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NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC (Read 13633 times)
deucekazoo
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #60 - 09/25/13 at 22:27:43
 
Sorry to highjack this thread but from all the DACs you guys have or had a chance to listen to, have you had/heard the Shiit Gugnir DAC and how does it compare to the rest of these guys.
Thank you.
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maddog07
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #61 - 09/25/13 at 22:30:13
 
boy this thread has run the gamut, dacs, wires, burn-in, tubes, old-tech, new-tech – what’s left ?????
Audio Alchemy was what got me started down the outboard, hi-fi DAC road so many years ago.  So long ago.. I can’t remember exactly which ones I had.  The original DDE V1.0 I believe and then one after that, it was a two box setup that had a wooden cabinet that the two metal components fit in side-by-side as I recall… Whew.. had to dust off the memory banks for that one. Then along came Theta Digital… blew away everything I had owned or heard, and I became a Theta fan boy.  Still am actually… but since Moffat and Sinclair exited stage left.. not much of the “heart” left behind.  And I choose not to afford a Gen VIII – have never even heard one.  Though I have experience with the Gen V and Va.  If that DAC would provide me with the input and format flexibility of the Wyred, I would currently be happy with it sonically.. probably for a long time – certainly for redbook CD input.  
Someone has already mentioned “implementation”.  I would add “execution” to that.  For my ears, Theta house sound was more “life like” than anything I’ve ever heard – implementation and execution of the technology at the time.  And now Moffat is one of the two behind Schiit Audio.  I have a bud with a Bifrost and I have heard his system.. can’t really give a meaningful opinion there – his system sounds very good.. but I’ve never A/B’d his Schiit Bifrost to anything, nor had it in my system.  But I think it would be penny-wise for anybody DAC shopping to give the Schiit boys a look-see… 15 day audition period, 5-yr warranty.  If their functionality and cosmetics suit you.  I plan to as soon as I have time, which will probably be after the first freeze of the season!  There is nothing more enjoyable about this hobby, than discovering an inexpensive over-achiever that goes toe-to-toe with the "reviewers favorite" five figure component of the month...

On the topic of burn-in… I have found, in general, that the more “parts” there are in a component… not only does it take longer to reach its optimal performance when new, but each time its turned on/played as well.  And if you haven’t used the component for a long time, its practically like starting all over with the new break-in process again – for most, not all, gear.   I suppose that goes a long way toward explaining why some designers, especially solid-state, design their components with a “stand by” mode… where the component is really “on”, but perhaps just the final output stage powered down, etc.  I have a PS Audio P5 power plant.  One of the most interesting things I have found about this devices functionality is its ability to display the power being drawn by the components connected to it.  My Theta draws 45 watts in stand-by mode.  It draws 55 watts when it's "on" and playing.  My Wyred draws about 2 watts in stand-by - 4 when it's on.  This "green" switch-mode power supply technology isn't just whistling Dixie – it’s for real.  Anybody checked what their Torii draws at idle and/or at full song?  Might surprise you – you will at least find it interesting.

Stone… I think you are into “rez”.  I got one for you to give a go… get yourself a Class D Audio SDS-470c amp and put it on your SDA-SRS’…. Then sit back and brace yourself… I have never heard transient speed, snap, dynamics and rez like this from "anything" - sand based or valves - at any price.  It will flat-out scare you at times.  Your SDA's will need the bass brace connected to keep them from toppling over backwards!  I do not jest... and if/when you check out the price of one, you'll be even more stunned & amazed!

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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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AiDee
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #62 - 09/26/13 at 11:05:06
 
deucekazoo, there's some information over at head-fi.org about the Gungnir. Useful impressions were slow to come and thin on the ground though.

I've not heard it myself. Perhaps unfortunately, Jason & Mike announced their statement DAC before Gungnir was released. I think this had the effect of diluting impressions of Gungnir as many people bought it as a "fill-in" while they waited for the 'real' DAC! It's taken time for consensus to develop that it's a very solid unit for its price.

Maybe the best place to read about it is the 'pirate' site changstar. Go here  http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,933.0.html for a link in their 1st post to their spreadsheet where they compared several DACs using a quite well-defined set of subjective rating scales. Gungnir scored second only to the PS Audio PWD2 IIRC. Elsewhere, you'll find discussion about this and other dacs, and even some comment from Jason.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #63 - 09/26/13 at 12:14:06
 

I just skimmed several reviews of the  SDS-470c, and all of them pretty much repeat (though much more long winded) what maddog07. And at the price, I could buy one today....but it would keep me from getting a Torii....
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maddog07
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #64 - 09/26/13 at 16:30:29
 

Lonely Raven… OK... so you want long-winded?  here you go!  ;)

I don’t know what kind of speakers you have or anticipate having.. but if you have a pair of “Lowther” type speakers, i.e. single, full-range, high-efficiency type drivers with No crossover – you “Need” a Torii.  My brain could not “accept” what my ears were telling it, the first time my Torii was hooked up to a pair of these.  Then I remembered a little blurb I read in one of Steve’s white papers about the Torii’s circuitry and how it actually delivers more power into higher impedances.  In the Tori IV thread I started, Steve confirmed this again when I was asking about if the Tori IV retained this characteristic of the Torii III – cause I DO NOT Want to give up this trait in my Torii III – read on…..  This completely explains what I have been experiencing… most of these types of full range drivers have rising impedance curves in the bass frequency range.  My particular drivers, Audio Nirvana Super Cast Frame 12” Alnico’s impedance starts rising at about 200hz and reaches a peak at about 54hz according to the curve published by the manufacturer.  And these drivers, powered by my Torii have “weight” in the mid-bass/power region that just about has to be heard to be believed.  This is a sonic match-made-in-heaven.  And not just in the bass region either.  Piano, stringed instruments, voices, are “in the room”, scary real.  And there is astonishing PRAT… transient speed, snap, resolution way into hearing slap-echo off the back of the recording studio walls, the performers amps humming, singer wetting their lips – we’re talking serious “rez” here.  There are plenty of highs too… but not to the level and caliber you experience, with for example, a Heil AMT or good ribbon tweeter.  This is not the Torii’s fault, this is the nature of full-range drivers.  But you won’t notice this unless you do an A/B.  But at this point, a guy is just “looking for things” – it’s not something you will ever “notice” when enjoying music played thru this combo.  I know this sounds like a bunch of reviewer blathering.. but I’m hearing music I’ve owned for decades “for the first time”.  

The Torii exhibits a bit of this nature with every speaker I’ve hooked it to so far – including my Martin Logan electrostats – yes… that’s right, the Torii will drive the Martin Logan’s.  Not to the same volume levels as my higher power, solid state, muscle amps, but to a comfortable level.  But the Torii mated with single full-range, high-efficiency drivers, no crossover is a step up into a whole nother league… sound that is “right there” with the best I’ve ever heard – anywhere – at any price – cost no object.  I believe this “more power into higher impedance” characteristic of the Torii is also a common trait of OTL amps as well – which I have no personal experience with.. yet - but that is on my bucket list, since Transcendent Sound is practically in my backyard.  

Anyway the nature of the Torii about power into higher impedances, is as I understand it, basically opposite of most amps.  Especially solid-state amps, where the design goal, for whatever reason for the last few decades seems to be for the amp to deliver more current into lower impedances – I think the engineers call this a “true voltage source”, where if the amp will put out 100 watts into 8 ohms, it should put out 200 watts into 4 ohms (doubles down).  Of course you have to look at the given drivers frequency response overlaid on its impedance curve to be able to predict how it will sound… but let there be no doubt, that the Torii “was made” for the crossoverless, single, full-range, high sensitivity type drivers/speakers.

Where the Class D Audio SDS-470c amp excels is with more conventional types of speakers(more on that in a moment).  Of course, I’ve hooked the SDS-470c to my full-rangers…just to see how it sounds.  And they have even more transient snap, “jump factor” and rez than with the Torii.  But the full-rangers exhibit a serious lack of bass driven by this amp.  Yep.. that’s right, the 25 watt Torii has more bass than the ubber power Class D… “on this type of speaker”.  So though the full rangers have high power magnification rez and dynamics that will scare you when driven by the SDS-470c.. the whole balance of the sound is “off”… sounds too light, thin, forward, bleached out – no “flesh on the bones”.
On the contrary, the Torii just sounds so “right” and balanced top to bottom on the full-rangers.. it just can’t be denied – fluid resolution that will keep you up way past your bedtime on work nights listening when you should be asleep.  Your spousal unit traveling to your listening room multiple times… “turn that down”… “are you going to come to bed tonight!”….  be prepared for relationship stress if you get a Torii and some high-sensitivity full-rangers.

Now… another combination that is in the same “OMG” league as the full-rangers/Torii combo, is the Class D SDS-470c and Magnepans.  I have had a soft-spot for Maggie’s for decades.  But as anybody who is very familiar with them, knows.. they can be a bit lacking when it comes to dynamics and “lively” sound.  Though the newer models are much, much better than the older ones.  Any who… I have a friend with a pair of 3.6’s… after I was able to finally “wrap my feeble brain” around the SDS-470c’s sonic abilities and my brain could accept what my ears were hearing, I called him up and said Stephen… you gotta hear this $695 amp on your Mags.  So I picked up the little 20lb SDS-470c and tucked it under my arm and headed out.  About 30 seconds into the first song played with the Class D driving his Magnepan 3.6’s… the party was over.  He has now sold his big Pass Labs amp.. and purchased two SDS-470c’s(he has multiple systems).  The SDS-470c replaced another well known, highly regarded solid-state muscle amp in my own stable also… but I’ve probably already done enough “name dropping” to ruffle feathers, so I’ll cease before making it any worse.

So… Lonely Raven, if you have or are attaining a Decware speaker or any speaker, similar in design concept to a Decware speaker… get the Torii – and never look back – you just probably can’t do much better than this combo – similar probably – but better – hmmm… hard to say.  You might have to search a long time, and part with lots of $$ and endure lots of frustration along the way.
If you’re contemplating some other more conventional, multi-driver speaker with a crossover and a more common(i.e. lower) sensitivity that is not really compatible with a Torii… you might ought to give the Class D Audio SDS-470c a listen before you spend more.

I think Stone.. needs to hear an SDS-470c on his big party-animal Polk’s – and report back to us.  I used to have a pair of 2.3TL’s myself…. They were/are a fun speaker – specially for high SPL events.  I suspect the larger VMPS models might mate well with the SDS-470c also… and as I’ve recently experienced, it is “the amp” for Magnepans.  I have another friend with 1.6 Maggie’s and the Class D brings them to life also, but the SDS-470c was a freakin’ revelation on the 3.6’s.

I also acquired a 1990’s vintage pair of Klipsch’s a couple months back.  They have some issues… need the xovers rebuilt for one thing I suspect.. the 23 yr old caps are probably shot … and I probably need to replace the diaphragms on the tweeters and maybe the squawkers too.  I hope to get to this project over the winter.  I hooked my Torii to them and I think this could be another good match.. but the speakers had a terrible “awk”, cupped hands coloration in the upper mids/lower treble… xover issue is my suspension.  Just haven’t had the time to futz around with them yet.  Suffice it to say.. the Torii/full-rangers combo blew the Torii/Klipsch combo into the dust.  And I know the problem Is Not with the Torii…
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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beowulf
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #65 - 09/26/13 at 23:08:51
 
@ maddog07

Hmm, I have the Omega's which have Louis' latest full-range crossover-less drivers.  At 8 Ω and 95dB they can easily be driven by Decware's flea watt amps such as the Super Zen to very loud levels ... I wonder how they would sound with the Torii? Shocked
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maddog07
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #66 - 09/26/13 at 23:52:31
 
Beowulf...

I had an SE34i for a bit before the Torii.  I was also at the Zenfest and heard all the Decware gear last year.  As best as memory serves...and I can correlate, as I did not have the "exact" same speakers paired with the SE34i that I do with the Torii... but they were very similar.  The SE34i was more laid back sounding overall.  Some would say smoother, more "gooey" thru the mids.  And I do not remember(did not notice) it having nearly the kind of bass the Torii is producing in my current, xoverless, full-rangers.  And I feel pretty confident that I would have noticed...  because that is the very first thing I noticed when I first heard my Torii driving my current speakers.. it was a profound difference that would grab your attention immediately.
Steve could probably give you a pretty definitive answer to your quandary.  Another forum member Rivieraranch I think might be able to shed some light on your question also.  He has vast experience with most of the Decware amps and maybe even the same Omega speakers.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Lon
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #67 - 09/26/13 at 23:56:15
 
My experience with the SE34i and Torii Mk II and Mk III match maddog's --the Integrated has a warmer, smoother, sound, less bass impact and more forgiving nature. This with Decware speakers. I imagine a similar difference with the Omegas, but can't say for certain as I have not heard them. I'm in love with Decware speakers and will have them as long as I can.

To be honest, I slightly prefer the Integrated sound. But love the power on hand with the Torii--the Integrated didn't quite have enough cojones for my (then more than now) needs.
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« Last Edit: 09/26/13 at 23:57:24 by Lon »  

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stone_of_tone
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #68 - 09/30/13 at 18:55:02
 
Man, you guys have been rockin' this thread...I will read and catch up with the other posts. This is a great time to be into top notch equipment like Decware & the available DACS out there... .

Okay, I have had the Anedio D2, going head to head with the NAD M51 for 4 days now...and I love the added "AIR" it is providing over the NAD M51. However, I moved the M51 to my bedroom system today, and I am liking it with my Kimber Hero, Zen Styx & SE84CS! ....As you eluded to Lon, I think I might regret returning the M51, with its future capabilities. I am keeping it in the bedroom system and will see what the future holds for it, startng with the HDMI input(s) for Blu-Ray music etc...for starters.  

Well, I have to say I am going to the Dark Side in my Listening Room. My research paid off on the Simaudio MOON W5.3 SE Amplifier, run directly from my AA gear or the Anedio D2 with my reference cables. I just added the PS Audio AC-10 today, and that bumped her up a notch too. This Amp is effortless and has a smooth top end like my SE84CS...but with the muscle that will scare you!

To add to it.....I am purchasing a pair of Legacy Audio FOCUS SE Speakers. (NEW)....  ...yes, the Focus SE will be delivered by a Tractor Trailer, in a crate....on a pallet to my Home.

I will finally have what I want in 3 different Listening environments. My Reference Solid State in my Listening Room. My wonderful SE84CS & CKC Reference Tube, in my Bedroom....and my Polk SRS SDA 1.2's in the Living Room with HSU MBM 12, for solid Hi-FI.    -S
PS-notice: I said Hi-Fi...on the Living Room System -not-Reference, like the Listening Room or Bedroom....but the Living Rm Sys...is a lot of fun!
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« Last Edit: 09/30/13 at 20:40:51 by stone_of_tone »  

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Lon
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #69 - 09/30/13 at 19:03:47
 
Wow. Happy for you! Hope your happiness grows!
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maddog07
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #70 - 09/30/13 at 19:48:01
 

Stone...

I think you and I must have crossed paths in another life or something.  In addition to having owned a pair of SDA-SRS 2.3tl's long ago.  I also had a pair of Legacy Focus' in the mid 90's.  I traveled up to Springfield and met Bill and ended up getting a pair Focus'.  I was strictly a SS guy back than and could never get them to get "holographic" or do the "imaging thing", which seemed to be my sonic priority at the time, so I eventually moved on.  But from a tonality and dynamics perspective, they would have been tough to beat.  And despite all those drivers, they were very easy to drive and they were also very efficient.  You might want to try your flea-watt amps on them just for fun when you get a chance and see how they sound.
Year before last, I ran into Bill at RMAF again.  We listened to his Whispers driven by an all AVM (class d amps) system as I recall.  Legacy is into recording now too, and he had their own demo disc.  There is a drum kit track on this disc that is the most realistic sounding recording of a drum kit I have every heard – ever.  Via the Whisper/AVM combo, it literally scared some show attendees and it even startled my buds and me – and we knew it was coming.  If Legacy still has copies of this disc available, I would recommend to all that you get a copy.  Legacy was giving away copies at RMAF and I got a copy.  We used it at other exhibitors rooms at the show all weekend long.  Every exhibitor who heard it, either went themselves or sent somebody down to the first floor ballroom where Legacy was exhibiting to get a copy.  One exhibitor even tried to buy my copy – no way jose.  Just be careful with the volume control... as it will test the dynamic range of "any" speaker and "any" amp made.
I could see myself enjoying a pair of Legacy Whispers someday… if I can get past the WAF – they are huge.. not to mention their $$$$.

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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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stone_of_tone
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #71 - 09/30/13 at 20:11:02
 
I think you're right maddog.....deja-vu'...we have met before.

The reason for my 3 environments (regarding your post)....no one System does it all....so I need 3! Actually, 4.....I have Klipsch RF-7 II's in my garage....fun as strip club for free....my one neighbor stated. We had a couple girls dancing that night....um....yea... .

The NEW Legacy Audio FOCUS SE just recently bumped up to the ALL full Air Motion Tweet's...... . I wish I could make RMAF this year!

YES! I am aware of that drum kit track. Their is a equivalent to pick up...I found on their Website...if I can't get that one. You also hit the nail on the head...that my two flea powered amps...might actually drive these speaks.....and CERTIAINLY Steve's new Mystery AMP will.... .

I plan on bringing the Mystery Amp across my threshold....in 10 to 18 months from now.

I understand the WAF thing. So, I divorced her....and now I just have the NGFIYDEMHYCBR!
New-girlfriend-&-If-You-don't-except-my-hobby-you-can-be-replaced! -S
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« Last Edit: 09/30/13 at 20:45:24 by stone_of_tone »  

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maddog07
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #72 - 09/30/13 at 21:02:40
 
you're singing my song....  yep - no perfect speaker for all kinds of music and rooms - after 30 years of chasing the holy grail.. I finally came to just accept that.  So now I only have "two" systems/rooms actually; the HT and the 2-ch rig in the man-cave.  But I have 5 different pairs of speakers for the 2-ch room, and a few amps also, so I can swap in whatever is floatin' me boat at the time.  I try to keep only one stable front end(pre and sources).  But manage to stray from that objective too often.  
I think you and I are in a similar place.... I just regret it took me so long to get there !!  Thankfully.. I didn't have to replace the spouse along the way!! Shocked  She has her "things" that I have to tolerate also... so we compromise... 32 years now...!!
mostly she just rolls her eyes  ::) when it comes to anything audio related.  Like heading up to Zenfest this weekend - she thinks I'm nuts!
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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stone_of_tone
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #73 - 09/30/13 at 23:07:54
 
Good for you maddog, I am jealous....32 years is awesome. I was married for 21 years and have 4 children I am very proud of.

Enjoy Zenfest!  I am compromising too.....I can't make Zenfest this year...taking the girlfriend to Cable Wisconsin to enjoy the good beer, food and the FALL Foliage.  -Stone
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Sony as Transport
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Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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kana813
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Re: NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC
Reply #74 - 09/30/13 at 23:51:58
 
"no one System does it all"

I think I could live with this set up:


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