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New Torii MKIV (Read 31555 times)
maddog07
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #200 - 11/07/13 at 07:01:10
 
The III is definitely warmer, more lush than the IV - when tubed with the stock recommended tubes - especially with the 6N1P's in the inputs of the III.  And the treble shunt control on the III can take the shout, brightness, forwardness right out of your sound with a turn of the dials.  This is one of the reasons I would not give up my III.
I don't know if you can use 6N1P's in the IV or not.  It was outfitted with EH6922's at the fest.
I had my III updated with the Jupiter's-just got it back last week.  It only reinforces my decision to stay with the III even more now.
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orangecrush
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #201 - 11/07/13 at 14:54:55
 
6NIP's and Genalex Gold Lion KT77's is a lush, rich seductive combo on the Torrii III while losing no transparency, speed and detail. Mid range and vocals even sweater and more pronounced and yet they put out serious heavy bass. The best tube combo I have tried in my Torii. While they don't use the hazen mod, you won't care from the moment you pop them in.
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tgarden
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #202 - 11/07/13 at 15:28:54
 
At 388 hours of break-in time (with daily cooling off periods), my MK IV conversion is easily as warm/lush as it was in it's MK III form.  Additionally, it has  greater detail and air.  

A far more emotionally involving amp than my MK I, II, and III ever were.

One difference between my converted MK IV and most other MK IV's; instead of using 4 Jupiter caps, Steve retained the 4 original VCaps and then added two smaller (in size and value) Jupiters, forming a bypass circuit.  So, I've got 6 coupling caps affecting the sound, instead of 4.

I'm using 10 year old Legacy Audio Sig. III's, resting on Sistrum Stands.

With Tung Sol KT66's in the amp, I'm getting more bass extension than I was with RFT EL34's, pre-conversion.

The treble adjusting controls have a surprisingly big effect on the sonics.  For me, anyway.

I'll post more in the MK III/MK IV conversion thread this weekend (hopefully).

Mike in Seattle area
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« Last Edit: 11/07/13 at 17:18:17 by tgarden »  
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ergonomico
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #203 - 11/09/13 at 18:10:38
 
Hello...i am not a decware owner yet so i wanted to ask an opinion about the combination with my thiel cs 1.6 which are rated at 90 db efficiency BUT get low as 3 ohm impedance.

Also for commercial question and shipping to italy i should contact customer service?!?!?

Last but not least...the VCAPS: what difference they make to the sound? Are they actually an upgrade or a matter of soudn taste???

Thanks again and, btw, i wish i could audition this amps because if they sound as they look they must be amazing.

Best regards to everyone
Giorgio
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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #204 - 11/09/13 at 22:54:14
 
Dear Giorgio,

Welcome to Decware! Smiley
I have 3 of their amps now and they are really value for money.

My Torii MK4 was configured for 8 - 16 ohms speakers.
Despite the theoretical impedance mismatch, they sound fantastic with my Alesis Monitor One MK 2 (Passive) speakers with 88db 4 Ohms specs.
I can barely crank up the volume to over the half way mark.

There are some posts here about Torii MK 3 VCaps owners switching over to the beeswax caps. It sounds better.

As for shipping, yes, please contact either Sarah or Devon at Customer Service.
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ergonomico
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #205 - 11/10/13 at 07:39:23
 
Thanks a lot soth Smiley Will contact their customer service pretty soon Cheesy

I like the idea of customization. Now i am trying to relize how to implement the pre amp + power amp combo....

The torii works also without a preamp correct??? You know i have always owned integrated and stuck with my electrocompaniet for over ten years now so it would be my first time (and they didnt even buy me a drink  ;D) ...i wonder if you can have balanced inputs in the tori or ask for a balanced pre amp Huh  ::)
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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #206 - 11/10/13 at 08:14:24
 
The Torii MK4 works very well with or without a preamp.

As for balanced inputs, I think the new Decware Mystery Amp has that option.
The Torii MK 4 can't be configured for balanced inputs.
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dalerf
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #207 - 11/10/13 at 09:19:50
 
Has anyone tried VR90's or VR150's voltage regulation tubes, the manuals says they will change the sound, but what way do they change it! I've even read that some people are using KT77's  as output tubes, I've just ordered a matched quad of RCA 6L6 black plates, so will be interesting how they sound compared to the current KT66's I'm running.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #208 - 11/10/13 at 21:03:51
 
This weekend was the first large amount of listening I've done with the MK IV.  I have to say it is more detailed than the MK III without being fatiguing. The bass is much better controlled, which suits itself well to this small listening room. I connected it to my CSP2+ but don't really hear that it is needed.  So I disconnected the preamp. Thus far I am satisfied with the new configuration.
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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #209 - 11/10/13 at 22:31:48
 
Quote:
VR90's or VR150's voltage regulation tubes, the manuals says they will change the sound,


This is what happens with the Torii MKIII, and very likely is similar with the MkIV.

Depending on make and vintage, all the tube types, say an OA3 for example, can have a fair bit of variation, particularly in terms of warmth versus open/brighter. But underneath that, generally the OA3 (VR75) will push the power tubes harder...more everything, but what will typically be most apparent is more density/push, and more mid-bass to bass.

As you go up the alphabet, the OB3 (VR-90), OC3 (VR-105), OD3 (VR-150), you will hear progressively less density, push and bass, and more open/spaciousness.

So if the OA3 sounds a little too much, an OB3 will chill down the sound a bit, opening things up some. And a nice OD3 will be the most spacious. 40's Hytrons are a really good sounding OD3...warmish and musical, textured, dynamic, and spacious. It just depends what your room and system is like and the other tubes you are using, but regulators are really good tuning tools if the above is a factor for you.

In My MkIII, in this room, I usually use 50's OB3s...Raytheon, Tungsol, or Marconi ST (coke bottle shape). I think these are all made by the same folks, but they sound a little different...probably due to slightly different vintage and runs. The nice thing about these particular tubes is they are warm and textured, but a bit more chilled out than any of my OA3s, which can sound a little heavy-handed in my system/room depending on the other tubes.
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« Last Edit: 11/10/13 at 22:33:03 by will »  

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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #210 - 11/11/13 at 03:25:09
 
Dear Will,

Thanks for sharing your detailed impressions of the VR Tubes.

Your description mirrors my own experience with the new positive feedback switch on the Torii MK4.
Maybe they have the same effect electrically? -> my own theory .

In my system, when the above-mentioned switch is turned off, the sound is dense and centered.
When the switch is turned on, the sound appears to be more open and spacious. However, It is sonically more diffused.

Just my own personal preference but I prefer to leave the option turned off.
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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #211 - 11/11/13 at 15:49:48
 
LS,

Interesting, your sense of the feedback circuit. I look forward to hearing it...my MkIV is on the bench!

I am guessing that the feedback and VR change effect on the presentation may be similar, but different. Words are tricky.

Besides the variability of individual tubes of the same type......I think changing VRs is more about the power intensity... I am not an electrical authority by any means, but when I put together what I hear and the idea that the VRs lower or raise the grid voltage of the power tubes, they sound to me like this causes the power tubes to run a little more or less saturated. The effect might be more like when you switch from a warm and full 6922 or 7DJ8 to a more transparent and open sounding one.

Assuming we could start with similarly toned OA3s, OB3, OC3, and OD3s...and if the OA3 makes the amp a little dense and bassy in a system/room, masking the mids, upper mids, and highs a bit, you can definitely enhance the sound stage and clarity with an OB3, OC3, or OD3, each progressively "de-saturating" the sound more. The players generally stay in the same soundstage postion, but the "meat" of each instrument is chilled a bit, leaving the rest of the presentation aspects more space. The mids and upper mids awaken a bit as the low-mids and bass chill a bit. Ambient information takes more space in the sound. The instruments themselves became a bit more spacious and clear, but also the space around them.

So though I imagine the feedback circuit could be described similarly, I would say VR changes cause a less dense, less saturated sound, but no sense of diffusion. Perhaps leaner or bigger describes it in a general way.
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« Last Edit: 11/11/13 at 15:51:28 by will »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #212 - 11/15/13 at 03:00:24
 

I made myself laugh tonight...I said something out-loud that we've probably each thought in our head (well, except for Lon maybe).

I was reading through the MK IV web page for probably the 12th time, and I read the line "the last amp you'll ever want"  and I said to myself - Yeah, till the MK V comes out...

Which made me smile, because I'm hoping the Mystery Amp helps me avoid upgrade-itis for a while...then the audio gods smited me for such blasphemy by whispering in my ear "till Steve comes out with an OTL amp in the next few years...."  :(

I was startled out of my revere by Brianne banging on the bathroom door asking if I'd died on the toilet  ;D
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patshrews
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #213 - 12/18/13 at 04:00:17
 
Good evening. Just got my MK 4 this afternoon. It was packed in the Pelican Case, with the tubes packed in a separate box. Installed the tubes and hooked it up. Sound is nice. I still need to get the right speakers to fully appreciate it. Nice to finally have it!  Thanks to Decware for answering questions so professionally.
Smiley

pat
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Lord Soth
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #214 - 12/18/13 at 08:17:09
 
Hi Pat,

Welcome to the club. Smiley

Right out of the box, I was surprised by the 3D holographic soundstage.
The Torii MK4 should be in full bloom after around 150hrs.
Have fun.
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #215 - 12/18/13 at 10:56:18
 
Congrats! Welcome!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #216 - 12/18/13 at 18:42:33
 

Congrats! Get that burn in time going! I'm constantly surprised how much burn in seems to make a difference.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #217 - 12/18/13 at 21:58:37
 
Iim cooking mine every day now and it sounds better and better.
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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #218 - 12/18/13 at 23:15:49
 
Mine is coming out of the case today, and going into burnin mode in the second system. Excited!
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PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #219 - 12/18/13 at 23:30:43
 
Alright, glad it made it, you have a IV now. Keep us posted.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #220 - 12/18/13 at 23:32:50
 
You guys and your "second system"
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #221 - 12/18/13 at 23:37:31
 
I have a second system because my lovely woman loves great sound in the bedroom. And she'd rather listen there. Quite a good motivation to have a great second system!

We're living apart now, but when she next comes to visit she's going to really enjoy the bigger and better bedroom I have now and the improved system. That may be the only place we listen!
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« Last Edit: 12/18/13 at 23:38:14 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #222 - 12/19/13 at 03:00:10
 
LR,

Now that I finally have another Decware amp, my second system is really just now starting in a real way. It is in my small work building and happened sort of organically, and sort of for self preservation!....I mean, ever since I got my Torii MkIII and room tuned in, putting in my old NAD amp when the Torii had to get work was truly painful. Even though that was a nice solid state amp, and I still had it in my tuned room, and hooked in with all the rest of my stuff, cables, vibration stuff, the Zstage, and 944s, the lot.....it just sounded wrong and therefore was not an awakening experience of being "in the music" like the Torii provides here. Well really "awakening" does not cover my feeling from my system...it is like medicine to me it is so comfortable, real and beautiful.

I realized then two main things. One- I fit the profile "Decware....therapy for Audiophiles." And second, I love the natural sound of impeccably presented music so much, my life is simply not as fulfilling without it.

That leads to the self protection part. I have been working up to another Decware amp for a long time. With two, it is unlikely I will be without one!

Now the organic part. I really love my 944s, but in many conversations with ZYGI, starting with my potential interest in his one-off Fuglies...can you figure out the two words that make that name? These speakers were I believe a sort of variation on the HR-1 concept, if I recall, with a nice single driver facing forward and a radial on top...The price was right and I had that niggling for a second pair of speakers for the workshop. One thing led to another, the main thing being Bob's love for the HR-1. So I finally got there and ordered a pair of HR-1s. Luckily he had a couple revelations while making mine that made his already well loved speaker better.

Then of course, I have a few extra cables around from all my explorations there, and loads of tubes, and after years of loving my Zstage (especially with the jupiter caps and two inputs!), then I was finally working toward a Rachel for my second amp....and the CSP had been in my mind for a long time, so I ordered a CSP2+ (that miraculously became a CSP3 for a few of us on the list) at the same time as the Rachel. Now I love the CSP3 in a different way than my modded Zstage.....hmmm two preamp stages I love now.

Unfortunately, in my rooms, the Rachel (though really sweet, especially with the CSP3), after the Torii, it was just not enough. But at this point I am in deep and can't turn around...So for more power....two Rachels and the CSP3, or a MkIV. I am thinking, my god, me being a big tube roller and 2 Rachels needing 4 input tubes, I could not use my great collection of input pairs and would have to buy matched quads. Since 6N1P have never satisfied me, really no current production tubes that I know of either...that could get ugly being a tube freak. Also, after a few talks with Steve, the MkIV made sense.....and a few months later.....a second system!

And that MkIV, with a quad of cryo'd Tungsol KT66, and just a few hours, I know that with burnin and tuning to taste, I am going to love this amp... I am one lucky and happy camper!
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« Last Edit: 12/19/13 at 06:03:10 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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stone_of_tone
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #223 - 01/07/14 at 03:08:17
 
I share your enthusiasm will.

I ordered the Torii IV.  

The next year will be fun pitting my ZMA up against the IV.  A very fun problem to have!  Even though it is only Monday...I'm crackin' a cold one.  Cheers, Stone

I should add....I have no plans to sell either. The "pitting" will be to discover their nuances....and to enjoy both.  

It is all about usable power for both the ZMA & IV. Steve put it best:
"(this is btw the epitome of usable power)", whether it be with the Corner Horns or Gallo 3.1's or JanZen's....in reply #102 IMHO.

Mantra: Usable POWER!
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« Last Edit: 01/07/14 at 03:54:49 by stone_of_tone »  

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will
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #224 - 01/07/14 at 05:27:18
 
Hey Stone. I have thought about very efficient speakers, but I like my speakers, so for now prefer a little power. The MkIV is burning in nicely..maybe 320 hours. About 220-250 was a break through, and I am waiting for the next, but it does sound very good now.

I am still exploring, hunting tube combos for the sound I like most. It is like the MkIII, but not. It uses tubes pretty differently in serious listening. Its tendency here is sort of between the sweet, textural warmth of a Rachel, and how I have my MkIII tuned...linear and transparent with a touch of warmth. It is interesting how it is warm, but also very clear and smooth. For inputs, it makes 6922s sound closer to how PCC88/7DJ8s sound in the MkIII, more open and textural. Definitely a triumph for Steve in my book. I just need more time to know the amp before really talking about it, but I am liking it!

Excited to hear about your Mystery!

Will
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PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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stone_of_tone
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #225 - 01/07/14 at 17:47:33
 
Cool will, look forward to your further impressions of the IV. I am 12 weeks out on receiving it.  First things first, I need to get the ZMA in.  -S
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #226 - 01/14/14 at 18:12:06
 
I put this in another Thread...but it belongs here:

I picked up some RCA 0C2's for my Torii IV coming in March. However, they arrived in RCA NOS boxes....but they are Motorola's. All good?
Please enlighten?   -S

Well da, after checking the other three boxes (I bought two pair)...the other three 0C2's are NOS RCA's. Just the one out of the four is a Motorola 0C2 (accidentally) in a RCA NOS 0C2 stamped box.

CHit happens.  The Motorola's & Ratheon NOS 0C2's kick arse too.  So, no worries.

Party on Wayne......party on Garth.    -S  
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #227 - 01/16/14 at 05:41:04
 
Hi Stone,

The NOS Motorola branded 0C2s were made by RCA.
I bought some of those from the Turkish seller NOSTUBEstore.com
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #228 - 01/16/14 at 15:34:26
 
Cool, thanks LS.    -S
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #229 - 02/13/14 at 21:58:49
 
Will it drive a MAGNEPAN MMG SUPER set-up? Maggie site stresses a power amp must deliver twice its rated output at 8 ohms nominal into a 4 ohm load.

I'm a relative novice trying to put together a good system-

Turntable- Roksan Radius 5.2 c/w Goldring 2400 moving magnet cartridge in Nima arm.

Is this sensibly matched, is a pre-amp needed, will this do?---
WEE - Dynamic to Electrostatic Headphone Converter  :-/
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #230 - 02/14/14 at 13:28:11
 
JIMJFOX, I owned Maggie 1.7s awhile back and they really need more power output than the Torii design.  They will no doubt play up to mid listening levels, but you won't be able to get proper support for dynamics or upper listening levels.

I own speakers now that are rated at 87dB and they are a much easier load than my Maggies.  Even still, I have a ZMA on order to get that last layer of output should I need it some day.  Today the Torii gives me good output but I'm in a small room.  

You might ask here if any Torii owner lives near you and would be willing to try their amp with the MMGs.
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #231 - 02/14/14 at 14:05:24
 
Many thanks for your knowledge- guess I'll have to look for a solid state amp... pity. UNLESS- high end headphones?
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Lon
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #232 - 02/14/14 at 14:27:45
 
The Monos would probably do it, and the Mystery amp may. The price jump to the Monos is probably prohibitive. . . the Torii to the Mystery amp is sizablle but not as huge.
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JIMJFOX
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #233 - 02/14/14 at 15:00:58
 
Thanks- I looked at those but as you say the price is more than I can spend...
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jsm71
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #234 - 02/14/14 at 19:52:35
 
If you are on a budget a number of Maggie owners run Emotiva SS amps with great success.  Try the planar forum on Audio Asylum for more ideas.  Good luck in your search.
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maddog07
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Re: New Torii MKIV
Reply #235 - 02/14/14 at 20:16:46
 
JIMJFOX,

I sent you a PM about an affordable solid-state amp that myself and two other local audio buddies have found to be extraordinarily synergistic with Maggie's.  I own one of them myself and can recommend it for driving late model Martin Logan electrostats as well.  It's not just good value for the $$, it's "good" period and competes at about any price point IMO and experience. 

I am also a Torii owner... and as much as I love my Torii, it is not the amp for Magnepan's. Maggie's simply need more voltage drive to "get it up".  I have used my Torii with my electrostats, and it works/sounds better than one might expect.  But it is not an ideal synergy.  My 98db full-rangers, on the other hand, make music as beautifully as I've ever heard, when driven by the Torii.  Synergy is everything, followed by room acoustics and then personal preference and taste.  There are many paths leading to the ultimate destination of audio nirvana.  There is no "one" anything that will be right for everybody.  But if you are committed to your Maggie's I strongly encourage you to audition the amp I PM'd you about.  They have a no risk policy - costs almost nothing to try....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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