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Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb! (Read 627 times)
cbauer210
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Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
10/09/13 at 04:20:04
 
I feel like I'm diving head first into a new world and the cost of admission is so high. I really just need to know if I'm going down a good road or making a major mistake.

I just placed an order for a pair of Decware Mg944's! I'm super excited to get them up and running in my family room but it looks like a 4 Month wait right now. I have been torn for a while between the ERR's and the mg944's. in the end i chose the mg's because i listen to a lot of bass heavy music (jazz, rock, disco, hip hop, electronc, trance fusion). i was afraid the ERR's would be too clean and heavy on the highs...not enough punch. I'm not a bass junky but do like to feel a little thump when appropriate. The room is a little small and weird (14' x 25') with a "L" shaped sectional couch right in the middle of it. The ceiling is about 9 or 10 feet high. There isn't too much I can do with the speaker or the couch placement so I just need something that will sound good even with an obstruction like the couch in the listening area. The tv is not hooked up to this system either. it is only connected to the turntable and cassette player (yes...i still listen to cassettes). I'm hoping I made the right decision...thoughts?

I love the sound of my current Klipsch KG4's but when I drive them hard (which happens a lot on sunday funday) the highs get a bit distorted and muddy. I also dont seem to get that 3-Dimensional sound effect that fills the room and makes the speakers disappear. There is plenty of power with the torii so I'm not sure if  the torii mkiii is too powerful for the horns, or if the amp/speaker combo isn't playing nice together. Something is a little off.

Either way the kg's are great speakers that do sound nice with a really awesome low end so I plan on building a system in the basement. Perhaps i will try and drive them with one of decware's smaller SET amps. Right now I really want to try and build the perfect system (or as close as I can get within my functional living  space and my furniture constraints) in my family room around the kg's.

Anyone have some advice for an overly enthusiastic newb like myself? I have been so impressed thus far with my decware products. I really just have a craving to see how good it can get! It's an addiction!

Here are the components of the current setup and a pic:

Thorens TD125 mk2 Turntable
Nakamichi BX300 Cassette Deck
Shure M97xE Cartridge
Jico S.A.S. Stylus
Zen Triode ZP3 Phono Stage
Zen Torii Mk3 Amp
Klipsch Kg4 Speakers


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Lonely Raven
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Re: Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
Reply #1 - 10/09/13 at 15:14:57
 
I've been playing with my MG944 for about six weeks now, and played with Steve's well broken in pair during Decfest.

They can and do fill a room, but the sweet spot is very specific. So where you're ears are in relationship to the tweets matters.

They have nice bass, much more than little speakers should have, but I supplement mine with a sub still to fill in the bottom end as I like it. I listen to a lot of Electronic music, and music with some solid bass guitar. The MG944 reproduce the upper bass frequencies and harmonics quite well giving that realism and localization - so I've got my sub-woofer crossed over at 40Hz, and it's 3db drop off point is at 10Hz (no kidding) and is therefor only filling in the really low bass. I tried the sub crossed over up to 80Hz, and I thought it detracted from the wonderful things the MG944 does to the lower frequencies.

When running the MG944 by themselves you'll be happy with the bass, but if you need more, you really have no choice but to supplement with a sub-woofer. If I forget to turn the subwoofer on I don't get the "where the hell is my bass" feeling, but when I do turn in it, I'm like WOW, all that information way down there?

That other thread with the photo of your room, I too was going to recommend pulling your speakers out from the wall. I don't know anything about Titanium tweeter upgrades, but your speaker placement is probably hurting you. See if you can pull your current speakers out in 1' increments and see if your regular listening position sweetens. Typically with good speakers, it's not the speaker that's at fault, it's the speaker location and specifically the *room* itself that's hurting you. So even if you have to huff the speakers into the middle of the room whenever you listen, then huff them back to the corner when you're done, I'm betting that's going to make a big improvement on your sound, both with your current speakers, and the MG944 you have coming down the pipe!
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« Last Edit: 10/09/13 at 15:18:56 by Lonely Raven »  
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will
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Re: Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
Reply #2 - 10/09/13 at 21:57:57
 
cbauer,

As Lonely Raven has said, I guess you know corner placement of full range speakers does not fit accepted standards due to bass tendency to build up in corner, but also, it is difficult to control mid and high reflection patterns. This potentially messes with many frequency areas in the sound spectrum, and can really hurt soundstage development.

Since the horns are tucked right into the corners, and there is no notable bass buildup, I am guessing:

1) your horns may not go low
2) your room otherwise cancels bass frequencies
3) the horns are specifically designed to be against the wall/corner.

I actually have not tried my 944s right in the corners since this is frowned upon and I recall problems back in the day when we wanted BIG bass. But the guess would be that the 944 would be overly muddled in some areas of the bass and mid/bass, and this in turn makes the midrange and high stuff weaker in the balance, effecting soundstage.

That said, the 944 drivers and design make for a natural deep bass and for excellent soundstage development given good placement and room.

Sorry if you know all this stuff.

The room effects sound by how the waves bounce around and what happens in this process. By frequency, sound waves are different. They are like sine waves in shape with an up hump followed by a down hump and so on. They have specific lengths and heights by frequency. If in bouncing around in the room, the waves compliment one another (the humps line up), that frequency is amplified. If the same frequency waves overlap so that the wave humps are directly opposite each other, this will cancel the frequency. How they overlap is determined by reflections in the room and on room dimensions as they relate to these specific wave lengths.

When we put this in the context of roughly 20 Hz, to roughly 16,000 Hz, sort of our audible/musical range, and each frequency with its own wave length, we can easily imagine the difficulties in frequency balance that rooms can set up.

Anyway, the 'word' is, get those speakers out as much from the corner as you can.

There may be ways to get around corner produced issues. Speakers made for close walls, Auto EQ (like AntiMode 2), manual EQ, bass traps, first reflection absorption or diffusion...front diffusion or absorption and opposite in the back...or other targeted room treatments, or combinations...these are typical ways to deal with room stuff. Then there are more "esoteric" ways often based on similar concepts.

I know from experience that room modes can be a real challenge. But I am not that smart about it all, and the fine details of speaker design variations and the impact on walls are out of range for me. So I would get up with ZYGI about your questions.

The new DM945's with Passive bass stands are getting rave reviews so far from Decfest attendees. But if you are tied to your corners, I would talk with Steve and/or ZyGI before diving in.
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« Last Edit: 10/09/13 at 21:59:44 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Lord Soth
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Re: Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
Reply #3 - 10/10/13 at 07:13:43
 
Dear CBauer,

Have you tried tube rolling your existing equipment?

Based on my own experience, without changing anything else, changing the tube rectifier and power output tubes got me from a

Over boomy bass (Yucks)
To

No Bass (= Yucks)

To my current

Tight controlled bass (perfect!!)

I do agree with the other points raised too.
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ZYGI
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Re: Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
Reply #4 - 10/10/13 at 14:53:18
 
My take on things.....

With the set up like it is, the MG944 is the better of the two choices, in my opinion. The rear slot could be blocked off reducing the amount of bass overall and keeping it from the corner. All forward firing (conventional) driver configuration I would think be a must.

With that said....

If you could pull the speakers out into the room while you were serious listening, the new ERR comes with its own convenient handles built right into the top, making moving the speakers out very fast and easy. I did this for years in our first house in AZ and worked out well for everyone. And I didn't have convenient handles for ease of movement.

A corner is bad enough, but the piece of furniture that close to the corners of the room just make things worse. Again, my opinion!

Zygi
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All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers
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marky
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Re: Just ordered new speakers....please advise a newb!
Reply #5 - 10/10/13 at 16:09:10
 
Hi cbauer,
   the photo takes me back to my early days of `hifi` listening when everyone had their speakers just a few inches from the rear wall, though your speakers would have drawn admiration back then. It was all Warfdales, Dittons, Celestions, Goodmans etc Oh dear most of them just sat on the floor.  :) Like it or not, now that you`ve upped the amp class into the sonic stratas the bass is going need to breath. There`s a world of invisible waves just waiting for you to organise to your preference. Kinda groovy knowing you`re on the discovery road.
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« Last Edit: 10/10/13 at 19:00:13 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.BenzLP , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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