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Torii MK3 (Read 1629 times)
RJR
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Torii MK3
09/21/13 at 19:23:22
 
I have had my MK3 for about 9 months now and it sounds wonderful!!!  Though I have nothing to compare it with except when I had the Rachel for a bit.  The catch phrase "The last amp you'll ever want!" may not hold true with the MK3 since the MK4 is supposedly 20-30% better???  Maybe it is but I like the MK3 and not prepared to pay for upgrades, new tubes and shipping charges.  I want to improve what I already own.  I know, if you are an audiophile or just obsessed, you'll thirst for the last bit of % improvement at any cost.  Oh well.

Here is my system:  Flac>Squeezebox Classic>Channel Island Audio DAC>MK3>Omen Def.  I have upgraded speaker and audio cables.

1) Would a new power cable for MK3 improve system sound over stock one? How much do you really need to spend?

2) Where should I begin my tube rolling for the most bang-for-the-buck? If output, should I stick with EL34's?  Or 5u4 rectifiers?  I want to find and try 0b3's?  

3) Any other suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks



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will
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #1 - 09/21/13 at 20:24:02
 
RJR. You can definitely improve on the MkIII in many ways...but you are starting good with what you have. At the same time, everything matters with this potentially very revealing amp...everything...room, feet, cables, tubes, speaker placement and on and on....Can you explain how you would like your sound to change...what would make a better sound to you?
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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RJR
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #2 - 09/21/13 at 21:17:49
 
will,

Thanks and that is a great Q.  When I first heard my MK3 paired with Omen Def, the sound was flat, dull and, actually, sounded horrible.  I was frustrated and couldn't believe it.  But I found out that all recordings on CD's (I rip to Flac) are not created equal.  For example, Peter Gabriel So sounds great and Us is just dull and flat. Other recordings sound great while others flat. I upgraded my speaker cables and that made a bit of difference.

I listen primarily to Rock; 70's thru 90's.  I am trying to get a very good signature sound for Rock music and make so-so recordings sound better and good recordings sound great.  I realize there are many variables involved and I can tube roll and tube roll and tube roll...  I am trying to maximize my effort and keep costs to an acceptable minimum.  I just think tube rolling can get me to that place faster.
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will
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #3 - 09/21/13 at 23:46:38
 
So what are the tubes you are using? And where are your Torii controls...impedance switch, bias switch, treble and bass knobs.

Also, each system is going to have different characteristics depending on all the stuff involved. And then, even if you put the same exact system in different rooms, it will sound different, the rooms emphasizing or cutting different frequency areas depending on room modes and reflection patterns.

So more specific descriptors would help. Do you feel like the sound has a generally correct balance of bass, mid, highs, or if not...what's up. Does it feel overly clarified in any area, or overly muddy. Would you like brighter or darker/warmer midrange sound? Is the bass right... could it be tighter, looser, deeper....Is the midrange right or is it dark or bright, hard or soft... These sorts of descriptors...
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 23:51:06 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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will
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #4 - 09/21/13 at 23:52:11
 
Might as well ask what speaker cables and Ics you are using too???
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #5 - 09/22/13 at 02:51:22
 
RJR, you can definitely improve the sound with a different power cable than stock. Steve's power cables are very good. I've tried a lot of different power cables on my Mk III and they all add something.

I would also suggest considering having the capacitors changed to the Jupiter Beeswax. A very significant difference for the better for rock and any musical genre. I was expecting an improvement but the improvement was deeper than I expected when I had my Torii modded to these caps.

As for OB3. . .they are worth a shot. Before I got the Jupiter caps put in, I really only liked OA3 in this machine. But lately I've been listening to some OB3s and enjoy the change. I'm in a different room now with different needs and though I don't see myself ever using OC3 or OD3, I'm very happy with the RCA coke bottle shaped OB3s I have in now.
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« Last Edit: 09/22/13 at 02:53:32 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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orangecrush
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #6 - 09/22/13 at 18:13:01
 
Please don't get me wrong, I am sure the new changes in the Torii sound great and may be better the old one, however, I do wonder if (please don't get upset anybody) if part of the reason for changing the Torii is to separate it from the Rachel amp in the Decware line up. In other words, some clever marketing which is not a bad thing. Now a new tube set amplifier rounds out the mix offered. It seems as it will be presented as more of a KT66 amp that can also run El34, but won't sound as good as the KT66. Worthy of upgrading from Torii III? Not for me. The Torii, is the last amp I would ever want!

That makes me ever more curious now to try the Gold Lion KT77 (the bias is supposed to be the same as the el34) in the Torii III and also the more expensive Psvane EL34PH. I am waiting till winter, when I listen much more. A couple on the forum swear the Kt88 sounds better then the El34 in the Torri (can't find it now) but the bias won't be as close and even despite not using the CCE mod.

That said, its hard to beat the sweet midrange of the El34. If anyone should try the Gold Lion KT77, it should be you Lon  ;) as they say it provides more bass. However, it is also more linear, which to me means less mid range emphasis which I like.
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #7 - 09/22/13 at 20:23:24
 
Nice observations OC. Does have a unique slot in the lineup if the new tubes are emphasized. And it doesn't have meters. I still see neither the need for nor the appeal of meters on these amps.

To be honest I'm greatly in love with the sound of the JJ 6CA7 cryo'd tubes and not inclined to try any other tubes at this point. My new room gives me a different tonal balance and I no longer seek more bass. I'm like you, the Torii Mk III is the last amp for me at least for the near future, and I'm not going for a Mk IV. And staying with what I'm using right now.
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« Last Edit: 09/22/13 at 20:34:58 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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will
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #8 - 09/22/13 at 22:00:13
 
OC and Lon,

Interesting thoughts, though I am not altogether sure the theory holds up (but it could). After all, before the Torii Monos there were only two power tube types for the whole lineup. And the Torii MkII came out of the original Torii, and the MkIII was a refinement of the MkII.

Interestingly for the MkIV, the Monos and Mystery amps had become part of Steve's language...but the MkIV is clearly that...the next iteration of the Torii following the MkIII.

From my conversations with Steve the KT66 just emerged as a tube he was liking a lot in the MkIV as he was refining/testing/voicing. And as he went further with it, the more he seemed to feel good about it. He had done a lot of power tube play with the Mystery amp if I recall, and I bet this is what opened that tube exploration creative door wide as he got closer to finishing the MkIV. And that the EL34 works really well (it was the Torii design basis), and that the KT66 gave such a different and very compelling sound...the two amps for one is a a sweet thing.

Makes me wonder further about the KT77 in the MkIII too OC. I also agree with you both that the MkIII is so good that there is no real reason to go further for me...Luckily, I need another amp, something I have wanted for a few years now, and I am glad it will be the MKIV.

I hope you get up the nerve to try the other tubes OC! I did use the Gold Lion KT77s in the Rachel I had for a while...I think they took a loooonngg time to burn in, and I think they were very articulate and solid if I recall. Dimm memories.

RJR,

My questions are in hopes of steering you in the direction you want to go most efficiently. There are thousands of dollars of legitimate improvements you could make (power treatment, room treatment, cables, preamp, caps, vibration control, tubes, and on), but you clearly want the most for the least toward a more satisfying sound.

No doubt we can help steer you better with a better idea of what needs changing. There are so many ways to adjust the Torii!

My system sounds great with all kinds of music.
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DaveH
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #9 - 09/26/13 at 13:05:29
 
Hi all,
Just a brief note about my observations on my torii III V-Caps.  I believe the amp has matured enough to comment.  I have always used the treble control WOT(wide open throttle) from the get go and had to keep the bass control at approx 10-11 O'clock or bomminess would bare its ugly head. However, now after 9 months of use, the bass control is now WOT and the mids have opened up even further without the boom. Admittedly, my Gran Veenas do not like feedback so maybe I shouldn't be suprised.  The other major change I had made 4-5 months ago as per Steve's suggestion was to abandon the input 6N1P's and replaced them with a cryod pair of Ron Sheldon's Philips JAN 6922 / 6DJ8. Not top of the line but these now allow the EL34s to be driven to full power(which I need because we are only 90 db efficient) without the input tube  distorting and therefore causing EL 34 distortion befor it would clip. Is it possible that the much more efficient speaker systems never heard this as the 6N1P would never be driven hard enough to distort? Regards,  Dave H Smiley
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Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
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Lon
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #10 - 09/26/13 at 13:34:51
 
Hey Dave,

Glad that the amp has bloomed for you and allowed you to really enjoy the sound!

I have been using 6N1Ps from Ron Sheldon for some time and love them. Every time I try a 6922 in I just don't like the sound as well, and I don't seem to need any more power. But I know others really like the 6922 in these amps and I'm glad you have discovered a pair that lets you utilize all the power the Torii can dish out!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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will
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #11 - 09/26/13 at 17:49:23
 
Dave,

My particular Torii MkIII has distorted with 6N1Ps at too low a volume for me from the get go. This is with MG944s (94dB) and HR-1s (93dB). Luckily I prefer the sound of a number of other NOS 6DJ8s, 7DJ8s, and 6922s. I definitely can drive my Torii much louder with any of these...louder than I can handle.

Glad you are liking the amp! I love mine.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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DaveH
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #12 - 09/28/13 at 17:45:19
 
Hi Lon, Would you please comment on your experience with the 6 & 7 DJ8's vs the 6922 input tubes? Regards, DaveH Smiley
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Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
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Lon
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"Love without
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Posts: 6770
Re: Torii MK3
Reply #13 - 09/28/13 at 17:57:49
 
I don't have much to relate, it's been some time since I did some comparisons. I'd say the 6 and 7 were a bit leaner and drier. The 6922s I have used were generally more generous in the bass, but with a tizzier treble? It's been a while. I decided years ago that I really prefer the 6N1P type in my Mk IIIs and I have just stuck with those in my Mk II and my Mk IIIs. Just a better fit for my system than 6DJ8, 7DJ8 (I've only heard one pair of these I think) and 6922.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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DaveH
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Re: Torii MK3
Reply #14 - 09/28/13 at 23:00:35
 
Thanks for the reply Lon, Respectfully commenting, I have zero tizziness in the treble that I hear with my GV's, both pots WOT.   Wondering if its possible that it could be originating up stream? Maybe my ears have a different frequency response tolerance than others and I know we are all different in our perception of the delivered product. My insecurity tells me that maybe the more efficient product is the one to pursue.  BTW, I would enjoy meeting you all  at next years Decfest as this year is full of complications for me. Thank you as I enjoy the dialog.  Dave H
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Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
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