Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/29/14 at 22:06:55


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Man Cave (Read 7327 times)
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 1185
Re: Man Cave
Reply #15 - 08/26/13 at 18:08:26
 
Added question:  for two channel listening, do you drop an absorber in front of that screen to take that giant reflective panel out of the middle of your sound stage? If not, try it, you might be surprised at how it removes a bunch of smearing.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #16 - 09/07/13 at 06:31:36
 
Unfortunately I donít live close or I might take you up on your much appreciated offer. My broadband traps when in a few at a time. I measured the room through the entire process and it is a thousand times better than the before. Now you have me thinking of diffusion again. You know, thatís not something I can hide from my wife like cables (grin)!
Back to top
 
 

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #17 - 09/07/13 at 06:44:49
 
Funny you mention that... I have a trap I keep just for that. I rest it on my center speaker and the screen. My wife hates it when I forget to take it down. If you look at typical loudspeaker dispersion patterns I would not expect the screen to cause issue, but you are right it does. I really thought that by treating the back wall I would need to worry about the front. It helped somewhat but it still sounds better laying one 4í x 2í panel across my screen. When I had my Klipchís, I was not able to hear much if any difference covering the screen. With my HDTís it makes quit a change. †I suspect the horns had a more narrow dispersion pattern. †
Back to top
 
 

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 1185
Re: Man Cave
Reply #18 - 09/07/13 at 15:00:29
 
Steve and I were talking about this last time I visited him. I've always had big screens (having been a HT installer for many years I was a 23 year old with hand-me-down rear projection screens since the mid '90s!) and always felt there was some smearing to the sound/image when there is a big smooth surface in front of you. I'm sure different speakers interact in the room differently - which accounts for your Klipsch. But when I was doing some semi-critical listening with Steve, I kept mentioning how the sound kept muddying up and I was hearing a reflection left and rear of me. Sure enough, he's like "damn, I forgot to pull the curtain on my screen"...as soon as he pulls that over, the image and detail got sharper. (granted, screen was behind us, but it's still a valid point)

This analogy means almost nothing to you since you're so heavily absorbed, but I look at audio like living in a room full of mirrors. If you put a candle at the front of the room and tried to concentrate on it's location (use your eyes (stereo) to figure out it's depth/location in the room), you'd be able to spot it, but it would be difficult because you have all these reflections of candles all over the place. Plus, because you have a mirror reflecting a reflection, you have that image on image on image thing going on. Now, add a *second* candle to that mess and you have image-image-image-candle-image-image-image-candle-image-image-image. That's the mess that your ears and amazing processing power of your brain have to crunch through to find the original source (candle/speaker).

Adding diffusers is like tinting all those mirrors. You still have a multitude of images giving you that illusion of space, but it's easy to spot the original candle now because it's bright and shiny compared to the reflections. Absorbers are like putting black sheets on your mirrors. The room closes down and you loose that illusion of spaciousness, but now your source pops.

It's why I have a hard time believing/trusting reviewers who have zero treatment in their critical listening rooms. It seems like they are working so hard to find the best system that is  messed up the least by their room (though they don't seem to realize that's what their doing) and when they find something truly fantastic, it's because it happens to work well in their room. IMHO - I'd rather have a heavily treated room to neutralize the room as an issue, so I can focus on what the gear is *really* doing.

Sorry, I'm rambling...and I'm preaching to the choir here - you're way ahead of the crowd since #1 your using absorbers, and #2 your taking measurements!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/07/13 at 15:03:26 by Lonely Raven »  
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
cervelorider
Verified Member
**




Posts: 6
Re: Man Cave
Reply #19 - 10/21/13 at 03:56:53
 
Gorgeous room!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #20 - 11/09/13 at 22:07:19
 
Thank you!
Back to top
 
 

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
nico
Senior Member
***




Posts: 88
Re: Man Cave
Reply #21 - 12/21/13 at 11:34:39
 
Wouldn't we all like to have such a dedicated room....sigh.

I admire you for not only having the space, but also to be determined enough to come this far.
Tweaking gear is what most people do; tweaking a room takes much more time and efford.
Congrats on the result.
Nico
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #22 - 12/21/13 at 20:36:43
 
Thanks so much Nico! I just noticed in my posted photo my Left speaker is not towed in as much as the right!! Normally I would have noticed that in my sleep.

I figured out early on being in my basement that room treatments were a must and that is a hard thing to do... I could have bought HR1's instead of my HDT's or now a Mystery amp! †ItĎs like having an awesome powerful engine. But if your transmission will not handle the power without blowing up or your tires wonít stick to the road, then you really canít use it to the full potential.

I had moved my sofa up an inch or two and everything completely changed. I kept thinking something was wrong with my system. Imaging seemed a tad better but I lost something in the top end. I found out that in my listening position my ears were partly hearing the rear of the room. Once I was out of the rear I was hearing zero reflections. Itís interesting how moving so little made so much difference. I sold off all my home theater equipment and am working on adding diffusion. The big T.V. is gone. I am still on the fence to use QRD, PRD, 1d or 2d at my mirror sidewall reflections. If I go with 1D QRD, I will use Decwares. I have done much experimenting and reading but still undecided how I will proceed. Once I save up needed funds and make some decisions I will post photos upon completions.

Thanks to all the kind comments!
Back to top
 
 

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 1185
Re: Man Cave
Reply #23 - 12/21/13 at 23:29:43
 

1D QRD is the way to go for side-walls and front wall between the speakers, as well as back wall if you can swing that many.

2D QRD, either omnifusor or skyline for the ceiling to make it seem taller.

Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #24 - 12/22/13 at 02:53:09
 
Thanks Lonely! My thoughts were being a 2d, I would have less chance of the large unwanted concentrated reflection coming back to the listing spot. I can only assume that a 2d will have less amplitude per direction vs. a single direction diffuser. Please let me know your thoughts. †

Back to top
 
 

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 1185
Re: Man Cave
Reply #25 - 12/22/13 at 03:48:39
 
Exactly, a 2D diffuses the sound in more directions, which causes a drop in perceived volume. You would think the more complex diffuser would be "better", but the truth is that it's just a different fix for a different problem.

You would use the 2D diffusers where you *need* better dispersion, like the ceiling, and maybe on the back wall to help develop a surround sound like ambiance.

1D are the workhorse and can be used just about anywhere. There is less loss of reflected volume, and more predictable patterns of reflection.

Roll through here, this is the ultimate in dedicated listing room.

http://www.soundscapes.nu/!gallery/design/index.htm

Even in this absolutely no holds barred listening room, notice that 1D diffusers were chosen over 2D.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/22/13 at 03:51:08 by Lonely Raven »  
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
beowulf
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 751
Re: Man Cave
Reply #26 - 12/22/13 at 07:32:34
 
Hi guys ... Maybe I missed this part of the conversation, but where can I find the definitions for 1D, 2D, etc. in regards to room diffusers?

Thanks!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RoyMercer
Senior Member
***




Posts: 83
Re: Man Cave
Reply #27 - 12/22/13 at 21:06:48
 
Thanks Lonely, I will go check it out after I shovel the drive way...

Acoustics First Model C: †2 Dimensional / 4 Octave Diffusor is what I had in mind for my mirror sidewall reflections. It's not too deep that it will work fairly close and it has a huge bandwidth.†However that was before Lonely offered his experience. I will probably end up with the units from Decware... performance / price ratio is very good compared to anything else I have looked at.

Beowulf:

1 dimensional diffusers scatter sound left/right, while 2 dimensional diffusers scatter left/right/up/down.


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue13/rives2.htm


1D Diffusers are probably the most commonly used diffusers in studios and critical listening rooms and offer very predictable results. These diffusers scatter energy in a semi-circular pattern horizontally. Some examples of this type of diffuser are the following:

RPG Incís QRD Diffusor (http://www.rpginc.com/products/qrd734/index.htm) This is the diffuser based most closely on Manfred Schroederís academic work on diffusers.

RealTraps Diffusor (http://www.realtraps.com/diffusor.htm) This diffuser combines the QRD (Quadratic Residue Diffusion) math from Schroederís work with low frequency absorption.

Primacoustic Razorblade Quadratic Diffuser (http://www.primacoustic.com/razorblade.htm) †The diffuser uses a sequence of depths that doesnít appear to be strictly a quadratic residue sequence, in that it is aperiodic and the width of the zero-depth reflectors isnít consistent. The diffuser does offer a tremendous amount of phase-complexity and probably works very well indeed.

2D Diffusers are most commonly referred to as Skyline diffusers after RPG Incís model with that name. They scatter acoustic energy in a hemispherical pattern, both horizontally and vertically. Here are some examples of 2D diffusers:

RPG Incís Skyline Diffuser (http://www.rpginc.com/products/skyline/index.htm) This diffuser is based on a primitive root number sequence instead of the more commonly used quadratic residue number sequence.

Art Diffusor Model W from Acoustics First (http://www.acousticsfirst.com/diffuser-art-diffusor-model-w.htm) This diffuser uses both the more linear 1-D architecture with various block heights of the Skyline diffuser in a unique way.

Auralex Acousticsí Wave Prism (http://www.auralex.com/sustain/waveprism.asp) The Wave Prism uses a grid of dividers to separate the blocks of different heights which, according to Schroeder, offers better diffusion properties.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/22/13 at 21:14:51 by RoyMercer »  

Velodyne SMS-1, DSPeaker Anti-mode 2.0, Decware Torii MK3, Dynaco MK3 Mono, Outlaw 7500, Modwright Oppo 95 & 105, Decware HDT's, Klipsch RC64 II, RS62 II's, QSC RMX 4050, 2 Danley Sound Labs DTS-10ís, P5 power plant, Powervar ABC3030, ABCE1440 & 30+GIK traps.
  IP Logged
beowulf
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 751
Re: Man Cave
Reply #28 - 12/24/13 at 04:29:38
 
Wow, thanks Roy!  Looks like I have some reading to do. Grin

Without reading the links yet ~ I guess my first question is - how do you know which types of diffusers you need with your room and/or a/v gear?  Are you using softwear such as REW etc. to do sweeps?

I'm getting ready to move after the 1st of the year and I know there's some pluses and minuses .. first there's enough room to put my speakers more out into the room and I believe it has the golden ratio or thereabouts ... but the minuses are that it's not a dedicated space, it's a Great Room (living/kitchen/dining combined) so there are the openess factors of it, etc., etc.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
nico
Senior Member
***




Posts: 88
Re: Man Cave
Reply #29 - 12/26/13 at 10:45:13
 
Here's my home-made 2D diffusor, made of the wooden blocks my sons used to play with when they were young.

It works really well, solving the problems of flutter-echo's we had in the sweet-spot.

Looks a lot nicer than most of the affordable diffusers available here in The Netherlands.... Wink

Beowulf; I started with finding out if I needed absorbtion or diffusion.
With two brooms holding up an old curtain we partially covered the wall behind the listening-area first; resulting in dead sound.
Next we tried a "luxaflex" designed for blinding windows [don't know what you guys call it over there] and that really made a improvement.
Starting with materials you find around the house , maybe moving some furniture around and a bit of imagination you can improve the sound in your living considerably.

My advice; don't start with buying stuff, experiment first.
Back to top
« Last Edit: 12/26/13 at 11:03:31 by nico »  

zon_in_mei_045.JPG
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print