including PS Audio, say the P10 sounds the best because of the increase in magnetics. I think there is a you tube video where they showed the difference in size of the internals.

A P10 is on my wish list to replace an older P500 power plant that I have.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #122 - 02/19/14 at 05:45:07
 
Quote:
busterfree said,

I have a P5 for a small system. I could not afford a P10, and this was before the P3 came out. Some, including PS Audio, say the P10 sounds the best because of the increase in magnetics. I think there is a you tube video where they showed the difference in size of the internals.

A P10 is on my wish list to replace an older P500 power plant that I have.


Wish list is correct! There's always something to entice us towards that darn P10 Grin
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« Last Edit: 02/19/14 at 05:46:50 by beowulf »  
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #123 - 02/19/14 at 06:39:54
 
Here is the link to the video. You can see the inside of power plants @ the 2:10 mark.

http://youtu.be/hNHkfhBa42g
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #124 - 02/19/14 at 15:50:47
 

I've watched that video so many times. Apparently Paul is also an artisan bread maker as well as audiophile, so it makes me smile when he compares audio to bread.

I wish they had more videos...even the ones showing their ineptitude with room treatments was interesting.  :)
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #125 - 02/19/14 at 18:40:06
 
Ac has fascinated me from the first time that I stuck a butter knife into a wall outlet...the subsequent experiences were less by comparison. Having said that, AC is rife with possibilities, and PS Audio was one of the pioneers in going beyond the passive filtering that became more and more a predator by the way of ignorance from the audio nuts. No doubt most things have their place, even lies, but it is our job to investigate the facts before purchase. In the end, our beliefs,however naive or sophisticated, do not change the truth.
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