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The MYSTERY AMP ! (Read 155840 times)
vyokyong
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #720 - 02/21/14 at 02:21:25
 
What is PRaT? Without them you've got nothing musically.

Some comment about PRaT from AudiogoN member Ghunter

Objectively speaking, PRaT is directly related to the speed of a system's response and is the continuously relative delay between the information being read from the source and the tones being reproduced from the driver. The design factors that will have perhaps the largest impact on this would be the quality of the power supply in the amplifiers and the speed of the materials used in the driver material.

There are lots of opinions about this out there, and if you google "flat earth audio" you will undoubtedly find a link to the flat earth forums where this has been debated into the ground.

Legend has it that the foot-tapping description was attributed to Linn, who encouraged their dealers to tap their feet when demoing Linn systems and not tap their foot with competitors equipment to demonstrate the rhythmical superiority.

Now, to add a bass player's perspective (adding to the drummer's) the PRaT of a system just means that large transient attacks of a bass are not softened by a slow amplifier and the punch of the instrument is properly presented to the listener. My current bass amp is small by most standards but even then a home hi-fi would have a considerable task to replicate the punch of a 400W dedicated amplifier and two 12" long voice coil drivers. Systems with PRaT do try, and some do it very well.

Other commend.

The key is largely tuning the power supply with the amplification circuitry. This is relatively easy with a simple SET amp but gets much harder with SS amps. I personally don't know a scientific method to attack this. I just play around with power supply topology/component values until things settle in with actual music, the o-scope and meters be damned at this point. One way to attack things is to have a regulator dedicated to each amplification stage. This I suspect allows the sinking of current from regulator to one stage of amplification as it is being modulated by the music signal not be seen as an error on the power supply line by another amplification stage. Naim does this on the CD player that costs as much as a car, the 555. Lamm also does this on their products.

This is why in my profile I say, “Power supply design is what separates the men from the boys”.

Another commend:

While I readily confess to using them from time to time, terms like PRaT and slap (or its cousin slam) are shorthand for a combination of attributes that can be more precisely described by identifying them separately. Terms like dynamics, speed, resolution, transparency, power, bass control and tonal balance are more precise and more widely understood ways of specifying an amplifier's performance. If you were to tell me that a particular amplifier has good dynamics, speed, resolution and bass control, I would expect that it would have good PRaT and slam because those attributes are the "building blocks" for PRaT and slam. OTOH, you may or may not like its overall sound depending on the tonal balance and it may not be appropriate for your speakers if it does not have enough power.

I think you are talking about slew rate, not bandwidth. Slew rate is the amps ability to accurately track a signal with a large rise in amplitude with a very short rise time. This is what gives an amps`ability to reproduce good dynamics, not what makes an amp fast. Desribing an amp as fast is technically wrong.

Slew rate is still a very important spec that is unfortunately not understood very well. Its the single spec that gives a quantifiable measure of how well amps can track transients in music. An amp with a poor slew rate but very low harmonic distortion will sound much worse than an amp with a high slew rate and say .1% harmonic distortion.

Timing can be upset by sources (especially jitter in cd and phase shift in cartridges), amplifiers (especially at the bandwidth extremes) but mostly in speakers. I suspect the superior timing performance of many panel loudspeakers is one of their big attractions. Timing particularly affects the capacity of a system to create a convincing illusion of soundstage from just two speakers. The term Stereo actually translates as 'solid' and the solidity of a stereo image depends on accurate timing from microphone to speaker. How many listeners have noticed that many systems reproduce cymbals in nearer than the drums of the same kit? How long are the drummer's arms? This is usually caused by crossover timing errors between midrange (or mid-bass) unit and tweeter, on top of their individual & inherent errors.

Conclusion

PRaT are the most basic building blocks of musical performance. In domestic audio they are essential for appreciation and enjoyment of music. If your home audio is purely for home cinema it is probably not important to you, but TNT-audio.com is a magazine dedicated to domestic reproduction of music.

Sheet music prioritises these elements for good reason. Without them you've got nothing musically.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

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« Last Edit: 02/21/14 at 08:18:43 by vyokyong »  

ZRNTD00Z.jpg

Accuphase CD/SACD DP77 player, DIY Duelund wire RCA IC, XLO Purple Rush power cord
Zen Mystery Amp. MIT Oracle RCA IC. Synergistic Research Tesla Reference power cable.
Avalon Avatar speakers. MIT Oracle speaker cable.
Hydra 8. ZSB. Kubala Sosna Emotion PC
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vyokyong
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #721 - 02/21/14 at 02:43:43
 
Transparency and Clarity is King! You will enjoy every nuance of music notes, micro dynamics!

Magnetic field from power cable is enemy to Transparency and Clarity. In order to prevent its magnetic field to interfere signal current in interconnect cables and speaker cables, one trick is to use thick fabric to wrap around power cable as in picture. You can try it and see the result before and after without any extra cost.

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Accuphase CD/SACD DP77 player, DIY Duelund wire RCA IC, XLO Purple Rush power cord
Zen Mystery Amp. MIT Oracle RCA IC. Synergistic Research Tesla Reference power cable.
Avalon Avatar speakers. MIT Oracle speaker cable.
Hydra 8. ZSB. Kubala Sosna Emotion PC
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vyokyong
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Posts: 102
Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #722 - 02/21/14 at 08:39:40
 
Pace, Rhythm, & Dynamics
By Martin Colloms • Posted: Nov 24, 1992

Martin Colloms (footnote 1) suggests that the traditional ways of assessing hi-fi component problems overlook the obvious: does the component dilute the recording's musical meaning?

For all its quantifiable technical faults, easily identified in the laboratory when compared with the measured near-perfection of CD, the vinyl LP disc possesses a powerful and effortlessly musical content, with an easy, fundamental rhythmic stability and solidity. Interestingly, this innate character seems to be quite robust, more so than digital. Subjectively rewarding results may be obtained from analog sources without much trouble. Many well-established but not necessarily high-priced components may be assembled to produce musically satisfying results. With analog, one can listen through the blemishes and be aware of a strong musical message, one in which the music's flow, pace, and tempo are well conveyed, and into which the listener is drawn.

By contrast, digital audio is a fragile medium. Sonic greatness remains elusive, digital replay often seeming to get bogged down at an earlier stage, one in which the listener's lack of involvement leads to a substitute activity. The mind remains busy, but is now cataloguing perceptual features and comparing them with previous experiences. This is an interesting abstraction, comparable in the realm of visual art with the analysis of the brush techniques of old masters. But, as Robert Harley points out in this month's "As We See It," an obsession with technical minutiae can blind one to an appreciation of the whole. That easy, rhythmic grace inherent in competent analog replay points to one of the greatest paradoxes of digital replay.

Digital's technical advantages at low frequencies include low group delay due to a highly extended bass response, in theory even continuing down to DC. Technical appearances can be misleading, however. From my experience of more than 250 digital products, coherent, expressive, naturally explosive dynamics and the ability to present good musical pace and a confident, upbeat rhythm are areas in which digital is surprisingly weak. If digital bass is agreed to be tighter-sounding, less colored and less "phasey," then how on Earth can analog still be in the running when it comes down to subjectively satisfying bass rhythm? Nevertheless, digital bass generally sounds laid-back and downbeat, even if it is highly neutral when viewed purely in technical terms.

A listener well-trained in the analysis of sound quality may understandably be fooled into thinking that good bass automatically implies good rhythm. It does not.

While good rhythm is a key aspect of both live and reproduced music-making, it is not easy to analyze. It's as if the act of focusing on the details of a performance blinds one to the parameter in question. The subjective awareness of rhythm is a continuous event, registered at the whole-body level and recognized in a state of conscious but relaxed awareness. Once you've learned that reproduced sound can impart that vital sense of music-making as an event, that the impression of an upbeat, involving drive can be reproduced again and again, you can't help but pursue this quality throughout your listening experience.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html
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« Last Edit: 02/21/14 at 08:54:01 by vyokyong »  

Accuphase CD/SACD DP77 player, DIY Duelund wire RCA IC, XLO Purple Rush power cord
Zen Mystery Amp. MIT Oracle RCA IC. Synergistic Research Tesla Reference power cable.
Avalon Avatar speakers. MIT Oracle speaker cable.
Hydra 8. ZSB. Kubala Sosna Emotion PC
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marky
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #723 - 02/21/14 at 10:49:27
 
This is all entertaining reading. You could become bewildered wondering if
what you`re listening to is p.r.a.t endowed....time taken away from just enjoying. You dont really want to have to sample endless combinations for comparison as a part time job. Some do, and enjoy it.
Which is what brings us here ....Steves ears Smiley  he designs and voices the amps. All you have to do is supply your front end, cables, speakers, and room treatment, all of which, I`m sure contribute more to p.r.a.t. than the amps. You either compliment the amps more, or less, or a lot more.

And of course why were here again. Paraphrasing Steve " The advancements in digital technology are for the first time rivaling analogue, so I decided to design a new amp for our users who are keeping apace with the new technology  " The ZMA
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Lonely Raven
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #724 - 02/21/14 at 14:31:35
 
Quote:
Paraphrasing Steve " The advancements in digital technology are for the first time rivaling analogue, so I decided to design a new amp for our users who are keeping apace with the new technology  " The ZMA


Which describes me exactly.


I hate to be the naysayer, but I don't see how vyokyong's books and towels do *anything* for magnetics. By nature, magnetism goes right through these materials.
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SteveC
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #725 - 02/21/14 at 17:41:42
 
yeah, non conductive materials have no effect on a magnetic field.  I think vyokyongs point is about separation of things, components, wires.  Field strength diminishes with distance (inverse square I think), "padding" things so they cannot be physically near each other can help.  That's how I read his advice.

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Lonely Raven
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #726 - 02/21/14 at 22:58:25
 
OK, that makes more sense.

I'm really missing the Mystery Amp - I'm looking forward to swinging by Decware and bringing it home on Tuesday night.

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« Last Edit: 02/21/14 at 22:59:21 by Lonely Raven »  
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Dave1210
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #727 - 02/22/14 at 05:28:44
 
I just spent my first two hours listening to the ZMA. It's late and I am listening at low volume.  Excellent clarity and musicality right out of the gate.  I don't think I am missing any of the low volume essence of the SuperZen.  And the bass is much more pronounced.  I would say the sound has more tone and fullness across the entire frequency range.  It's very engaging.  I can't wait to turn it up tomorrow.  
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« Last Edit: 02/22/14 at 12:30:50 by Dave1210 »  

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Lonely Raven
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #728 - 02/22/14 at 06:33:39
 

I didn't want to say anything at the time, but when I stopped by Decware on Tuesday, I saw a Pelican case with Dave W (I think it was W) on the lid staged for pickup.  :)
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Lon
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #729 - 02/22/14 at 13:37:46
 
Congrats Dave! I'm glad you are enjoying it from the start.

I should stop reading this thread. Even though I don't need one I find myself wanting a ZMA. Won't take one without treble cut circuit incorporated though.
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Palomino
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #730 - 02/22/14 at 13:41:38
 
Lon, with raven's amp on my full rangers I did feel the treble cut was needed.
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Lon
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #731 - 02/22/14 at 13:48:17
 
Thanks for mentioning that. I know I would need it as I have loved and used it on four Decware amps now. With tube-rolling and a much better room I haven't needed it running my modified C amp at my Dad's but I don't have as wonderful a room at my place.

The treble cut circuit has been the best upgrade on a Decware amp I've made, even more so than Beeswax caps, which is a big one. with the treble cut circuit I can listen to any recording satisfactorily.
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« Last Edit: 02/22/14 at 13:48:37 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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stone_of_tone
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #732 - 02/22/14 at 15:17:47
 
Sweet Dave1210.

Happy Saturday to you...with your new ZMA!  I have mine on right now...enjoying Clapton...Reptile with a good cup of Joe!
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Dave1210
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #733 - 02/22/14 at 19:16:22
 
Thanks guys!  It's been a long time waiting and I am glad to have it on my rack.  Attached are a few pictures, assuming I know how to attach multiple pictures…which I clearly don't…so here is one picture : )
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« Last Edit: 02/22/14 at 19:22:07 by Dave1210 »  

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Dave1210
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Re: The MYSTERY AMP !
Reply #734 - 02/22/14 at 20:48:14
 
Here is one picture of the room…

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