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Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables (Read 10657 times)
Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #90 - 10/29/13 at 14:21:05
 

Lon, do you believe in that "static from the floor" "get them off the floor" thing? I've not experimented with that at all, so I'm reserving any thoughts till I try it myself.

That said, my speaker wires already don't touch the floor, because my setup is sorta like Steve's in that I have a rack in the middle, and the Styx wire is rather stiff...so I can pretty much run gentle arcs from the binding posts, across the glass, right to the back of the speakers...so I might be "bridging" the wire already.

Is your wire spaced out all along the length of the wire? I could try that as well if you think it made a difference. I was even thinking about making wood blocks to keep the wires spaced out a specific amount down the whole length.

Just thinking out-loud as I do. When someone posts something interesting, it gets the gears turning in my head.   Roll Eyes
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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #91 - 10/29/13 at 15:08:58
 
LR,

I believe in that if there is very little or very thin insulation around the wire. I did the off the floor and spaced apart thing with the Styx because I used to do that with cryo'd Cat-6 wire and it made a distinct difference. With the Styx. I'm not sure it did. With this Double Helix wire it does,
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #92 - 10/29/13 at 15:45:33
 

Cool. Thanks for your input, Lon. Every little bit helps!

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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #93 - 08/19/14 at 06:21:15
 
Just wanted to revisit this thread as there is so much awesome info in it.  And that I finally had my "Lon" moment or cable epiphany! Cheesy

When I first purchased my Omega Speakers, Louis (the owner), was in the middle of designing 3 different drivers for his RS7 line.  

(a) RS7 (regular drivers from 44 - 20kHz),
(b) RS7V (vintage drivers from 44 - 15kHz),
(c) RS7A (alnico drivers from 44 - 18kHz).

At the time of purchase Louis only had the Vintage drivers ready, so he sent those to me and told me to let him know if I liked them.  At the time I started looking for cables I had a pair of 14g OFC copper cables that I picked up for like $20 and they were decent enough, but I always felt there was something missing at the top end of the speakers, so I thought I needed cable that wasn't as warm as copper and decided to try a few silver cables.  I tried the Clear Days and a couple of others listed above, but they did not make enough of a noticeable difference (for the money).  Then LR sent me some Zen Styx like cables and they really gave a little shimmer on the top end.  They were by the far the most effective at adding a little something to the top end that I felt was missing using the RS7V drivers and I was mostly using this in a near field listening situation.

After living with the Vintage drivers for a while and moving to a new place where I'm further away from the near field position than I was before ... I came to the conclusion that despite the great midrange, they were just too rolled off in the highs for my tastes.  Even though I'm almost 49 and I can't hear too much above that these days, I still felt as if something was missing and things such as cymbals did not decay as much as I would have liked and sounded a tad muffled, it was almost as if the drummers were in the back alley of the recording studio (not in the same room).  So I contacted Louis and told him, he said the Vintage drivers are tuned that way for a specific sort of sound and being the great guy he is, Louis sent me a pair of the RS7 regular drivers which have an extended upper range in comparison (free of charge).

So I swapped the new Regular drivers in and sent the old ones back to Louis and tried not to listen too critically until I got a hundred hours or so on them.  But I noticed right away that something was not sounding right and every cymbal tap (no matter if it was a hi-hat, ride and even gongs and cowbells) all I heard was "tisk, tisk, tisk".  Well I gave them some time, but the "tisk" sound never went away and it was getting to me so badly that it's all I could hear and focus on when listening to music so it was basically ruining my musical enjoyment.  

I was very bummed out and thought that I actually made a turn for the worse by getting the new drivers and by their extended range were now showing other weaknesses/problems within my setup.  So I went through a process of elimination ... first I tried the source and it did not make a difference, then with and without the preamp and that made no difference either.  So then I thought screw it, maybe it is just a dirty little secret that single driver owners never talk about and I was getting some type of Doppler effect, so I'm going to buy a new set of speakers.  The problem with that is with the Taboo I'm limited to and need very efficient speakers and they can get expensive, so I spent a month or so reading up on efficient speakers and what else was out there, but came to the conclusion that I could not afford another pair of speakers and I was just going to have to tough it out.

It was at that point I remembered reading a post by Dave (from Dave's Cables which is one of the original venders I was looking into in the first place) on the Audio Circle forums that certain silver over copper cables can introduce a tizziness to speakers that was especially apparent in efficient single drivers that don't use crossovers.  At the time I blew it off because (1) the Vintage drivers were too rolled off to notice any tizziness, and (2) Dave sells speaker cables and thought that perhaps he was just looking to get me interested in his cables a little more Grin.  BUT as a last ditch effort I went to my garage and got out my original OFC $20 copper cables, swapped then back in and voilà ... all tizziness = gone!

It was at that point I came to my first conclusion that speakers cables may be more system/speaker dependent than I thought.  My second conclusion was that even though the old cables fixed the tizziness problem, things sounded dull and did not have the liveliness of the Zen Styx style cables.  So I contacted Dave (Dave's Cables which is now ZenWave Audio) and thanked him for posting that as I didn't even think it could have been the cables, we exchanged a few emails and he said he would send me out a couple of his cables to see if I liked any of them better than what I was currently using and if I did he would make me a pair and if not no worries just send them back at his expense, so I couldn't refuse and a couple days later I got a box of his goodies.

He sent me a pair of his SL version of UP-OCC speaker cables in 20g and 17g sizes.  The 20g is a side by side run and the 17g has a braided geometry (he also sent me a couple different pairs of his interconnects to try out ~ the ZenWave DD which uses Dueland Silver and ZenWave D3 which is a UPOCC Silver and Gold alloy).  Back to the speaker cables ... they actually look like and are about as thin as shoestrings ... in fact if you swapped them into a pair of Chuck Taylors I don't think anybody would be the wiser Cheesy.  When I first got them I was sort of expecting a hefty cable similar to the Zen Styx and/or my OCF 14g copper cables, but they are pretty light and flexible.

* These are pictures of the demo 17g, not the finished product which is much nicer.




Well I've never listened so intently to speaker cables before. Literally I've been swapping the 2 speaker cables back and forth and even had my lady and my 15 year old boy both sit down with me at separate occasions for a good intensive listening session and they both gave me "the same" feedback. I tried not to get involved with their decisions and let them both know that there is no right or wrong with the cables and to just let me know which ones they liked better and why. What was unexpected is that we all came to the same conclusions on sound and preference.

We listened to 3 songs on each cable ~

(1) Ani DeFranco - 32 Flavors. I chose this song as it has great sort of breathy female vocals and there is a lot of percussion involved (especially in the beginning).

(2) Miles Davis - Saeta (from Sketches of Spain). I chose this songs as the percussion starts off very delicate and clicky (if that's even a term) and then builds, and the sound stage moves from left to right subtly ... one minute you're hearing percussions on one side and then horns move to the right ... really just a mesmerizing track.

(3) Neil Young - Cortez The Killer. This has to be one of THE most classic rock songs of all time, the guitar work is outstanding (no doubt as its one of Rolling Stones greatest guitar solos of all time), but the cymbal work on this track is especially outstanding in the recording as well. I can't think of another song in my library that matches the awesome recording of the cymbals and percussion on that track.

All tracks were 192/24 hi-res and used with a McIntosh C220 preamp, Decware Taboo MK II amp, Rega DAC, Omega RS7 Loudspeakers and an Asus VivoPC with Windows 8.1 and JRiver MC 19 (line leveled and volume was set the same throughout the entire listening duration).  The speaker cables used were Dave's SL UPOCC Copper in 17 and 20 gauges and compared to my 14 gauge Oxygen Free Copper cables.  All with bare terminations which is how I prefer them (with tinned/silver soldered ends to keep them from fraying).

I don't know a lot of audio terms, so I'll just try to explain the differences and what I heard with each one.

I first tried the 20g side by side as they are the least expensive and (being the cheap bastard that I am) if I could get away with a cheaper version that didn't make that huge of a difference compared to the more expensive version then that's one that I'm going to go for. Grin

First off, both the 20 and 17 gauge speaker cables are fast compared to the Oxygen Free Copper cables I had before. And both cables are good at the retrieval of information. But to be 100% honest, the thing was that even though the 20g were better than the OFC copper cheapy cables I had in there, I could not justify the price difference.  After first demoing the 20g I again thought that I just don't have the golden ears that Lon, Stone, Will and a lot of you other guys seem to have.

But that is where the road ends. After swapping in the braided 17 gauge and began listening, I was taken aback immediately! First off, we all thought that the percussion instruments sounded live, as if they were almost in front of us. The 20 gauges were good at this as well, but they sounded as if the drummer was further in the background in comparison.

The 17's however sounded as if the drummer was literally in front of us. Things that were in the background moved forward as if on the same stage or plane as the other players. I've never heard this happen on another cable and seriously ... I never thought that speaker cables would have this dramatic of an effect on my system, but with the 17s there has been a retrieval of information and a placement of the musicians up front that I was not expecting to happen. To say that this made a difference in my musical enjoyment is an understatement as I couldn't stop listening to music going way into the early AM.

OK, so here's my comparison of Dave's 17ga vs 20ga after a couple weeks of listening. The 20 gauge seems faster and the bass seemed a tad more taught and focused, they were better than the cheap 14g OFC cables I had in there and if I never heard the 17g braided cables I would have easily chosen them over the 14g OFC. However the 17's retrieved WAY more info, the decay of instruments (especially cymbals) was off the charts and spooky real, the bass (while not as taught as the 20g) was fuller and the tones overall much richer, and the 17g preserves fine detail in note decay and reverb trails better than anything I've heard to this point. IMO, the 20 gauges are really good, but the 17's are probably the most significant upgrade to my system that I have heard to this date.

It's at this point I began to say to myself ... Hmmm now I know what Lon and you other guys with the Golden Ears have been talking about all this time! Grin

Sorry for the long winded exercise in getting my thoughts together about these cables, but just wanted to say if you're looking for a good set of cables at a reasonable price, the 17g braided is only $219 plus shipping (if you go with bare terminals like myself, however adding spades or plugs are extra) definitely put the 17g and 20g on your list to demo.

As an aside note, by having these speaker cables in my system I am able to hear and notate other discernable tweaks within my setup such as interconnects, etc.  Who would have thunk it? Roll Eyes

Edit: I almost forgot to say that the RS7 Regular Drivers have hit a sweet spot for me as well, IMO they are better than the Vintage drivers by a fair margin and have the other nuances that I was looking for as far as an extended upper range while still preserving the excellent midrange, speed and detail that single drivers are known for.  I won't be getting rid of these any time soon ... well unless I trade up into one of his newer Outlaw designs with his top of the line Alnico Hemp Cones. Wink
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« Last Edit: 08/19/14 at 08:39:47 by beowulf »  
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #94 - 08/19/14 at 06:35:18
 
Great news beolwulf!
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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #95 - 08/19/14 at 11:04:48
 
Ah, one of these days I hope I have a "Lon" moment!

Glad you found "just the right cable." And the price is really right!
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #96 - 08/19/14 at 15:45:28
 
Great writeup beowulf!

About the Golden Ears thing - I really don't think as many of us have super-hearing as it seems - I honestly believe that it's just paying attention, and learning what to listen for.

For example, I have a (much younger) friend I know has some pretty amazing hearing, but he doesn't have the vocabulary or know what to listen for. So when he listens to my system, all I get from him is "it sounds very even". But I bet if I sit him in front of piano and violin and have him really focus on the attack and decay of the instruments, the sound of rosin on the bow, the way the soundboard on the piano resonates after the string is muted - and then listen to the room itself - how you can hear some slap back from the back wall, or how the violin sounds fuller from the reverberation of the stage area. If you sit someone down in your listening room with that core education, suddenly they hear all that in the recordings; simply because they know what it's supposed to sound like, and now have the vocabulary for it.

beowulf, your experience with those cables shows you're right up there with all the other "golden ears".  You've got a great system from your description!

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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #97 - 08/19/14 at 19:29:06
 
Thanks guys, I just wanted to get this out while it was fresh in my mind.

@LR, I believe you're right and it is a matter of learning how to listen.  In my case, I was having problems with percussion instruments (especially cymbals), things didn't sound right so that is what I was focusing on at first, but by focusing more intently not only did I sort out the percusiion problems, but I was listening so intently that other nuances started to appear within the songs, etc. that I never really thought about before.  

Before I would just put a cable in and think OK it sounds good, or hmph I don't hear anything ... next.  But this time I was doing things more scientifically than before, where I used only 3 songs that I was familiar with, choosing those songs based on certain criteria, etc. and maiking sure that things like volume were all matched, etc.  It was a great learning process and it not only made me more aware of what my system sounds like as a whole, but also what everything in the chain sounds like independently.  

For instance I was using Rega Couple 2 interconnects and thought they were pretty good, but found out shortly within this past couple weeks that they are not even in the same league as the Decware Silver Reference Cables and Dave's DD Dueland Silvers, then I found out that I also have preferences to which interconnect cables go to the source components and which go to the amps, etc.  I've ditched the Regas for Dave's ZenWave DD Dueland Silver Interconnects as these things (albiet not as nuetral as his D3 Silver Alloy cables) are real tone monsters and have this beautiful sound to them, however I only use them from the source to the preamp, because they can be too much of a good thing using them in the entire chain so I use the Decware Silver Reference from the preamp to the amp.
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #98 - 08/20/14 at 16:57:50
 
Beowulf,

I have been thinking about your posts, and along with the fun of careful listening, and the glorious epiphany moments, the stand out things to me were:

1) new drivers
2) new speaker cables

Then everything else woke up. Since you tried various Sp Cables before of good repute, and based on your comments about the new drivers, it would seem that the drivers might have been the big change that facilitated the revelation of the rest. At least after they settled down a bit.

Then the difference between speaker cables became apparent if they were any better or worse.

It is really great that ICs and all are really showing now.

It makes me wonder how the cables you tried before would add up now, and since you have the silver on copper cables, it may be interesting to listen to them again after the drivers have several hundred hours. Not that they would necessarily be good or bad, just probably different after the new drivers, speaker cables, and ICs have settled in.

Could be a good test anyway some day.
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« Last Edit: 08/20/14 at 16:59:53 by will »  

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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #99 - 08/20/14 at 22:10:49
 
@ Will, yes it crossed my mind that maybe the new drivers just happened to loosen up a bit at the time I swapped in my old copper cables.  But by that time I had them for at least 30 days and I usually had them running 10 to 12 hours a day at that point, so at the minimum time I put the old cables back in I had well over 300 hours on them.  Not only that but it was instantaneously better once I put in the OFC copper cables.  Stranger things have happened, but what are the chances?

But you are right, and I couldn't stop thinking that myself.  So I ended up buying a 7' pair of Dave's 17g braided cables, and I sent back the demo's to Dave.  And while I was waiting for my new cables to arrive I actually did try the old silver/copper again to satisfy my curiousity and the tizziness did occur in the upper end once again.   Why it does this I don' know as a lot of people have excellent results with the Zen Styx and the thing is IMO they have a great liveliness that my OFC Copper cables did not have, it's just that tizziness appears and it's become so annoying that it's all I can focus on.  

My only thoughts (which are very un-scientific) are that perhaps capacitors in the crossovers of more traditional 2 and 3 ways speakers can smooth things out by the time the signal gets to the drivers whereas my single drivers don't have a crossover so its almost an instaneous current delivered right to the drivers.

At any rate these new cables (the demos were 10' and now my new ones are shorter at 7') sound even better and Dave burned them in for me befrore he sent them out so they sounded good right out of the box. They have the liveliness of the Styx, but excell in soundstage, fine details and nuances, decay, tones and reverberation trails that really work well with my system. Whereas the OFC copper were warm, but dull in comparison and the Styx are more sterile, intoduce a tizzines and do not have the immense sound stage, nor can  they compete with the other nuances.  Of course this is with my setup and other people's impressions may not be as drastic.

Another thing is I believe you're right in regards to the new drivers exposing things to where I can hear all sorts of changes in the chain which I couldn't before, definitely a combo of the extended upper range of the new drivers and the right cables in there have taken my system to a new level.
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #100 - 08/20/14 at 23:26:07
 
Cool....I am glad to hear you verified the tizzy thing, at least with those wires and drivers.

That is great the Dave's 17 gauge cables do it so well! They sound just right in your system. I would guess a bigger gauge might be necessary for less efficient speakers, but Morrow and especially Mapleshape seem to have defied that theory, at least to some degree. But in your case, the 20 AWG from Dave's was not near as good as the 17, right?

One thing that occurs to me in terms of comparison of your three cables beyond Dave's being really good quality wire, is the braiding. Every cable I have tried was more revealing if the composite gauge was made up of smaller wires twisted or braided. I think this really works for bringing out subtleties and at not masking them with smearing, apparently a condition of bigger wires like the styx.

Not always the best sound, but always more clear in my experience. Dave seems to have the combo of wire and geometry for the best sound, revealing all nicely.
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« Last Edit: 08/20/14 at 23:27:45 by will »  

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mark58
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #101 - 08/21/14 at 00:43:29
 
I thought I'd add my two cents.  In both my primary and secondary systems I've been using 10 ft Zu Audio Libtec speaker cables that have been doing a great job with all my speakers...HR-1s, Zu Audio Souls and Omega Super Alinco 7 XRS speakers.  They are no longer available from Zu's site since they have simplified their product line but they are still made and sold via ebay auction.  The most recent pair I bought cost $152.50.  You can have any terminations you'd like after winning your auction.  The overall gauge is 11 AWG and you can see on the cross-section in the pics it's made up of multiple smaller strands.  It's got a copper core but with some silver component...not sure how it works but there is none of the tizziness with these.  I even think you can return them if you don't like them after a 60 day trial as stated in the auction write up.  Anyway, check out the listing and read some reviews.  Let me know if anyone else ends up using them. Mark.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zu-Audio-LIBTEC-10-foot-3-0m-matched-hi-fi-or-mastering-...
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« Last Edit: 08/21/14 at 00:45:26 by mark58 »  
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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #102 - 08/21/14 at 02:31:22
 
@ Will, yes I would say if your speakers have a lower sensitivity and/or crossover and generally require more than a couple watts to drive them you may need a larger gauge, but I don't think it would hurt to try the 17g to start off with.  The cool thing with Dave is you can ask him to toss in a couple different runs and then decide which you like best after a few days of listening.

Dave's an Omega Speaker owner himself and been experimenting for quite a while with gauges and different styles of braiding and I believe that the braiding really gets it right with this speaker/cable combo.  I haven't tried them with my Rega Brio-R yet, but I'm liking what I'm hearing so much with the Decware/Mac combo that I just don't want to experiment with the solid state Rega right now. Cool

Yes, the UPOCC 17g were better in my system by a fair margin and I'm not sure if it's just the larger gauge or a combination of the braiding and gauge that made it so, as I only had those two gauges and the 17g was already braided and I couldn't take them apart (as I would have never been able to re-braid them like that again Grin).

That being said even though my old OFC cables are an even larger gauge at 14g ~ they are not on the same planet as the 17g braided cables.  In tune with that ~ the OFC 14g are quite a bit larger than the UPOCC 20g is, but are still not as good as the 20g, although the differences between the OFC 14 and UPOCC 20g were not as drastic.

@ Mark - yes I was actually thinking about the Zu cables at one point and thought they seemed especially good bargain.  I also like that connection point of Zu Speakers to Zu Cables.
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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #103 - 08/24/14 at 09:50:10
 
Video Review of Dave's Cables (aka ZenWave Audio).  The first part of the review focuses mostly on the interconnects, but at the end he talks about the speaker cables.  Overall, its a pretty good review and inline with what I thought about the DD and D3 interconnects as those are the ones I got a chance to demo.

In the end I purchased a set of his DD interconnects (not because I needed to smooth things out as the review indicated, but because they had a beautiful tone to them that my girl and I really took a liking to after several listenings).  The wire in the DD is made by Dueland Audio, which are most famous for their caps, resistors, etc.. but they also make a wire that is made of a pure silver with oil impregnated silk sleeving.  Although this wire is not as neutral compared to his D3 interconnects, it has incredible tone to it, I love it on my Rega DAC source, but it was too much of a good thing on the Preamp to Amp where I still preferred the Decware Silver Reference or the D3.  So I'm using a combination of 2 different interconnects Dave's DD from source to Preamp and Decware Silver Ref from Preamp to Amp, however I will be purchasing a ZenWave D4 for that position later on.

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Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #104 - 08/24/14 at 16:25:22
 

I like the mini-video at the end of the review.  :)

You guys are making me want to try out some really high end interconnects and see what happens. But for the cost of those D4 XLR 1m, I could probably get a CSP3.

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