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Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables (Read 8954 times)
seikosha
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #30 - 08/20/13 at 12:14:38
 
Once Morrow has your email addy, you'll get bombarded with notes from them.  They try really really hard to make sales.  For me, the incessant emails are a bit obnoxious.

If you are interested in the cable and it's the one you want, make him an offer and see what happens.

Good luck and let us know.
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Mini Torii, SE84CKC, Omega Super3XRS, Oppo95 as Transport, Shiit Bifrost UBER Dac, PS Audio P3 Powerplant
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #31 - 08/20/13 at 15:49:53
 
I unsubscribed to the Morrow emails and it worked.

Beowulf,

You mention the SP5 in your post. Remember, for me, the SP6 is the cable Mike Morrow upgraded me to and that resolved the bass issues for me. I can't comment on the SP5.

The breakin is horrible on these cables! Mike's comment about MY breakin is not true. Including their breakin my SP4s had well over 600 hours on them when I called to say they did not get it for me. I just found this in an email...maybe he didn't believe me, or maybe it is a stock line. They really did take 600 hours or so in my system, so when I got the SP6 I put them in my workshop system and did not listen to them in the main system until they had about 620.

Unfortunately, it was a few days after the 60 day return when I noticed my time was up for the SP4s...and a week or so when I finally spoke with Mike. He would not take a return then. They had gotten close to sounding good, and I wanted more hours on them thinking I might keep them.... but I was over so can't really blame him. The interaction did not "feel" good though, and it does not surprise me what you read on Audiogon. I did end up with the SP6 though, cables that I liked at no extra cost. He could have just left me hanging with cables I did not find satisfying. BTW I looked it up and after discounts I paid 448 for the SP4 including their factory breakin.

I did some listening between the Styx and Nirvanas, but have not tried the Morrows in the comparison thinking they were off the table. I will add the Morrows to the mix. More later.

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« Last Edit: 08/20/13 at 16:29:41 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #32 - 08/20/13 at 17:24:45
 
not shagging Morrow or their product at all - never actually seen, nor heard.  But I have "studied" them in depth... and I have a pretty good idea what they are made out of.  The cost of these cables is "labor" I highly suspect... the materials are pretty inexpensive... individually insulated, small gauge, solid-core, conductors...can you say "litz" wire.. or CAT5 wire... pick your recipe... OFC, six 9's, OCC.. silver plated... blah, blah, blah... 4 pair Cat5, plenum rated(gets you Teflon insulation), 23 or 24 gauge.. I have seen some some Cat6 that is 22 gauge even.. strip off the outer jacket and twist or braid the 4 pairs to meet your design goals for inductance/capacitance.. all kinds of info. about this on the www.  At 24 gauge wires, you will need 16 individual 24 awg. wires to be equivalent to a 12 awg conductor, so two runs of 4-pair Cat5 per pos./neg. leg of your cable.  Stuff is less than .50 cents a foot at my local Electronics supply house.  If you have a friend who is an electrician... just have him cabbage on to the leftovers on spools after they do a job - free... it will take you some time to make them, but like I said, the "cost" is in the "labor".  Techflex sheathing to dress them up, will costs you more than the wire any way you go.  Pick the termination of your choice, crimp them on, then solder over with silver solder... cover the solder/connections with some heat shrink... you're done.  I've tried this/done this.. works pretty good to my ears.  Mine tend to have a warm, natural sonic personality, with quite airy and delicate sounding high frequencies.  The antithesis of bright or forward.  Are they the most accurate, most correct - who can say?  Who cares?  They make music, they were cheap and if you enjoy DIY'ing... the experience will provide you with "satisfaction"!!!  Get r' done...!!!
  Smiley
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #33 - 08/20/13 at 20:06:43
 
Maddog,

Thanks for the Goertz reminder. I almost went there a while ago and then forgot since the ZStyx made me happy. Even retail the Goertz cables seem a good price...10 gauge w/ rhodium bananas 331.50

I agree on DIY CAT 5… a good inexpensive alternative. As to the Morrows being like CAT5 or CAT6 DIY cable...pretty different..at least compared to the ones I made with three teflon CAT5 cables per side...or were they CAT6??? If i recall, mine came to out to 11 gauge. But I did not go there on the stripping and braiding having found a recipe where the guy had tried some of the difficult braiding and said just putting three cables together was very good to him (spitting the center one to positive and negative and silver soldering). They sounded really good to me, as you said warm and airy. Warm was operative with mine when I changed to the also warm, but more open and airy ZStyx....but these Morrows are different.

One difference is: the Morrow SP1 has 12 of their silver coated copper wires, and the SP6 I have, have 96 wires. So these are little wires! Much smaller than CAT5 individual wires. I don't know the geometry, but all that dielectric is presumably why they take so long to break in.

Also, as with the Decware Styx, I hear what I think of as copper with silver plating. The copper/silver combo seems to have the body and articulation of good copper, but with the addition of more sense of micro detail, particularly noticable in the upper mids and highs from silver, and this of course is part of the low mid and bass sound.

I am trying to compare the cables I have and am listening to the SP6 now to get them warmed up and to reacquaint myself with their signature. They are very well balanced, detailed but smooth, warm and clear without blurring or smearing, very good soundstage dimensions and saturation, while also having a nice musical "blending" of the tonal ranges…Right off hand, with this tube set and amp settings, they are possibly a little too good for me...a little too "designed" or "smart" perhaps... if you know what I mean...they appear to be looking for a perfect blend of warmth, articulation, and musicality across the spectrum, but maybe perfect is not perfect with music in my room! Just a first impression after not listening to them for a while.

More later as I get a better sense of the Styx, SP6, and Nirvanas. So far I like each better after I change over to them. They are similar in warmth and body, the Morrow being a little less bassy, but fine. Within the warmth, I would call the Nirvanas most dynamic and articulate feeling in the bottom at this point, but to me, by comparison, they suffer a little from being pure copper...they miss some of the upper mid and high "silver" sparkle of the other two. They still may be my favs though…or maybe not.

After listening the last couple months to the Nirvanas, at first the Styx sounded too sizzly on top and a bit too muddled on bottom, but they had a very nice sparkle and sweet musicality. Thinking they are a classic example of Morrow's contention that "skin effect" of a big stranded cable is a real problem for blurring, smearing and subtle distortions, for fun, I just tried giving them a few twists, and they did tighten up on the bottom and smooth out a bit on top…solving skin effect ???? not in the usual way with many wires, but it did something….perhaps electromagnetic stuff is an operative factor that twisted cables solve.

Hmmm..more listening.
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #34 - 08/20/13 at 21:30:28
 
10 - Roger all that... I continue to be amazed at the differences I hear just based on changing "wire" between components.  I have also read in depth "white papers" about connectors(or lack of) being even more important than the wire itself.  This absolutely holds true for 75 ohm digital cables or video cables... but I have found this to also hold true for unbalanced RCA IC's to a great degree.  Since there is no bona-fide std. for RCA connectors, including their impedance, how a given connector "works" or doesn't "work" with a particular type and length of wire is a crap shoot, unless you have some expensive equipment and knowledge on how to test/measure all the electrical properties of the completed cable.

So Morrow is using even smaller than 24 gauge wire.. interesting... skin effect at audio frequencies becomes null & void at around 21-22 gauge.  Using smaller gauge than that only brings more "insulation" material into the equation when using greater # of individual wires to get to the required aggregate awg size - usually a bad thing.

I have some IC's designed by the late great John Dunlavy, with documented lab measurement results for each serial numbered pair.  I have seen one of these disassembled.. the conductors are silver - and fine as a human hair.. the insulation is some kind of "foam", i.e. mostly air.  At the time I acquired these, I A/B'd them with my audio buds and they were indistinguishable from the AQ Diamonds I had at the time.  Subsequently the Diamonds were sold, as the Dunlavy's were much less expensive.. and much more flexible to boot.  Dunlavy also designed speaker cables - two models that were designed to have a specific impedance, one model was 4 ohms, one was 8.  Each meant to be used with speakers of approximately the same average impedance. I think the electrical theory involved here might have been one of "reflections".  I had some of these at one time - should have kept one pair.  They were the "fastest" and "clearest" speaker cable I ever heard.  Perhaps too fast and too clear for some systems/rooms.  They were absolutely made up of several small gauge, individually insulated wires, that appeared to have been twisted tightly around a flexible core material and compressed into the larger overall jacket.  That's about all I know about the details of their construction.  I believe Goertz touts their speaker cable as having an approx. 4 ohm impedance also, again talking about "reflections".  I'm not an electrical engineer, just a an audiofool hobbyist.  I have never heard Goertz wire sound anything but very good to excellent everywhere I've tried it.  Now, having said that, I have used other wire that has some specific sonic "trait", i.e.  bright, warm, fat bass, etc. to try to fine-tune an overall system sound that needs more or less of something... but overall, at least in the last 7 yrs or so, I always come back to the Goertz if the rest of the components in the system are competent and have their act together.. and if the room is "tamed".

On another note... have you experimented with magnet wire in Teflon tubes?  Minimal insulation material here.. enamel.  And mostly air in the oversized Teflon tube...  I have done some IC's this way, terminated with LoK RCA's from homegrownaudio, but I haven't tackled speaker cable made this way.  I find little to criticize about "the sound" of IC's made this way.  The gist of all this experimentation, in my experience, is that if you have time,  patience and some basic mechanical skills, you can make yourself some world class sounding/performing wires for your system, for very little $$$
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #35 - 08/20/13 at 22:23:37
 
Interesting Maddog...

My favorite ICs are DIY VHAudio silver. Not exactly cheap for the parts, but... made with silver wire that is insulated with cotton, wrapped in a specific way around teflon tubing, and finally wrapped with teflon tape for outer protection. Mine are terminated with Eichman gold. They are really good ICs in my book.

I get the concept of too much dielectric being a problem, but as you suggest it often does seem to be how the maker finds synergy that accomplishes his goals rather than shear technological standards. I don't know what Morrow is up to with so many insulated strands, and can't find the gauge equivalents, but it works whatever he has done. As I said earlier, the SP4 (48 wire runs) was too little wire for me, leaving the sound with my system too lean, and the SP6 (96 runs) was just enough here, though not as full and deep as the bigger Nirvanas or Styx. Morrow says this is because his design eliminates distortions and blurring and therefore bloat, and this can sound less bassy. I guess it is a bit of both from what I hear, and I bet his SP7 (120 wires) sounds a bit bigger in the bottom.

The only magnet wire stuff I have heard in anti-cables and for some reason i did not fully fall for them...a little too warm, big and hard maybe..It has been a long time. Another case of tastes since their cable is liked by many, but also a case of technological intelligence not quite winning for me.

And by the way, it sounds like the Virtueaudio Nirvanas may use similar concept to the Dunlavy speaker cables...I think the helical geometry is around a central core... Actually, this is what is happening with the
VHaudio ICs I made, a helix wrap around a teflon core.

With your Torii, which Goertz wire do you prefer. The 13, 10 gauge or 7 gauge?
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« Last Edit: 08/20/13 at 22:35:31 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #36 - 08/20/13 at 23:00:39
 
the stuff I have had for many years, is what Goertz called "Serpent" series and I have the "Python" model.. which is 10 ga. single wire or 13 awg. Bi-wire.  My pair is bi-wired.  I've used these for years, as every speaker I've owned(until recently) has been bi-wireable.  The Serpents were Goertz’s attempt at making their flat foil technology more conventional looking, easier to handle, and less prone to damage, by twisting the foil, and encasing it in a polymer sheath.  It appears they no longer offer these for sale.

Then along came my first DIY, single, full-range, high-efficiency drivers, xoverless pair of speakers and Decware amps(I had an SE34I to start with before the Torii).  I have used just one of the bi-wire connections from the Python’s on these speakers and they seem to hold true to their typical sonic traits I’ve come to expect – rez, air, naturalness, no zip, zing, tiz, forwardness or fatigue, excellent bass and dynamics, etc. etc. etc., blah, blah, blah... and all the normal audiophile reviewer terms.   Wink

I’m still “acclimating” to my system at the moment and the break-in process of my speakers is probably still taking place to some extent I suspect.  I at first(after 30-40 hrs) felt like I was missing some “air” up “there”.  I swapped in the Goertz IC’s in place of the Nordost’s I had used initially, and wa-la, the “air” returned.  

On the speaker cable front, my audiophile nervosa just can’t stand having that other set of bi-wire connections dangling there in the air doing nothing… so I bought a pair of the conventional Goertz MI-2 cables, copper version, 10 awg – single wire to see if these please me – both audibly and from a  psychoacoustic perspective… I haven’t had a chance to throw these into the mix yet.  I have recently acquired a whole slew of “new stuff” and am introducing each piece one at a time – lest wise I will have NO idea what is doing what to the sound!!  I just haven’t gotten to the Goertz MI-2’s yet.  Right now I’m “rolling” with a new tube preamp that is showing tremendous promise and potential for greatness….
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #37 - 08/20/13 at 23:42:30
 
will..

I have researched and analyzed VHAudio's offerings to death myself.  The conclusion I reached was: if the cost of the DIY components exceed the cost of manufactured cables I already know to sound "the best" to my ears, on many components, over a long period of time, not to mention my "time" to construct them - then I'll pass on that opportunity.  Just my philosophy on this particular aspect.  I only embark on wire experiments that seem to have a high potential for high performance for little cost and minimal time.  If the project consumes a lot of $$ and/or a lot of my time, I don't see the advantage over just trying ready-to-go, out-of-the-box products that cost less and consume none of my time.  These normally purchased used at pennies on the $$ so I can resell if they're not to my liking.

I can't remember if it was in one of VHAudio's(Chris Venhaus) DIY IC articles or not, but I think it was, where he mentioned that his home-made silver cables were a real PITA to make and bettered everything he'd ever heard, except for Goertz Silver Foil IC's.  All of my Goertz IC's(both XLR and RCA) are the silver foil ones.  And I have both gauges, 25 and 21 awg models.  I have never owned or heard the copper versions of Goertz IC's until recently, as in "this week" recently.  I bought a long 2.5m pair of RCA terminated Goertz TQ-2's off eBay.  They just arrived last Friday.  Thought I might use them for subwoofer hookup one of these days, but I have not actually used them anywhere yet.
I'm trying really hard at the moment, to "get off" the component merry-go-round.  Several trips to RMAF, led me to flea watt amps and single driver, high-efficiency, crossoverless speakers.  I have more "realistic" sound in my 2-ch system right now, than I've ever actually had in my room in over 30 yrs of chasing the audio holy grail, maybe as good as I've ever heard.. but that's hard to say with acoustic long-term memory being what it is.  But it's certainly in that ball park.  
I really want to focus on "the music" at this point.  My only other quest, which I am working on, is a "server" based system.  So I can set on my arse and touch-screen queue what I want to listen to from thousands of choices.  If the system "involves me" emotionally and gives me goose bumps pretty regular... I'm thinking it's far time I just settled down and accepted, this is "good enough"... just relax and listen.  What do you think?   Smiley
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #38 - 08/20/13 at 23:46:02
 
Ok, again thanks for all the feedback and sharing your knowledge with me maddog and Will, also thanks for the comparisons it's really helpful!

I think I'm about there and in no particular order:

1. Dave's Cables - 10' pair of UPOCC 20 gauge wire with UPOCC spade and copper bananas = $330.

2. Clear Day Double Shotguns - 10' pair of Solid Core Silver with Silver spades and bananas (four conductors per run or 8 per speaker (4 to the positive terminal, 4 to the negative per speaker) = $470.

3. Clear Day Shotguns - 10' pair of Solid Core Silver with Silver spades and bananas (four conductors per run or 4 per speaker (2 to the positive terminal, 2 to the negative per speaker) = $270.

4. Grover Huffmans Cables - 10' pair of copper, silver and aluminum ribbons suspended in air tubes with spades and bananas = $400.

5. Goertz MI2 - 10' pair of 10 gauge OFC copper with silver spades and rhodium bananas = $343.

6. Morrow SP6 - 10' pair of SP6 with spades and bananas = $350 (this is if they accept my offer).


The Clear Day Double Shotguns are over my budget considerably and Gover's is really stretching it past my comfort zone. So what do you guys think of what's left over?
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« Last Edit: 08/20/13 at 23:53:13 by beowulf »  
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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #39 - 08/21/13 at 00:06:23
 
If "UPOCC" copper is what I think it is (Ohno Contuous Cast Copper) I'd check those out; interconnect and power cables with that copper have made there way into my system and have not been removed. Smiley
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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beowulf
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #40 - 08/21/13 at 08:40:47
 
Quote:
Lon said,
If "UPOCC" copper is what I think it is (Ohno Contuous Cast Copper) I'd check those out; interconnect and power cables with that copper have made there way into my system and have not been removed.


Yes Lon, that is what it is ... with Dave's Cables you can even order them with the Furutech FT-211/212 Copper Spades and Locking Banana Plugs which are also Ohno Continuous Cast Copper.

On a side note, my Omega Speakers got here!  I was wrong with the specs I originally listed and they tested at 95dB ... ok, so I dug out an old pair of Impact Acoustics Velocity Cables that cost me all of $19 bucks about 7 years ago, plugged them in and while I'm not nearly as versed as many here on this forum when it comes to different audio components, but WOW, I'm really impressed with the speakers even though they are brand new out of the box.

Not ony that but this is the first time I finally plugged in and heard the Taboo MkII (as the speakers I previously had were so inefficient that I didn't even bother hooking the Taboo up to them as I knew I wasn't going to keep them), so can you imagine it sitting for close to 4 months and not being able to listen to it?  It was driving me crazy! Grin

Anyways ... now I know what you guys are finally talking about when it comes to Decware and it's everything you guys desctibed it to be.  A lot of people already know that I also have a Rega Brio-R and I think very highly of it, I swapped them out several times today for A/B tests and although the Brio-R is good - it cannot compete against the Taboo ... I've heard a few different tube amps, but I'm sold that this is one of the best amps I've ever heard. Cool
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« Last Edit: 08/21/13 at 08:42:20 by beowulf »  
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Lon
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #41 - 08/21/13 at 11:26:04
 
Great! So glad you're finally hearing the Decware sound!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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will
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #42 - 08/21/13 at 20:35:07
 
Awesome Beowulf. I did not realize you were not using your system yet. Since you like it so much as is,  I might wait on the cables until you get a sense of your system burned in. This is what I came up with for the cables I know.

I have had a difficult time getting clear on these cables, but I guess this is a good sign...to me they are all really quite good. Lately I have been sticking them in and listening sort of critical/passively for hours instead of hard core listening seat analysis to try to get realer on what I like and don't like.

I have compared the Styx, SP6, and Nirvanas in critical listening and critical "passive" listening. The 5-6 twists I put in the Styx completely solved the tendency (with my current adjustments) toward a little top sizzle and bass muddle. The bass tightened up a bit and the top is now very clear, but smooth and lovely. I feel like they are sounding very, very good.

I like them all for slightly different reasons, each doing some things best. The cables were surprisingly similar in presentation… warm, deep, dynamic, and balanced musically in their own ways. Especially the Decware and Nirvanas have a similar tonal range....a very complete tonal range.

After the first run through I adjusted the Torii a little to try to balance its tone with all three cables. I have not touched the adjustments since.

In critical listening, each time I changed from one to the other, I liked that one better.  In critical "passive" listening, things have sorted out a bit more, having gotten more used to the signatures.

The Decware has more sparkle, I think probably from the silver plate on copper strands and this is a very nice thing. They are also very smooth, the ranges of frequencies blending musically, but to me not excessively. It appears this is in part due to what (by comparison) sounds like slight blurring, particularly mids down. Very pleasant blurring though. These cables have a sophisticated sweetness to me. But the Styx are out of your current budget range.

That they are really broken in ….thousands of hours as opposed to perhaps 200 on the Nirvanas, and since these two are most similar, this could be important. I feel like the Nirvanas will resolve and refine more in time. This assumption is in part because they have improved over the last couple days, giving me the impression this will continue a while.

Couched in a similar pleasant warmth, body, and depth, the Nirvanas are a bit more clear and articulate than the Styx, except that extra sparkle the Styx  have upper-mids up. This is not to say the highs are flat or lacking texture…they are very good in this setup…and the cables are copper.

The Nirvanas articulation is throughout, but compared to the Styx, particularly noticeable mids down. This is not based in brightness. Something else is going on. I guess it is likely due to the muti-cable helical arrangement and lack of smearing, or subtle distortions, or electromagnetic stuff, or whatever…..Slightly cleaner bass (but still deep and musical) and slightly increased soundstage saturation are good things to me. The Nirvanas are impressive in this system/room, $150 or not.

The SP6, Though I have enjoyed using them a lot, I have never fully fallen for them, so it was good to do this listening comparison in order to get closer to understanding why. Remember, this is serious hair splitting here…these cables are really nice and likely the best of the three at articulation through the range, but still with nice musical blending.

First, I noticed something each time I put them in, and though I don't have a meter, I believe this is true. The SP6s play a touch quieter (less dB) than the Styx and Virtues indicating restriction or lack of flow to me. Still good dynamics, but a touch restricted by comparison.They are also very much about midrange detail within their particular midrange "warmth," and they have less power and impact low down, something I am a sucker for. I can more easily forget the cable if it has good flow and balance.

What I was picking up before as "too designed or too smart" may be a slight sense of lack of authenticity??? They remind me a little of the auricaps I have tried on my tweeters and in the Zstage…Analytically they sound "right", but on careful review, something gets under my skin, and finally I found the warmth is a little contrived and the sound a touch constricted…a little unnatural.

That said, I can and have enjoyed these cables plenty with the right tube sets and amp settings (same for everything here…adjustments are a key to amazing possibilities). And remember this is all my system/room and sensibilities.

Two pretty serious caveats with Morrow though. They take forever to break in and it is not pleasant a lot of the way. Also, it occurs to me that if he accepts your offer, I would be surprised if you could get out of it. For something this critical to tastes and system/room, I would want a real return possibility.

Not knowing how your system room sounds to you, or how neutral your current cables are, it is hard to recommend something…but assuming your cables are relatively neutral, if the signature of the Nirvanas sounds good for your room, I might take the risk of saving money for a tube set or two, or something else and try the Nirvanas. They are staying in my system for now. They were much more easy to listen to during break in, but if you have a second system, I would run anything you get for a while there…with the Nirvanas, I would recommend 8-9 days, and the Morrow, with their crazy amount of dielectric, I would go a full 600 hrs or 25 days.

If your system is dark and unclear to you, has excess bass problems, and you want a very open sound, I would probably tend toward trying the Cleardays. If it is darkish on the bottom with bass issues, but clear mids up, I might try the Morrows. If it has good balance, but lacks bass clarity and depth, and perhaps wants a touch of warmth, I would try the Nirvanas.

Can't comment on the other cables, but maddog has me interested in the Goertz.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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beowulf
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Posts: 734
Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #43 - 08/21/13 at 21:51:40
 
Wow Will!  What an awesome breakdown of each cables and luckily you had some of the cables that I was interested in.

The Decware Styx are a clear no brainer, but unfortunately out of my budget, so I will be on the lookout in the classifieds if a set pops up in the future.  I already have a set of of Steve's Silver Reference Interconnects and I prefer them to the Rega Couple 2 as I have been A/B them.

The Morrows seem to be really good as well ... I sent him an email on pricing on the SP6 to see what he has to say, but I think you're right about being able to return them, I have a feeling that if he cut me that great of a deal he may not go for it.

The Virtue Audio cables seem like such a great deal for what you get though, your description on these budget cables has them competing with speakers that cost 3x as much and holding their ground (not to mention that I will still have a few bucks left over).  They have a forum over at AudioCircles, however I think they are on hold as they have been having some supplier problems ... I put in a couple of emails to them and they have been unresponsive ... I noticed that they offer a Quad Shotgun with the Quadraphonic 4x16awg cables, but I was wondering which of the 2 models of cables (the Nivanas or Quads are the better cables).
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maddog07
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Re: Suggestions 10' Speaker Cables
Reply #44 - 08/21/13 at 22:54:59
 
I would purport to you that the “break-in” phenomena occurs to some extent… Every time you turn your system on.  This goes for wire as well as components.  With components, we’re talking about reaching thermal stability for one thing.  Where, in the case of Decware amps anyway, they have been voiced at and with components and values chosen for their performance “at that temperature”.  My Torii takes 30-45 minutes every time I turn it on to sound “right”.  And it sounds better and more real the longer it’s been on up to a period of 2-3 hours, which after that point I have never sensed its sonics changing much more.

For wire… I suspect that you are more likely to “hear” or sense an immediate difference upon swapping out one set of IC’s or speaker wire for another – right after the swap.  That is the point in time where the “just hooked up” cable is the least “settled” and least dielectrically “formed”.  I suspect that there is a bit of stabilization that goes on every time signal flows thru a cable for the first time, and also when it has not had any signal applied to it for a while.  The longer it has had NO signal passing thru it, the more metamorphosis it goes thru.

This just raises more questions… we always hear/read that we should listen to a cable or component for a while to let it break-in, settle, etc.  Yet, lest we not forget that while this “breaking in” is going on over a period of time, our ears, brains and auditory sense is also “acclimating” to the sound as well.  So is the component really breaking-in, changing sonically or are we just getting “used to it”?  Or is it a combination of both?!!!  

Which gets me to one “learning” I’ve acquired over the years and I try to observe it when I audition something new and not let the excitement and anticipation overcome my sensibilities.  “If” the new component just installed into my system for trial/audition/comparison, etc. immediately draws my attention to some aspect of its sonic signature – there is probably something “wrong” with it.  i.e. there is something “unnatural” about its sound that has caused my brain to “react” and to “notice”.  Either something is bright, dull, too heavy, tizzy, tilted, out of balance, phasey, etc…unnatural sounding.  Something has caused me to “notice”.  If the item under consideration does not draw attention to itself in some fashion pretty quickly, then it is probably relatively neutral, accurate, etc.  
For items that meet this criteria, I then begin the “long term” task of playing all my reference music thru them to see if it all sounds as expected and to listen for “differences”.  If one does detect a “difference”, then we have to decide if that difference is; 1) an improvement or just a difference, and 2) does the difference make the system sound more “real” to us.  Since 99% of the music we listen to, we did not hear the original live performance where & when it was recorded, then this becomes a completely subjective process that is different for each of us.  Being one who was never satisfied with this limitation, I strive to listen to live performances as often as I can to keep my references “fresh”.  Also, to that end, I have a close friend and true lover of music, who plays in a local band.  Not only that, but he also sings in a choir.  And to make it even better, he is an amateur recordist as well.  So… I have heard many performances subsequently played back on my system, and I know what they sounded like live as best acoustic memory can serve.  My friend is also a bit of a purist too, and his recording technique typically only includes two mics positioned at where a normal seat in the audience would be, etc.  He records digitally, no multi-track mix-downs, individual close mic'ing or anything – direct to disc so-to-speak.  He is now recording at high bit & sample rates also.  Surprisingly, or not, his amateur recordings are some of the most “real” recordings I’ve ever heard.  When I want to get down to the brass tacks of assessing a components performance, I put on some of his recordings.  They do a better job of telling me if something is “right” than anything else I have ever been able to obtain.
Another source I have found to be quite revealing and useful, if you have the capability, is just to setup a mic config. in some room in your house and start recording – everything that is going on.  Pick up human conversation(one of the most telling sounds), background sounds, TV playing in the other room, footsteps, the sound of your HVAC fan coming on, going off, water running in the kitchen… common ambient sounds.  Play this back thru your system and look for things like unnaturally heavy or chesty male voices, all the little ambient sounds – are they there?  Can you sense the “space” they were in?  Can you tell what room, direction the sound came from in your recording?  Does it fool you and your dog and/or your cat into believing the sound is real?  Of course this introduces a whole nother set of “how good are the components” into the mix – the microphone, ADC or tape machine, etc.  But I have found that there are many modestly priced digital recorders available these days that do an unbelievably good job of capturing sound.
If a new component passes all these test, and it produces no “fatigue” over long listening sessions – it becomes the new reference for that part of the chain in my system.  And the longer it remains the reference, the more it proves it was the most accurate to start with in all likelihood.  
This type of system performance assessment will not work for those philes who strive to get their system to have a certain sonic flavor for everything they play thru it.  i.e. anyone who wants everything to sound “polite”, or laid back, or to jump out at them with boom & sizzle, or to have micro details conveyed as significantly as macro, etc.  This only works for those seeking “recreation” of the sonic event in their listening rooms…not merely a editorialized reproduction of it….  That’s my philosophy on the purpose of my music system…. YMMV..  
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva UMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Marsh P200b, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, I'm outta room..
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