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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits (Read 11825 times)
hifitubes
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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
10/22/13 at 06:53:11
 
Has anyone used PS Audio regenerators to a benefit for Decware amps?

I'm overseas but have 110 on "camp", and looking at getting a Richard Gray Pro 400 for some filtering and isolation first.
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #1 - 10/22/13 at 07:42:33
 
I know Lon uses a couple of PS Audio components related to power, hopefully he'll chime in and give his opinions.  

The PerfectWave PowerBase looks pretty interesting to me, and depending on which Decware amps you use I think it's possible to put 2 components on one base.  It kind of kills to birds with one stone as it filters power and also has antivibration properties.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #2 - 10/22/13 at 12:00:21
 
h,

I have been using a Power Plant Premier for several years and I LOVE it. I read a lot about not plugging amps into power centers, but every time I unplug the Torii from this and listen for a day or so, I plug it back into the premier. In my previous home I had horrible power, and the Premier made a huge difference. I have better power now in my new place, but the Premier delivers its magic all the same.

I also use the PowerBases, and as Hans says they do kill two birds with one stone: isolation from vibrations and electrical isolation as well. I don't know how well they would operate without the Premier, but I bet well. I've been lucky to get mine all at a good discounted price.
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #3 - 10/22/13 at 17:43:45
 
+1 on the PS Audio regenerators.  I used API Power Wedges to good effect for years on source components... results mixed with power amps unless the API Power Enhancers were also utilized.  When I auditioned a PS Power Plant Premier in my system - it was a revelation.  I consider them an "essential" component anymore.  About a year ago I upgraded to the new PS Perfect Wave P5 regenerator... I never A/B'd it with the old Premier... but it at least does everything sonically that the older model did, probably more.  Has lots of new useful functionality and is cosmetically much nicer.  If you can get a good buy on one - do not hesitate.  The older power plant premier's are known for becoming problematic as they age.  I can't tell you exactly what goes wrong in them, but your components transformers will start humming... like some DC is being dumped on the outputs of the power plant.  My old Premier did this and I had to send it in for repair.  Everything plugged into my P5 has remained dead silent so far - including my Decware Torii MK.III that I currently have and the SE34I.3 that I used to have... along with my Aesthetix Calypso, DAC, etc.
the performance of everything goes up when plugged into the power plant, more low level resolution, quieter backgrounds, more micro detail, clearer, cleaner, more "there" - there.
I have heard Steve discuss "power conditioners" before... what I heard was that "some" of the more costly ones actually provide benefits in his opinion, however a lot of them just produce a "difference" which in many cases is a step or two in the wrong direction away from clarity and dynamics.  I concur as I have heard this with my own ears as well.  I believe I read somewhere where Steve suggested a simple balanced power transformer for noisy power issues.  These can be obtained from companies like Tripplite for not too much $$$.  I have it on my todo list to try one of these sometime and see how it compares to the PS power plant I have... it would be a huge savings if the balanced power transformer produced the same sonic benefits as the PS regenerator does.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #4 - 10/22/13 at 18:21:43
 
Maddog,

I used the Tripplite transformers Steve recommended for years. NO comparison to the Premier, none whatsoever. I wouldn't bother personally.

I've had no trouble at all with my Premier, hope I don't! I can't live without it. Probably should be saving up for a P5.
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« Last Edit: 10/22/13 at 18:22:35 by Lon »  

HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:Soloist SE,DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #5 - 10/22/13 at 20:58:49
 
Another interesting product I've read about is the Shunyata PS8 Power Distributor ($695) that delivers up to 20Amps of continuous power.  When combined with the Shunyata Defender ($195) and Shunyata Venom High Current Power Cord ($295) you have a 8 outlet Power Distribution, Power Conditioning and Surge Protection for under $1200.
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« Last Edit: 10/22/13 at 21:00:05 by beowulf »  
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #6 - 10/22/13 at 21:51:07
 
these are "passive" devices... I would encourage one to try/listen to them of course, but being passive, all they can possibly due is "filter"... like the API Power Wedges I used to use do, which BTW do have balancing transformers on each set of isolated outlets.  They did/do have an effect... mostly a removal of grunge and overall smoothing effect.  I felt it beneficial on most sources, but they had a tendency to suck the life out of power amps unless used in conjunction with API's power enhancers.  I have tried other passive conditioners over the years also, Monster, Panamax, APC, etc.  Some actually made things sound worse in my opinion, at best they were similar to the API's effects.  But I've never heard anything do what the PS Regenerators do - not even close.  Their impact is not something subtle or something you have to listen to carefully over a period of time, going back-n-forth - it's immediate and pronounced.  But I haven't heard everything either, by any stretch of the imagination.  I think power conditioner products are second only to "wire"(IC's, speaker & power) when it comes to the proliferation of snake oil, fairy dust and voodoo science... but that's a whole nother topic....caveat emptor... be careful with your $$ here and absolutely "try before you buy".
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #7 - 10/23/13 at 07:01:47
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies!

I'm considering a P3 for my overseas system where I have 110v in my house on "camp" (like a base), surrounded by 240v lol. A little city running on 110v - not just my house literally.

I have a few issues here I hope the P3 will cure, rather than adding an isolation transformer, although those seem like a good option for current delivery. I have been considering a Richard Gray Pro 400 20A.

I currently own a cheaper, smaller 100w P100 AC regenerator which I can only use on my DACs as the MT and Rachel draw to much power and overload the transformer in the regenerator.

Right now, I don't have a dedicated line. But I do have a unique 20A circuit running direct to listening room from breaker - 3 outlets - so just some lights TV and HIFI.

My dishwasher was spitting a harsh buzz (like a monster ground loop) up to my tube amp. Turn off dishwasher and all is good. I re-grounded the dishwasher and it's very very very faint now when running.

In general, the power here is stable but iffy imo. A UPS will show pretty stable voltage so I'm not sure what the problem is? Surges? Light bulbs burn out all the time. When I returned from repat to the USA last year, my subwoofer had a blown cap, but no blown fuse. My neighbor just blew his MLs, and a BRAND NEW Classe preamp. And he had a 1K power strip.

My system consists of:

(2) DACs pulling 20-40 watts total
(1) 6w/ch Rachel EL34 tube amp pulls 70-90watts
(1) Mini Torii on the way
(1) 250w subwoofer with plate amp

I asked PS Audio:

Does the P3 isolate when doing its AC>DC>AC conversion? Or is my problem of bad shared ground ? going to let noise slip through and other means (dedicated line, grounding rod) are needed?

Quote:
"Unfortunately, the P3 does not offset DC coming back onto the line which the dishwasher could very well be doing.  Nor does it resolve any ground loops.

They do make cheater plugs that might work.  Contact Music Direct.  They may have a recommendation or solution if that’s the case."


So my plan was isolate but now I'm thinking of selling the small regenerator and buying P3 again, so I could run all my components on it, not sure! One of my friends uses:

Quote:
"One of the larger Signal DU-3, DU-5, or DU-7 will provide plenty of current for your amplifier. I just put a DU-3 on my amp this week, and it is doing some nice things to my soundstage already."
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« Last Edit: 10/23/13 at 07:10:25 by hifitubes »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #8 - 10/23/13 at 07:56:42
 
All I have now, that I'm isolating the PC from the DAC via Adnaco Optical USB system, is some hum.

I can't hear it listening position. It's a little tube rush and hum, but I do need to test again tonight with dishwasher since I have a new DAC.

I think if I go for anything, given my system is "low-powered" and tube-based, it would be a P3.

I guess I'm just worried about getting ti all the over here and I get poor performance or more noise.

These don't create any negative harmonics themselves do they? I was a little surprised at the response from PS Audio, I figured going AC>DC>AC would have to isolate.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #9 - 10/24/13 at 00:52:08
 
I'm not sure if you're aware, but PS Audio is running a 30% off special for the month of October.  I think it's called the Clean Out Your Closet Sale wherein you can trade in an old peice of audio gear (cables, sources, etc.) to get 30% off.

Quote:
PS Audio Newsletter,
Components can be anything hanging out in your closet from any manufacturer at any cost.  Cables can be interconnects, speaker or power cables from any audio or cable company.  

To take advantage of this offer, which includes free shipping and our unconditional 30-day in-home trial period, call us or head to our webstore, choose whatever piece or pieces of PS Audio gear you wish to own, go to the checkout page of our website and enter the discount code CABLE if you are just sending us a cable, COMPONENT if you are only planning on sending a component or COMPONENTCABLE if you are sending us both.  

Depending on which discount code you enter, you will receive either a 10%, 20% or a 30% discount on your entire order.  We'll then ship your new gear to your door via FedEx and you have a full 30 days to try it out.  We'll also send you a RMA form and when you're ready, simply return your trade-ups using the RMA number.  It's simple, easy and a great opportunity.

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« Last Edit: 10/24/13 at 00:53:31 by beowulf »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #10 - 10/24/13 at 04:16:06
 
Ok, thanks, I have a lead on one for 1300 shipped.

Also, do transformers hum because of DC get dumped on the line?

Just noticed my Rachel amp is humming kind of loud. Not noticed that before.

Also hear a buzz from my Vega DAC ???
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #11 - 10/24/13 at 07:36:02
 
Does the Shunyata stuff help with DC in the line?
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #12 - 10/24/13 at 08:00:39
 
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« Last Edit: 10/24/13 at 10:44:38 by hifitubes »  
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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #13 - 10/24/13 at 10:44:00
 
Of, so I can get:

Used like-new PS Audio P# for 1300 shipped.
Consonance D-Linear 15 Ultra Reference Power Conditioning System for $1650 shipped.
Richard Gray RPGC 400 PRo 20A for $425 shipped brand new
Maybe one of these outlets(vs. PS Audio, Teslaplex outlet, Maestro)

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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #14 - 10/25/13 at 22:36:57
 
don't know what to tell you hifitubes that hasn't already been said... you're just going to have to listen and decide for yourself with your own ears, in your own room, with your own system.  All the devices you mention here are "passive" except for the PS regenerators.  I have never heard a passive power conditioner yield what I perceive to be the improvements in sonics, that the PS regenerator does.  My experience has been that most of these products produce a "difference", i.e. have some kind of impact on the sound - sometimes a perceived improvement, sometimes not, sometimes just different.  The regenerators are the only ones that made me think OMG, holy cow, do you hear that!  The entire fidelity spectrum of my system was elevated.  I could not live without one in my system these days.  And this from the first note played via equipment plugged into them.  This impression/experience has held true for about 5 years now.  Nothing has unseated them yet in my system.  

Nobody here can tell you what to do - only relay our experiences.
Let us know what path you take and what you end up "hearing"....
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #15 - 10/25/13 at 22:40:52
 

Maddog, reading what you said above - what would be a good bang for the buck regeneration setup for Mystery amp and Oppo BDP-105? Do I need to get separate units for each device?
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #16 - 10/26/13 at 00:29:14
 
LR...  I run my entire system off one PS Audio P5... the P5 shows that my Torii MK.3 pulls about 145 watts... all the time, idling or at full-song... typical of a Class A design...  My source components all together pull about another 100 watts.  So output power capacity of a single P5 being up around 1200 watts, my entire system being on a single P5 is not an issue.  I have never experienced my P5 getting more than barely warm, nor have I ever heard the fans come on.  So from the capacity perspective, one P5 is Okey Dokey.  I do have a dedicated 20 amp circuit going to it as well.

the PS PW regenerators, P10, P5 and P3 are not cheap IMO... I personally would find it hard to justify multiple ones in one single system.  But if you got the coin.. go for it and report back what you hear.  You might even ping McGowan about it and see what he says... he's pretty good about responding to email in my experience.

there are 4 isolated pairs of outlets on the P5.. so you can put your amp on one, your pre on one, your digital sources on one, and analog sources on one.  I have never heard anything but total utter silence from anything I've ever had plugged in to it.  With my Aesthetix pre, Wyred DAC and Torii amp... put your ear in the throat of my 97-98db sensitivity speakers and there is zero detectable hiss.... so it is my humble opin, that one P5 is sufficient - not to mention how the music "sounds" when played via components connected to it... which is our objective here....

if you skip the touch-screen interface of the P5 and don't care about its "network connectivity" capability and can get buy with a few less watts output power capacity - go for the P3 and save some green.

"IF" I was going to mess around with greater capacity, I think I would rather have two P5's than one P10.  Thought being to put one P5 on one dedicated circuit and the other P5 on a separate dedicated circuit.. with the idea here to be greater isolation, i.e. amp on one, sources/pre on the other.  As one P5 can supply about all the power available from a 20 amp, 115 volt A/C circuit.  So any amp designed to run on US 120 volt A/C should theoretically be able to be served by one P5.
However, I gotta tell ya... I think this would prove to be an exercise in futility, completely unnecessary and prove to make no detectable difference.  The only time it might make sense and be beneficial, is if you had inefficient speakers and giant arc-welder amps and actually needed the juice... I used to live in that world... for a few "decades".  I got enlightened a little over a year ago to the world of high-efficiency speakers and flea-watt amps... I won't be going back to my previous sonic existence any time in the foreseeable future......

Grin
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #17 - 10/26/13 at 01:25:10
 

Wow, thanks for that. Looks out of my Pay Grade - I'd rather buy some ERRx - but it looks like something I'd keep in the back of my mind if I ever get a bonus or something!

I guess I was hoping for something in the $1000 range.   Grin
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #18 - 10/28/13 at 16:00:31
 
LR - look for discounted P3's.... they are in your budget.  Exact same technology - slightly less output power than a P5 and no touch screen or network connectivity - both unnecessary things and nothing to do with SQ....
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #19 - 10/28/13 at 18:36:19
 
I will do that. Mystery amp and Diffusers I'm building come first...then I'm seriously considering Regeneration. I completely understand the concept behind regeneration now that I've done some reading on it, and it sounds it's like the closest solution to running my gear off batteries...or maybe building a Faraday Cage around my gear rack. LOL

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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #20 - 10/28/13 at 19:24:40
 
Roger that... I just picked up eight diffuser kits at Decfest... another nice winter project putting these together..!!!  My winter schedule is already full.....
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #21 - 10/28/13 at 20:20:31
 

I looked at those while I was there...the workmanship is excellent. I can't imagine they'd take much "putting together".

The ones I'm building will be...somewhat similar.  ;)

Except mine will probably be 12" deep, and 36" tall.  :o
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #22 - 10/28/13 at 20:53:22
 

they actually have to be taken apart and glued together.. they're just "friction fit" as provided.  Check out the instructions for assembly from the website.. more to it than one would think.  I'm sure it will get easier after doing a couple of them.  Then stain/finish, cover with grill coth, etc.
If you saw the stack of diffusors on the floor in the amp build room at Decfest - those were mine!  I loaded them up Sunday morning.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #23 - 10/29/13 at 03:14:12
 

You should consider staining before assembly. But then, if you're wrapping them in cloth, I guess it won't matter too much. It's just that stain doesn't work well through any glue smears/dribbles you might have.

Yeah, it was yours I was looking at. Great work done on them; which translates to easy assembly.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #24 - 10/29/13 at 23:49:00
 
Yep... stain no worky over glue.  my audiophile anal tendencies are making me ponder the "reflectivity" of whatever coating I decide to use.  i.e. would a tight-surfaced high-gloss paint be better?, etc.  At a minimum the wood should be sealed in some fashion, even if covering with sonically transparent cloth of some kind…
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #25 - 10/30/13 at 14:41:53
 

I firmly believe that if the coating has a visual specularity, then it will have a sonic specularity. That said, you're covering the the devices in cloth which would filter out anything the clear coat would have reflected better. You'd only be sealing them up to protect from the elements at that point, and I honestly don't believe that's going to be necessary either. It's ply woods, which are typically dimensionaly stable unless really, really humid (e.g. downright soaked).

Also, I didn't clarify in my previous post, but I meant to say that staining before assembly will be *so* much easier, not only due to the glue factor, but because it's a PITA to get into those fins. My big diffusers on my back wall had to be done with a spray gun like you'd use to paint a car.

These were roughly built after the Decware ones - I bought the plans when they were first posted (and have since lost them). I built them using materials on hand, so the dimensions are slightly different.






My next sets are going to be HUGE!
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #26 - 10/30/13 at 15:13:05
 
Well done those diffusers look great.

JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #27 - 10/30/13 at 17:18:51
 
LR - those look great.  Maybe you should "go into biz"...?

well... these are "diffusors" so I want them to "reflect" sound, not absorb it....  my current room is practically an anechoic chamber anyway - over 15 ft from speakers to side walls and I can bring them out from rear wall about as far as I'd ever want.  Room is heavily damped naturally at this time – too dead at the moment actually.  However, my "room" is soon to be remodeled and I anticipate more liveliness to tame when finished.  My first thought for use of these diffusors right now, is to make them "mobile" and "adjustable" on stands, so I can play with positioning them around and between the speakers to see how it effects imaging and mapping of the soundstage.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #28 - 10/30/13 at 19:02:24
 

Being mobile is an awesome idea! Even thought I plan on making mine up to 1' deep and almost 3' wide X 3' tall, mine are going to mobile as well. I'm betting we'll learn a lot about placement and how it effects the sound. I look forward to hearing the lessons you learn from this!

Man, I wish I had a room that size - super jealous! The diffusers are going to have plenty of room to do their job! Steve's diffuser design is a compromise due to the short listening distance of most rooms, so he's made it as effective as it can be for those short distances. With the space you have, you could go 6"-12" deep on your diffusers and still get the full effect! (typically they say 1' distance per 1" of depth as a loose rule of thumb).  

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hifitubes
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #29 - 10/30/13 at 20:43:47
 
I'm close to buying a P3!

But I just pulled the trigger on a Signal DU-3 balanced transformer! Might pick up a DC blocker too.

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« Last Edit: 10/30/13 at 20:45:32 by hifitubes »  
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maddog07
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #30 - 10/31/13 at 17:51:20
 
Emotiva has a device that is supposed to deal with DC also...
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx2
I have one and one of their CMX-6's also... I have never taken the time to A/B them to my PS P5... the Emo's are in use in a less critical setup.  But they certainly don't seem to be hurting anything either, as I have no noise or hum issues where I'm using them.... cheap enough to try...
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #31 - 11/01/13 at 14:41:02
 
The CMX-2 has the DC blocker, the 6 doesn't. I have one on order.

the Signal DU-3



http://www.signaltransformer.com/home/step-updown-power-isolation/

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #32 - 11/01/13 at 15:09:39
 
Question for you guys.  When I use my Torii I turn the volume up on my amp all the way.  There is an obvious audible buzz.  I turn it down till I don't hear it then adjust my volume on my CSP2+ pre to listening level.  Since my listening area (apt.) is small there is always plenty of volume.  My question is: Would a power regenerator such as PS audio P3 or other get rid of that buzz completely?  I currently have my amp plugged into a pretty crappy panamax power surge protector.

THanks

JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #33 - 11/01/13 at 15:23:45
 
One of those would help. . . . Depends what the source of the hum really is. If the hum is tube-based,, it won't likely be completely eliminated.

Most hums I've had in my system HAVE been traced back to tubes, 6N1P tubes have been pretty bad in that regard, for instance.  I've had more home from CSP2 and CSP2+ components due to tubes than the Torii itself.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #34 - 11/01/13 at 16:13:22
 
I thought it might be from the torii itself but it could definitely be the tubes as well also my power cords/interconnects are all pretty close together.  Is it safe to take tubes out when the amp is on to isolate the problem?  It didn't bother me till last night after a previous nights loud listening session to pulp's different class album (loudest I've ever listened to my system)

Thanks JD
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #35 - 11/01/13 at 16:57:32
 
No, you should only remove and install tubes with the power off.

Also, are your interconnects shielded and if not, see if you can route them away from the power cord. As the power inlet is on the top and the cord arcs away from the amp near where interconnects often cross an unshielded cord has given me hums before. . . .
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #36 - 11/01/13 at 19:44:41
 
JD...

I kid you not, I had a Panamax AC filter one time that actually "Caused" noise.  Try plugging your Torii Straight into the wall - bypassing the Panamax all together.

It sounds like you are in fact describing "noise" as opposed to a ground loop hum... which would be present at the same level all the time and not just appear when the volume is up.

If plugging your Torii straight into the wall has no impact on reducing the noise, then start swapping out your IC's and power cords one at a time and see if any of them are the culprit.  Then you can try swapping tubes - BUT ONLY WITH THE TORII TURNED OFF.  Never pull a tube while the amp is on....
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #37 - 11/05/13 at 09:55:18
 
Can anyone chime in on actual noise reduction with Decware gear?

I don't have my DC blocker here yet, and besides a humming/buzzing transformer, I have hum on speakers.

Not much mind you but given my dishwasher woes, I'm just not happy about the power.

It sounds like you guys with P3 and P5 are running dead quiet?
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #38 - 11/05/13 at 10:09:14
 
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #39 - 11/05/13 at 14:40:30
 
I've got a mini torii plugged into a PS Audio P3.  I have speaker hum and the P3 makes no difference at all in lowering it.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #40 - 11/05/13 at 17:18:56
 

seikosha,
  • is the hum actually coming from your speakers?  Or is it coming from a transformer of one of your components?
  • and if you have multi-driver speakers, which driver do you hear it the most prevalent in, the tweeter, mid, woofer, etc.
  • does the hum remain at a constant level regardless of the volume setting on your preamp.  Or does the hum increase and decrease with the movement of the volume control?

I used to have a PS Power Plant Premier which worked perfectly for years, and then the transformers of my components started humming when plugged in to the PPP... DC offset on the line is known to cause transformer buzzing/humming.  I sent my PPP in and had it repaired - buzzing transformer problem went away.
Not long after that I sold the PPP and purchased a PS Perfect Wave P5 and have had no humming transformers or noise in the speaker problems so far - about 18 months so far.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #41 - 11/05/13 at 17:25:20
 

OK, I've been reading and reading, and I've pretty much sold myself on getting a Power Plant - where is the best place to find one used/discounted/B-stock/Demo -whatever?? I'm hoping I can get a base model for around $1000. I don't need internet connectivity and all that - just the clean power for my Mystery amp and Oppo.


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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #42 - 11/05/13 at 17:44:16
 
maddog07

Hum is not from the transformer, it's the speakers.  The transformer itself is completely quiet.  The speakers are single driver Omegas.  The hum is constant and does not change with the volume.  It is the same if the volume is all the way up or all the way down.  If I disconnect the source input, the hum is still there.  If I disconnect the speaker cables, the hum goes away.  :-)  The level of the hum is exactly the same whether it is plugged into the P3 or the wall.

I've plugged a half a dozen other amps into the same system and the Mini Torii is the only one with the hum.  Everything else is completely quiet.

I'll have a chance to plug an SE84 into my system soon and I'll be curious about how quiet it is or is not compared to the Mini Torii.
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« Last Edit: 11/05/13 at 17:46:02 by seikosha »  

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #43 - 11/05/13 at 18:01:46
 
sounds like a tube issue in the mini-T to me.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #44 - 11/05/13 at 18:08:11
 
Tubes are the only thing I can hope for.  That said, the hum level is completely identical in the right and left channels and being dual mono, that would mean that Steve delivered the amp to me with two equally bad tubes which leads me to believe that the amp just has a natural level of hum to it.  What do you think...is it really possible that I got two bad tubes?  The amp is new.

I'm going to listen to another Mini Torii with the same speakers in the next month or two.  If that one doesn't hum as loud as mine, I'm sending mine in for a check up.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #45 - 11/05/13 at 19:11:18
 
Every tube amp I've ever used has had some slight hum inherent. I can't speak for all the Decware gear, but both Zen amps I'm quite intimate with have that little bit of hum...though my original SE84-A was noticeably quieter after Steve modded it, it's still there. I think many people call it the natural tube swish of the electrons flowing.  

I know there are some circuits where you can dump that hum (into ground?), but I have a feeling you lose something when doing that, so I can't imagine Steve making use of those designs.

Omegas being as sensitive as they are, I'm sure the hum seems to stand out more. Once music is playing, you shouldn't be able to hear it at all.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #46 - 11/06/13 at 00:11:42
 
Quote:
Lonely Raven said,
OK, I've been reading and reading, and I've pretty much sold myself on getting a Power Plant - where is the best place to find one used/discounted/B-stock/Demo -whatever?? I'm hoping I can get a base model for around $1000. I don't need internet connectivity and all that - just the clean power for my Mystery amp and Oppo.


They sell B-Stock directly from their website and also Music Direct.  PS Audio is all the time holding sales that make it worth your while, so subscribe to their newsletter and they will let you know when they come up.

________________________

I've been reading about the Active Power Regeneration vs Passive Filter debate and I can't tell which one is the better route to go.  Two of the top manufacturers of each type of device is PS Audio with their active regeneration and Shunyata with their passive filter style on the other end of the spectrum.

I was reading from another forum where a person asked PS Audio's Paul McGowan about Shunyata and how Shunyata's Hydra products differ from PS Audio's Power Plants (the active regenerator vs the passive filter debate)

Quote:
McGowan said,
The Shunyata is a good sounding device but it really doesn't address the problems that are inherent in power - dynamic and long term voltage regulation, high impedance and clipped peaks that prevent your Meridian, Sooloos, Oppo and TV from giving you all they have to offer.

A P10 fixes those problems and what I would imagine you'll hear is a reasonably dramatic improvement in soundstage width and depth coupled with an openness you didn't have before.


In response to McGowan (on another forum) somebody asked Shunyata's Caelin Gabriel why they should choose Shunyata's products over PS Audio's and ...

Quote:
Gabriel said,
Good questions and to the point. You didn't shy from asking a tough question and I respect that so you will get a straight answer. When I talk about regenerators I talk about them in general and not specific to a single manufacturer. Also I will use US voltages when discussing this for simplicity.

Regenerators have some appealing advantages. The most important would be its ability to regulate voltage. This is a legitimate and valuable feature if you live in a third-world country or region where the power quality is unreliable. You will notice however that the regenerators have operational limits for their own operation. Usually the range of operation for the regenerator is not much different than the range of operation for your audio components. This is usually 90-125VAC. Many audio components sound best when operated at their peak voltage range which is around 117-120 volts. Advantage to the regenerator.

In most countries the power service is very reliable regarding the maintenance of voltage level, frequency and phase. In our research, we have found that THD and other low frequency power line distortion is not audible in an audio system. High frequency noise, RFI and EMI however do have an audible effect on perceived system performance. Both regenerator and passive designs can reduce high frequency noise. Advantage to both.

Regenerators have some very serious disadvantages. Since they are essentially a high-current amplifier internally, they are subject to the same limitations as any amplifier. Imagine what would happen to reliability of your 1000 watt amplifier if you ran a sinewave through it at 70-80% of maximum power for days and weeks at a time. First you are going to generate a lot of heat and heat is what kills solid state components. So reliability is a very real problem for regenerators. Disadvantage to the regenerator.

Since a regenerator is an amplifier it has limits on how much current it can deliver to the load over time. No regenerator is 100% efficient so some of the energy from the power line is consumed and lost by the regenerator. High end audio systems consume massive amounts of current. Current is what drives your system. Current is what is important. When the voltage sine wave in your home is flat topped this means that either the wiring in the wall or the power transformer feeding your house is maxed out in its ability to deliver peak current. The voltage falls because there is not enough current reserve in the power system not because the voltage level needs to be adjusted. Now you introduce a power regenerator into the circuit which consumes more of the current that you already didn't have enough of in the first place. So what did you accomplish? As an aside: if flat topped waveforms are such a problem why do some of these regenerators have "alternate" waveforms which is essentially flat topping the waveform? Curious. And if THD is a problem then changing the waveform from a sinewave increases harmonic distortion. Curious again.

Several years ago, we purchased and hold the patent to the best power regeneration technology. It was created by Michael Vice in collaboration with Jack Bybee. If we believed that the best way to power an audio system was through regeneration then the HYDRA would be a regenerator. If and when the inherent problems with regeneration can be resolved we will introduce a regeneration type product. Until then, we believe that HYDRA technology is superior in reliability and performance for high-end audio systems.

Do your homework. Why do so many high-end audio manufacturers and PRO audio studios use HYDRAs? How many of the same use regenerators? And finally try a HYDRA and a regenerator in your own system. As a matter of fact don't use a HYDRA for the comparison - borrow our least expensive power distributor VENOM PS8 for the comparison.

cg


How do you guys feel what Gabriel said in response to McGowan?  Gabriel seems pretty confident ... even putting Shunyata's least expensive Venom PS8 power distributor up in comparison to PS Audio's top of the line P10 active renerator.

If you're living in an area that has good power (generally speaking) I can't see the need for regeneration ~ especially if it's on the same line as other components in effect competing for the same current that is the limiting factor in the first place.  Now I could definitely see regeneration benefits in an area where there is very poor current.


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« Last Edit: 11/06/13 at 04:21:01 by beowulf »  
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #47 - 11/06/13 at 07:58:13
 
In my case, I decided to pick up a P3. I feel like you can do the "Shunyata" side of things with balanced power or other filtration. To me AC benefits seem unique. We'll see.
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #48 - 11/06/13 at 15:31:06
 
I stumbled into a great deal on the Trip Lite IS1000HG (Hospital Grade) this morning. So this will be my interim step till I can afford the Power Plant (after the Mystery Amp). So I hope to have the Trip Lite in my system within a week or two!

This is the Hospital Grade version of the Isolation Transformer that Steve used at Decfest. It's not the stealthy black, but it's supposed to have better outlets, better shielding, and doesn't hum like the standard line is prone to.

So eventually, I'll be able to compare the Trip Lite Lab Grade Line Conditioner, Trip Lite Hospital Grade Isolation Transformer, and Power Plant P3.

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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #49 - 11/07/13 at 06:12:25
 
It could be cables too - do you have spares to swap around?  If that doesn't do it, I would contact the man himself Mr. Deckert.  He's extremely helpful In my experience.
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