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A Little Experiment (cheap) (Read 1499 times)
Mark
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A Little Experiment (cheap)
04/04/13 at 18:25:14
 
I was curious what a little ambience would add to my listening space, so I'm going to try a little experiment...

...with these:





A few notes:

* An ambient acoustical signal should be rather neutral, even flat sounding.

* It should also be just at the threshold of audibility.

* The speaker should fire upward

* It should be unobtrusive

So, I'm going to place the wireless mic somewhere near my main speakers, and transmit to the little [mono] guitar amp at the back of my room...

I've tried stuff like this before, and it workerd pretty well... Actually, a bit better than pretty well...

Total cost: $36.47 (shipped)

I know, I know... It's crazy, but I'll report on the outcome later... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Pale Rider
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Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #1 - 04/04/13 at 23:59:45
 
One of the great things about my Ultra is its ability to mix signals. Every now and then, it's fun to mix the stereo signal to the rear ERRs. I find I don't like to listen that way often, but now and then, it is quite pleasant. I agree with the low level caveat, and while the ERRs don't fire upward, I think their dispersion lends itself well to the effect. Not sure though the wireless mic/guitar amp combo will be neutral/flat, though.

Look forward to hearing your report.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #2 - 04/05/13 at 00:36:09
 
Right... I don't really know what to expect here... But you don't need a very high quality signal to do this... Mostly mid-range... And at a moderate to low level...

The main speakers provide all the definition... I even suspect a single powered computer speaker would work... But the guitar practice amp has a 1/4" phone input, and also a tone control...

As far as creating the illusion of expanded space, all one needs is a little sound to fool the ears... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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marky
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Posts: 539
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #3 - 04/05/13 at 13:29:54
 
For home use I used to dangle a mike over the front of my combo and feed it to another practice amp. Having the fuller sound was always more involving.

Back in the 80`s I read about how the atmosphere on Chick Coreas live album could be unlocked by using `out of phase` rear speakers. So I wired up some rear speakers to use with my B&W DM7`s. It was ok, not convincing, and some time later my Naim Nait int had to go back to Naim for repair. God knows what loads the little amp was driving.
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« Last Edit: 04/05/13 at 13:34:38 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.BenzLP , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #4 - 04/05/13 at 17:15:21
 
Right... I think any number of things might work here... I could actually get an ambience decoder, or some other proprietary unit, but I've tinkered around with stuff like this for years, and I've found that an old radio, if you can get an input into it, works just as well, IMO...

I think one of the major things is to keep it inconspicuous, because the psychoacoustics issue comes into play...

I've hot-wired rear speakers, but I think mic-ing a space in front of the mains will work better... I mean, you're already getting some of the room acoustics into play at that point... And you're just putting a small amount of the midrange [mostly] into a rear corner of the room somewhere...

We'll see what we can see... It's certainly no big investment at this point... (m.)

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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #5 - 04/12/13 at 23:22:02
 
Perhaps someone with some technical knowledge can help me here:

The impedance of the receiver, that is, the unit that is to be plugged directly into the guitar practice amp, is nominal 600 ohms... The plug is an unbalanced 1/4" phone plug as shown above... 600 ohms, I would rate as medium impedance, mic-wise...

However, all guitar amp 1/4" phone plug inputs are usually of high impedance... They're made to take, well, the output of guitar pickups...

I'm left wondering what that might do to the fidelity, or even the gain level that I might get...

Since I'm not looking for ultra-high fildelity here, it might not be a problem... Also, I'm not looking for too much gain, as the whole thing needs a rather low level to work right...

Bottom line: Does anyone think that plugging the wireless mic receiver unit directly into the guitar amp might not work?...

My guess is that it will be adequate, but not great...

I read somewhere that a mid impedance source into a hi Z input shouldn't be a problem, but... ???... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #6 - 04/13/13 at 01:27:42
 
I think I just solved any possible impedance mismatching problems, here:

http://www.computercablestore.com//Dual_Impedance_Line_Match_PID7986.aspx

Very unusual adaptor / X-former: 600 ohm [unbalanced] 1/4" female phone jack in, 1/4" phone plug out @ 50 K ohm... This should give me a clean signal transfer into the guitar amp...

Comments still welcome... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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marky
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Posts: 539
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #7 - 04/13/13 at 12:01:51
 
Well Mark this wont help, but when it comes to plugging instruments into any amount of amps and fx`s, wah wahs, mics I wouldn`t know and dont want to know what impedances they are. I just plug all the 1/4in jacks in and fiddle around till the sound comes out. Some mics use the smaller jacks but they all fit into a 1/4in jack convertor, and v/versa. Everything seems compatible. And why wouldn`t it. What I envisage when you try your experiment is that you will be amplifying not only the sound from your speakers but also the ambience and reflected sound from around the mic. The more you amplify the mic the more `mush` will get heard.
So the closer the mic and the lower its ampflification the cleaner the sound.
It will be like a very fast echo, almost reverb. I sometimes use an echo box that is actually called a delay which can be set to almost instantaneous. That touch of delay gives the guitar a pleasing sound, like, fuller. So playing a Strat with a little delay gets it nearer to a Gibsons fatter sound.
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« Last Edit: 04/13/13 at 12:50:20 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.BenzLP , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #8 - 04/13/13 at 13:08:39
 
Marky: I'm glad you mentioned the delay box, because I was thinking that I would need at least some capability of delaying the signal to the guitar practice amp if the whole experiment is to create anywhere near believable results... I was thinking in the range of 30 ms or thereabouts, but it will really depend greatly on my listening space...

Most 'ambience' decoders do employ some sort of delay circuitry, that can be adjusted according to your space...

So, I'm thinking a guitar delay pedal would be the cheapest way to go, since this whole endeavor is just an experiment...

Question: Can you adjust the delay time with any reliability with a delay pedal?... Also, I'm assuming you can adjust it way down to almost instantaneous, since that is the word you used above...

How about this?:



I can get it for about $36.00 shipped... This would give me some time delay, and some other controls as well... I really think it might work well for my purpose...

I really don't want to sink too much into this project... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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marky
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Posts: 539
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #9 - 04/13/13 at 16:03:25
 
This is the one I use Mark. I`ve had it around 25yrs. Just looked on e-bay and they are around 400. Unbelievable. I would have thought 50 max.


But....what I was suggesting is that you will get a very fast echo anyway, and you dont really want it, unless you do want to make it sound like you`re sitting in a big venue with it`s delayed reberberations Smiley
ps there are a lot of Boss delay pedals on e-bay at reasonable prices.
They should all have very quick echoes. A check on the manufacturers website should have the specs if the ad doesn`t carry them.
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« Last Edit: 04/13/13 at 16:18:18 by marky »  

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.BenzLP , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #10 - 04/13/13 at 16:16:28
 
That looks like a pretty good unit... As I was saying, I hope a cheap delay will work... All I need is a slight delay, so my guess is that the other controls will be turned all the way down, and the 'Time' knob just a little way up...

Also, I'll be running all this in mono, of course...

It's too bad someone doesn't already make a proprietary set-up like this... I envision it as a stereo mic going into a stereo transmitter, then broadcasting into two wireless speakers that you can tuck away somewhere in the rear of your listening space...

It would have built-in, and totally adjustable delay...

And maybe some other adjustable parameters...

I'd bet it would work pretty well... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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marky
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Posts: 539
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #11 - 04/13/13 at 17:26:30
 
To be honest Mark a direct line out and then through a delay would be better. I`m still debating wheather the CSP2+`s head phone jack would be ok to use as a feed in to my cassette deck for record. If so then the jack could theoretically be used to drive a rear speaker and pass through an echo unit on the way. Micing speakers is in theory ok, but in practice you`ll have to be careful with feedback. Mics to close, or amping them to much......it`s a balancing act. But hey your at home what am I banging on about.  I remember setting speakers up in different rooms once and could have sworn I heard Jimi tuning up in the other room. Have fun.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, CSP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DSC i/c`s, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s. Roksan Radius/Nima/high def cabl & M.BenzLP , M/L aeon i`s, Townshend Isolda sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains sub
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Mark
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Posts: 190
Re: A Little Experiment (cheap)
Reply #12 - 04/13/13 at 17:55:40
 
Thanks... I think all I want to do here is cast a 'musical shadow' somewhere behind me... I'll let you know how it goes... (m.) ps: It's going to take about 20 days for all the stuff to get here, so...
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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