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New Torii MKIV (Read 28333 times)
maddog07
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New Torii MKIV
08/21/13 at 19:18:48
 
OK... that cat's out of the bag, Steve has announced there is an impending debut of the Torii MK-IV.  So who knows anything about it?  
Anything.. its cosmetics, what's changing, etc.

Inquiring minds want/need to know.!!!
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Greg12
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #1 - 08/21/13 at 19:40:31
 
Just saw that email too.  It says there will be a sound improvement over the III,  hopefully most of the improvement will be due to the Jupitor caps which i paid extra for on my III.  If that's the case, then I'm set.  (tho something tells me there will be more to it than that.)

Greg
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Torii MkIII, DM945/Companion Bass cabinet, Oppo 105
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maddog07
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #2 - 08/21/13 at 20:02:58
 
yeah... me too, I suspect there are more "changes" than the caps.

my Torii was built before Jupiter caps became a part of the equation...
I was hoping the next gen Torii... would have "meters" on the front, controls on the front, and the connections on the back - too.

I sent Steve a note... begging for clarification and details... and that I started a thread on the subject.  Maybe he will throw us a bone here..
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jsm71
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #3 - 08/21/13 at 21:25:40
 
I have been on the build waiting list for a couple of months now for the Torii MKIII and just noticed that my order was changed to the MK IV as was all the others on the list.

I did have a conversation with Steve early on and he indicated that I would be getting the upcoming changes.  The only two he spoke of at that time were the Jupiter caps as standard and changing over to the black top plate.  I was pretty happy about both of those so I didn't ask if there was going to be anything else.  Hopefully Steve will chime in.  

I also haven't seen any change in status for my order when many after me are almost to shipping on other products.  I know the other products may be less involved to build but the Torii orders seem to have been stalled somewhat.  Maybe that means more changes are in line?   Is this part of the "fun"?  
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maddog07
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #4 - 08/21/13 at 23:12:41
 
Steve responded to my inquiry about the MK.IV just a bit ago.  He said, "there will be more info and pics in about a week if not sooner"... so stay tuned.

also he said the MK.III will be upgradeable to MK.IV... so us current Torii owners won't get left holding the bag on our obsolete amps!   Grin
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #5 - 08/21/13 at 23:55:02
 
Good news about the "upgradable" (though I bet my earliest one is not upgradable). Bot my Toriis have the Jupiters, so I may not need any upgrading.
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Greg12
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #6 - 08/22/13 at 00:20:23
 
FYI For anyone else looking at this thread that is not on the Decware mailing list,  Steve said the new Mark IV  will cost several hundred $$ more than the III,  but if you get your order in before he updates the site in a week or two, he'll let you have the IV for the  current MKIII's price. Pretty cool.

Greg
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« Last Edit: 08/22/13 at 00:21:52 by Greg12 »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #7 - 08/22/13 at 22:20:15
 
Here is the Torii MK III



Here is a Torii MK IV...



Here is what I have done in the Torii MK IV.  One side as pictured is completed and the amp is waiting for me to finish the other side.  As you can see I've improved the layout a bit.  Here are the changes made so far:

  • I have deleted the bias switch for the output tubes.  It never did much in the MK III and is not needed in the MK IV.
  • I have increased the gain of the input stage by about 20% giving the amp more slam and tighter control
  • I have eliminated the adjustable bass dampening control, no longer need it with problematic speakers due to the next change.
  • In place of the adjustable bass dampening control I have created a re-constructive feedback circuit that improves clarity, detail, and definition at all frequencies.  It is on a switch so that you can use it or not use it.  (everyone will likely use it)   This mod replaces the bypass caps that were on the cathode of the input stage.  Those caps eliminated the naturally occurring local negative feedback in that tube.  Instead of a bypass cap, I use the output transformer in series with a couple networks that float the output stage above ground slightly.  The result is less phase angle distortion resulting in better transparency.  This was an accident, that turned into another discovery.  It's one of the cooler things that's happened in the past couple years and it will be fun to here peoples impressions of it as they get their MK III's updated.
  • The input switch is now centered behind the volume control.  
  • The power switches are now rocker switches vs. toggle switches.
  • The chassis can now accommodate either a single volume control (as shown) or a volume control for each channel.
  • The chassis is now steel with our new textured black powder coat finish and weighs 6 pounds more than the aluminum it replaced.
  • Beeswax caps are now standard.
  • The treble control has been redone and now makes only a very slight adjustment to the treble above 5K, whereas before it was capable of cutting all the way down to 500 Hz.  The result is a bit more air.


And that's about it.  

Steve
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #8 - 08/22/13 at 22:36:54
 
Wow, some interesting changes and some great innovations. It's going to be a killer diller and a seller!

Congrats.
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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #9 - 08/22/13 at 22:39:44
 
Thanks for the update Steve! Also new power supply configuration???
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« Last Edit: 08/22/13 at 22:40:39 by will »  

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Rivieraranch
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #10 - 08/22/13 at 23:52:11
 
What is the price?
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #11 - 08/22/13 at 23:59:23
 
iF you order before the website is updated (soon I would suppose) it's the same price as the current III. Steve says he will honor that price until he launches the new web page. With the new page will be a new price. . .a larger price.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #12 - 08/23/13 at 01:17:59
 

Grrr, I'd have to sell several of my other "toys" to fund this, and I don't think I want to dent one hobby to fund this hobby. Time to start saving!
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tgarden
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #13 - 08/23/13 at 05:44:50
 
I'm also very glad to hear that the Mk III is upgradeable to the new MkIV.

As soon as Steve says it's ok, I'm sending my MK III in for the upgrade.
I wonder if the aluminum chassis will be swapped for the new steel one, as part of the package?

Not looking forward to hearing what the upgrade costs, but I'm sure it's worth it:)

Mike

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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #14 - 08/23/13 at 05:51:31
 
Dear fellow Decware fans,

Always had my eye on the MK 3.
This is the "push" I needed.

I'm finally placing an order for the TORII MK 4! Smiley

Dear Steve,

If you are reading this, do I have to order the Beeswax caps as an extra $$$ option for the MK 3?

Or will the upgrade be done automatically, i.e. for free?

Likewise for the stepped Attenuator option?

Do I have to check every upgrade option on the MK3 order page?
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« Last Edit: 08/23/13 at 06:02:01 by Lord Soth »  
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #15 - 08/23/13 at 11:12:39
 
LS,

Here is what Steve sent in his email that is pertinent:



The LIST so far - Price Increases
OK -  Here's how it works.   Whenever we come out with a new product, those people on our build sheet with standing orders are automatically upgraded to the new model at the old model price.

I am obligated to charge what 's listed on the web site, so until I have time to update the site, you can buy these new more expensive models at the current prices.

We are now finishing the CSP3.  This new model will likely cost a few hundred bucks more.  You can order a CSP2+ from the site now, and lock yourself into the old price.  We are still running over 8 weeks, so you'll have plenty of time to discover the options it now comes with and modify your order if need be.  Remember, we don't charge until the units are ready to ship, so you have some time to arrange funds.

The TORII MK III is days away from becoming the TORII MK IV  and this is really big, because we've figured out how to make it sound even better if you can believe that!  The new amp will come standard with beeswax caps and there will be a significant price increase.  Get your TORII ordered now before I update the web site and save yourself a few hundred bucks minimum.

The Super Zen has been a great success, but became as good or better than the Zen Select, which was designed to be and upgraded version of the Regular Zen Triode.  So we have also updated that with meters, and many internal improvements so that it is indeed a step up from the SuperZen as it should be.  Again, if you want one, order the SE84ZS and you'll automatically be upgraded to the new model without the couple hundred dollar price increase!

The main thing is to get your orders in as soon as possible before I get the site pages updated.  This will secure your position in the list and lock you in at the old price.   I can answer questions about the changes and options by e-mail or phone once your order is placed.  We can easily tweak your order to achieve the configurations you want so no need to panic about options.  I'll work with each one of you individually.
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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #16 - 08/23/13 at 14:02:58
 
Hi Lon,

Thanks.

I'll just "lock in" an order for the Torii Mk 3/4 and discuss the options later with Decware.

Now the long wait begins.....

Will likely pair up the amp with some new Zu speakers too. Smiley
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #17 - 08/23/13 at 14:49:31
 
Probably great sound.

I'm going to hang tight with the two Mk IIIs I have. . . or try to. Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #18 - 08/23/13 at 17:51:49
 
The beeswax caps will come standard on the new Torii MK IV so you do not have to check that box on the MK III order page.

Stepped attenuator(s) will be an option on the MK IV just like on the MK III, so if you want that, you'll have to check the box.

The difference in price between the stock MK III and the stock MK IV will probably be around five hundred bucks, so right now that's what you'll be getting free.



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tgarden
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #19 - 08/23/13 at 18:40:23
 
Steve,  Many thanks for your continued work on the Torii series!  It's so nice to see a great amp being brought to an even higher level.

I just spoke with Sarah (happy birthday!) who talked to you about sending my Torrii III in, to be upgraded to the Torii IV.  I'll send it in Sept. 3, the day after Labor Day.

I look forward to the big upgrade!

Thanks again for your great work on Decware amps and speakers. Your equipment has made the quality of my life, much better.  

Mike

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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #20 - 08/24/13 at 01:20:46
 
Dear Steve,

Thanks for the clarification on ordering the Torii MK 3/4.

Hope you are much better now.

I was just listening to music on my CSP2+ (with Beyer T1) way way past midnight.
I just could not pry myself from the music.

If I were listening to the new improved CSP3, I might probably be put into a trance for the rest of my life! Smiley

Thanks for making such great audiophile pieces of art affordable to the "average joe" like me.

I look forward to the same if not greater musical bliss on external speakers.
I'd think I'll put the rest of my household into a musical trance when the Torii MK 4 arrives. Wink

Cheers!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #21 - 08/24/13 at 16:25:49
 
Lord Soth,  What Zu Audio speakers have you listened to and with which Decware Amps?  Please give your impressions. I recently bought a Taboo MK III and a pair of Audeze cans.  I ordered a pair of Zu "Souls" to pair with the Taboo plus the new CSP 3 ordered the day Steve sent his letter. I have to admit I am very close to ordering a Torii MK IV too.....what made you pull the trigger?  Thanks, Mark.
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Longbowbbs
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #22 - 08/24/13 at 22:26:34
 
So, Steve...How about a headphone jack option for the new MK IV?
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Lonely Raven
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #23 - 08/24/13 at 23:46:07
 

Anyone know if Steve charges the credit card right away, or when the amp ships?

What's the wait time typically for these amps?

I'm trying to get a feel for how quickly I'd need to get the money up for one...the more I listen to my vintage Zen amp and MG944, the more I want a little something with more Oomph!

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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #24 - 08/25/13 at 00:08:01
 
LR...Check Lon's post above quoting Steve's email.

From Steve:

"We are still running over 8 weeks, so you'll have plenty of time to discover the options it now comes with and modify your order if need be.  Remember, we don't charge until the units are ready to ship, so you have some time to arrange funds."
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« Last Edit: 08/25/13 at 00:08:42 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #25 - 08/25/13 at 01:14:57
 
This is great news! I'm definitely getting my III upgraded when available.  Anyone know how much the upgrade from III to IV would cost if you already have the jupiter cap upgrade?
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tgarden
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #26 - 08/25/13 at 01:39:10
 
Neilwill,  Steve does not have a price yet on the upgrade.

I'll be sending my V-capped Mark III to Decware in a week or two, for the Mark IV upgrade, and I'll post as soon as I find anything on the cost.

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #27 - 08/25/13 at 03:47:16
 
I don't know what the price or structure will be for the upgrade to a MK IV yet.  I still have to decide how much I want to change on a MK III.  I'll likely separate the mod into two or three parts.  That's all I know right now.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #28 - 08/25/13 at 04:05:08
 
Steve,  Thanks for the info!

Mike
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TESTING
Reply #29 - 08/25/13 at 04:17:37
 


TESTING THE MK IV

I couldn't wipe a dirty little grin off my face tonight as I walked out of the listening room while the Torii MK IV simply kicked the crap out of a MK III.  

Sadly this was not the case 24 hours ago after my second listen, (the first one fooled me).  There was an incredible magic that the MK III had never even grazed before and now it might have to go away!  There were issues with the bass and with it's usable power that would have killed it if not for spending all day in bed meditating on all the possible solutions.  The solutions worked and tonight was all about tuning the values to achieve the desired result.  Basically, solder, lift 40 lbs amp, hook up, play, unhook, lift, solder and repeat... 42 times so far.  Remember this is actual listening room testing, not initial tuning in the bench rails.

Anyway, when you hear this mod you'll understand that no other amplifier in the world could ever sound like it, and I was desperate not to let that go, despite being in taboo territory once again with the circuit design.  The experience was kind of like finding a chunk of gold in the ground that was too big to lift out.... too good to be true.

And since the MK III was getting bested by the Mystery Amp, this has the Mystery amp pretty nervous... well see what happens in the next amp wars.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #30 - 08/25/13 at 04:31:18
 
Very Exciting Steve. Looking forward to more reports!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #31 - 08/25/13 at 05:06:21
 
Steve, It sounds great!  

You can do as many of the Mk. IV mods on my Mk. III, as you feel you are able to.  
I've got no problem with my amp being a guinea pig/test subject.

Sure glad to see you keep finding new ways to improve the Torii.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #32 - 08/25/13 at 09:55:22
 
Dear Mark58,

I intend to pair up the Torii MK4 with a pair of Zu Soul Superflys (16 Ohms).

Nope, I have not heard this actual combination per se (i.e. with the Torii MK3).
What I have read from the Zu website is that these speakers were designed to be paired with tube amps, i.e. the traditional low power and high Ohm type. So in theory, it should work. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Wink

I am simply relying on the GOOD reputation of both Zu and Decware.
Will post impressions a couple of months from now when both the amp and the new speakers arrive.

As for what made me finally pull the trigger on the Torii MK4?
Some months ago, I was ready to purchase the MK3.

That is because I came across numerous posts from owners of the MK3 stating that the sonics bested anything they have heard before, and those are $$$$ rich audiophiles who play with uber expensive low power WE300B SET amps.

Now given what a progressive company Decware is, I knew that it was a matter of time before the MK4 model would turn up.

I sure that an MK5 ... 6 and so on will eventually be produced.

But in the meantime, I trust Steve / Decware's audiophile ear.
So anything that sounds as good or even better than an MK3 is a no-brainer, i.e. "must buy" audiophile item for me. Smiley
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« Last Edit: 08/25/13 at 14:30:19 by Lord Soth »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #33 - 08/25/13 at 16:43:14
 
I've been on the build list now for the prior MKIII for about 9 weeks and I was getting concerned when it looked like there was no activity for any of the MKIII orders.  Having heard about Steve's accident and model change brings that into focus somewhat.  Waiting still sucks.  

The new look with the black chassis really does it for me and that change I really applaud.  Steve, given that I'm the highest on the build list for the MK IV does that mean that I will be getting the first one????   Smiley

Scott
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« Last Edit: 08/25/13 at 16:46:05 by jsm71 »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #34 - 08/25/13 at 17:26:59
 
I couldn't help myself, been thinking of one for months, so price rise and new model is enough for me to jump in. Only hope the Mystery amp doesn't make sad, thinking I've gone for the wrong amp. Volume shouldn't be a problem, I'm thinking of getting Klipsch RF-7 II, at 101dB sensivity the Torii MKIV should have no problems driving them to loud volume, just hope I get some nice bass from those 10" woofers Smiley
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Zu Loudspeakers with Decware Amps
Reply #35 - 08/25/13 at 18:16:03
 
The North American Sales Rep for Zu loudspeakers has been using Decware amps at the shows to demonstrate the Zu speaker line...  I have yet to run into a Zu owner who didn't like the paring.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #36 - 08/25/13 at 18:17:05
 
Steve, thanks for the engineering upgrade notes and the pictures (keep those coming).  Will the MK IV still retain the basic design principles?:
All class A operation
Zero feedback
PP, but no ultra linear operation
SET sound as the goal
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #37 - 08/25/13 at 18:17:45
 
JSM71,

Indeed, this is what the delay was about.  Monday I plan to give the go ahead to start production on the MK IV amps, so if you're the first one on the list of upcoming Torii builds, then I guess you'll be getting the first one!

-Steve
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #38 - 08/25/13 at 18:23:35
 
Thanks for clarifying my questions.  I'm pretty excited.  Please excuse me, I think I just pee'd my pants. Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #39 - 08/25/13 at 19:15:10
 
I'm starting to get "Amp Envy".
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #40 - 08/25/13 at 19:27:56
 
Steve, can the Torii MK IV get a headphone jack?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #41 - 08/25/13 at 22:14:02
 
Maybe they can make one with a red base for Donnie.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #42 - 08/25/13 at 23:05:03
 
How about a red top?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #43 - 08/25/13 at 23:22:58
 
A red base or top is a rattlecan away!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #44 - 08/26/13 at 00:18:57
 
I've never seen red wrinkle paint.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #45 - 08/26/13 at 00:55:18
 
I was hoping to see the final specs and pricing on the Mystery amp first.  I was holding out on the Torii MK IV until next year, but with the price increase and upgrades, I may just have to pull the trigger for the Torii before the website is updated.  Talk about decisions.  

Hey Steve....is there any way you can hold off on the price increase until after Decfest when you debut the Mystery Amp.  That way guys like myself who are teetering between the Torii and the Mystery Amp will get a better idea of what we will want to buy.

A recent conflict is preventing me from coming, but I will be tuning in online.  

Thanks,
Dom
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« Last Edit: 08/26/13 at 12:19:47 by Dom »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #46 - 08/26/13 at 20:08:49
 
Steve...

please let us know when you will be accepting MK.III's for the IV upgrade.  And also the details of the update, ie; time, cost, how do we get in the queue, etc.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #47 - 08/27/13 at 01:31:40
 
Quote:
was hoping to see the final specs and pricing on the Mystery amp first.  I was holding out on the Torii MK IV until next year, but with the price increase and upgrades, I may just have to pull the trigger for the Torii before the website is updated.  Talk about decisions.  

Hey Steve....is there any way you can hold off on the price increase until after Decfest when you debut the Mystery Amp.  That way guys like myself who are teetering between the Torii and the Mystery Amp will get a better idea of what we will want to buy.

A recent conflict is preventing me from coming, but I will be tuning in online.  

Thanks,
Dom


What you may not realize is that you can place your Torii Order now and secure the current price and your position in the list.  If you decide to change the order to the Mystery amp before your Torii is built, we'll keep your place in line and build the Mystery amp instead.    Alternately if you take delivery on the Torii and decide during the 30 day trial you would rather have the Mystery amp, we'll build you one and you can keep the Torii until the Mystery amp is delivered.

Steve
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #48 - 08/27/13 at 01:38:34
 
Talk about working with the customer; this is unprecedented! Go, Steve!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #49 - 08/27/13 at 03:19:10
 
What you may not realize is that you can place your Torii Order now and secure the current price and your position in the list.  If you decide to change the order to the Mystery amp before your Torii is built, we'll keep your place in line and build the Mystery amp instead.    Alternately if you take delivery on the Torii and decide during the 30 day trial you would rather have the Mystery amp, we'll build you one and you can keep the Torii until the Mystery amp is delivered.

Does the "order queue" mentioned above apply to those with III's updating to 4's?
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #50 - 08/27/13 at 04:21:34
 
Steve....thank you!!  I did not realize that I was able to do that.  AWESOME!!.This is one of the many reasons why Decware sets themselves apart from the rest.

I have to say that my new ZStage put life into my music. It not only made me realize just how good the Decware product line is, but how Solid State just sucks!!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #51 - 08/27/13 at 14:31:12
 
This will be my first valve amp, waited, saved and hopefully picked one that I will love, my workmates wen't the other way! Chinese, one is going back to solid state amp, can't get any volume from his speakers (I know, he needs more sensitive) he is running old Wharfdales, the other said he has lost his bass!!!  I really hope this Decware amp will help them see the error in their ways. Already one has had to replace 4 tubes, running way to hot, had to get IT person to adjust so it runs cooler, no way would I be putting my NOS 1960's valves in something like that. They are so jealous of my Decware Mono Preamp. Hopefully this setup will last me lifetime (I'm over 50) so not to long.
Love the internet site, lots of info. Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #52 - 08/28/13 at 12:37:24
 
dalerf, what is a Decware Mono Preamp? Huh
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #53 - 08/28/13 at 13:22:19
 
Sorry, Decware model ZP3 phonostage amp. Auditioned some speakers today, Focal Chorus 836v, Jamos, and Klipsch F30 (theatre speakers) as they don't stock RF series, using Vincent hybrid amp.
Even the salesperson was surprised how much more details the Klipsch speakers were, considering they were the cheaper then the other two. No brainer, if the F30 sounds like that, then the RF7's must be better, made my mind up, never heard horn speaker before, so much more detail it leaves the other two for dead, even more bass, and tight, the Jamos sounded a bit distorted, not clear bass, and the Klipsch only needed number 2 on the volume knob, and then turned up blew the roof off, clear as, no distortion. And this was listening to sterile CD's, imagine vinyl, yum Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #54 - 08/28/13 at 15:44:55
 
Hey, i read somewhere from Mr Steve (I'm 21 and from an asian country thus the slightly abnormal Mr) using the MK4 with janszens.

I'm currently considering a pair of speakers to go along with the MK4 and im stuck between the janszens or decware hr-1/ dm945. I'm not from the states so auditioning them is not a choice.

Im hoping for some brief impressions from the owners of these lovely speakers.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #55 - 08/28/13 at 15:49:46
 
Of the two I own a pair of HR-1s and have another pair paid for and waiting to be built. If you can afford them, they'll likely be the last pair of speakers you need to buy for a system. I love the ERRs as well, and in some ways, with some material, i love the more "out of the box" or "box less" sound the ERRs can provide. But the HR-1s have both a conventional and an unconventional sound blended together seamlessly and they are so cohesive and dynamic that they seduce you right into the listening space and the music just flows out and around you. An immersive and sensory experience. The more I've listened to them the more I've loved them.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #56 - 08/28/13 at 18:21:15
 
I have attended the Decware Zenfest and heard all their speakers, including the HR-1's.  They are very good and if I could only have "one" pair of full-range speakers, that were "reasonable" in size(high WAF) and that pair of speakers had to be from Decware, the HR-1's would probably be it.  

However... I must say I was quite smitten by the big, smooth, holographic sound of the DM945's at last years festival also.  945's driven by a Torii, Eva Cassidy played back thru this combination, will bring tears to your eyes!  Though I don't necessarily need a monitor sized speaker, I was so impressed by their sound, that I in fact have a pair reserved with my name on them, that I will be picking up at the Decfest in a little over a month.

Don't know if you're into DIY speaker building or not, but I'll share my recent, first experience at it.  I just completed my first DIY pair of speakers, that are a single, full-range, high efficiency driver type - I used Audio Nirvana Super Cast Frame 12 inch Alnico's in a 5.6 cu/ft box, ported(think huge cabinets).  Nothing special about the cabinet, other than I made it pretty rigid(about 100lbs each) and so that I could easily remove the front and rear baffles for tweaking and experimentation by loosening dozens of socket head cap screws.  The front is covered with about a 1/2 of felt, and then covered with faux leather.  Driven by my Decware Torii MK.III... I'm not sure I've ever heard "better" sound.  There is 100% no doubt that there is some serious synergy magic between the Torii and speakers with no passive xover parts in them.  The Torii "hints" at its abilities on every speaker I've connected to it, including my Martin Logan Vista's, but when strapped to a crossoverless type - hang on - you're going for an unbelievable ride.  These speakers have "far" exceeded my expectations and they are a pure joy to listen to.  
What a speaker like the HR-1 or the ERR's will do, that a conventional forward firing box speaker will not - is give you the increased "ambiance" of the omni-directional drivers.  And this exact "characteristic" of sound has motivated me to my next DIY speaker project, which is a hybrid Hawthorne Audio Trio, which is an open-baffle speaker.

don't know what you're budget is, or the size of your room, but I don't think you would be disappointed with 945's... even if you eventually decided to obtain something more ambitious in design and cost.  You'd probably never part with the 945's.  But if you're looking for the "one", "do it all", "last" speaker purchase - you might ought to go for the HR-1's.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #57 - 08/28/13 at 18:57:48
 
I own the JansZen zA2.1s.  These are very different from the HR-1s but wonderful.  This question was posted in the Torii MK IV thread, and I will be getting this amp as my first Decware amp.  At 25 watts/channel it will be able to drive the JansZens to good listening levels, but not drive the speaker to its limits.  I know this going in with open eyes.  The JansZens are NOT high effeciency speakers.  That has to be understood if you are also considering a TorII MK IV.

With that out of the way, I won't trade these speakers just because I can't maximize their output with the amp.  I've gradually moved from cone speakers (Thiels) to magnetic planars (Magnepan) to Electrostatics (JansZens), each time taking realism and transparency to a higher plane.  IMHO electrostatic transducers are without peers in this regard.  Even tinkering at a hobby level almost anyone can get the correct sound from stat panels.  Designing a great ESL with good frequency range and bringing it to market is the challenge.  

After the Maggies I didn't want another large dipole planar.  The JansZens are small (38" tall) and front firing, unlike virtually all other ESLs.  They are easy to move and place for good sound.  In this respect both these and the HR-1s are good speakers to live with.  The JansZens twin woofers are very responsive and lightweight. With a simple first order crossover at 500Hz they are easy to drive and blend extremely well with the two ESL panels that are also stacked vertically in the cabinet.  

I think their sound is amazing and I expect to get even more from them with the new Torii.  My high power solid state amp actually sounds wimpy in comparison to the Torii, especially in the bass.  I did get a chance to hear the combination using a friend's Torii III, which made the buy decision a no-brainer.  Due to their 87dB sensitivity rating the Mystery amp or the big Monos will likely drive them better yielding higher output levels, but I'm going to give the MK IV a full chance to win me over.  I don't listen at high levels.

The JansZens are a bit more money than the HR-1s, but David Janszen has discounts for buyers in new geographic markets which would level that difference enough to turn it into a choice of two different approaches.  I would call David or email him directly if you have questions.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #58 - 08/30/13 at 13:56:59
 
Well I finally made the move to buy the New Torii MK IV after reading Steve's reply.  While some of the features on the MK III are going to be eliminated, I am sure that the MK IV will be just as kick ass!!  While I will not be able to compare one vs. the other, I really like that the MK IV will have blacker backgrounds.  Needless to say I am super excited!!!

One question....do any Torii owners have an optional mono RCA output for a sub?  If so, is it worth adding when my Velodyne sub already has a line level input and output (in addition to a mono sub input)?

If adding the mono output on the Torii will alter the signal path and change the sound signature of the unit, then I will not opt for the addition.  

Dom

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #59 - 08/30/13 at 17:18:58
 
drive your Velodyne sub via the "speaker level" inputs, with an extra set of cables off the binding posts of the Torii to the Velodyne.  You can read a lot of "theory" on the www about why driving a sub with speaker level inputs is "the best" way sonically - so I won't delve into it here.. just google it and be prepared to get a headache reading about it.

Now, for a practical answer for you - I have driven two Velodyne Optimum 12 subs at the same time(stereo subs), via their speaker level inputs fed from my Torii III with great success with multiple pairs of speakers.  Obviously only one pair at a time, but what I'm saying, is I've used the subs driven via their speaker level inputs from my Torii with several different speakers.  It works, and it works well - no issue at all.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #60 - 08/30/13 at 20:47:46
 
Thanks Maddog07 for the insight...it's greatly appreciated. My powered Velodyne sub is a 10" front/12" down firing.  Has nice punch and is perfect for my application. The two missing pieces are a good DAC and efficient speakers..but that  will have to come at a later point.

D
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #61 - 09/03/13 at 20:55:47
 
My Torii Mark III is back at the Decware shop, for the Mark IV upgrade.  

I have zero idea what it's going to cost (keeping my fingers crossed on that) or how long it's going to take, but I hope that Steve will be able to implement most of the improvements that the IV version offers.

I was going to send it back for the Jupiter cap upgrade anyway, and I waited and waited...now I'm glad I did wait a little longer.

Really looking forward to hearing what it sounds like!

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #62 - 09/03/13 at 22:15:19
 
Well, if it helps (probably doesn't) I think it cost me about 600 to have my Mk III updated with Jupiter caps. A lot of money. And worth it big time.
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« Last Edit: 09/03/13 at 22:15:41 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #63 - 09/03/13 at 22:28:35
 
Hi Lon,  I'm sure it'll be worth it.  Just a question of how much of the upgrades Steve decides to do.

There are definitely some wiring changes, from what I see in the photo.  Some if it involves removing existing stuff, vs. adding new things.

We'll see!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #64 - 09/03/13 at 22:39:58
 
Lon, are sure it was $600?  I had my MkIII upgraded to Jupiters for $300.
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Torii MkIII w/jupiter caps, Tonian Classic 8.1 S speakers (98db, 16 ohm), BMC Audio BDCD 1.1 cd player, Synergistic Research Powercell 6 SE, Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator IC, Synergistic Research T2 SE & T3 SE power cords, Auditorium 23 speaker cable
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #65 - 09/03/13 at 22:43:15
 
You got a great price. Yes. It was returned for a minor repair as well (and to be honest I'm not sure that was done, as the problem persists, and would have been warranty anyway). Mine is one of the first ones made, so that may have been a factor, I don't know.

Let's put it this way, I'm pretty sure the total was over 600 dollars, I can't remember if it was with shipping or before shipping. Reasonably sure that's the cost. But worth it to me, the amp came back sounding significantly better.
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« Last Edit: 09/04/13 at 01:17:25 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #66 - 09/04/13 at 01:29:32
 
Not that this helps out, but the Torii III webpage "currently" shows a price of $250.00 for the Jupiters when ordered at the time of purchase, and $500 for the Vcaps.

I sent mine back to Decware last year, and paid $500 plus shipping, for the Vcap upgrade.  The shipping + box charge adds up, too.  I triple boxed mine last week, and it cost $70 to FedEx it from Seattle to Decware.

Sorry to hear you're still having a problem with your Mark III, Lon.   I hope you can get it sorted out in the near future.

Mike.



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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #67 - 09/10/13 at 18:21:23
 
It seems that many of the people sitting on the fence have jumped on the order list, if for no other reason than to hedge their bets.  I was notified that my MK IV status is now "Shipping" which is pretty exciting.   Smiley

I looked at the full build list and of the 55 orders on the list, 23 are for the Torii MK IV.  Is this the usual response when Steve releases a new product, especially if ordering now saves some money?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #68 - 09/10/13 at 18:41:45
 
People do like to take advantage when Decware offers a discount on a new product.  

It sounds like you may have one of the very first MK IV's made.

You should have a lot of fun!

Mike in Seattle area
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #69 - 09/10/13 at 19:21:19
 
I'm sure Steve is keeping the first fully complete unit around for himself, but I do believe I'm getting the first one shipped to customers.  Unlike many customers I won't be able to compare it to other models as this will be my first Decware piece.  I have heard the MK III a few times, but it wasn't mine.  I'll probably check in with everyone once I get it unpacked and working just to relay initial impressions.  

Scott in Cincinnati
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« Last Edit: 09/10/13 at 19:22:26 by jsm71 »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #70 - 09/10/13 at 19:37:58
 
I'm sure you'll like the amp.  Remember to give it at least the 25? hours initial burn-in time (5 hours on, 5 hours off) before you start forming any impressions.  Things will change.

And having owned a Torii I, II, and now a III (currently being upgraded to a IV by Steve),  my experience is that it takes a few hundred hours or more before the Torii's are "mostly" broken in.

Lastly, I would use the stock tubes for a least a couple hundred hours, to get a feel for the amp, if you are planning to try out other tubes later.

Hope this helps!
Mike
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« Last Edit: 09/10/13 at 19:39:24 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #71 - 09/10/13 at 20:11:57
 
Mike, your advice is consistent with other accounts I have read.  I'm not that much of a tinkerer and tend to trust the designer's choices on stock setups.  I will definately put a few hundred hours on the original tubes for sure.  If I like the sound of something I tend to treat it as not broken and I'm in the camp that believes different isn't always better.  

Controls are another story however.  In some respects I like that a couple of the controls have been taken away from the MK III.  Less to drive me crazy with trying to get right.  I have both bass and tweeter controls on my speakers and even after having them about a year I still toy with the tweeter setting because it is pretty sensitive.  I have already told myself to keep my hands off everything while things are breaking in.  

Scott
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #72 - 09/10/13 at 21:35:37
 
That is exciting Scott!

The new treble knob on the MkIV might be just the thing to fine-tune your speaker treble control. Looking forward to your impressions.

Have fun!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #73 - 09/13/13 at 02:12:32
 
Wohoo! The first official picture of the TORII MK IV !!!



As you can see it is now compatible and boasting a happy blue glow with the optional KT66 output tubes - recommended highly!  These hand picked Tungsol KT66's are a $100 upgrade over the stock EL34's.

We are now shipping the first ones!  Sadly for us the web site has not been updated so it is still selling the Torii MK IV at the MK III price.  Put another way, we are shipping the MK IV to all MK III orders at no additional charge despite this new amp being more expensive.


A larger image is available here:

http://www.decware.com/newsite/images/TORIIMK41900.jpg

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« Last Edit: 09/14/13 at 04:02:22 by Steve Deckert »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #74 - 09/13/13 at 02:27:59
 
What the heck, just ordered the Torii MKIV. I have been lusting after this amp for way too long. Now I have some stuff to sell I think....
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« Last Edit: 09/16/13 at 02:33:52 by hdrider »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #75 - 09/13/13 at 02:31:36
 
Any word on the cost of the upgrade?   Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #76 - 09/13/13 at 02:32:37
 
It looks sublime!  

Now that you've officially confirmed the optional use of the KT66's, I'm going to order a quad for my Mk III to Mk IV upgraded unit.

I wonder how the cryoed Genalex KT66's would work in this new amp?

Mike in Seattle area
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 02:35:08 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #77 - 09/13/13 at 02:48:04
 
What about the Hazen modification? I don't think it would work with a KT66.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #78 - 09/13/13 at 02:57:53
 
I bet I could heat my house with that thing! Nevertheless I want one BAD! But I'd have to sell a child to come up with three grand right now Wink
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #79 - 09/13/13 at 03:20:56
 
and i thought i was content...beautiful work Steve.

JD
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #80 - 09/13/13 at 03:33:29
 
Whats the point of using KT66 instead of EL34?
would it get more power out of the amp?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #81 - 09/13/13 at 04:57:53
 
Steve,

With upgrading the to the KT66 tube, I am assuming that you lose the Hazen grid mod?  How would you compare the sound of the EL34 vs. the KT66 in the new Torii?

Since this will be my first Decware amp, I have no real reference point and would love to get your input.  While I will probably swap out and try the KT66 tubes at some point, your insight would be greatly appreciated.


Dom
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #82 - 09/13/13 at 06:00:26
 
My MkIII is sounding better than ever, and this is part of the problem. If it ever went down for repairs, I would be hurting since I listen a lot every day and can't listen to my old amp after Decware.

I am afraid I fit fully into the Decware description: "therapy for audiophiles." So I got on the MkIV list the other day. After the Torii power through my HR-1s, the Rachel is just not enough for me with demanding music. It sounds amazing, but for my music collection and preferences needs more efficient speakers. After talking with Steve, the MkIV seemed the only logical conclusion for me for my second amp. Glad to have a look at the beauty! Thanks Steve. One Torii will go with my 944s and one with the HR-1s...How lucky am I!

I will leave it to Steve to tell us about the amp sound with the EL34s and KT66s, but for a little taste of the option....

late last week Steve said the MKIV sounds great with the KT66, hazen grid aside, and compared to the EL34s (also sounding great) each creates a signature of notably different character but both very good....both up to Steve's careful listening standards is what it sounded like to me. I did catch the "recommended highly" in reference to the hand picked Tungsol KT66s in Steve's post though! Sounds pretty cool to me!!!

I am really excited!
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 06:08:42 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #83 - 09/13/13 at 06:07:13
 
Will,  I'm glad to hear you got on the MK IV list.  I'm uncertain what your musical listening preferences are, but I'm sure this will end up being an incredible "all around' amp for you.  And...two tube types to tailor the sound.

Musical therapy to the max!

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #84 - 09/13/13 at 06:19:36
 
Needless to say I am super excited myself with buying a new Torii.  I added the stepped attentuator, but something is telling me that I will be in line for the KT66 tubes...esp. with that blue luminous glow.  
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 06:22:11 by Dom »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #85 - 09/13/13 at 06:51:42
 
Yes the luminous glow appeals to me too Dom! And I have loads of EL34s. Can't wait.

Thanks Mike. "Therapy to the max." Decware has made my life a lot better. Having played mostly acoustic instruments for many years, I always enjoyed decent audio gear, but until Decware it never fully "caught" me. With this stuff (and equally good compatible stuff) ....the sound is so natural and real for me that even though my body won't let me play anymore, listening at this level is a really good creative alternative to playing.

Mostly I listen to old school small jazz groups from old players...the usual suspects, with a huge comfort factor lately in Chet Baker and Gerry Mulligan, and some later jazz players, like Archie Schepp (at least his chill stuff) and Patricia Barber....specific "world music" players like Ayub Ogata, Susanna Baca, Virginia Rodregues, Marta Gomez, Zap Mama...several Bosa Nova old and new...Afro-cuban, still love some of the more heart felt Irish traditional....many of the less dense and mantra-like ECM musicians like Anouar Brahem...simpler classical music, mostly baroque and often solo or maybe viol de gamba and voices...simple choral music, like Trio Mediaeval...and I still love to hear Dylan, Young, Cohen and the like...also the occasional Morphine... some more electronic like Massive Attack, Gotan project, Suba, some Bugge Wesseltoft and EST....and on and on....lots of different stuff.

Once the bass material gets big and deep, and the big compressed dynamics kick in, there is nothing like a little power with the HR-1s! Toriis are so good!
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 07:07:04 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #86 - 09/13/13 at 16:38:35
 
Does anyone know if the wait time to upgrade our MKIII is the same as buying the new model? I am tempted to sell my MKIII and use those funds toward the MKIV but the thought of being without an amp for months is scary! I guess that will also depend on the cost to upgrade.  
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 16:39:22 by RoyMercer »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #87 - 09/13/13 at 17:11:54
 
I'm with RoyMercer... I really, really, don't want to put my MK.3 up for sale and get in the queue for a totally new MK.4 and be without a Torii for potentially "months" - disaster! Embarrassed

Steve & Co. don't keep us existing Torii MK.3 owners waiting - or leave us out in the cold!!
How do we get "in the queue" for the upgrade? and what do you think the turn around time will be?
Maybe we can flush more details out of you at Zenfest coming up, but do you have anything you can share with us now?

Can the Torii MK.4 use EL34 "Or" KT66's interchangeably?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #88 - 09/13/13 at 17:35:56
 
I'd suggest emailing Sarah about the upgrade and the logistics. . . .
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #89 - 09/13/13 at 17:45:55
 
maddog said: Quote:
Can the Torii MK.4 use EL34 "Or" KT66's interchangeably?


This is what I understand to be the case. Two amps for one! From Steve's post with pic: "These hand picked Tungsol KT66's are a $100 upgrade over the stock EL34's."
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 17:46:56 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #90 - 09/13/13 at 18:35:39
 
Like many I am hooked by the blue glow and the shapely bottles.  That aside, I'm very curious if the KT66 brings more output.  I'll be on the fringe of acceptability with the stock 25 watts.  If different tubes can urge even a couple of watts more out of the amp that would weigh stongly in me considering them.  I'll be running with the stock EL34s for sure right out of the gate.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #91 - 09/13/13 at 18:38:16
 
Yes. Call Decware...In my experience, repairs and upgrades are handled differently.

I have experienced a quick turnaround when upgrading my SE84C+ and Mini Torii.
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« Last Edit: 09/13/13 at 18:38:51 by busterfree »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #92 - 09/13/13 at 20:31:28
 

Quote:
Any word on the cost of the upgrade?

We're doing one now and it looks like the bill is going to be around $700 not including tubes.  That will turn a MK III into a MK IV with cryo treated beeswax caps.


Quote:
What about the Hazen modification? I don't think it would work with a KT66.

The Hazen Grid Mod will have no effect on this tube.

Quote:
With upgrading the to the KT66 tube, I am assuming that you lose the Hazen grid mod?  How would you compare the sound of the EL34 vs. the KT66 in the new Torii?


The Hazen Grid Mod takes advantage of the internal construction of the EL34 to make it a better sounding tube, and it does.  With the circuit changes in the new MK IV, the KT66 is a better fit resulting in an even better sound.  The presentation is far better balanced and you get the full range of the volume control without any clipping.  Due to the increased voltage swing we introduced into the phase inverter and input stage, EL34's have more gain than they did in the MK III.  The result is an amp that is at full power with the volume control barely hitting the half way mark...  it can be a little aggressive.

Quote:
Does anyone know if the wait time to upgrade our MKIII is the same as buying the new model? I am tempted to sell my MKIII and use those funds toward the MKIV but the thought of being without an amp for months is scary! I guess that will also depend on the cost to upgrade.


Upgrades are typically a two week turnaround, however, if everyone with a MK III sent them in right away, the wait could certainly grow.

Quote:
Can the Torii MK.4 use EL34 "Or" KT66's interchangeably?


Yes, it can ship with either one.  The TORII MK IV has a new toggle switch that allows you to adjust the bass to perfection with either tube.

Quote:
This is what I understand to be the case. Two amps for one! From Steve's post with pic: "These hand picked Tungsol KT66's are a $100 upgrade over the stock EL34's."


This is absolutely correct, the MKIV is a completely different amplifier with either set of tubes and it would be like owning two different amps.

Quote:
Like many I am hooked by the blue glow and the shapely bottles.  That aside, I'm very curious if the KT66 brings more output.  I'll be on the fringe of acceptability with the stock 25 watts.  If different tubes can urge even a couple of watts more out of the amp that would weigh stongly in me considering them.  I'll be running with the stock EL34s for sure right out of the gate.


The KT66 brings a few more watts to the table, yes.  It also has less gain, meaning you have to turn the volume control to a higher position to reach the same loudness as you do with EL34.



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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #93 - 09/13/13 at 20:40:17
 
Some more pics of the changes...



The white knobs are the redone treble control. The effect of this control is so subtle now, that MKIII owners will think it doesn't even work.  It makes a small adjustment from about 8 kHz on up.

The silver toggle switch next to it is the new reconstructive feedback switch. Probably the coolest feature on the whole amp. Reduces the phase angle and dramatically improves presence. It's on a switch because it's success or failure is based on the speaker load. Show it the wrong load (especially with EL34's) and it will squeal like a stuck pig (osculate) For example, plugging a pair of headphones into the speaker jacks instead of speakers with this switch on would cause the osculation. Turning the switch off would stop the osculation.  

The switch directly centered behind the binding posts is the impedance switch for the speakers.  Same as always, can be configured to 4 and 8 ohm or 8 and 16 ohm speakers.

 
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #94 - 09/13/13 at 20:44:50
 
Front view changes:



The toggle switches to the left and right of the volume control are the bass switches the control how tight the bass is on a given set of speakers with either set of output tubes.  On the MK III amps there will only be one switch that does both channels at the same time instead of two as shown here.

The center toggle switch between the small OC2 tubes is now the input switch allowing you to select between the two sources.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #95 - 09/13/13 at 20:53:31
 
Quote:
Due to the increased voltage swing we introduced into the phase inverter and input stage, EL34's have more gain than they did in the MK III.  The result is an amp that is at full power with the volume control barely hitting the half way mark...  it can be a little aggressive.


Does this imply that the EL34s are being run hard with more heat?  Also, does this mean that running without a preamp would make volume adjustments a little more touchy?

Quote:
The KT66 brings a few more watts to the table, yes.  It also has less gain, meaning you have to turn the volume control to a higher position to reach the same loudness as you do with EL34.


Care to estimate how many more watts?  Which tube works harder in this amp?  Are there any implications to one lasting longer than the other due to the way it operates?  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #96 - 09/13/13 at 21:21:46
 
Neither tube is being run hard in the amp.  The EL34 is an easier tube to drive, that is why it develops more gain than the KT66.   The added gain of the EL34 would make using a preamp touchier than it was on a MK III, meaning smaller adjustments to the volume control to effect the same changes to level as before.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #97 - 09/13/13 at 21:25:23
 
I'm glad to hear the first MK III to MK IV conversion is under way.

The price of around $700 to upgrade from a MK III to a "two amps in one" MK IV, sounds very fair.  No complaints from me!

Mike in Seattle area

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #98 - 09/13/13 at 22:13:59
 
If you just got your MKIII upgraded to Jupiter caps will this lower the total cost of upgrade for your amp?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #99 - 09/14/13 at 01:55:54
 
"The chassis can now accommodate either a single volume control (as shown) or a volume control for each channel"

How do I order this option and KT-66 tubes for the MKIV on the currenet MKIII order form?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #100 - 09/14/13 at 02:09:01
 
Kana,

Welcome back. Steve said earlier to order a MkIII and then MkIV build will be automatic and specifics can be sorted out later, with plenty of leed time before build time. The Jupiter caps are standard, and we know the KT66 upgrade is 100.

I would just put what you want in the message box of the order form and ask Sarah to let you know pricing details for the extra volume control as they become available along with the approximate build date so you can be sure all is well when it comes up.

This is what I would do anyway if you want to get a place in line locked in. Or call.
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« Last Edit: 09/14/13 at 02:10:49 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #101 - 09/14/13 at 04:05:39
 
Thanks Will.

Just submitted the order.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #102 - 09/15/13 at 03:35:19
 
UPDATE:  MORE LISTENING TESTS

I had an interesting evening with the TORII MK IV last night.  I played it on my corner horns, which for that amplifier are a worse case scenario when it comes to bass at high volumes. Since the amp likes to put out more current into higher impedances, horns of this design can get a touch boomy.

This very tendency of the amplifier to sound boomy on the corner horns makes the other 12 pair of speakers in our listening room sound better than they actually are…  but nevertheless, it is the worse case scenario you have to design for, so on we marched for the next four hours with the MK IV on the corner horns.  

The new MK IV bass switch really alleviates this tendency with these speakers, so it was of course on the entire time.  And after shifting to more demeaning material, the positive feedback switch was turned off, dropping the dynamics slightly and allowing me to crank the amp a bit harder. Then during the acid test, I used electronic music which has wall cracking low bass at high SPL due to massive compression, I even switched speaker taps with the speaker impedance switch to the softer setting.   These three adjustments kept things tight and clean as the evening matured and the material continued to get more and more challenging.

It is interesting to note, that after four hours I gave up on the EL34's and installed the KT66's that I designed the MK IV to favor. The TORII's tendency to get a little over the top on these speakers had now disappeared and the amplifier became as linear as if there were feedback applied. The midrange and top end and bottom end are virtually perfect now, and at any volume. Nothing changes from modest volumes to louder playback levels and there is a very apparent increase in overall headroom and power.  

Naturally, this was a real thrill as I was well into hour five and playing my challenging tracks to see how well the amplifier maintains it's usable power. Suddenly this simple tube change made everything  twice as good, and I realized I didn't need the speaker impedance switch on the softer setting anymore… so I switched it back and everything got 3dB louder, even fuller, much deeper, and without a trace of strain. It was truly a wow moment…  

Things are getting really fun now… so sucked into the recordings with this latest bust of flavor, another hour went by and I realized I didn't need the bass tighten switch on, so I turned it off. Everything was still fine, nice and tight, but now suddenly even deeper. Again not a hint of strain. It was wow moment no. 2, and I have to say that things are getting amazingly loud without sounding bad… quite the opposite in fact.  (this is btw the epitome of usable power).

Another half hour went by and I realized I hadn't turned on the positive feedback switches yet. So, without further ado, I just turned them on. This was more like a holy-crap movement where I just stood there in the sweet spot of my horns in disbelief at the presence… not to mention the room shifting dynamics that simply felt real.

Ratcheting the performance and sound up three times like that I'd have to equate the experience to a drag race, where you come out of the gate with a nice wheel stand, wind it out and then hit second gear followed by a nice long pull and then hit third gear. You get a little sideways for a moment with the meat on your face pulling back toward your ears from the aggressive pull until everything is a blur… and you then float into your out of body experience. So, clearly the TORII MK IV is a competent space ship like it's predecessors all were, but this one has gears!  

Moral of the story, Tungsol KT66 = MK IV… Just do it.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #103 - 09/15/13 at 03:58:31
 
What is this Wow/holy crap moment number 4! I'm in!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #104 - 09/15/13 at 04:17:23
 
Thanks for the update Steve. I spent approx. $1,500 stocking up on NOS EL-34's. Do you think there is an improvment upgrading the MK3 while still using EL-34's?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #105 - 09/15/13 at 05:09:45
 
I have two matched quads of NOS Siemens EL34's for my MK III, which is in the Decware shop being transformed into a MK IV.

Looks like I'll be switching to the KT66's:)

Mike in Seattle area

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #106 - 09/15/13 at 06:10:45
 
Mike,

I look forward to your impressions of the MkIV transformation. Who knows, those Siemens EL34s might be just the things for your "second" amp!!! Nice tubes, but not a particular fav of mine (I seem to like them all in the right company). So many things make up a system though so who's to know!

Right now in my room the MkIII with cryo'd Mullard EL34 reissues, Amperex orange PQ 6922s, Phillips 5R4YGS, Marconi OB3, and Raytheon OC2 is just blowing my mind...but the secret ingredient is the CSP3 with a 50s GE/RCA 5U4G-ST, Brimar 6BQ7As, and an ERA (Mullard) 6Dj8. My God, now I have 8!!! tube sets to play with.

I am not giving up on the EL34 just yet! But I have not heard the MKIV yet either!
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« Last Edit: 09/15/13 at 17:03:33 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #107 - 09/15/13 at 06:39:40
 
Holy Blazing Blue Bottles Batman!! Set me up with the KT66's!!  

While I was going to run the EL34's for a while, I may just have to say screw it and add the KT66's to my order, based on Steve's post and recommendation.

Steve...that sounds like a great out of body experience.  I truly can't wait to get this beast home and enjoy my music all over again.

D
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« Last Edit: 09/15/13 at 06:56:05 by Dom »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #108 - 09/15/13 at 13:45:38
 
These tests show that that amp still has plenty of flexibility available despite having different controls than the MK III.  That's encouraging.  Steve was doing all this playing with his corner horns, very different speakers than mine.

I wonder if any of those adjustments would be appropriate with my JansZens.  Those I'm sure give the amp a very different look.  Because of lower sensitivity I'll be working to urge the most power from the amp that I can but maximize the sound quality as well.  It looks like those KT66s will be in my future as well.  Exciting experiments await.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #109 - 09/15/13 at 18:52:06
 
Good point, he said that in regard to the amp with his corner horns. In an earlier post he said the Torii IV kicked the crap out of the Torii III while showing a photo of the IV with EL-34's.  I am thinking now why care. If Steve says it's better you know it will be. I wonder if the mod includes a new black chassis or if they will re-use our white ones. After seeing the black I think it looks much better. Plus it won't show dust / dirt as much.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #110 - 09/15/13 at 19:08:28
 
I'm fairly certain the Mk III to Mk IV upgrade will be reusing the original white aluminum chassis, after my talk with Sarah a few weeks ago.

Mike
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« Last Edit: 09/15/13 at 19:09:34 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #111 - 09/15/13 at 19:08:41
 
Quote:
Thanks for the update Steve. I spent approx. $1,500 stocking up on NOS EL-34's. Do you think there is an improvement upgrading the MK3 while still using EL-34's?


I think there is yes, unless you prefer a softer signature, then there would be nothing wrong with keeping the MKIII a MKIII. Beeswax or VAPS are the logical upgrades for a MK III if you want to kick things up a notch without changing what you already have.

Also, bear in mind this listening test was primarily about pushing the amp to define what it's usable power is. At more normal levels, or on regular speakers, EL34's sound wonderful in the MKIV. It's just that I prefer the KT66's slightly softer sound and more even frequency balance when I'm pushing the amp a bit.

Steve
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« Last Edit: 09/15/13 at 19:12:28 by Steve Deckert »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #112 - 09/15/13 at 19:19:10
 
Steve,  Thanks for your clarification about the EL34's!

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #113 - 09/15/13 at 19:37:23
 
Ditto... thanks!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #114 - 09/16/13 at 02:50:42
 
So at what point will be have a complete fact sheet on the Mk IV, I am getting kind of dizzy flipping back and forth through all the postings to ingest all this data. I have flipped back and forth between biting the bullet on a Torii or just staying put with what I have. It's not a crappy system by any means, it's just that when I put the SE84SE and it gets broken in again, it's SO BLOODY MAGICAL within it's little 2 watt window. Now that I have ordered the Torii IV and am faced with selling off my pre-amp, power amp and dac, get the new amp and get it broken in. Need to break out my old preamp for the phono section (must use my new Decware SUT which is GREAT) which will be interesting until I can order the Decware phono pre-amp. Exciting times we live in, heh??? Thank you Steve and Team Decware for all you do!!!!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #115 - 09/16/13 at 03:16:29
 
Forgive me if I missed posts regarding what appears to be different (silver) chokes on the new MK4.  My MK3 has black chokes that match the black transformer bells.  Just curious what is different about the chokes in the photos and if there are plans to keep all the magnetics black - which I kind of prefer.  Sounds like a lot of us have some decisions to make.  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #116 - 09/16/13 at 04:41:25
 
That is a good question. I like the look of the non-painted coils in the back. I would be happy either way but it would be good to know how the unit comes new and what happens when a unit is sent in for upgrade.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #117 - 09/16/13 at 20:09:20
 
Quote:
That is a good question. I like the look of the non-painted coils in the back. I would be happy either way but it would be good to know how the unit comes new and what happens when a unit is sent in for upgrade.


I 2nd that motion.  what are the differences between getting our 3's upgraded to 4's, versus getting a Torii that was "born" a 4 to start with?
  • Does the white top plate of the 3 get replaced with a black one in the upgrade?  
  • Are any of the transformers/chokes replaced?  
  • Does the upgrade include the new Jupiter coupling caps, or is that optional/extra costs?

give me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

At this point I can't decide whether to upgrade my III or sell it and buy a IV.  Of course... having not heard the IV yet, only makes it that much harder to decide what course of action to take.  In reality, probably shouldn't do anything until 1) either I've heard the IV with my own ears, or 2) some other folks have had a chance to hear the III .vs. the IV and start reporting in.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #118 - 09/16/13 at 21:29:35
 
Steve has stated that the upgrade will include Jupiter caps. (Which is a very worthwhile upgrade for the Mk III--I've had that done and I don't feel inclined for several reasons to upgrade to a Mk IV).
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #119 - 09/17/13 at 00:26:21
 
The white aluminum plate of the 3, does not get replaced with the new black steel plate in the conversion to the Mk IV.

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #120 - 09/17/13 at 04:57:57
 
UPDATE: LISTENING TESTS

Evaluations don't just happen in one evening, so to be objectively fair during this contest between the MK IV and the Mystery amp I am on night three with the MK IV reviewing material I have examined dozens of times on the Mystery Amp, and frankly the MK IV is so good, it's making it almost hard to remember what the mystery amp actually sounded like.  That's what you want in a great amplifier.  Clearly the MK IV has more bodacious bass rendering with an abundance of weight and texture, when compared to the more accurate Mystery Amp, but I have to say I'm not entirely sure which amp is actually more fun to listen to.   And if I remember one of my early posts that I defined success in the inability to decide which amp I would rather listen to on a given evening, then I have to say I'm at that place.  The MK IV is a stratospheric leap above the Mk III.  Like a magnifying glass on the music.  A bar that was set my the Mystery Amp, and the ensuring sibling rivalry that followed created the MK IV.

Frankly I couldn't be more pleased with it evolution.  I believe it's now at it's summit.

It's almost ironic if not funny to remember where it all started.... taking a pair of single ended air gapped output transformers and running them in series to create a low efficiency push pull transformer.

I found out the hard way that in the TORII circuit the output transformers had to match within a phase angle of .005% up to 100,000 Hz to keep from osculating into less than desirable conditions.  It was probably the coolest sounding amp I had built to date.  Sadly I had to build four amps just to find one that was stable enough to ship. The rare few owners of these blue Torri's will tell you how nothing sounds like them. It's a long story, but it just demonstrates why nature has certain rules.   If you bend them too far, you get into the Zen Taboo, Torii Zone and it comes with a price.   The first 25 TORII's sold cost me over $50,000.00.   So You can see why after 15 years and all these revisions, including custom output transformers, I am so pleased to see it finally peak, and what a peak it is.  To even be near the level of the Mystery Amp is a huge accomplishment... and here I am after only three days and having a hard time remembering what the mystery amp sounded like, shows you that we have a serious winner on our hands!

I would say for lower volume listening the pristine but weighty texture of the TORII MK IV is probably more desirable than the Mystery Amp.

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« Last Edit: 09/17/13 at 05:01:44 by Steve Deckert »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #121 - 09/17/13 at 05:42:56
 
With the risk of sounding half-witted or just plain stupid, does anyone have a photo that shows how the foam and Torii are properly situated in the Pelican case for safe shipping? I have been using my case to store tubes and don’t want to risk any shipping damage sending my amp back for an upgrade.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #122 - 09/17/13 at 05:52:22
 
Reading Steve's writing is pure audiophile porn. I love it! I keep thinking to myself how does it get better than a MKIII running a pair of Siemens cca's and a quad of 50 year old EL-34's. I know it will be worth the cost and wait… although I may need to attend rehab while my Torii is gone!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #123 - 09/17/13 at 06:20:02
 
Audiophile Porn... +1

Just imagine the soft caress of music flowing from the MK4 and powered by 2 pairs of VOLUPTUOUS KT66 tubes.... Wink
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #124 - 09/17/13 at 12:02:21
 
I have a MK3 with the Jupiters already installed.  I emailed Sarah regarding my cost to upgrade to MK4.  $450,  does not change the top to a black plate, that would require a complete rewire job.  1-3 week turn-around.

Greg
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« Last Edit: 09/17/13 at 12:04:17 by Greg12 »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #125 - 09/17/13 at 15:36:54
 
I hate when you do that, Steve. I'm practically salivating thinking about how much this would improve my sound over my one-off original Zen amp!

Still saving up the $$. I'm about 1/3 the way there!

Any idea when you're going to update the web page (and bump up the price)? That's kind of my deadline for getting up at least half the money and putting my order in...
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #126 - 09/17/13 at 18:57:05
 
LR,  per the email steve sent out w/ pics of the mkiv on sept 12,  it won't be until after Decfest when he can update the web page w/ the new price.
Greg
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #127 - 09/17/13 at 20:29:11
 
"I would say for lower volume listening the pristine but weighty texture of the TORII MK IV is probably more desirable than the Mystery Amp."

Does this mean that the Mystery Amp wouldn't make it into production?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #128 - 09/18/13 at 03:05:16
 
kana813,

The Mystery Amp will be produced.  While I give the edge to the MK IV for lower level listening, the Mystery amp still sounds better with high resolution recordings or analog sources.

Steve
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #129 - 09/18/13 at 03:59:09
 
Steve-

Sounds like the Mystery Amp will be a better match for my system, than
the Mk.4, when can I change my order.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #130 - 09/18/13 at 05:49:59
 
Steve-

I have a MK III Torii with V-Caps.  When I have it upgraded to MK IV would I want to use those?

Jeff
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #131 - 09/18/13 at 06:41:18
 
No,  the Jupiters are an upgrade from the VCaps, in Decware equipment.   I changed my Decware ZSM monoblocks from VCaps to Jupiters.  A big upgrade!

Switched my ZP3 from stock caps to Jupiters in the final stage.  Another big upgrade.

My VCapped Mk III is currently being upgraded to a MK IV with Jupiters.  I am waiting with great anticipation for  that Beeswax/Jupiter HT sound in my upgraded Torii.  Other Torii III owners who have Jupiter caps, can verify this.

Mike
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« Last Edit: 09/18/13 at 14:34:06 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #132 - 09/18/13 at 17:17:19
 
One question for you Steve... in one of your compare and contrast posts, either between the Torii 3 and 4 or Torii 4 and Mystery Amp.. you talked about the Torii's "ability" to deliver more current into higher impedances, and something about it making your speakers sound better than they really were, having a "weightier" sound, etc.  

I have a Torii 3... since Dec. '12.  I have heard it driving several different sets of speakers, including vastly different types of speakers, including electrostats.  While the Torii's sonic goodness is apparent to some degree on just about everything I've ever heard it drive, it Was NOT until I connected it to a pair of single, full-range, high-efficiency driver based speakers with no xover at all, did I truly hear the Torii, or the rest of my system for that matter.  
This was an OMG moment, revolutionary in my 30+ years in this hobby.  This is easily the best sound I've ever had in my room, and competes with the best I've ever heard - at any price - including any and everything I've ever heard demo'd anywhere, including at RMAF.  
At first I'm thinking, must be the speakers - right?  since I'd never owned a pair of speakers like this before.  So I hooked up other amps to them... yeah... a hint of the same thing - but not even remotely close to the Torii 3 driving them.  There is an undeniable, absolute match-made-in-heaven synergy going on here.  

And... since most of the full-ranger/high-efficiency types tend to have rising impedance in their lower frequency ranges(at least the ones I have do), they typically sound a little light unless compensated for elsewhere - at least that's been my limited experience so far with these types of speakers.

So..  your statement about the Torii's ability to drive more current into higher impedances "explains" my experience and what I'm hearing it do with my single/full-range drivers exactly.  I have "weight" in the mid bass and liquid deliciousness thru the mids and highs, while still having, at times - startling dynamics , and tons of "rez", transient snap/speed, etc.  There's really just not much to complain about.  No "sub" bass present, but that's the speakers, not the amp.  Sub-bass can be added externally.

The "gist" - my question?  Does the Torii MK.IV Retain the same impedance/drive characteristics that the III possesses?  Because I absolutely do not want to "lose" this attribute of my III.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #133 - 09/18/13 at 17:26:59
 
You just asked my intended question for me and a good one it is!

Steve,

I have the same concern but specifically the MKIV connected to my HDT's.
 
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #134 - 09/18/13 at 17:56:28
 
I heard the HDT's at Decfest last year.  I was surprised to see them leave production.  The "value" speaker for Decware IMO... perhaps a new model is forthcoming, but I digress.

Yes I think the HDT's fall into that same category of "type" of speaker that I'm using my Torii 3 with... the single full-range, high-efficiency driver with no xover.  My drivers are Audio Nirvana 12", cast frame, Alnico's..  I was a skeptic for at least 3 years after discovering these types of speakers at RMAF, being driven by flea-watt SET amps that just "made music" and transported me "there".  
I finally could no longer resist what my ears were hearing and telling my brain - my cognitive dissonance was resolved.  And I hopped on this bandwagon - biggest advance in music playback in my room - ever!
Forget the objectivist and the ragged measured response of these drivers... just "listen".  I have "blown away" some local audiophile friends with my speakers and the Torii.  I have one friend who sold Andra's and Avantgarde's and BAT amps after hearing my setup.  And this particular guy can afford to own just about anything he wants!!  Money talks - BS walks.... Decware wins again!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #135 - 09/18/13 at 19:28:14
 
I have a Torii 3 and HDT's also. So I'm very interested in this as well.

This thread covered this too: http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1363627564

In a nutshell, (If I remember correctly) the torii pushes more power into higher impedance because it's a pentode.  A Zen Triode does not.  (per Steve at decfest'12)  This is why the torii has the treble cut,.. to counter this effect.

With the KT66 being a beam tetrode, (I know nothing more about them) since it's structurally different than a pentode, it's likely to behave differently than the el34.  (my random guess).  

From Steve's comment in the torii4 thread:
"The Hazen Grid Mod takes advantage of the internal construction of the EL34 to make it a better sounding tube, and it does.  With the circuit changes in the new MK IV, the KT66 is a better fit resulting in an even better sound.  The presentation is far better balanced and you get the full range of the volume control without any clipping." ...

And I infer from "far better balanced" means the KT66 behaves more "flat" with a single driver speaker.  this is all my speculation.

I'm very interested to hear the differences and talk to you guys.  see you in Peoria soon.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #136 - 09/18/13 at 23:55:08
 
Dear fellow Audiophiles,

There will be an audio "Clash of the Titans" shootout in a few months time.

I managed to get hold of a matched Quad of the legendary GEC Grayglass KT66 NOS power tubes. (If you google "Tubeworld KT66", you can see what they look like)

When I receive my Torii MK4, I shall pit these against my matched Quad of Philips Metal base NOS EL34s.

KT means "kink less".
The KT66 tubes were specially developed by GEC/MOV (UK) to counter the audio sonics of the equally famous power tubes by Philips (European).

I can't wait to receive my Torii MK 4 and settle this audio contest once and for all ! Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #137 - 09/19/13 at 01:14:28
 
Quote:
So..  your statement about the Torii's ability to drive more current into higher impedances "explains" my experience and what I'm hearing it do with my single/full-range drivers exactly.  I have "weight" in the mid bass and liquid deliciousness thru the mids and highs, while still having, at times - startling dynamics , and tons of "rez", transient snap/speed, etc.  There's really just not much to complain about.  No "sub" bass present, but that's the speakers, not the amp.  Sub-bass can be added externally.

The "gist" - my question?  Does the Torii MK.IV Retain the same impedance/drive characteristics that the III possesses?  Because I absolutely do not want to "lose" this attribute of my III.


Yes, the MK IV retains this quality.  In fact, the MKIII bass dampening control has been eliminated and replaced with a superior yet simple switch operating a completely new circuit.  The  MK III bass "tightness" control worked, however the amp as a whole sounded better with it turned clockwise vs it's tighter setting of counter clockwise.  This pits the user against controlling boomy bass on certain speakers OR a more textured, open midrange.  NOW, the MK IV uses a bass tightness switch that does exactly and only that.  Effects nothing else.  When activated, the bass is deliciously cleaner than it's ever been before.

The only thing the MK III does better is to come off slightly softer than the MK IV, but then if you use KT66's any trace of hardness is gone, so really there isn't anything the MK III does better,  there really doesn't seem to be any trade offs.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #138 - 09/19/13 at 01:21:07
 

Quote:
Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #121 - 09/16/13 at 11:42pm    With the risk of sounding half-witted or just plain stupid, does anyone have a photo that shows how the foam and Torii are properly situated in the Pelican case for safe shipping? I have been using my case to store tubes and don’t want to risk any shipping damage sending my amp back for an upgrade.






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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #139 - 09/19/13 at 01:57:12
 

Quote:
Steve-

Sounds like the Mystery Amp will be a better match for my system, than
the Mk.4, when can I change my order.



Any time before we pull parts to build your amp.  Usually around weeks 8 to 10.  Send Sarah@decware.com an e-mail or call her at (309) 822 5255.

Base price on the Mystery Amp will be 4695.00 and we will go over any options and prices for those options prior to starting your build.

-Steve
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #140 - 09/19/13 at 02:40:21
 
"Any time before we pull parts to build your amp.  Usually around weeks 8 to 10.  Send Sarah@decware.com an e-mail or call her at (309) 822 5255.

Base price on the Mystery Amp will be 4695.00 and we will go over any options and prices for those options prior to starting your build. -Steve"


Steve,

Thanks for the info.

I see you're using transformers on the Mystery Amp's input.

Did you know that Audience has a new line of transformers?

http://www.audience-av.com/parts/ait1_description.html

If you'd like to try them, PM me and I'll see if I can get you some samples.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #141 - 09/19/13 at 02:56:48
 
Thanks for the photos Steve!!!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #142 - 09/21/13 at 19:21:39
 
Any new Torii mk4 users will share their impression
Thx!
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 19:23:12 by ryandigital »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #143 - 09/21/13 at 20:48:09
 
This is gonna sound like a crazy request, but same someone give me the exact measurements of the Torii including the height of the tubes.

My little one is in the throwing stage these days, and I am going to have to build or buy an enclosure to keep any unwanted missiles from breaking the tubes.  Unfortunately my current system rack had to be taken out and put in garage.  For the time being, the Torii is going to be situated on my dresser in the bedroom.

Not really the ideal situation and setup, but it's only temporary.

Dom
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #144 - 09/21/13 at 23:35:16
 
Dom,

My MkIII has the contemporary base which is 18.5 x 13. With standard feet and Valve Art 274B rectifiers the height is a little under 8 inches. The Chatham 5R4YWG rectifiers in there now are about the same.
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 23:36:48 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #145 - 09/22/13 at 04:51:15
 
Thanks Will.  Ideally I would love to have something constructed of glass that I could keep on permanently.  It would not only show off the beautiful nightly glow, but protect it as well.  The problem I envision would be the lack of heat dispersion and possibly causing a problem with the unit itself.  I guess Steve would be the only one who could answer that.  

When I first realized that a tube amp was the path I wanted to take....I came across the Jolida amps on a Google search.  What intrigued me was the design of this amp for its glass enclosure....

http://www.jolida.com/product/glassfx/fx10

This would be perfect fit for the Torii in my application.  Hmm....now the cogs are starting to turn.

D
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #146 - 09/22/13 at 06:07:05
 
Dom,

I designed and built a lot of pottery kilns for many years, so understand the basics of heat and draft.

When you look closely at the Jolida, you see that there is an air space top and bottom on all side pieces of glass. With the heat of the tubes and transformers, heat naturally rising, a convection cycle will start passing heat out the top spaces. This is turn sets up a pull from the spaces below, drawing in cooler, room temperature air, cooling the interior air, tubes and transformers as the upper spaces vent heat.

To a degree, the higher the distance from the bottom space to the top space the better it will create an up draft. But at the same time, the jolida unit has plenty of space above the transformers and tubes to collect the greatest heat before it vents out.

The trick would be making the air space in the top big enough, and the top and bottom side glass spaces tall enough to allow good air flow, optimally cooling/venting the unit.

None-the less, since it is enclosed rather than being open, there is likely some heat build up. I suspect the Jolida instructions tell one not to put this in an enclosed space, and not to touch the glass???

The Torri has more, hotter tubes, but also a lot more horizontal surface area. I think it could work. I might think about going a little overboard with the side spaces and the air space above the transformers and tubes. Maybe make the height  3 or so inches higher than the rectifier tops and make the spaces on the bottom and top of the side glass pieces maybe 1/2 to 5/8". If you worked out a way to hold the glass in place in a secure, but somewhat temporary way, you could start with the spaces on the smaller side, and if it heated up too much, pull the glass and get it cut.

The back glass panel would have to allow for cables, and maybe you would want to look for an elbow adapter for the IEC if there is such a thing. This would upset the balance of air flow, but I imagine it could work fine with the back/bottom space two inches or so to accommodate cables while also letting in more air. Or maybe you would not have to protect the back??? leaving it without a panel.

I am guessing you would want the design to allow for lifting off the top glass and sliding out the side glass pieces for access to the inside.

I would talk with Steve about it, but these are some thoughts. Alternately, a similarly shaped stainless steel mesh box that you could easily lift off would function close to having it out in the air, and with the right design and mesh it could look cool.
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« Last Edit: 09/22/13 at 06:17:03 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #147 - 09/23/13 at 00:14:26
 
Steve,

Congratulations to you and the Decware team on the Torii MKIV amplifier.  Two quick questions:

1) When do you expect new production units will be available given your current order flow?

2) I have seen some posts that the amp will have Jupiter caps.  Are these by chance the latest copper Jupiter caps?  Ric Schultz posted some limited info on these on Audio Circle from his discussions with Chris at Jupiter.

Thanks, have a great Decfest!

Nature Boy
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #148 - 09/23/13 at 00:56:11
 
Hey Will,

Thank you so much for your input...it's greatly appreciated!!   Since you have experience in this area, your advice will be helpful.  Whether I attempt to construct this myself, or outsource it,  i think it's something that will give me peace of mind.  

While a protective metal cage may be easier to construct,  the glass structure would just be that much nicer and add a touch of class.   I did notice the spacing in the glass panes on the top, bottom, and sides.  I am sure that the heat dissipation was taken into account.  I may need to take some surface temps of the base and the tubes themselves to get a better idea of how to proceed.

Dom

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #149 - 09/23/13 at 02:26:00
 
I think a clean glass and metal box would be really nice too.
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« Last Edit: 09/23/13 at 02:26:37 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #150 - 10/03/13 at 02:10:38
 
I talked to Sarah today, and it looks like my Torii Mark  III/IV conversion will be shipped next Monday.  It's already finished, but there's no more shipping this week due to Decfest.

Does anyone else have a Mark III currently in the shop, being converted to a Mark IV?

Mike in Seattle area

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« Last Edit: 10/03/13 at 02:23:36 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #151 - 10/03/13 at 04:32:49
 
I currently have mine being worked on too. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #152 - 10/03/13 at 18:55:33
 
I have a Mark IV in the shiping stage...I live near the Seattle area also..heh small world.  I am excited to hear this thing and compare it to my Mini Torii, it has the upgrades.  

Someday I will go to decfest, looks like an awesome time...:)
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #153 - 10/03/13 at 19:15:37
 

And you guys are making me really jones for a MKIV.

I'm putting my order in Friday or Saturday (probably while I'm listening to it at the Zen Fest)  ;D
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #154 - 10/03/13 at 22:14:36
 
"I'm putting my order in Friday or Saturday (probably while I'm listening to MIKE'S at the Zen Fest)"

Fixed it for you L.R.

We need to make sure it is run in before it gets to Seattle Wink
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« Last Edit: 10/03/13 at 22:16:30 by Lin »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #155 - 10/04/13 at 00:39:24
 
Hey Lin,

Actually, yesterday I gave Sarah the go ahead to use my Torii Mk III/Mk IV conversion, as a demo unit at Decfest.  

With at least 5000 hours on it already (well-seasoned transformers!), I'm hoping they run it day and night to put some mileage on all those big new caps.

Less breakin  for me, and the hours won't be on my tubes!  Hope they go for it:)

Mike in Seattle area  
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« Last Edit: 10/04/13 at 00:41:01 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #156 - 10/04/13 at 01:05:48
 
Mike,
I live 80 miles from Decware and would be willing to bring it home for a week or so to make sure there are no problems with it. Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #157 - 10/04/13 at 01:54:14
 
 No, mine's headed home after Decfest. By the time I get it, I'll have already waited six very long weeks!  

Lin,  I see you have one of those original blue Torii's.  I bought one of those new from Decware.  With good tubes, it was pretty amazing.

I'm not so sure the Mk IV would be much of an upgrade (if any) over the original Blue Torii.

You should bring your's to Decfest and have a shoot-out!

It would be interesting.

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #158 - 10/04/13 at 10:44:22
 
Sounds like a great idea to have an amp shoot-out!

That blue Torii sure sounds like a dark horse which might give the newer models a run for their money.

Would be a great experience, for example, to line up the CSP from the very 1st model to the latest CSP3.
In that way, one can literally hear the sonic improvements made over the years.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #159 - 10/04/13 at 13:11:37
 
I'm in the vicinity of Decware already this morning, and headed to the fest later this afternoon... and I have my Torii III with me!  So I can hear III .vs. IV real time... and leave my III behind for upgrade if I like what I hear.... or..... sell my III and get a whole new IV... decisions, decisions.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #160 - 10/04/13 at 14:59:15
 
Brianne (my fiance) and I area heading down that way and should be in town around 5pm or so. We're going to walk around the city for a bit, then be at Steve's around 8pm-9pm.

I'll have my SE83A with me...but it's the one that was recently tweaked by Steve, with about 100 hours on it since then. I'd like to hear the jump from SE83A to Torii MKIII and Torii MKIV!
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« Last Edit: 10/04/13 at 15:01:55 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #161 - 10/04/13 at 16:36:47
 
I hope all you guys have a good time at Decfest.  Sounds like it'll be great fun!

I'm very curious to hear what people attending, feel about the new Mk IV running EL34's versus the "voiced" KT66's.  Should be interesting.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #162 - 10/04/13 at 16:53:37
 
Since I'm putting my order in this weekend, I'm curious as well!  ;D

Offhand, I'm probably going for the KT-66, but I'll defer to what Steve suggests. When I describe what I'm looking for in my sound, he always cuts to the chase and gets me there more quickly - sometimes not always explaining why, but he's not been wrong yet.   Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #163 - 10/04/13 at 17:04:54
 
I'm at the airport at sweet home Chicago. Can't hardly wait to get to the festival.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #164 - 10/04/13 at 23:18:35
 
Having an early dinner in Peoria now. See you all in a couple hours
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #165 - 10/07/13 at 21:50:05
 
Hi everyone,

After lurking here for nearly a year, I pulled the trigger on the Mark IV. I can't wait to join the Decware family!

Sincerely,

Pat

Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #166 - 10/07/13 at 21:57:31
 
Hi Pat... welcome to the family.

if this is your first Decware experience... be prepared.... this can be a life altering event!  Get ready to step off the merry-go-round and just "enjoy the music" from this point on.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #167 - 10/07/13 at 22:27:44
 
Pat,

WELCOME! And I hope the wait is not TOO painful!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #168 - 10/09/13 at 16:44:15
 
Hi, Pat.  I was in your shoes a number of months back.  I believe I got the first customer shipped MK IV and I've had it now going into my third week.  The Torii was my first Decware piece and I can tell you the wait is worth it.  I recommend using the KT66s with this amp.  I also have the EL34s and have put those away.  The 66s seem to have a richer sound and better balance top to bottom.  I still have tons of break in to go but this amp has already won me over.  If it continues to improve as everyone suggests that it will, this will be my last amp.

Wait as fast as you can! Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #169 - 10/11/13 at 11:50:01
 
I just noticed on the product page that Steve omitted the bit about ordering a TORII MK IV at the TORII MK III Price. He also omitted the pictures of the IV. I think the transition to the new page is underway.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #170 - 10/21/13 at 22:34:09
 
Well my Torii MKIV just arrvied today.  For now I am seeing how it sounds with my small traps speakers.  I have used the mini torii for a few years now, jupiter and feedback upgrade on it,  and just love it so time to see how this big boy does Smiley   Cheesy

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #171 - 10/21/13 at 23:09:03
 
I have never heard a mini-Torii... but I did A/B my Torii III to the IV, and I prefer the III's lusciousness to the IV's more clinical sound... your speakers, sources and room will surely be different and your preferences may vary.  It will be interesting to hear your impressions.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #172 - 10/26/13 at 03:34:44
 
Well darn it this amp is just super awesome that since I have plugged it in I forgot about my mini torii.  I have noticed everything just went up a notch in a good way, especially the bass department and clarity compared to my mini torii.  Now I just love my mini torii but since I got the MKIV I have had no desire to listen to it lol.  I still have burning in to do as I have only like 30 hours on it.  Even my wife who is just the best, mentioned how good the MKIV sounded and she never comments on my audio stuff lol.

My setup is,  iMac--Anedio U2 usb converter---Van Alstine Vision dac---Torii---Trapezium speakers,  though speakers will be upgraded eventually to the err's or hr-1.
Thank you decware team for making an amazing amp and having such wonderful service. Cheesy
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #173 - 10/26/13 at 06:22:58
 
Great news JazzToGo. Keep us informed. I really look forward to hearing the MkIV!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #174 - 10/27/13 at 00:27:53
 
I have finished the Owner's Manual for the TORII MK IV.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIMK4.pdf

Sorry it took so long!  Now on to the web page!


-Steve  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #175 - 10/27/13 at 00:34:12
 
Many thanks!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #176 - 10/27/13 at 04:04:39
 
Thanks Steve! You just answered many questions.

Can we use 6L6 output tubes in place of the KT-66's?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #177 - 10/27/13 at 06:07:38
 
Quote:
Speaker Impedance Switch (cont.)
The amplifier is sold with the option of being wired for 8 and 16 ohm speakers. Irregardless
of which way you had your amplifier wired at the factory, the higher impedance will always
be with the switch towards the front of the amp. Lower impedance will always be with the
switch towards the rear of the amplifier.



I'm no grammar Nazi (hell, I'm barely literate  ;D), but seriously, ouch.

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #178 - 10/27/13 at 15:42:24
 
On Websters....ir·re·gard·less adverb \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\

Definition of IRREGARDLESS

nonstandard
:  regardless
Usage Discussion of IRREGARDLESS

Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Examples of IRREGARDLESS

I told them that irregardless of what you read in books, they's some members of the theatrical profession that occasionally visits the place where they sleep. —Ring Lardner, The Big Town, 1921
Origin of IRREGARDLESS

probably blend of irrespective and regardless
First Known Use: circa 1912
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #179 - 10/27/13 at 16:11:57
 
Yes, "irregardless" didn't sting me in that sentence. Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #180 - 10/27/13 at 20:23:14
 
Quote:
Irregardless Versus Regardless
First, let's talk about irregardless. Some people mistakenly use irregardless when they mean “regardless.” Regardless means “regard less,” “without regard,” or despite something. For example, Squiggly will eat chocolate regardless of the consequences.

The prefix ir- (i-r) is a negative prefix, so if you add the prefix ir to a word that's already negative like regardless, you're making a double-negative word that literally means “without without regard.”

Language experts speculate that irregardless comes from a combination of the words regardless and irrespective and that another reason people might say "irregardless" is that they are following the pattern of words like irregular and irreplaceable. But regardless already has the -less suffix on the end, so it's not like those other words.

- See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/irregardless-versus-regardles...


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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #181 - 10/27/13 at 20:30:21
 
Is this a thread about the new Torii MK IV?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #182 - 10/27/13 at 20:34:19
 
Quote:
Is this a thread about the new Torii MK IV?


Not after I wrecked it.  :P
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #183 - 10/27/13 at 20:48:26
 
I have about 100 hours on my Torii MKIII to MK IV. It's been on, non-stop, for four days.  I did some serious listening today. Stock new production EL-34 junk, I am using for break-in, sound pretty bad. It's been too long to remember what they sounded like before the mod. NOS RTF EL-34's sound wonderful. I have a feeling some will like the MKIII better but maybe not with KT-66's. First impressions are the amp is more accurate and the bass is more like SS (much better low end). It defiantly sounds better... something I never thought could happen. I won't go as far to say it sounds $800 better. That is subjective and the Torii MKIII already sounded so good it actually sounds better than I expected. I will say it's a bit less warm sounding in the midrange. I suspect the warm has been replaced with a more accurate reproduction of the source.

In short, I am very happy with the upgrade!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #184 - 10/27/13 at 21:14:05
 
Thanks for weighing in Roy.

Makes me feel happy for you, and happy for me that I think staying with the III is right for me. Smiley
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #185 - 10/28/13 at 01:02:19
 
Steve- Thank you for the owners manual. As a future owner, I had a fear that I would have my amp before I had a manual and would have to flood the forum with questions about the switches etc. Looking to get that amp in another month or so. Still have stuff to sell though……
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #186 - 10/30/13 at 04:33:14
 
The owner's manual will be updated with additional information about possible output tubes soon.

Meanwhile, the same information is now on the new TORII MK IV page.



http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm


It's kind of a last minute surprise... because KT66 are not the only great sounding tube option for a TORII MK IV.

-Steve

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #187 - 10/30/13 at 05:27:30
 
Steve, thanks for the additional info on output tube choices!  

With 200+ hours on my conversion,  I have to say that I'm super happy with the Tung Sol KT66's.

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #188 - 10/30/13 at 07:16:12
 
That is a pretty great way to illustrate different power tubes. Thanks!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #189 - 10/30/13 at 17:57:39
 
I agree that the meter chart on the web page is useful.  I also agree in the assessment between the EL34 and KT66.  I would have rated the properties in a similar manner if voting.  I have been settling in with the KT66s as sounding better for me and this confirms what I am hearing.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #190 - 10/30/13 at 18:35:52
 

From those charts, it's looking like KT77 might be a good option as well!

I wonder if the Mystery Amp will be as versatile. It has far fewer tubes than the MK IV.

Damn that MK IV is one sexy lookin' tube filled beast!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #191 - 10/30/13 at 19:14:40
 
I really love the visual presentation of the output tube choices. Cheesy

Very original !!!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #192 - 10/30/13 at 19:17:19
 
LR,  I'm checking out the KT77 also, as a KT66 alternative.  Depending on the tube supplier/maker, it may be a good way to go.

Mike
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #193 - 10/31/13 at 02:03:26
 
When I click on the link Steve provided, it takes me to the MkIII site not the MkIV. Am I doing something wrong??
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #194 - 10/31/13 at 02:11:09
 
Looks like it got flipped back to the MK III page. Either it's an error on the host side, or Steve might be updating/modifying the MK IV page.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #195 - 10/31/13 at 02:43:53
 
If you can't see the new Torii MK4 web page, try refreshing your web browser.

This worked for me.

BTW, thanks to Steve again for giving us the early bird discount.
I saved over US$800 in total ($500 price difference + $300 Pelican Case).

The Pelican case is still FOC at the moment so there is still potential savings of US$300 for anyone sitting on the fence right now.

My Torii MK4 finally arrived at my doorstep! Smiley

I'm currently burning in the equipment.
Fresh out of the box, the amp sounds wonderful.
I popped in a complete fresh set of NOS tubes.
Based on my experience, the rectifier and output tubes need a long burn in before any sonic judgements can be made.

Will post  more detailed impressions soon after I hit the 100hr burn in mark.

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« Last Edit: 11/01/13 at 11:22:31 by Lord Soth »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #196 - 11/07/13 at 05:33:25
 
I'm trying new input tubes Siemens E88, but have also ordered some Mullard E88CC for warmer sound, the Klipsch RF7-ii I'm using are far too bright, the horns overtake the room, I have to calm the top end somehow, maybe use a (yuk) graphic equalizer!!! Will be going back to my Paradigms Monitor 9's if I can't get the Klipsch's to sound better!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #197 - 11/07/13 at 06:06:55
 
The solution to your dilemma dalerf is aTorii MK.III...!  I have compared them side by side.....! Grin
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #198 - 11/07/13 at 06:25:18
 
Is the Torii III warmer sounding amp than the Torii IV?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #199 - 11/07/13 at 06:26:36
 
I will get a better idea when I hook up my old speakers Paradigm Monitor 9's I think they will sound a lot better than the Klipsch.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #200 - 11/07/13 at 07:01:10
 
The III is definitely warmer, more lush than the IV - when tubed with the stock recommended tubes - especially with the 6N1P's in the inputs of the III.  And the treble shunt control on the III can take the shout, brightness, forwardness right out of your sound with a turn of the dials.  This is one of the reasons I would not give up my III.
I don't know if you can use 6N1P's in the IV or not.  It was outfitted with EH6922's at the fest.
I had my III updated with the Jupiter's-just got it back last week.  It only reinforces my decision to stay with the III even more now.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #201 - 11/07/13 at 14:54:55
 
6NIP's and Genalex Gold Lion KT77's is a lush, rich seductive combo on the Torrii III while losing no transparency, speed and detail. Mid range and vocals even sweater and more pronounced and yet they put out serious heavy bass. The best tube combo I have tried in my Torii. While they don't use the hazen mod, you won't care from the moment you pop them in.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #202 - 11/07/13 at 15:28:54
 
At 388 hours of break-in time (with daily cooling off periods), my MK IV conversion is easily as warm/lush as it was in it's MK III form.  Additionally, it has  greater detail and air.  

A far more emotionally involving amp than my MK I, II, and III ever were.

One difference between my converted MK IV and most other MK IV's; instead of using 4 Jupiter caps, Steve retained the 4 original VCaps and then added two smaller (in size and value) Jupiters, forming a bypass circuit.  So, I've got 6 coupling caps affecting the sound, instead of 4.

I'm using 10 year old Legacy Audio Sig. III's, resting on Sistrum Stands.

With Tung Sol KT66's in the amp, I'm getting more bass extension than I was with RFT EL34's, pre-conversion.

The treble adjusting controls have a surprisingly big effect on the sonics.  For me, anyway.

I'll post more in the MK III/MK IV conversion thread this weekend (hopefully).

Mike in Seattle area
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« Last Edit: 11/07/13 at 17:18:17 by tgarden »  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #203 - 11/09/13 at 18:10:38
 
Hello...i am not a decware owner yet so i wanted to ask an opinion about the combination with my thiel cs 1.6 which are rated at 90 db efficiency BUT get low as 3 ohm impedance.

Also for commercial question and shipping to italy i should contact customer service?!?!?

Last but not least...the VCAPS: what difference they make to the sound? Are they actually an upgrade or a matter of soudn taste???

Thanks again and, btw, i wish i could audition this amps because if they sound as they look they must be amazing.

Best regards to everyone
Giorgio
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #204 - 11/09/13 at 22:54:14
 
Dear Giorgio,

Welcome to Decware! Smiley
I have 3 of their amps now and they are really value for money.

My Torii MK4 was configured for 8 - 16 ohms speakers.
Despite the theoretical impedance mismatch, they sound fantastic with my Alesis Monitor One MK 2 (Passive) speakers with 88db 4 Ohms specs.
I can barely crank up the volume to over the half way mark.

There are some posts here about Torii MK 3 VCaps owners switching over to the beeswax caps. It sounds better.

As for shipping, yes, please contact either Sarah or Devon at Customer Service.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #205 - 11/10/13 at 07:39:23
 
Thanks a lot soth Smiley Will contact their customer service pretty soon Cheesy

I like the idea of customization. Now i am trying to relize how to implement the pre amp + power amp combo....

The torii works also without a preamp correct??? You know i have always owned integrated and stuck with my electrocompaniet for over ten years now so it would be my first time (and they didnt even buy me a drink  ;D) ...i wonder if you can have balanced inputs in the tori or ask for a balanced pre amp Huh  ::)
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #206 - 11/10/13 at 08:14:24
 
The Torii MK4 works very well with or without a preamp.

As for balanced inputs, I think the new Decware Mystery Amp has that option.
The Torii MK 4 can't be configured for balanced inputs.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #207 - 11/10/13 at 09:19:50
 
Has anyone tried VR90's or VR150's voltage regulation tubes, the manuals says they will change the sound, but what way do they change it! I've even read that some people are using KT77's  as output tubes, I've just ordered a matched quad of RCA 6L6 black plates, so will be interesting how they sound compared to the current KT66's I'm running.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #208 - 11/10/13 at 21:03:51
 
This weekend was the first large amount of listening I've done with the MK IV.  I have to say it is more detailed than the MK III without being fatiguing. The bass is much better controlled, which suits itself well to this small listening room. I connected it to my CSP2+ but don't really hear that it is needed.  So I disconnected the preamp. Thus far I am satisfied with the new configuration.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #209 - 11/10/13 at 22:31:48
 
Quote:
VR90's or VR150's voltage regulation tubes, the manuals says they will change the sound,


This is what happens with the Torii MKIII, and very likely is similar with the MkIV.

Depending on make and vintage, all the tube types, say an OA3 for example, can have a fair bit of variation, particularly in terms of warmth versus open/brighter. But underneath that, generally the OA3 (VR75) will push the power tubes harder...more everything, but what will typically be most apparent is more density/push, and more mid-bass to bass.

As you go up the alphabet, the OB3 (VR-90), OC3 (VR-105), OD3 (VR-150), you will hear progressively less density, push and bass, and more open/spaciousness.

So if the OA3 sounds a little too much, an OB3 will chill down the sound a bit, opening things up some. And a nice OD3 will be the most spacious. 40's Hytrons are a really good sounding OD3...warmish and musical, textured, dynamic, and spacious. It just depends what your room and system is like and the other tubes you are using, but regulators are really good tuning tools if the above is a factor for you.

In My MkIII, in this room, I usually use 50's OB3s...Raytheon, Tungsol, or Marconi ST (coke bottle shape). I think these are all made by the same folks, but they sound a little different...probably due to slightly different vintage and runs. The nice thing about these particular tubes is they are warm and textured, but a bit more chilled out than any of my OA3s, which can sound a little heavy-handed in my system/room depending on the other tubes.
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« Last Edit: 11/10/13 at 22:33:03 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #210 - 11/11/13 at 03:25:09
 
Dear Will,

Thanks for sharing your detailed impressions of the VR Tubes.

Your description mirrors my own experience with the new positive feedback switch on the Torii MK4.
Maybe they have the same effect electrically? -> my own theory .

In my system, when the above-mentioned switch is turned off, the sound is dense and centered.
When the switch is turned on, the sound appears to be more open and spacious. However, It is sonically more diffused.

Just my own personal preference but I prefer to leave the option turned off.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #211 - 11/11/13 at 15:49:48
 
LS,

Interesting, your sense of the feedback circuit. I look forward to hearing it...my MkIV is on the bench!

I am guessing that the feedback and VR change effect on the presentation may be similar, but different. Words are tricky.

Besides the variability of individual tubes of the same type......I think changing VRs is more about the power intensity... I am not an electrical authority by any means, but when I put together what I hear and the idea that the VRs lower or raise the grid voltage of the power tubes, they sound to me like this causes the power tubes to run a little more or less saturated. The effect might be more like when you switch from a warm and full 6922 or 7DJ8 to a more transparent and open sounding one.

Assuming we could start with similarly toned OA3s, OB3, OC3, and OD3s...and if the OA3 makes the amp a little dense and bassy in a system/room, masking the mids, upper mids, and highs a bit, you can definitely enhance the sound stage and clarity with an OB3, OC3, or OD3, each progressively "de-saturating" the sound more. The players generally stay in the same soundstage postion, but the "meat" of each instrument is chilled a bit, leaving the rest of the presentation aspects more space. The mids and upper mids awaken a bit as the low-mids and bass chill a bit. Ambient information takes more space in the sound. The instruments themselves became a bit more spacious and clear, but also the space around them.

So though I imagine the feedback circuit could be described similarly, I would say VR changes cause a less dense, less saturated sound, but no sense of diffusion. Perhaps leaner or bigger describes it in a general way.
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« Last Edit: 11/11/13 at 15:51:28 by will »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #212 - 11/15/13 at 03:00:24
 

I made myself laugh tonight...I said something out-loud that we've probably each thought in our head (well, except for Lon maybe).

I was reading through the MK IV web page for probably the 12th time, and I read the line "the last amp you'll ever want"  and I said to myself - Yeah, till the MK V comes out...

Which made me smile, because I'm hoping the Mystery Amp helps me avoid upgrade-itis for a while...then the audio gods smited me for such blasphemy by whispering in my ear "till Steve comes out with an OTL amp in the next few years...."  :(

I was startled out of my revere by Brianne banging on the bathroom door asking if I'd died on the toilet  ;D
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #213 - 12/18/13 at 04:00:17
 
Good evening. Just got my MK 4 this afternoon. It was packed in the Pelican Case, with the tubes packed in a separate box. Installed the tubes and hooked it up. Sound is nice. I still need to get the right speakers to fully appreciate it. Nice to finally have it!  Thanks to Decware for answering questions so professionally.
Smiley

pat
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #214 - 12/18/13 at 08:17:09
 
Hi Pat,

Welcome to the club. Smiley

Right out of the box, I was surprised by the 3D holographic soundstage.
The Torii MK4 should be in full bloom after around 150hrs.
Have fun.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #215 - 12/18/13 at 10:56:18
 
Congrats! Welcome!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #216 - 12/18/13 at 18:42:33
 

Congrats! Get that burn in time going! I'm constantly surprised how much burn in seems to make a difference.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #217 - 12/18/13 at 21:58:37
 
Iim cooking mine every day now and it sounds better and better.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #218 - 12/18/13 at 23:15:49
 
Mine is coming out of the case today, and going into burnin mode in the second system. Excited!
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #219 - 12/18/13 at 23:30:43
 
Alright, glad it made it, you have a IV now. Keep us posted.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #220 - 12/18/13 at 23:32:50
 
You guys and your "second system"
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #221 - 12/18/13 at 23:37:31
 
I have a second system because my lovely woman loves great sound in the bedroom. And she'd rather listen there. Quite a good motivation to have a great second system!

We're living apart now, but when she next comes to visit she's going to really enjoy the bigger and better bedroom I have now and the improved system. That may be the only place we listen!
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« Last Edit: 12/18/13 at 23:38:14 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #222 - 12/19/13 at 03:00:10
 
LR,

Now that I finally have another Decware amp, my second system is really just now starting in a real way. It is in my small work building and happened sort of organically, and sort of for self preservation!....I mean, ever since I got my Torii MkIII and room tuned in, putting in my old NAD amp when the Torii had to get work was truly painful. Even though that was a nice solid state amp, and I still had it in my tuned room, and hooked in with all the rest of my stuff, cables, vibration stuff, the Zstage, and 944s, the lot.....it just sounded wrong and therefore was not an awakening experience of being "in the music" like the Torii provides here. Well really "awakening" does not cover my feeling from my system...it is like medicine to me it is so comfortable, real and beautiful.

I realized then two main things. One- I fit the profile "Decware....therapy for Audiophiles." And second, I love the natural sound of impeccably presented music so much, my life is simply not as fulfilling without it.

That leads to the self protection part. I have been working up to another Decware amp for a long time. With two, it is unlikely I will be without one!

Now the organic part. I really love my 944s, but in many conversations with ZYGI, starting with my potential interest in his one-off Fuglies...can you figure out the two words that make that name? These speakers were I believe a sort of variation on the HR-1 concept, if I recall, with a nice single driver facing forward and a radial on top...The price was right and I had that niggling for a second pair of speakers for the workshop. One thing led to another, the main thing being Bob's love for the HR-1. So I finally got there and ordered a pair of HR-1s. Luckily he had a couple revelations while making mine that made his already well loved speaker better.

Then of course, I have a few extra cables around from all my explorations there, and loads of tubes, and after years of loving my Zstage (especially with the jupiter caps and two inputs!), then I was finally working toward a Rachel for my second amp....and the CSP had been in my mind for a long time, so I ordered a CSP2+ (that miraculously became a CSP3 for a few of us on the list) at the same time as the Rachel. Now I love the CSP3 in a different way than my modded Zstage.....hmmm two preamp stages I love now.

Unfortunately, in my rooms, the Rachel (though really sweet, especially with the CSP3), after the Torii, it was just not enough. But at this point I am in deep and can't turn around...So for more power....two Rachels and the CSP3, or a MkIV. I am thinking, my god, me being a big tube roller and 2 Rachels needing 4 input tubes, I could not use my great collection of input pairs and would have to buy matched quads. Since 6N1P have never satisfied me, really no current production tubes that I know of either...that could get ugly being a tube freak. Also, after a few talks with Steve, the MkIV made sense.....and a few months later.....a second system!

And that MkIV, with a quad of cryo'd Tungsol KT66, and just a few hours, I know that with burnin and tuning to taste, I am going to love this amp... I am one lucky and happy camper!
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« Last Edit: 12/19/13 at 06:03:10 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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stone_of_tone
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #223 - 01/07/14 at 03:08:17
 
I share your enthusiasm will.

I ordered the Torii IV.  

The next year will be fun pitting my ZMA up against the IV.  A very fun problem to have!  Even though it is only Monday...I'm crackin' a cold one.  Cheers, Stone

I should add....I have no plans to sell either. The "pitting" will be to discover their nuances....and to enjoy both.  

It is all about usable power for both the ZMA & IV. Steve put it best:
"(this is btw the epitome of usable power)", whether it be with the Corner Horns or Gallo 3.1's or JanZen's....in reply #102 IMHO.

Mantra: Usable POWER!
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 03:54:49 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #224 - 01/07/14 at 05:27:18
 
Hey Stone. I have thought about very efficient speakers, but I like my speakers, so for now prefer a little power. The MkIV is burning in nicely..maybe 320 hours. About 220-250 was a break through, and I am waiting for the next, but it does sound very good now.

I am still exploring, hunting tube combos for the sound I like most. It is like the MkIII, but not. It uses tubes pretty differently in serious listening. Its tendency here is sort of between the sweet, textural warmth of a Rachel, and how I have my MkIII tuned...linear and transparent with a touch of warmth. It is interesting how it is warm, but also very clear and smooth. For inputs, it makes 6922s sound closer to how PCC88/7DJ8s sound in the MkIII, more open and textural. Definitely a triumph for Steve in my book. I just need more time to know the amp before really talking about it, but I am liking it!

Excited to hear about your Mystery!

Will
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #225 - 01/07/14 at 17:47:33
 
Cool will, look forward to your further impressions of the IV. I am 12 weeks out on receiving it.  First things first, I need to get the ZMA in.  -S
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #226 - 01/14/14 at 18:12:06
 
I put this in another Thread...but it belongs here:

I picked up some RCA 0C2's for my Torii IV coming in March. However, they arrived in RCA NOS boxes....but they are Motorola's. All good?
Please enlighten?   -S

Well da, after checking the other three boxes (I bought two pair)...the other three 0C2's are NOS RCA's. Just the one out of the four is a Motorola 0C2 (accidentally) in a RCA NOS 0C2 stamped box.

CHit happens.  The Motorola's & Ratheon NOS 0C2's kick arse too.  So, no worries.

Party on Wayne......party on Garth.    -S  
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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #227 - 01/16/14 at 05:41:04
 
Hi Stone,

The NOS Motorola branded 0C2s were made by RCA.
I bought some of those from the Turkish seller NOSTUBEstore.com
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #228 - 01/16/14 at 15:34:26
 
Cool, thanks LS.    -S
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JIMJFOX
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #229 - 02/13/14 at 21:58:49
 
Will it drive a MAGNEPAN MMG SUPER set-up? Maggie site stresses a power amp must deliver twice its rated output at 8 ohms nominal into a 4 ohm load.

I'm a relative novice trying to put together a good system-

Turntable- Roksan Radius 5.2 c/w Goldring 2400 moving magnet cartridge in Nima arm.

Is this sensibly matched, is a pre-amp needed, will this do?---
WEE - Dynamic to Electrostatic Headphone Converter  :-/
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #230 - 02/14/14 at 13:28:11
 
JIMJFOX, I owned Maggie 1.7s awhile back and they really need more power output than the Torii design.  They will no doubt play up to mid listening levels, but you won't be able to get proper support for dynamics or upper listening levels.

I own speakers now that are rated at 87dB and they are a much easier load than my Maggies.  Even still, I have a ZMA on order to get that last layer of output should I need it some day.  Today the Torii gives me good output but I'm in a small room.  

You might ask here if any Torii owner lives near you and would be willing to try their amp with the MMGs.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #231 - 02/14/14 at 14:05:24
 
Many thanks for your knowledge- guess I'll have to look for a solid state amp... pity. UNLESS- high end headphones?
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #232 - 02/14/14 at 14:27:45
 
The Monos would probably do it, and the Mystery amp may. The price jump to the Monos is probably prohibitive. . . the Torii to the Mystery amp is sizablle but not as huge.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #233 - 02/14/14 at 15:00:58
 
Thanks- I looked at those but as you say the price is more than I can spend...
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #234 - 02/14/14 at 19:52:35
 
If you are on a budget a number of Maggie owners run Emotiva SS amps with great success.  Try the planar forum on Audio Asylum for more ideas.  Good luck in your search.
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maddog07
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #235 - 02/14/14 at 20:16:46
 
JIMJFOX,

I sent you a PM about an affordable solid-state amp that myself and two other local audio buddies have found to be extraordinarily synergistic with Maggie's.  I own one of them myself and can recommend it for driving late model Martin Logan electrostats as well.  It's not just good value for the $$, it's "good" period and competes at about any price point IMO and experience. 

I am also a Torii owner... and as much as I love my Torii, it is not the amp for Magnepan's. Maggie's simply need more voltage drive to "get it up".  I have used my Torii with my electrostats, and it works/sounds better than one might expect.  But it is not an ideal synergy.  My 98db full-rangers, on the other hand, make music as beautifully as I've ever heard, when driven by the Torii.  Synergy is everything, followed by room acoustics and then personal preference and taste.  There are many paths leading to the ultimate destination of audio nirvana.  There is no "one" anything that will be right for everybody.  But if you are committed to your Maggie's I strongly encourage you to audition the amp I PM'd you about.  They have a no risk policy - costs almost nothing to try....
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