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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits (Read 10609 times)
Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #45 - 11/05/13 at 19:11:18
 
Every tube amp I've ever used has had some slight hum inherent. I can't speak for all the Decware gear, but both Zen amps I'm quite intimate with have that little bit of hum...though my original SE84-A was noticeably quieter after Steve modded it, it's still there. I think many people call it the natural tube swish of the electrons flowing.  

I know there are some circuits where you can dump that hum (into ground?), but I have a feeling you lose something when doing that, so I can't imagine Steve making use of those designs.

Omegas being as sensitive as they are, I'm sure the hum seems to stand out more. Once music is playing, you shouldn't be able to hear it at all.
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« Last Edit: 11/05/13 at 19:12:07 by Lonely Raven »  
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #46 - 11/06/13 at 00:11:42
 
Quote:
Lonely Raven said,
OK, I've been reading and reading, and I've pretty much sold myself on getting a Power Plant - where is the best place to find one used/discounted/B-stock/Demo -whatever?? I'm hoping I can get a base model for around $1000. I don't need internet connectivity and all that - just the clean power for my Mystery amp and Oppo.


They sell B-Stock directly from their website and also Music Direct.  PS Audio is all the time holding sales that make it worth your while, so subscribe to their newsletter and they will let you know when they come up.

________________________

I've been reading about the Active Power Regeneration vs Passive Filter debate and I can't tell which one is the better route to go.  Two of the top manufacturers of each type of device is PS Audio with their active regeneration and Shunyata with their passive filter style on the other end of the spectrum.

I was reading from another forum where a person asked PS Audio's Paul McGowan about Shunyata and how Shunyata's Hydra products differ from PS Audio's Power Plants (the active regenerator vs the passive filter debate)

Quote:
McGowan said,
The Shunyata is a good sounding device but it really doesn't address the problems that are inherent in power - dynamic and long term voltage regulation, high impedance and clipped peaks that prevent your Meridian, Sooloos, Oppo and TV from giving you all they have to offer.

A P10 fixes those problems and what I would imagine you'll hear is a reasonably dramatic improvement in soundstage width and depth coupled with an openness you didn't have before.


In response to McGowan (on another forum) somebody asked Shunyata's Caelin Gabriel why they should choose Shunyata's products over PS Audio's and ...

Quote:
Gabriel said,
Good questions and to the point. You didn't shy from asking a tough question and I respect that so you will get a straight answer. When I talk about regenerators I talk about them in general and not specific to a single manufacturer. Also I will use US voltages when discussing this for simplicity.

Regenerators have some appealing advantages. The most important would be its ability to regulate voltage. This is a legitimate and valuable feature if you live in a third-world country or region where the power quality is unreliable. You will notice however that the regenerators have operational limits for their own operation. Usually the range of operation for the regenerator is not much different than the range of operation for your audio components. This is usually 90-125VAC. Many audio components sound best when operated at their peak voltage range which is around 117-120 volts. Advantage to the regenerator.

In most countries the power service is very reliable regarding the maintenance of voltage level, frequency and phase. In our research, we have found that THD and other low frequency power line distortion is not audible in an audio system. High frequency noise, RFI and EMI however do have an audible effect on perceived system performance. Both regenerator and passive designs can reduce high frequency noise. Advantage to both.

Regenerators have some very serious disadvantages. Since they are essentially a high-current amplifier internally, they are subject to the same limitations as any amplifier. Imagine what would happen to reliability of your 1000 watt amplifier if you ran a sinewave through it at 70-80% of maximum power for days and weeks at a time. First you are going to generate a lot of heat and heat is what kills solid state components. So reliability is a very real problem for regenerators. Disadvantage to the regenerator.

Since a regenerator is an amplifier it has limits on how much current it can deliver to the load over time. No regenerator is 100% efficient so some of the energy from the power line is consumed and lost by the regenerator. High end audio systems consume massive amounts of current. Current is what drives your system. Current is what is important. When the voltage sine wave in your home is flat topped this means that either the wiring in the wall or the power transformer feeding your house is maxed out in its ability to deliver peak current. The voltage falls because there is not enough current reserve in the power system not because the voltage level needs to be adjusted. Now you introduce a power regenerator into the circuit which consumes more of the current that you already didn't have enough of in the first place. So what did you accomplish? As an aside: if flat topped waveforms are such a problem why do some of these regenerators have "alternate" waveforms which is essentially flat topping the waveform? Curious. And if THD is a problem then changing the waveform from a sinewave increases harmonic distortion. Curious again.

Several years ago, we purchased and hold the patent to the best power regeneration technology. It was created by Michael Vice in collaboration with Jack Bybee. If we believed that the best way to power an audio system was through regeneration then the HYDRA would be a regenerator. If and when the inherent problems with regeneration can be resolved we will introduce a regeneration type product. Until then, we believe that HYDRA technology is superior in reliability and performance for high-end audio systems.

Do your homework. Why do so many high-end audio manufacturers and PRO audio studios use HYDRAs? How many of the same use regenerators? And finally try a HYDRA and a regenerator in your own system. As a matter of fact don't use a HYDRA for the comparison - borrow our least expensive power distributor VENOM PS8 for the comparison.

cg


How do you guys feel what Gabriel said in response to McGowan?  Gabriel seems pretty confident ... even putting Shunyata's least expensive Venom PS8 power distributor up in comparison to PS Audio's top of the line P10 active renerator.

If you're living in an area that has good power (generally speaking) I can't see the need for regeneration ~ especially if it's on the same line as other components in effect competing for the same current that is the limiting factor in the first place.  Now I could definitely see regeneration benefits in an area where there is very poor current.


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« Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 04:21:01 by beowulf »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #47 - 11/06/13 at 07:58:13
 
In my case, I decided to pick up a P3. I feel like you can do the "Shunyata" side of things with balanced power or other filtration. To me AC benefits seem unique. We'll see.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #48 - 11/06/13 at 15:31:06
 
I stumbled into a great deal on the Trip Lite IS1000HG (Hospital Grade) this morning. So this will be my interim step till I can afford the Power Plant (after the Mystery Amp). So I hope to have the Trip Lite in my system within a week or two!

This is the Hospital Grade version of the Isolation Transformer that Steve used at Decfest. It's not the stealthy black, but it's supposed to have better outlets, better shielding, and doesn't hum like the standard line is prone to.

So eventually, I'll be able to compare the Trip Lite Lab Grade Line Conditioner, Trip Lite Hospital Grade Isolation Transformer, and Power Plant P3.

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« Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 15:37:05 by Lonely Raven »  
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #49 - 11/07/13 at 06:12:25
 
It could be cables too - do you have spares to swap around?  If that doesn't do it, I would contact the man himself Mr. Deckert.  He's extremely helpful In my experience.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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marky
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #50 - 11/10/13 at 22:13:21
 
Here`s an interesting piece on mains.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/The-MCRU-Shop/The-Mains-Supply.html#

It doesn`t name names but the long game reccomends regeneration.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.Benz LP s , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #51 - 11/11/13 at 15:58:47
 
As usual... listen with your own ears, and preferably in your own room with your own equipment... after all, hearing is a "perception"... if you think you hear something - then you do.  And on the contrary, if you think you don't hear it - then you don't.  And only each individual can make this determination for themselves...

* But I "like" what I hear, when I plug my equipment into a "regenerator".  
YMMV...

Smiley
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #52 - 11/14/13 at 20:19:37
 

I'm doing some research on improving the power distribution in my home in prep of the MA showing up in the near future, and I came across this:

http://www.ground1.com/whitepaper1.htm


I'm not sure how to measure this stuff inexpensively, but I'm going to see if it's possible.

One easy fix I'm going to look into, it making sure I have a proper 8' copper ground rod, and I'm going to add a second one 16' away, in a lower part of the yard that's always damp. That should lower my ground resistance considerably and improve my home's ground.
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #53 - 11/14/13 at 20:52:06
 
be careful what you do there LR without consulting a competent licensed electrician... when I ran new dedicated circuits for my listening room... I thought I wanted, and that it would be a good idea, to put these receptacles on their own ground rod - no can do... violating code - everything in a given breaker panel has to be grounded to the same earth ground.  Now if you are talking about running a heavy copper wire from your existing ground bar to an additional one... that might be different.  
On further thought on the manner, having two separate earth grounds for circuits originating from the same breaker panel but not all ran to the same ground... might have the potential to create one gigantic ground loop for your entire house!!!!  I don't know... electricity can be a strange animal... be sure to validate your plan of attack with a competent electrician before you leap off this cliff.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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stone_of_tone
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #54 - 11/14/13 at 21:11:58
 
Just remember, PS Audio is not the only Horse in this race...even with their periodic discounts. Click on that 1st link and the world is your oyster..... .  Joe & Robert Stein at the CableCo are great dudes to work with..... .

Post #292 in Mystery Amp thread....for LR:
If you can't find one cheap/used (PS Audio P3).....buy from the CableCo at an 11.5% discount....returnable for one of equal or greater value at this discount. Plus, plenty others to choose from!  

Check it out:

http://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/Power-Line-Products
then go to what you will actually pay....... . I have loved their cable demo program!
....and of course with this many power regen's to try....I should be able to find one for my SE84CS & CKC.    

I will continue to use my Adcom AC-Enhancer 515 with Hubbell XLO Pro Power Cord to the Mystery Amp.

....my timeline: Kimber Select 3035, Mystery Amplifier, Kef R900 Speakers auditioned in Listening Room....and Legacy Signature SE's.....and Acoustic Zen Adagio's....late Winter.   -Stone

.....but I am curious to try this....
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Tesla-Powercell-6-SE
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Save--300-on-the-Synergistic-Research-Powercel....
Try the Powercell 4 or Powercell 6 with (and without for reference) the Element Tungsten AC cable through our Cable Library to hear what a top flight line filtration system can do for your sound!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #55 - 11/14/13 at 22:08:26
 

You are absolutely correct about having two ground rods could cause a giant ground loop.

I'm talking about verifying the one I have is good, maybe upgrading the bonded line to it, then adding a second one 16' away bonded to the first. There is apparently also a type of clay that can be added around the ground rod that will help lower the resistance to ground improving the system overall.

I've done my research!  ;)

Ground1 was a great resource...answered a bunch of questions I had, that the three licensed electricians were clueless about. They could quote the NEC, but couldn't relate to how to make the system better for my needs.
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Mark
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #56 - 11/15/13 at 14:54:18
 
I've tried several power treatment schemes, including the TrippLite products, and I can honestly say that the best sound I got was by plugging all my components directly into the outlet...

If you have more than two components, install a four plug box... Separate the bridges between outlets, and star-wire each individually to the mains wires... That is, four whites connected to the white feed wire, four blacks to the feed wire... Of course, there would only be two grounds to connect to the feed ground wire, plus a jumper to any metal box...

There are special bonding connectors if a wire nut won't do it...

Then get some good [but bot too expensive] AC cables for your components, and you're good to go...

I use stock Naim EIC type AC cables... About 40 bucks each...

Now, maybe a high-end AC conditioner might give some improvement in some areas... But it's often a zero-sum game: gains in one respect being offset by losses is another... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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stone_of_tone
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #57 - 11/15/13 at 18:11:15
 
STAR GROUNDING....thanks Mark.

I am going to do this = easy.

I first learned of Star Grounding at the Minnesota Audio Society. We had Keith Herron in of Herron Audio...and he showed us his star grounding he uses in his equipment and he did a little portable CD Player....and it improved the little shit box that it was!    -S
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #58 - 11/16/13 at 07:02:34
 
Any good links? I thought it just meant literally grounding everything to one point...

What about adding a copper rod that also goes to ground? Like in IT racks in data closets?
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #59 - 12/10/13 at 04:52:15
 
I've got the P3 here and sure enough I started noticing my Rachel tranny was buzzing much less, if at all.

The P3 would make a LOUD buzzing at times like the torroid was being nailed.

I asked PS Audio again about DC current, and this time Paul said that up to 100mv of DC is blocked be the P3. Earlier, I was emphatically told be another rep. that it did not.

So I still have the Emotiva CMX-2 on the way, but now will think more about how to integrate it. Rather than possibly limit current of the P3, by inserting the CMX2 between the wall and P3, I may add it to the P3 and give something like the DAC + TT some extra protection.

We'll see....so far so good.

I don't have my Tortuga LDR here yet but things are sounding very nice so far with my Vega DAC. More testing to come...
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