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Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables (Read 37895 times)
beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #50 - 08/31/13 at 08:35:33
 
Quote:
will said,
Actually I believe I recall Morrow saying to let them work in a bit when changing systems, or after prolonged non-use. Lots of little wires with lots of dielectric likely the culprit.


Paul from Clear Day told me the same thing ... he said that ... although the cables he was sending me were very broken in to let them play at least 10 hours in my system before any critical listening.  I have a pair of the Clear Day Shotguns coming tomorrow so looking forward to hearing them in my setup.  He still doesn't have a Double Shotgun pair to send me just yet.  He's a great guy to deal with though!
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ZENCDUSER
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #51 - 08/31/13 at 14:33:50
 
I've used Clear Day single run cables in the past, and have used a 12 ft pair of Mapleshade Clearview Golden Helix cables for the past two years with Hornshoppes, and now Omega Super 3S.  I bought them used for $100 ( about 170 new).  Great clarity at all freqs,  and wide soundstaging.  They do require several hundred hours of break-in to eliminate some upper frequency harshness, despite the thin dielectric.
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #52 - 08/31/13 at 15:27:56
 
Beowulf,

I look forward to your impressions with the clearday edit: double shotguns in your system/room. Looking at emails, I tried the singles and then shotguns. The shotguns had more bass info, were very clear in my system...a good clear...not edgy....also very fast, but for me lacked some mid-bass weight and warmth, so were not quite for me  balance-wise. It looks like I had the SE34I.2 with MG944s for my testing.

Anyway, hope they fit!

Zencduser,

how do you feel about the bass and mid-bass with the mapleshades?
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« Last Edit: 09/01/13 at 06:04:10 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #53 - 09/20/13 at 19:18:59
 
I decided to try the Mapleshade Double Helix Plus and burned them in for over 300 hours in my  second system. Then I put them in place of the Decware Zen Styx in the main system.

They are not coming out any time soon. It's hard to best the Styx in my main system, but these have all that I love about the Styx and a bit more "mellowness"--a bit of forwardness gone. And I think I hear what will does in the Styx, that little bit of smearing. . . that's diminished in the Double Helix. Really like what I'm hearing, a lot.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #54 - 09/20/13 at 20:33:50
 

Interesting. (looking those up) It's a neat idea how they have them "shielded" I wonder if the thin gauge twist helps with that smearing...

I could totally make a set of these using the same wire as the Styx, just in the appropriate gauge. I wonder if it would be the best of both worlds.

I don't get how the ground is connected though...it almost looks like it would have to all drain down the amp side negative...hmmm...I guess I just need to figure out what gauge they are using and see!



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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #55 - 09/20/13 at 20:41:36
 
I'm pretty sure the cryo treatment plays a factor here as well.

Just plain great sound right now. Expensive (and I don't DYI) but worth it to me. . . . Nice change.  And I think I can use the Zen Styx in my Dad's system, should work (the PS Audio xStream Statement cables wouldn't connectors were too large.)
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« Last Edit: 09/20/13 at 21:03:18 by Lon »  

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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #56 - 09/20/13 at 21:28:58
 
the Mapleshade's are speaker wire taken to its most elemental form - "less is more".  Minimal insulation, single solid core conductors.  I don’t have the Double Helix Plus… just the plain vanilla Golden Helix and they are a revelation in clarity if you have been listening to the garden hose variety passive equalizer boutique “wire” that costs more than the components you have them connected to…!!!!  
The extra wire added to the braid in the Double Helix is meant to act as a “shield drain”, connected to the circuit at only one end.  I can’t comment on the “plus” version… probably cryo’d, but Mapleshade marketing is not spinning it as that exactly.
I can’t tell you their exact gauge… never seen it in print, haven’t tried to determine it… but its less than 12 awg. As compared visually to some other wire known to have 12 awg. Solid conductors.
The stuff is pretty truthful and neutral.  If you have any nasties upstream, bright speakers or a lively room – it will tell you asap.  But if the rest of the system is up to snuff, it’s hard to beat for the bucks, if accuracy in your wires is your goal.
I think I read in one of Steve's papers or maybe even in the write-up about the Styx, that you can separate them, or twist the + and - leads together in slow twist of a couple of turns per foot and effect how they sound... try it and see is the gist here.

There are only 3 things that make up sound science and engineering for the transmission of electrical signals thru a wire, inductance, capacitance and resistance – which all figure into impedance.  And after all, we are talking about very small “distances” of signal travel here for us audio nerds.  If a given wire can pass perfect signals(measurable) at human auditory frequencies without frequency alteration, amplitude loss or phase errors… it’s a perfect conductor for our purposes.  If this wire is in a noisy environment, it might need shielding.  But after that folks, it’s all snake oil, ferry dust and Voo-Doo science… i.e. the pile of $$ you laid down for those garden hoses are “passive equalizers” that are “changing” the signal.  You may like the "change", but they are changing the signal, and not merely passing the signal as accurately as possible.  Spend your money on better components, or components that “sound” the way you “desire” and not on “wire” that changes the sound the components are making - it $$ better spent IMO and experience.

let the defensive flaming of 4+ $ figure wire begin!! ::) 
nothing prompts more heated debate than the discussion of "wire".
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #57 - 09/20/13 at 22:07:15
 

Well said, and my thoughts exactly. That's why I'm hard pressed to pay $1000 for a cable, or even $400 for that matter.
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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #58 - 09/20/13 at 23:02:38
 
Well, I had a almost 2 weeks to spend listening to the Clear Day Cables and compare them to my El Ceapo Cables2Go 12 AWG Velocity Speaker Cables.

First off, Paul (the owner) is as nice of a person as they come, he is great to deal with and has a really nice product.  From first inspection you can tell the cables are made really nice and they also look cool ... so they have some nice eye candy going on (way prettier than my current cables for sure).

Now here's where it gets sticky ... I think when I used them I got a little more sparkle in the highs compared to my El Cheapos and having the single driver Omegas - a little sparkle in the top end is a good thing IMO.  However if I left the room and somebody swapped them out on me without my knowledge I doubt I would be able to tell the difference from my old cables.

I really wanted to like the cables, but I just can't justifying spending $280 for cables where I couldn't see a huge improvement from the cables that I already have.  Can I say without a doubt that they are better?  Yes ... well maybe?  But I can't say they are $280 better than what I currently have.

I'm a vet and on limited income - so I just couldn't see that they made enough difference to purchase them (when I could use the money for something else such as music).  I'm not sure if my ears are just shot as I have been shooting guns and jumping out of aircraft for many years and all those loud noises may have caught up to me as I don't know if I can hear the details that a lot of you guys are hearing when you describe your experiences.  Maybe that or I just don't have enough experience yet.  It doesn't mean that I've given up hope on cables, so I think I will continue to audition a few more products before I decide if they can make a big enough difference to me to purchase some ... but I can at least feel confident that the current cables were comparable to a higher end brand and I can take my time to find ones that I like or make a bigger difference to me.

But the kicker is, I sent the cables back to Paul a few days ago and I think I kind of miss them Huh Grin
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« Last Edit: 09/20/13 at 23:04:18 by beowulf »  
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #59 - 09/21/13 at 00:05:04
 
the only high dollar wire whose cost can be somewhat justified IMO, are the ones based on solid silver... silver has increased in price significantly in the last few years.   And this would cause silver plated wire to rise some also... but silver-plated wire has a few microns of silver coating on it at best.  so listen carefully here and try before you buy.

The other thing that you rarely see discussed in depth, at least from the perspective that it actually affects, is the termination, or the connector.  There are a lot of very smart people with decades of electrical engineering experience, training and knowledge that will tell you that for speaker wire, the best connector is "no" connector.  Because the connector is likely to have different metallurgy than the wire, a different impedance than the wire, etc.  I think Steve even lives in this camp.  By the same notion, “no” insulation, i.e. “air” is the best insulation.  RCA plugs and jacks are a total crapshoot too… no clearly defined industry standard and they vary wildly.  The exception being 75 ohm connectors for coaxial wire for video signals and generally s/pdif digital signals also.

I’m somewhat ashamed to admit that I once fell for some of the ridiculous claims made by some of the boutique wire companies.  There came a day, when I participated in my first volume matched to within  1/10th of a volt measured at the speaker terminals AB/X test, that changed my perspective on the hi-end wire industry game forever.  Yes there is wire that generally has a certain “affect” on the sound, and sometimes the effect is desirable and sometimes not.  And there is a lot of reasonably priced wire that is “accurate” and “neutral”.  A lot of people would be stunned to discover, if given the opportunity to have it demonstrated to them, that typically, the more expensive and “exotic” the design… the more “tailoring” of the sound the wire does.  I thinks it just makes far more sense to use competent wire, based on sound, long-established, electrical parameters that can be had for reasonable costs and spend your hard earned $$ on better components… or the most ignored component of 99% of systems – room acoustics.  You’ll get far more for your $$$.

what I find quite entertaining at times, is the latest "revelation" in speaker wire or IC's, where the creator has gone to great length and in some cases, expense, to create some hi-tech solution to a problem that has already been solved long, long ago.  Yet they present it as "new", "radical", "revolutionary".  They just seem to take great satisfaction in impressing themselves with their discovery of a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.  And then they come up with some wild marketing to spin it on the naïve and gullible.  Caveat emptor applies here more than just about anywhere else, with the possible exception of the used car business, and late night infomercials!  Do not miss my point…yep… most of them do “affect” the sound – and you may like the effect, but you may not.  And you may very likely be strangling the true performance potential of your system.  But doesn’t it make more sense to use “neutral” conduits of the electrical signal, at reasonable cost, and let the components, your speakers and your room acoustics determine the sonic personality of your system?  I’m just saying…. From a logical and deductive reasoning standpoint, this just makes more sense.

Want to have some fun?  Have you ever attended the RMAF?  Of course take along your favorite reference tunes to listen to on the hundreds of systems and components on display – everybody does.  What everybody doesn’t do, is take along a set of speaker cables and a couple pair of IC’s that are their reference and/or known to be neutral/accurate in the best sense.  Not too many of the exhibitors will let you change cabling… but you might be surprised how many will.  This is not something I go around trying to do, just to see if I can get away with it.  Something I hear or detect as “wrong” has to be present before I spend my time doing this.  One year I went in to a room that had a combination of components and speakers that should have been making some righteous sound.  I had heard the gear before in other systems and even owned a different model of speaker from the speaker company and models from the amp/preamp brand before as well.  The exhibitor was in a good size room, one of the larger suites, so it shouldn’t have been all the rooms fault either.  The sound in this room was so dull, flat and lifeless it was just embarrassing IMO for the exhibitor.  So I was looking for what was “wrong”.  The only complete unknown to me was the speaker cable and IC’s in use.  No name dropping hear.  But suffice it to say, the speaker cable was huge… like a python laying there on the floor, with large “boxes” on the ends that were probably full of resistors, capacitors, inductors, lord knows what else – at least a large dose of ferry dust and real eye-candy dressing.  I thought “hmmmm”.  I kindly ask the exhibitor if I could come back late, after the show officially closed that evening and listen to the system again – and substitute my wire.  Guy looked at me like I had not two, but three heads… “why would you want to do that?”.  I didn’t tell him that his $150,000 display sucked arse.. I just said, for a “reference”.  I was genuinely interested in the speakers on display.  He said, “well, I guess we could do that – what do you have?”.  I showed him, he kind of grinned.. and said “sure”.  So confident was he, that my wires would just completely ruin this wonderful sounding system he had on display(not) and degrade it into an intolerable mass of noise.
Evening came, I went back and there were other “after hours” attendees.  There was a guy there about to write a check for the speakers on the spot.  Not sure what his reference was, but he seemed like he had drank about 4 pots of coffee too much, and just could not part with his $$ fast enough.  He definitely “drank the kool-aid” already and his credit card had already been debited.  Anyway… I had to endure him listening to this system sounding like mud, while he continued to try and convince himself that it was the greatest thing he’d ever heard.  Nothing could convince this guy that this system sounded horrible.  Throw a big heavy comforter over your speakers and you can get an idea what it sounded like.  Finally, I got my chance.  We removed the super-sonic, space-modulated, hyper-spiraled, quantum physics manipulated, etc. etc. cables and installed my lowly cables.  Fifteen seconds into the first song played, the over excitable prospective buyer decided he needed to go home and change his wires…. When he left, the exhibitor came over to me and ask me if he could use my cables for the rest of the show.  I smiled, another true believer had just been enlightened.  Then he admitted, that prior to the show, he had never heard these cables used in his equipment before… it was a manufacturer to manufacturer agreement for the show…. I kindly suggested, he might want to listen to the combination of components he was going to display at the show - “before” the show next time.  I rested my case – and took my wires with me too!  

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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #60 - 09/21/13 at 00:14:45
 
Well, I have one pair of garden hose sized speaker wire, PS Audio xStream Statement, that I bought at about a third its list cost and that I have to say sounds as good as this Mapleshade, a tad warmer, a tad more full-bodied. I'd use it in my main system as I have in the past but the length is way too short. Great sound. And the Styx are in between the two in diameter. . . great sound. Three really good choices each with their particular strengths.

More than one way to skin a cat I say.

Just hooked the Styx up in my Dad's system and I think they're going to be quite nice there, an improvement over the 16 guage Monster Cable I put in there over ten years ago.
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Douger
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #61 - 09/21/13 at 01:30:21
 
I was going to suggest that you try 12ga. stranded wire without connectors until you mentioned your Velocity meets that description. Is it feasible for you to remove any connectors from those cables? Otherwise the last I knew Home Depot sells this for .65/ft.
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #62 - 09/21/13 at 01:31:54
 
Quote:
I wonder if the thin gauge twist helps with that smearing...
I think this is a common theory and I have noticed it in several cables, each making their own attempt at "accuracy" merged with "musicality."

Reality cables uses very specific solid copper with a very particular dielectric, very specific twist pattern, very specific ends. Then loads of listening test using folks with really good ears to refine these things.

For me, they were too clear due to amazing flow by my ear, but with all the right stuff. Great frequency balance with brilliant extension, no sense of smearing, a bit of copper darkness ("warmth")...but really feeling very neutral and transparent for the most part. Finally though, they were a bit hard and cool in the mids for me. "Too good."

Paul at Clearday uses his version of right with solid silver, the right twists that change from one end to the other, just the right ends for transparency and accuracy...I found the shotguns really nice, but for me, there was not enough flow...not enough wire to get the full bass/mid-bass part of the balance, and I did not want to go there for the double shotguns at the time. I bet they are nice though.

Morrow audio uses their version of technological to create the perfectly complete cable...specifically twisted, specific wires and dielectric also, and no notable smearing, nice warmth, the SP6 has softer flow, but good and so on...good, relatively neutral and transparent cables. More musical to me than Realities, but still a little false sounding...seemingly quite good, but not exactly like music.

Styx to me are really nice, especially with 6-10 twists in a ten foot length. I heard this twisting tighten them up, solve some smearing without losing musicality.

Virtue Nirvana...still in my system for now....sort of a cross between Styx and Morrow...Full, deep and musical, the little nod in the Decware direction, and nicely clarified, presumably due to the smaller wire/helix twisting scheme of the probably pretty cheap stranded copper wires...four per connection.

Since I was doing cable rolling to explore them, I was over the spade ends on these, so I ordered some Audioquest silver bananas from music direct. I just got them on one end for now, but this made a nice change, more-or-less as I hoped..the silver clarifying things in a silvery way compared to the gold plated copper spades. NO idea what this does with inductance, resistance or capacitance, but I like what it did to the sound.

This is an interesting thread. I am enjoying it.
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 07:42:04 by will »  

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Lord Soth
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #63 - 09/21/13 at 02:32:07
 
Yes, this is a wonderful (future) resource for speaker cables.

I'm running a pair of Paul's Clearday double shotgun speaker cables in my system. They are solid silver cables at US$450 ish but the sonics are so good they are worth their "weight in gold".

Despite their solid core silver nature, they got the clarity of solid silver and a nice touch of warmth which is more typical from copper wires.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #64 - 09/21/13 at 04:24:42
 
He's not known on this forum, but I've been using Grover Huffman's speaker cables for app. nine years now. He's well known on the Steve Hoffman Music Forums (audio hardware section). A thread on Grover has been running there for close to nine  years now.

Before I found about him, I  was using Mapleshade's most expensive cables.  They were fine, but I feel Grover easily exceeded their best stuff, even with his earlier work.  His life is centered around creating what he feels to be the best interconnect, speaker, and power cables. He's pretty obsessed (for lack of a better word) about cables, and is continually upgrading his work.  He doe not have different price points, he only sells his best creations.
His background was in designing custom tube amps and preamps, but he switched to making cables ten+? years ago. He's using his own tube amp/speaker designs to voice his cables, and has several beta testers who own a variety of gear, both solid state and tube. 

I'm using all Grover wiring in my main system (Torii III-soon to be IV, ZP3, and Steve's new ZSB) and his interconnects and speaker cables within my second system  (ZSM monos and MG944 speakers).

His latest speaker cables, with very pure copper, silver, and aluminum ribbons, with passive carbon nickel shielding, sound just sublime in my two Decware systems.  
They cost $40 per foot for a pair.

He goes to a lot of trouble, fabricating the ribbons himself from pure wire (he has a patent on the cable design) and offers a generous trade-in policy.

He's always upgrading his designs, sort of like Steve, and that can get annoying when you've just bought something and he comes out with a new version...but his trade-in policy on your old cables, is pretty fair.  

You may have to wait a month or two for his cables, as he sells a lot of stuff overseas, but if you're used to waiting for Decware gear, a month or two is a walk in the park.

Yeah, I'm a friend of his, but not that good a friend (I don't get a discount).  I feel his prices are good for the quality.  Who else has $200+ interconnects with custom fabricated low mass terminations?  No off the shelf parts/wire for Grover.

Anyway, one/some of you guys out there should try his speaker cables.  I really doubt you'd regret it.

Mike in Seattle area



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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 05:57:21 by tgarden »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #65 - 09/21/13 at 11:52:00
 
If you`re anything like me and all the acronyms for cable construction, dialectrics, crystaline, six x 9, cryo treated, awg gauges, twist patterns, multiple price structure just leaves the memory banks in reject mode while you look for a one stop cable you might like to peruse the Townshend Isoldas. They`ve made this one sp cbl for donkeys years, no others. Yes a 3mtr pair will be over 1000 US ( you might be able to lose the 20% vat ) but come up not infrequently on e-bay for 1/2 that. I cant compare them to anything but old Rega cables and would agree with the reviews and site description. And they are cryo treated. They generate the bass power from the Decware amps and I have heard the very high sonics from a tube settling in. Everything else is subject to my cartridges performance, which, I have no reason to think their is any shortcomings.
In short, they are up to the task for a clean picture.
That said, if I were now looking for a pair, having not had the Isoldas then a pair of Styx would, by reputation of their amps, be high on the list.
2 ways to avoid a cable binge.
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 11:52:47 by Syd »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #66 - 09/21/13 at 12:30:26
 
Anticable, if you can't get a used pair of Decware styx
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« Last Edit: 09/21/13 at 12:31:53 by jameskk »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #67 - 09/21/13 at 17:59:28
 
Quote:
I’m somewhat ashamed to admit that I once fell for some of the ridiculous claims made by some of the boutique wire companies.  There came a day, when I participated in my first volume matched to within  1/10th of a volt measured at the speaker terminals AB/X test, that changed my perspective on the hi-end wire industry game forever.  Yes there is wire that generally has a certain “affect” on the sound, and sometimes the effect is desirable and sometimes not.  And there is a lot of reasonably priced wire that is “accurate” and “neutral”.  A lot of people would be stunned to discover, if given the opportunity to have it demonstrated to them, that typically, the more expensive and “exotic” the design… the more “tailoring” of the sound the wire does.  I thinks it just makes far more sense to use competent wire, based on sound, long-established, electrical parameters that can be had for reasonable costs and spend your hard earned $$ on better components… or the most ignored component of 99% of systems – room acoustics.  You’ll get far more for your $$$.


My hero!   Wink
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #68 - 09/21/13 at 18:17:38
 
I forgot about anticable. It is all individual, and it was some years ago I tried them, but if I recall correctly, the speaker cables excelled in overall signal flow, but were heavy and dense for me, and in the mids, a little hard edged...lacking in delicacy and texture. Same with their ICs, but to a lesser degree. I think I was comparing some homemade speaker cables made from CAT5 at the time. I kept the ICs but since I got some inexpensive MAC deals for silver, a pair of Decware silver, and made some VHaudio silver recipe ICs, the anticable ICs never stay in.

At the time there were a lot of folks really happy with them, so it could have just been me in my room.

And now I see they have discontinued the speaker cable I tried (single wire), now using more pure copper and twisting smaller wires. And they have several ICs above the ones I have, mine now being entry level with better copper.

So why am I commenting? Anticables got a lot of brilliant talk at the time I tried them from the maker and users, and they were just not that impressive to me. In theory the newer ones should be a notable improvement over the ones I had though. The purer copper and twisting schemes could theoretically solve the issues I had. I would like to hear the newer designs.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #69 - 09/21/13 at 20:39:33
 
Quote:
maddog07 said,
what I find quite entertaining at times, is the latest "revelation" in speaker wire or IC's, where the creator has gone to great length and in some cases, expense, to create some hi-tech solution to a problem that has already been solved long, long ago.  Yet they present it as "new", "radical", "revolutionary".  They just seem to take great satisfaction in impressing themselves with their discovery of a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.  And then they come up with some wild marketing to spin it on the naïve and gullible.  Caveat emptor applies here more than just about anywhere else, with the possible exception of the used car business, and late night infomercials!


This is great insight... And I'm not sure if you've ever read some of the articles on Audioholics such as Debunking the Myth of Speaker Cable Resonance, Audioquest Cable Theories Exposed and Dielectric Absorption in Cables Debunked but they are excellent articles and real engineering tests are done be Gene ... he's not afraid to get into it with cable manufacturers either ... you could say he's on the $h!t list of Audioquest and Transparent to say the least. Grin

Quote:
Douger said,
I was going to suggest that you try 12ga. stranded wire without connectors until you mentioned your Velocity meets that description. Is it feasible for you to remove any connectors from those cables? Otherwise the last I knew Home Depot sells this for .65/ft.


This is not a bad idea ... They are OFC Pure Copper after all and since they are so cheap and I already have 5 sets (I had them in a 5.1 setup a while ago) I could simply cut the bananas off a pair and go straight to bare wire to see if that makes any improvements.  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #70 - 09/23/13 at 22:23:34
 
Johns wire site is back up. http://johnswireshop.com/
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« Last Edit: 09/23/13 at 22:24:04 by Syd »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #71 - 10/03/13 at 06:24:01
 
Quote:
tgarden said,
I'm using all Grover wiring in my main system (Torii III-soon to be IV, ZP3, and Steve's new ZSB) and his interconnects and speaker cables within my second system  (ZSM monos and MG944 speakers).


He has one of the biggest followings on Steve Hoffman's forums that I've ever seen.  He must be doing something right!  I've noticed the trend seems to be going towards solid metals with Morrow, Clear Day, etc., but Grover is using ribbons with a combo of different metals ... I wonder how this compares to the others out there.  Grover's are $400 for a 10' pair with your choice of terminations which are slightly cheaper than a pair of Zen Styx.

Anybody hear of Tempo Electric?  They seem to have a nice product:

1. .9999 pure, (solid) silver wire,
2. Jacketed in an oversized PTFE (Teflon) tubing,
3. Oversized tubing = air as the dielectric constant.

Their philosophy is that:

The temper (degree of hardness) is actually more important to good sound than the ultimate degree of purity. Once we tried it, it became immediately clear that the extra soft grade of silver exhibited dramatically less glare and more detail in the upper frequencies then the more commonly available regular or medium temper wire. This is the critical area of the sound spectrum which allows us, as listeners, to perceive the minute aural cues which characterize and differentiate various performance spaces.

That said the very minimum gauge recommended for my setup would be 14 gauge at $684, but highly recommend 12 gauge at $894.  Out of my price range, but they seem like a solid design and get a lot of check marks with the latest trends.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #72 - 10/04/13 at 13:17:08
 
Tempo Electric.... same product as Clear Day....

"Foils".... Goertz/Alpha-Core copper and silver foil IC's and speaker cable... they've been making them for years(at least a decade)... along with copper foil inductors...old news... And also the "real deal".  They have been my "references" for about 6-7 years now....
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #73 - 10/05/13 at 08:31:52
 
Quote:
maddog07 said,
Tempo Electric.... same product as Clear Day....


Wow, I had no idea ... obviously the Clear Day are a WAY better value!
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #74 - 10/05/13 at 20:42:44
 
Thanks for pointing to the Tempo site Beowulf. Pleasantly informative.

As to being the same as Clearday....I don't know....it may be pretty much the same core material, Tempo (.9999 pure) and Clearday (.999 pure) soft annealed silver, but I am guessing the way they use their wire may be enough to make them sound different.

They use different gauges...Clearday's appear to be one-to-many 24 AWG wires, more wires for bigger cables, with twists that increase toward the speaker end (I believe I recall this). Tempo's appear to be 16-10 AWG individual strands (depending on amp power) twisting the pair in what looks like a relatively close twist, but not as tight as many.

Individual wire size and twist patterns seem to be big design factors with many cable makers, and their conclusions vary quite a lot it seems. Some prefer two larger wires and some many twisted smaller ones, with a lot in between (helix, double helix etc), and ribbons...a whole different thing. I found pretty notable sound changes with different twist schemes with my Styx.

Since both seem to employ a concept of air dielectric, this may not matter much, but Clearday uses PET (Polyethylene) insulation (providing air dielectric in a way I could not identify on the site), and Tempo uses oversized PTFE (Teflon) with much talk of air space. I do find it interesting that Clearday recommends a fairly long breakin since many atribute longer breaking with dielectric while air dielectric is mentioned in Clearday reviews.

Clearday's largest cable, the Double Shotguns appear to use 4 - 24 AWG cable runs per terminal. This is equivalent to 18 gauge. Tempos smallest cable is bigger, a single strand 16 AWG (other than the one they recommend for tweeters in a by-wire cable). So though not recommended by Tempo except for amps below 19 watts, a larger equivalent 16 gauge cable in oversized teflon looks like it would cost about 468 for a 3 meter unterminated pair.... 8 foot terminated Double Shotguns are 450. Don't know about 10 feet, but presumably the Tempo would be a little cheaper.

Hard to say how they would sound without direct comparison, but I guess there are enough variants to make these cables sound different.
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« Last Edit: 10/05/13 at 20:47:18 by will »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #75 - 10/06/13 at 09:12:03
 
Quote:
will said,
Clearday's largest cable, the Double Shotguns appear to use 4 - 24 AWG cable runs per terminal. This is equivalent to 18 gauge. Tempos smallest cable is bigger, a single strand 16 AWG (other than the one they recommend for tweeters in a by-wire cable). So though not recommended by Tempo except for amps below 19 watts, a larger equivalent 16 gauge cable in oversized teflon looks like it would cost about 468 for a 3 meter unterminated pair.... 8 foot terminated Double Shotguns are 450. Don't know about 10 feet, but presumably the Tempo would be a little cheaper.


Hi Will, the way you put it makes sense and I spoke too soon.  I can see the Tempo's are a bit cheaper after all.  It seems that they use a little better wire as well (one 9 more Tongue) and starting off with the higher gauge makes sense.  I read their paper about the "no termination should be used on speaker cables" study so I'm going bare wire for speakers now on.

They also offer the Arthur Loesch Tube Preamp which sounds pretty nice albiet expensive.
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« Last Edit: 10/06/13 at 09:15:06 by beowulf »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #76 - 10/06/13 at 11:19:59
 
I recall having come across an audio article out there with the following conclusions :

1. Bare Termination sounds best - only problem is exposure to elements and greater oxidation in the long run.

2. Spades are 2nd best.

3. Banana plugs are ranked in 3rd place sonically.

I went for the spaded option for my Clearday double shotguns based on the above factors.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #77 - 10/06/13 at 16:57:39
 
My own tests show that bare wire sounds best

And spades are the more expensive terminals.   Grin

I do agree with what you posted.
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« Last Edit: 10/06/13 at 17:50:46 by Lonely Raven »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #78 - 10/06/13 at 17:13:01
 


After even more breakin I am really enjoying the Mapleshade Double Helix PLUS in my main system. I didn't think I would prefer them this much to the Styx, but I do. The Styx are sounding very good in my Dad's system.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #79 - 10/06/13 at 18:35:57
 
Lon,

Now that they are broken in, can you describe what you like about the Double Helix PLUS compared to your long used Styx.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #80 - 10/06/13 at 18:50:21
 
I ran bare wire connections for years. But then I ended up with several cables I like, and I have a funky setup for changing cables...a cabinet with holes in it for the cables to pass through. I have the cabinet heavily damped in different ways, but still I use herbie's grungbuster material to cut any remaining vibration at the holes.

It is a beautiful old Indonesian teak wardrobe, but between the holes (three per side) and the Torii being tucked in under a shelf, what a pain in the butt to change speaker cables.

Maybe I just don't want to hear it, but by adding good quality bananas and maintaining the contacts well, I am getting good sound and they make cable changes easier.

When I changed the good quality gold plated spades on the Virtue cables to silver bananas, I liked the sound better. It is likely mostly the preference for silver in this case, but still...variables present....
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« Last Edit: 10/06/13 at 19:19:26 by will »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #81 - 10/06/13 at 22:00:18
 
Honestly will, I find that hard to answer. And on top of that I'm not positive that the speaker cable IS fully broken in.

I want to also add that I am doing a very NON-Pierre Sprey thing with this set of cables: I'm not following his advice and keeping each leg as far a part as possible etc.--and I'm even letting a portion of them run along the floor. I know, I could get in trouble! I did try as suggested at first but seemed to get a texture and sound that reminded me a lot of RFI and got a better tonal balance ignoring those instructions. I haven't tried that again, haven't seen a need to.

The thing I can most closely relate the difference to is the difference between the stock Torii caps and the Jupiter caps in the Torii: Things are just more cohesive, "together," a tad quicker, but full, no thinning.
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« Last Edit: 10/06/13 at 22:01:05 by Lon »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #82 - 10/06/13 at 22:43:09
 
If people do go with naked wires ... what (if any) product can they use to clean the bare wires and how often should this be done?  I live in the San Diego area which has pretty dry, desert type atmosphere if that makes a difference.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #83 - 10/06/13 at 23:56:37
 
With my copper wire terminated Grover's (multiple braids of silver/copper/aluminum ribbons for the cable itself),  I polish the copper ends with 0000 steel wool once a year, and then coat with Caig Progold.  I usually retreat with Progold, every six moths or so.

With my silver wire terminated Grover set, I do very little, as he once told me that silver oxide conducts electricity nearly as well as "clean" silver. That being said, I probably put some Progold on them once a year.

Grover used to make his speaker cables with silver terminations, but there were always a few people shipping them back to be resoldered after busting the ends off.  Never had a problem with the three silver pairs I've owned.   He changed to a heavy copper termination last year.

Is there a difference sonically between the otherwise identical, copper and silver terminated pairs I own? Not sure, maybe I'll swap them someday and find out.

In terms of the environment up here influencing the rate of corrosion...
Yeah, we  have rainy fall/winters up here.  However, the summers are often very dry.  

The weather this last summer, was wonderful.  You had to be here.  I miss it already.

Mike in Seattle area
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« Last Edit: 10/07/13 at 01:20:09 by tgarden »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #84 - 10/07/13 at 05:24:17
 
Like for tube pins or sockets, I have cleaned wire ends with deoxit cleaning solution. 99% alcohol would likely work quite well too. Especially for solid wire, either would likely work really well wiping it off with just a cloth. Like Tgarden, on stranded wire, I have used very fine steel wool, but after deoxit cleaning solution.

Finally, for stranded cable, I have mimicked what it looks like Decware did on my Styx, and used silver solder on the ends of stranded cable to solidify and seal. Makes it easy to clean too.

I also really like Caig ProGold for conditioning. I think I recall its purpose to be to fill microscopic pits in the metal along with providing a very thin conductive coating. So it smoothes and increases the contact area. I have found though that too much, too long can make the sound worse. So I put it on the cleaned connection very thin and wipe it off with a clean cotton cloth pretty much right away.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #85 - 10/07/13 at 06:10:23
 
Thanks for the update Lon.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #86 - 10/11/13 at 01:40:59
 
@ will and tgarden ...

Thanks for the tips on cleaning them, I will definitely try them out. Cool
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #87 - 10/11/13 at 03:02:18
 
Beowulf

Coming your way!

I capped the ends of the wire in silver solder to keep them from splaying, but left the silver plating untouched (equals bare wire).

I hope you like it.

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #88 - 10/11/13 at 04:49:37
 
WOW!  Sexy is the word for the Lonely Raven Silver Reference Cables Cool

I can't wait to hear them!  THANKS AGAIN!!!
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« Last Edit: 10/12/13 at 00:59:40 by beowulf »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #89 - 10/29/13 at 14:15:32
 
Well, I finally did what Mapleshade recommends (as much as is possible in my set up) and separated the legs of the Double Helix Plus as much as possible and lifted it all off the carpet.

Now that the cables are really burned in there's a significant difference, they've become even more "invisible" or "not there." Very very happy with these cables. I was fearing they may be thin and edgy but they're not at all. Seem very fast but full.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #90 - 10/29/13 at 14:21:05
 

Lon, do you believe in that "static from the floor" "get them off the floor" thing? I've not experimented with that at all, so I'm reserving any thoughts till I try it myself.

That said, my speaker wires already don't touch the floor, because my setup is sorta like Steve's in that I have a rack in the middle, and the Styx wire is rather stiff...so I can pretty much run gentle arcs from the binding posts, across the glass, right to the back of the speakers...so I might be "bridging" the wire already.

Is your wire spaced out all along the length of the wire? I could try that as well if you think it made a difference. I was even thinking about making wood blocks to keep the wires spaced out a specific amount down the whole length.

Just thinking out-loud as I do. When someone posts something interesting, it gets the gears turning in my head.   Roll Eyes
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #91 - 10/29/13 at 15:08:58
 
LR,

I believe in that if there is very little or very thin insulation around the wire. I did the off the floor and spaced apart thing with the Styx because I used to do that with cryo'd Cat-6 wire and it made a distinct difference. With the Styx. I'm not sure it did. With this Double Helix wire it does,
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #92 - 10/29/13 at 15:45:33
 

Cool. Thanks for your input, Lon. Every little bit helps!

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #93 - 08/19/14 at 06:21:15
 
Just wanted to revisit this thread as there is so much awesome info in it.  And that I finally had my "Lon" moment or cable epiphany! Cheesy

When I first purchased my Omega Speakers, Louis (the owner), was in the middle of designing 3 different drivers for his RS7 line.  

(a) RS7 (regular drivers from 44 - 20kHz),
(b) RS7V (vintage drivers from 44 - 15kHz),
(c) RS7A (alnico drivers from 44 - 18kHz).

At the time of purchase Louis only had the Vintage drivers ready, so he sent those to me and told me to let him know if I liked them.  At the time I started looking for cables I had a pair of 14g OFC copper cables that I picked up for like $20 and they were decent enough, but I always felt there was something missing at the top end of the speakers, so I thought I needed cable that wasn't as warm as copper and decided to try a few silver cables.  I tried the Clear Days and a couple of others listed above, but they did not make enough of a noticeable difference (for the money).  Then LR sent me some Zen Styx like cables and they really gave a little shimmer on the top end.  They were by the far the most effective at adding a little something to the top end that I felt was missing using the RS7V drivers and I was mostly using this in a near field listening situation.

After living with the Vintage drivers for a while and moving to a new place where I'm further away from the near field position than I was before ... I came to the conclusion that despite the great midrange, they were just too rolled off in the highs for my tastes.  Even though I'm almost 49 and I can't hear too much above that these days, I still felt as if something was missing and things such as cymbals did not decay as much as I would have liked and sounded a tad muffled, it was almost as if the drummers were in the back alley of the recording studio (not in the same room).  So I contacted Louis and told him, he said the Vintage drivers are tuned that way for a specific sort of sound and being the great guy he is, Louis sent me a pair of the RS7 regular drivers which have an extended upper range in comparison (free of charge).

So I swapped the new Regular drivers in and sent the old ones back to Louis and tried not to listen too critically until I got a hundred hours or so on them.  But I noticed right away that something was not sounding right and every cymbal tap (no matter if it was a hi-hat, ride and even gongs and cowbells) all I heard was "tisk, tisk, tisk".  Well I gave them some time, but the "tisk" sound never went away and it was getting to me so badly that it's all I could hear and focus on when listening to music so it was basically ruining my musical enjoyment.  

I was very bummed out and thought that I actually made a turn for the worse by getting the new drivers and by their extended range were now showing other weaknesses/problems within my setup.  So I went through a process of elimination ... first I tried the source and it did not make a difference, then with and without the preamp and that made no difference either.  So then I thought screw it, maybe it is just a dirty little secret that single driver owners never talk about and I was getting some type of Doppler effect, so I'm going to buy a new set of speakers.  The problem with that is with the Taboo I'm limited to and need very efficient speakers and they can get expensive, so I spent a month or so reading up on efficient speakers and what else was out there, but came to the conclusion that I could not afford another pair of speakers and I was just going to have to tough it out.

It was at that point I remembered reading a post by Dave (from Dave's Cables which is one of the original venders I was looking into in the first place) on the Audio Circle forums that certain silver over copper cables can introduce a tizziness to speakers that was especially apparent in efficient single drivers that don't use crossovers.  At the time I blew it off because (1) the Vintage drivers were too rolled off to notice any tizziness, and (2) Dave sells speaker cables and thought that perhaps he was just looking to get me interested in his cables a little more Grin.  BUT as a last ditch effort I went to my garage and got out my original OFC $20 copper cables, swapped then back in and voilà ... all tizziness = gone!

It was at that point I came to my first conclusion that speakers cables may be more system/speaker dependent than I thought.  My second conclusion was that even though the old cables fixed the tizziness problem, things sounded dull and did not have the liveliness of the Zen Styx style cables.  So I contacted Dave (Dave's Cables which is now ZenWave Audio) and thanked him for posting that as I didn't even think it could have been the cables, we exchanged a few emails and he said he would send me out a couple of his cables to see if I liked any of them better than what I was currently using and if I did he would make me a pair and if not no worries just send them back at his expense, so I couldn't refuse and a couple days later I got a box of his goodies.

He sent me a pair of his SL version of UP-OCC speaker cables in 20g and 17g sizes.  The 20g is a side by side run and the 17g has a braided geometry (he also sent me a couple different pairs of his interconnects to try out ~ the ZenWave DD which uses Dueland Silver and ZenWave D3 which is a UPOCC Silver and Gold alloy).  Back to the speaker cables ... they actually look like and are about as thin as shoestrings ... in fact if you swapped them into a pair of Chuck Taylors I don't think anybody would be the wiser Cheesy.  When I first got them I was sort of expecting a hefty cable similar to the Zen Styx and/or my OCF 14g copper cables, but they are pretty light and flexible.

* These are pictures of the demo 17g, not the finished product which is much nicer.




Well I've never listened so intently to speaker cables before. Literally I've been swapping the 2 speaker cables back and forth and even had my lady and my 15 year old boy both sit down with me at separate occasions for a good intensive listening session and they both gave me "the same" feedback. I tried not to get involved with their decisions and let them both know that there is no right or wrong with the cables and to just let me know which ones they liked better and why. What was unexpected is that we all came to the same conclusions on sound and preference.

We listened to 3 songs on each cable ~

(1) Ani DeFranco - 32 Flavors. I chose this song as it has great sort of breathy female vocals and there is a lot of percussion involved (especially in the beginning).

(2) Miles Davis - Saeta (from Sketches of Spain). I chose this songs as the percussion starts off very delicate and clicky (if that's even a term) and then builds, and the sound stage moves from left to right subtly ... one minute you're hearing percussions on one side and then horns move to the right ... really just a mesmerizing track.

(3) Neil Young - Cortez The Killer. This has to be one of THE most classic rock songs of all time, the guitar work is outstanding (no doubt as its one of Rolling Stones greatest guitar solos of all time), but the cymbal work on this track is especially outstanding in the recording as well. I can't think of another song in my library that matches the awesome recording of the cymbals and percussion on that track.

All tracks were 192/24 hi-res and used with a McIntosh C220 preamp, Decware Taboo MK II amp, Rega DAC, Omega RS7 Loudspeakers and an Asus VivoPC with Windows 8.1 and JRiver MC 19 (line leveled and volume was set the same throughout the entire listening duration).  The speaker cables used were Dave's SL UPOCC Copper in 17 and 20 gauges and compared to my 14 gauge Oxygen Free Copper cables.  All with bare terminations which is how I prefer them (with tinned/silver soldered ends to keep them from fraying).

I don't know a lot of audio terms, so I'll just try to explain the differences and what I heard with each one.

I first tried the 20g side by side as they are the least expensive and (being the cheap bastard that I am) if I could get away with a cheaper version that didn't make that huge of a difference compared to the more expensive version then that's one that I'm going to go for. Grin

First off, both the 20 and 17 gauge speaker cables are fast compared to the Oxygen Free Copper cables I had before. And both cables are good at the retrieval of information. But to be 100% honest, the thing was that even though the 20g were better than the OFC copper cheapy cables I had in there, I could not justify the price difference.  After first demoing the 20g I again thought that I just don't have the golden ears that Lon, Stone, Will and a lot of you other guys seem to have.

But that is where the road ends. After swapping in the braided 17 gauge and began listening, I was taken aback immediately! First off, we all thought that the percussion instruments sounded live, as if they were almost in front of us. The 20 gauges were good at this as well, but they sounded as if the drummer was further in the background in comparison.

The 17's however sounded as if the drummer was literally in front of us. Things that were in the background moved forward as if on the same stage or plane as the other players. I've never heard this happen on another cable and seriously ... I never thought that speaker cables would have this dramatic of an effect on my system, but with the 17s there has been a retrieval of information and a placement of the musicians up front that I was not expecting to happen. To say that this made a difference in my musical enjoyment is an understatement as I couldn't stop listening to music going way into the early AM.

OK, so here's my comparison of Dave's 17ga vs 20ga after a couple weeks of listening. The 20 gauge seems faster and the bass seemed a tad more taught and focused, they were better than the cheap 14g OFC cables I had in there and if I never heard the 17g braided cables I would have easily chosen them over the 14g OFC. However the 17's retrieved WAY more info, the decay of instruments (especially cymbals) was off the charts and spooky real, the bass (while not as taught as the 20g) was fuller and the tones overall much richer, and the 17g preserves fine detail in note decay and reverb trails better than anything I've heard to this point. IMO, the 20 gauges are really good, but the 17's are probably the most significant upgrade to my system that I have heard to this date.

It's at this point I began to say to myself ... Hmmm now I know what Lon and you other guys with the Golden Ears have been talking about all this time! Grin

Sorry for the long winded exercise in getting my thoughts together about these cables, but just wanted to say if you're looking for a good set of cables at a reasonable price, the 17g braided is only $219 plus shipping (if you go with bare terminals like myself, however adding spades or plugs are extra) definitely put the 17g and 20g on your list to demo.

As an aside note, by having these speaker cables in my system I am able to hear and notate other discernable tweaks within my setup such as interconnects, etc.  Who would have thunk it? Roll Eyes

Edit: I almost forgot to say that the RS7 Regular Drivers have hit a sweet spot for me as well, IMO they are better than the Vintage drivers by a fair margin and have the other nuances that I was looking for as far as an extended upper range while still preserving the excellent midrange, speed and detail that single drivers are known for.  I won't be getting rid of these any time soon ... well unless I trade up into one of his newer Outlaw designs with his top of the line Alnico Hemp Cones. Wink
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« Last Edit: 08/19/14 at 08:39:47 by beowulf »  
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #94 - 08/19/14 at 06:35:18
 
Great news beolwulf!
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #95 - 08/19/14 at 11:04:48
 
Ah, one of these days I hope I have a "Lon" moment!

Glad you found "just the right cable." And the price is really right!
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #96 - 08/19/14 at 15:45:28
 
Great writeup beowulf!

About the Golden Ears thing - I really don't think as many of us have super-hearing as it seems - I honestly believe that it's just paying attention, and learning what to listen for.

For example, I have a (much younger) friend I know has some pretty amazing hearing, but he doesn't have the vocabulary or know what to listen for. So when he listens to my system, all I get from him is "it sounds very even". But I bet if I sit him in front of piano and violin and have him really focus on the attack and decay of the instruments, the sound of rosin on the bow, the way the soundboard on the piano resonates after the string is muted - and then listen to the room itself - how you can hear some slap back from the back wall, or how the violin sounds fuller from the reverberation of the stage area. If you sit someone down in your listening room with that core education, suddenly they hear all that in the recordings; simply because they know what it's supposed to sound like, and now have the vocabulary for it.

beowulf, your experience with those cables shows you're right up there with all the other "golden ears".  You've got a great system from your description!

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #97 - 08/19/14 at 19:29:06
 
Thanks guys, I just wanted to get this out while it was fresh in my mind.

@LR, I believe you're right and it is a matter of learning how to listen.  In my case, I was having problems with percussion instruments (especially cymbals), things didn't sound right so that is what I was focusing on at first, but by focusing more intently not only did I sort out the percusiion problems, but I was listening so intently that other nuances started to appear within the songs, etc. that I never really thought about before.  

Before I would just put a cable in and think OK it sounds good, or hmph I don't hear anything ... next.  But this time I was doing things more scientifically than before, where I used only 3 songs that I was familiar with, choosing those songs based on certain criteria, etc. and maiking sure that things like volume were all matched, etc.  It was a great learning process and it not only made me more aware of what my system sounds like as a whole, but also what everything in the chain sounds like independently.  

For instance I was using Rega Couple 2 interconnects and thought they were pretty good, but found out shortly within this past couple weeks that they are not even in the same league as the Decware Silver Reference Cables and Dave's DD Dueland Silvers, then I found out that I also have preferences to which interconnect cables go to the source components and which go to the amps, etc.  I've ditched the Regas for Dave's ZenWave DD Dueland Silver Interconnects as these things (albiet not as nuetral as his D3 Silver Alloy cables) are real tone monsters and have this beautiful sound to them, however I only use them from the source to the preamp, because they can be too much of a good thing using them in the entire chain so I use the Decware Silver Reference from the preamp to the amp.
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #98 - 08/20/14 at 16:57:50
 
Beowulf,

I have been thinking about your posts, and along with the fun of careful listening, and the glorious epiphany moments, the stand out things to me were:

1) new drivers
2) new speaker cables

Then everything else woke up. Since you tried various Sp Cables before of good repute, and based on your comments about the new drivers, it would seem that the drivers might have been the big change that facilitated the revelation of the rest. At least after they settled down a bit.

Then the difference between speaker cables became apparent if they were any better or worse.

It is really great that ICs and all are really showing now.

It makes me wonder how the cables you tried before would add up now, and since you have the silver on copper cables, it may be interesting to listen to them again after the drivers have several hundred hours. Not that they would necessarily be good or bad, just probably different after the new drivers, speaker cables, and ICs have settled in.

Could be a good test anyway some day.
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« Last Edit: 08/20/14 at 16:59:53 by will »  

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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #99 - 08/20/14 at 22:10:49
 
@ Will, yes it crossed my mind that maybe the new drivers just happened to loosen up a bit at the time I swapped in my old copper cables.  But by that time I had them for at least 30 days and I usually had them running 10 to 12 hours a day at that point, so at the minimum time I put the old cables back in I had well over 300 hours on them.  Not only that but it was instantaneously better once I put in the OFC copper cables.  Stranger things have happened, but what are the chances?

But you are right, and I couldn't stop thinking that myself.  So I ended up buying a 7' pair of Dave's 17g braided cables, and I sent back the demo's to Dave.  And while I was waiting for my new cables to arrive I actually did try the old silver/copper again to satisfy my curiousity and the tizziness did occur in the upper end once again.   Why it does this I don' know as a lot of people have excellent results with the Zen Styx and the thing is IMO they have a great liveliness that my OFC Copper cables did not have, it's just that tizziness appears and it's become so annoying that it's all I can focus on.  

My only thoughts (which are very un-scientific) are that perhaps capacitors in the crossovers of more traditional 2 and 3 ways speakers can smooth things out by the time the signal gets to the drivers whereas my single drivers don't have a crossover so its almost an instaneous current delivered right to the drivers.

At any rate these new cables (the demos were 10' and now my new ones are shorter at 7') sound even better and Dave burned them in for me befrore he sent them out so they sounded good right out of the box. They have the liveliness of the Styx, but excell in soundstage, fine details and nuances, decay, tones and reverberation trails that really work well with my system. Whereas the OFC copper were warm, but dull in comparison and the Styx are more sterile, intoduce a tizzines and do not have the immense sound stage, nor can  they compete with the other nuances.  Of course this is with my setup and other people's impressions may not be as drastic.

Another thing is I believe you're right in regards to the new drivers exposing things to where I can hear all sorts of changes in the chain which I couldn't before, definitely a combo of the extended upper range of the new drivers and the right cables in there have taken my system to a new level.
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