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AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits (Read 5463 times)
Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #100 - 02/13/14 at 14:51:34
 

I was exhausted from work, but still spent a couple hours on this last night. Looks like I was right about there being two different buzzes going on, which is what was making this so difficult to suss out.

I repeated all the tests I did before, which was the same thing Steve suggested; starting from the speakers back.

The buzz goes up and down with the volume knob. The ZMA itself is dead quiet - everything starts when connecting outside devices.

Buzz #1, Interconnects acting like antenna - this was the buzz I was getting even with the Oppo unplugged. Since I rearrange my system over the weekend, this buzz has been minimized. It's still there, but I refuse to go to shielded ICs because they sound flatter, like they lose some air. (at least with the ones I have available to me)

Buzz #2, The Oppo. *nothing* plugged into the Oppo except ICs - I get a little of the antenna buzz mentioned above - as soon as I plug in power, I get a heavier buzz that's clearly apparent from the seating position. Again, *nothing* plugged into the Oppo except the ZMA.

If I plug in my old Denon CD player, I only get Buzz #1. It sounds really good on the ZMA by the way, softer and more forgiving than the Oppo.

If I plug my SE84A Zen Amp in place of the ZMA, connected to Oppo or Denon, I only get Buzz #1

Buzz #2 only happens with ZMA and Oppo combo.

I've tried different power cords (factory shielded, DIY unshielded, cheap computer grade, heavily shielded off my Cisco routers). No change to above issues.

I tried plugging both the ZMA and Oppo directly into the same wall outlet - Same buzz issue, with the added bonus of gaining transformer buzz. Tried both devices connected to my Trip Lite isolation transformer, and I was rewarded with the Trip Lite having some nasty transformer buzz, plus the #1 and #2 buzz above.

Again, as I've said before, the ZMA is dead quiet on it's own. The only thing I can figure is that the Oppo has an issue, or is causing an issue when mixed with the ZMA - I'm sort of at a loss for what to do now. Sending Oppo another E-mail to see what they suggest.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #101 - 02/13/14 at 14:54:11
 
Dang! You really have gone the distance on this one. Hope Oppo has something to try. . . .
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #102 - 02/13/14 at 16:12:53
 
Well, I really want this resolved - I wish I better understood what was going on (electrically) that was causing the buzz. Plus, Steve seemed pretty miffed above. LOL So I wanted to do my due diligence.

On the plus side, this has basically proven that the P10 does what they say it does. The balanced power did get rid of the transformer buzz I had with the little Zen amp, the transformers run cooler, and it's really starting to sharpen the music up.

If I can just resolve this last buzz issue I think I'd be *very* happy with the system.

I have an Audio Play Date (as Brianne calls it) with Palomino this weekend. I'm going to bring my gear over to his audio temple and see if we can replicate the issues; plus I'm wanting to put my Oppo up against his little DAC and see what's what. It should be a very revealing event.

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« Last Edit: 02/13/14 at 16:13:29 by Lonely Raven »  
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DBC
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #103 - 02/13/14 at 18:05:30
 
Quote:
LR Wrote:  I wish I better understood what was going on (electrically) that was causing the buzz.


LR, just because you have not solved the problem this does not mean you are not making progress. If you want to quantify what's going on you are going to have to get your hands on a decent Digital Volt Meter and Test Leads with alligator clips on on each end. Both can be had for not a lot at Radio Shack.

"Buzz #2" definitely sounds like AC Current flowing between the ZMA and Oppo via the interconnects when the ZMA & Oppo are plugged in. Remove the interconnects between the two devices and power both devices up. Using your Digital Volt Meter set at say a range of 20 Volts AC touch one meter lead to the ZMA chassis and the other to the Oppo Chassis. If you read a voltage then you have a voltage potential between the two. Now to solve that problem.

Try attaching one end of a test lead to the Oppo chassis and the other end to the ZMA chassis (typically I attach the alligator clips to an unpainted chassis screw). Now check for any Voltage potential between the two devices again with your Digital Volt Meter. There should not be any voltage differential since the test lead between the two device chassis will in effect tie the earth grounds of each together. If this is the case then try installing the interconnects to see if Buzz #2 still exists.

If you do this and report back your finding then I can help you with the next steps.
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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #104 - 02/13/14 at 18:56:46
 
Yes, the temple awaits.  Incense will be burning.  Please bring your own finger cymbals.

I'm running my Rachael's as mono blocks right now so that the shock of Zen-zilla entering the temple will not be too extreme.

We'll see if we can re-create/eliminate the hum switching out our gear and have some fun putting my DIY speakers and over achieving DAC against your 944/oppo combo.

And now that I think I have the bass in my room tamed and focused I want to feel the ZMA pop me in the chest.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #105 - 02/13/14 at 20:56:37
 
DBC - Thanks!

I do have a nice Fluke, and I tried to measure potential (both DC and AC) between the two pieces...but I totally forgot I needed to disconnect the ICs before doing that. I got no meaningful readings.

I'll do this again tonight and report back. Thanks for your suggestions!

Edit to add: Also, I did notice one odd thing - while I was behind the stereo rack, swapping ICs; I had the interconnects in my right hand, plugged into only the ZMA, and I bumped into one of the power transformers bell with my left hand, and heard a loud buzz through the speakers. I figured, I must have just given some of the noise a path through my hand to the ICs - no big deal - touch the Power Transformer nothing. Huh, Touch both Output transformers Nothing, Touch the other Power Transfomer BZZZZZZZZZ.

So for some reason, only one of the PTs was causing a buzz when I touched it. I have no idea if that has anything to do with anything, but thought I'd mention it.
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« Last Edit: 02/13/14 at 21:02:39 by Lonely Raven »  
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stone_of_tone
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #106 - 02/17/14 at 03:33:16
 
LR, could you cover the Tranny's with something, or at least the one in question, that seems to be making the airborne connection...this would stop/block the noise transfer/connection?

How did things go with Zen-zilla at Palomino's & your Oppo/buzz?
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« Last Edit: 02/17/14 at 03:39:46 by stone_of_tone »  

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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #107 - 02/17/14 at 13:34:57
 
I'll let Raven comment on or buzz investigations but we had a good session overall.  He basically brought his whole rig and we tried various combinations with mine.

We started by introducing the P10 (monster!) to my rig.  The effects were immediate and profound. Most noticeable was the improvement to the bass.  I have done a lot of work over the past couple weeks introducing bass traps in all four corners and the bass has really firmed up.   This took it up another significant notch.  Nothing subtle about it.

Overall soundstage was also sigificantly improved as was the definition around all the instruments.  Raven explained it well in an example where he pointed out you could hear and feel the bow resonating on the strings on the violin.

We also did some tests with my triplite isolation transformer.  I have heard both positive and negative comments about this unit and wanted to see how the waveform looked on the P10, so we ran it between the wall socket and the P10.  It amplifies the voltage about 3 volts and had a similar THD, perhaps a bit higher than straight out of the wall.  The waveform looked a little uglier though, more ragged on the back end of the sine wave versus the front end of the sine wave distortion straight out of the wall.

Still after Raven left, I did some A/B with the triplite and I still prefer it in my system.  However, I am now scheming to figure out how to at least get a P3.   I don't know about regeneration vs flittering, but I certainly heard the effects of regeneration.  It is indeed a "wow" difference.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #108 - 02/17/14 at 14:36:06
 
I'm glad you heard a "wow" difference. I just have the lowly Power Plant Premier (though it suits my needs entirely) and I won't do without it. For me (maybe it was my 1932 house wiring and city power of the time) the Tripplites added more noise (PPP verified this) than they did good and I really relaxed once I replaced them with the PPP.

I just have the PS Audio Dectet in my second system, it does a good job, introduces less noise and hash than the Tripplites, but doesn't regenerate. One day I'll probably upgrade that Dectet to a regenerator if the money "holds."
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #109 - 02/17/14 at 16:43:16
 

I posted this in the Mystery Amp thread - the difference on Palomino's Rachel with the P10 was like 25% improvement, HUGE. With the ZMA, I'd say it's only 5% improvement - those big ass caps really make a difference!

When I got home, I put my little Zen amp on the P10, and it was like a bought a new amp...which is funny, because I haven't plugged in the Zen amp since the ZMA showed up. LOL

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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #110 - 02/17/14 at 16:43:35
 
Tell me more about the PPP. Maybe there is a thread already.  It's more within my means right now.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #111 - 02/17/14 at 17:02:08
 
Here's the product page (It has not been produced for s few years):

http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/power-plant-premier/

For what it's worth here is what Stereophile says about the PPP:

http://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/ps_audio_power_plant_premier_ac_...

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« Last Edit: 02/17/14 at 18:06:38 by Lon »  

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4krow
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #112 - 02/18/14 at 00:02:59
 
Guys, I want to add my two cents here, as I have owned a couple PS Audio regenerators and think highly of them overall. It seems to have come up more than a few times that the PPP has some issues now and then. Mine certainly did and I sold it. It would click now and then at night for no apparent reason. I sent it back to PSA and they 'fixed' it. It continued with the problem and I figured that it was just where I lived or something. After selling it I read on the PSA forum that there quite a few people having the same problem. Not to say that all odf them had this issue, but I do see a lot of them for sale over the years. It's too bad because for the most part mine worked great. That is just my experience. Now, I still believe in the company, and bought a used P300. It is really great and has the muti-wave II+ installed. I wouldn't go without it. I installed a fan inside it and even made a stand for it. Again the idea makes a lot of sense and is readily audible.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #113 - 02/18/14 at 00:07:07
 
I've heard of this problem too. Must say I've never had one lick or one click of a problem with mine.
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4krow
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #114 - 02/18/14 at 00:15:58
 
 In that case, you are golden my friend. That's all I wanted too, but it became a circus that I never intended to buy a ticket to.
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #115 - 02/18/14 at 07:34:25
 
As far as the P3 (750 va) vs P5 (1250 va) vs P10 (1500 va) ... how do you know which product you need?  Do you add up all your audio products somehow to determine what you need exactly?

I realize that buying a P10 would have someone completely covered since it's their highest level product, but what about the other units, etc. in comparison to what one's needs are?
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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #116 - 02/18/14 at 13:00:21
 
I am running everything off a 250v triplite now.  I don't need much.
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #117 - 02/18/14 at 14:01:51
 
You would be absolutely fine with the PPP, plenty of headroom.

I run my Torri Mk III, my Rega with upgraded power supply, an SACD player, a Blu-ray player, my PWD Mk II and PWT, my DVR, two CSP2+ and a ZP3 on my PPP. With no strain, no pinch on dynamics, etc. And without a glitch from day one.
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« Last Edit: 02/18/14 at 14:04:37 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #118 - 02/18/14 at 14:10:44
 
I have only the Rachael, a iPod digital transport and occasionally a turntable.   My current DAC runs off a battery.  The Mac mini is currently on a different circuit.

I was wondering if a P300 would do for a short term solution??
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Lon
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #119 - 02/18/14 at 14:15:27
 
You could, but imo the PPP sounds about three times better than the P300. (I have one of those, used it for years til it crapped out, never have tried to repair it, I think it's just the power switch went out.)

For the price of a used PPP I'd say just hold off til one of those arrives.
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Palomino
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #120 - 02/18/14 at 14:17:16
 
Thanks.

I've seen them for about $1K.  I'll keep watching.
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busterfree
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #121 - 02/19/14 at 02:27:45
 
Quote:
Posted by: beowulf

I realize that buying a P10 would have someone completely covered since it's their highest level product, but what about the other units, etc. in comparison to what one's needs are?



I have a P5 for a small system. I could not afford a P10, and this was before the P3 came out. Some, including PS Audio, say the P10 sounds the best because of the increase in magnetics. I think there is a you tube video where they showed the difference in size of the internals.

A P10 is on my wish list to replace an older P500 power plant that I have.
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beowulf
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #122 - 02/19/14 at 05:45:07
 
Quote:
busterfree said,

I have a P5 for a small system. I could not afford a P10, and this was before the P3 came out. Some, including PS Audio, say the P10 sounds the best because of the increase in magnetics. I think there is a you tube video where they showed the difference in size of the internals.

A P10 is on my wish list to replace an older P500 power plant that I have.


Wish list is correct! There's always something to entice us towards that darn P10 Grin
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« Last Edit: 02/19/14 at 05:46:50 by beowulf »  
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busterfree
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #123 - 02/19/14 at 06:39:54
 
Here is the link to the video. You can see the inside of power plants @ the 2:10 mark.

http://youtu.be/hNHkfhBa42g
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Lonely Raven
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #124 - 02/19/14 at 15:50:47
 

I've watched that video so many times. Apparently Paul is also an artisan bread maker as well as audiophile, so it makes me smile when he compares audio to bread.

I wish they had more videos...even the ones showing their ineptitude with room treatments was interesting.  :)
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Re: AC regeneration for Decware amps benefits
Reply #125 - 02/19/14 at 18:40:06
 
Ac has fascinated me from the first time that I stuck a butter knife into a wall outlet...the subsequent experiences were less by comparison. Having said that, AC is rife with possibilities, and PS Audio was one of the pioneers in going beyond the passive filtering that became more and more a predator by the way of ignorance from the audio nuts. No doubt most things have their place, even lies, but it is our job to investigate the facts before purchase. In the end, our beliefs,however naive or sophisticated, do not change the truth.
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