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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY" (Read 18276 times)
DBC
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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
02/08/13 at 20:35:10
 
Over the years I can't count the number of times the subject of  "How to add Weight & Body" to the music has been discussed on this Forum. I know because since purchasing my original Decware Zen Select over 12 years ago I have read all of these posts with interest in doing the same. In almost 35 years of listening to Rock and Blues I have used a variety of subwoofers to augment the low end.

My main interest is music and for years I've seen a lot of bands locally (couple times a month normally). Can't beat sitting 30 feet from the band while tapping your toes to that awesome bass line. Each pluck of the bass guitar distinctly audible and clean, thinking why can't I make it sound that great at home?

Until recently I've always blamed it on poor recording technique, poor mastering, poor room acoustics and a variety of other excuses. That is until I ordered the MBM-12 MK2  Mid Bass Module from HSU Research last spring: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12mk2.html

After lots of research I was still skeptical, kind of like 12 years ago when I ordered my Decware Zen Select: 2-watts, yea right, does that come with a can of snake oil and bag of pixie dust too ???  Long story short, I soon sold all my solid state gear and have listened to the little Zen all these years until replacing it a couple months ago with the Super Zen.

So against my better judgment and based on everything I thought I knew about audio and subwoofers, I hit the purchase button. Just like Decware, HSU has an no questions asked return policy so I'll have a little fun, maybe learn something and send it back right ???  

Well it's 8 months later and I'm still amazed at what the MBM-12 adds to the music presentation. Each bass note is clean and distinct. Drums really pop !!  Actually I have two and run them in stereo, one located next to each of my mains. One is great, it gives you about 85% of what two will do in a large listening room.

I have full range Klipsch RF-7 mains connected directly to my Super Zen (running full range signal). The MBM-12 is connected to the Super Zen via speaker level connection also operating in what HSU calls "Augmentation Mode". So the mains and MBM-12 are both reproducing the signal below 150 Hz down to around 50 Hz.

Now I know there are a Zillion technical reasons that can be cited as to why there is no way this can possibly work, or at least sound good. Even HSU considers using speaker level connections and operating in "Augmentation Mode" as their least desirable connection and set-up method. All I know is it's hard to dispute what I'm hearing, so I'm just going to enjoy the music !!

When I purchased the Super Zen things got even better. The Super just seems to have much better resolution across the board and especially on the low end compared to the 12 year old Select with no mods. Lots of Weight & Body for all day listening without having to crank it to the edge of clipping. And when you do crank it up, well it is just GREAT !!!  No more wishing I had just a couple more watts. For the most part I now listen at lower volume levels because as I turn that volume knob up I just reach that "Satisfaction Point" sooner.

The HSU MBM-12 (Mid Bass Module) has been a great $500.00 investment for me. I also have the HSU ULS-15 15" sealed subwoofer which is a great product also (the best of many subs I have owned). I have listened to music with the MBM-12 only and the ULS-15 only. If you told me I could only have one, then I would say hands down keep the Mid Bass Module.

Augmenting the mid bass region has that much of a positive impact on music. There is simply more going on in most music between 150 & 50 Hz then below 50 Hz. Obviously the ULS-15 tops it all off if your budget allows. If however you are on a tight budget or simply looking to add a substantial bit of "Weight, Body & Punch" on the lower end you owe it to yourself to audition the MBM-12.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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dla405j
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #1 - 02/08/13 at 21:12:38
 
interesting...I run taboo with vcap & hazen mod and old zen select with hazen mod..also use zen tube buffer plus Monarchy audio dip...one classic and other 24/96...I buy them used and find that they boost sound and increase base...with decware outboard dac and Lars audio equivalent I find that my sound is smoother and less digital (harsh).  It's a pretty cheap way to improve sound.I have a smaller listening room and listen mostly to jazz so these minor tweeks fit my listening environment well.

dla405j
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #2 - 02/08/13 at 23:25:30
 
Interesting! Thanks for sharing your observations.
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #3 - 02/09/13 at 16:10:41
 
Thanks DBC! I wrote a question to you over in the SUPERZEN AND Z-STAGE thread. You just answered all for me. Thanks again for your insight on this. I am going to try this module. I now have a room where I can stretch the legs of my Super Zen CKC to obtain more dynamics-not-just tone and texture that I have enjoyed over the years with the SE84CS and now CKC.  My Zu Union's in Sangria Red arrive next week!   -Stone
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« Last Edit: 02/09/13 at 16:12:08 by stone_of_tone »  

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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #4 - 02/09/13 at 17:58:11
 
Stone,

As you probably gathered from my original post I have a Pair of HSU ULS-15 subs. If I'm not mistaken ULS stands for "Ultra Linear Sealed". So these have no ports. Before my purchase I called HSU Research and Dr. Hsu answered the telephone himself on about the third ring. He told me the ULS-15 was their most accurate sub for music but that the VTF-15 was very close. VTF for "Variable Frequency Tuning" . You have the option to run sealed or vented with the VTF Sub series as you know.

At that time I was looking to replace my 13 year old 18" Velodyne sub. I purchased the pair of ULS-15's which is overkill in some respects. The main benefit of the pair is more uniform bass throughout the listening space.

When the ULS-15's arrived I wheeled the old Velodyne out and the ULS-15's in and powered everything up. That moment was similar to powering up my Super Zen for the first time. WOW, this is a real improvement right out of the box !!

I had the ULS-15's for a couple months before I ordered the pair of MBM-12 MK2 (Mid Bass Modules). I was so impressed with the ULS-15's I wanted to see what Dr. Hsu's mid bass module would do in a music system. Interestingly HSU does not really advertise the MBM as a music product. I get the impression they are pretty much in the digital multi-channel universe (like most). While talking to Dr. Hsu about my tube set-up I kind of got the feeling he was thinking "Why don't you just buy a good $400.00 multi-channel AV receiver?". It was a bit funny.

An interesting side note from this same conversation with Dr. Hsu. He stated that tube amps typically have somewhat poor low frequency response compared to Solid State. I didn't think much about that comment again until I powered up my new Super Zen and realized how much cleaner and more defined the low end was.

So when it comes to the Mid Bass Module I'm not really using it exactly as the nice folks at HSU envisioned. As you know from looking at the HSU site, the Mid Bass Module is basically the same design concept as their VTF (Variable Tuning Frequency) sub line. Difference being it is specifically optimized to reproduce the 150 to 50 Hz frequency range.

You can run the MBM in Sealed or Vented mode. I have listened extensively in both modes. Since getting the Super Zen I can say I prefer the Sealed mode for music. In the Vented mode drums have a bit more slap but low bass guitar notes on some recordings can sometimes get a little "Wooly". Just seems like I can play just about any material in the Sealed mode and it sounds good if not great.

So as I said in my original post, if I were forced to choose only one, I would opt for the Mid Bass Module over the ULS-15 sub as best audible improvement and bang for the buck. I listened to a couple Door's CD's this morning with MBM only and then Sub only to confirm my earlier impressions and statement in this regard.

HSU makes some fine products. Problem is if you try the MBM i think you will like it. Worse yet, the MBM will likely leave you thinking "What would it sound like with one of their subs?".

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #5 - 02/09/13 at 18:18:21
 
DBC, are you running two of the mid bass and one or two subs?

My imagination is tickled, I bet you have killer sound.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #6 - 02/09/13 at 19:35:46
 
Lon,

I have two ULS-15's and two MBM's. I know that is a little over the top. I have run the set-up using one ULS-15 and one MBM and there is not much more a sane person could ask for if they just had one of each.

In my case I am running these in stereo (left Sub & MBM left channel only, right Sub & MBM right channel only). I posted a couple pics in the Member's Picture Gallery. Sorry for the poor quality, just into music more than photography and interior decorating. Room is approx 15 feet wide by 21 feet long with an equally large adjacent dining and kitchen area.

Having twin subs and twin MBM's does a lot to produce even bass through the listening room and quite frankly the whole house. I realize this is not a practical set-up for most working folks with real lives to live.

You might think by looking at the system that I'm some type of Freakish Bass Head in need of serious help. Well I'm not into Bass simply for the sake of Bass. I like smooth distinct audible bass that is not in your face but rather contributes to the overall presentation. On the other hand Black Sabbath and Michael Jackson really do kick out the Bass on their recordings.

A good solid Bass foundation gives the impression the whole system is playing MUCH louder. I would describe the Bass as Effortless, and it does not get in the way of other instruments or vocals. Even at low volume the bass has a real physical presence. As a result I tend to listen at lower volume levels with a great deal of satisfaction.
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« Last Edit: 02/09/13 at 19:53:03 by DBC »  

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #7 - 02/09/13 at 19:51:36
 
Thanks for the info. I can imagine it sounds really rich and deep. I know you enjoy the sound very much, and that is what counts.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #8 - 02/10/13 at 02:52:52
 
I was just looking at the HSU ULS-15 sub, thinking of getting a single one, with the general idea that the larger sub I can get, the better off I'll be for full bass reproduction.  I wanted a sealed sub, but your statement that you preferred the MBM over the ULS if you had to choose one surprised me.

Can you expand on this?  Any idea why a smaller sub would add more weight than the larger one?  Is it related to your speakers frequency response perhaps?  Placement of the ULS vs the MBM?  Very curious to hear why you like the MBM better.  I do have to choose only one, so any insight would be great.  Thanks,

Doug
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #9 - 02/10/13 at 16:45:40
 
DougK,

You ask a great question. I have to say going in to this (experimentation with the MBM) my past experience and preconceived notions on what I thought I knew about subwoofers was actually an impediment. After all if you know the world is flat then you are unlikely to set sail for the horizon.

A little background. My Klipsch RF-7 mains are full range speakers. I've been to the local Klipsch dealer and when they crank them up with 200 Solid State Watts per channel they can kick out the bass. Problem is you have to play them loud and your ears start to bleed from the Solid State highs after about 5 minutes.

Come home crank the RF-7's with my Super Zen 2 Watts per channel and the mids and highs are to die for at normal listening levels. But where's all the Bass ??  I can hear it but it's a little faint for my liking.  Well lets crank it up some more and I start to drive the Super Zen into clipping.

No problem, I've got the HSU ULS-15 (15 inch sealed sub) tucked into the front right corner of my listening room. Turn that baby on and set the crossover at 90 Hz (max crossover setting on this sub). Yuck, it's boomy. Darn I've got a room induced peak at around 70 HZ. Turn the sub volume down from 50% to 20% and no more Boom, in fact pretty much no more nothing.

OK lets set the crossover at 50 Hz and the volume back to 50%. That sounds really good with Black Sabbath, Nickle Back and other music with lots of low bass (hey lets start spinning some RAPP) not really. Does not do much for The Rolling Stones though ??? OK Lets move the sub to the Front Left Corner. Darn, I've got a peak around 45 Hz there.

OK let's move the sub more to the center of the room along the front wall. Not too bad. I have the sub volume at 50% and crossover set at 90 Hz (max). I'm listening at a comfortable level, Super Zen sounds good and the music has a little meat on it's bones, I like it. Lets see if there is more of that to be had, tweak the sub volume up to 55%. What happened  ?? That does not sound natural. OK, sub volume back to 50%. I like what I'm hearing but wish I could get some more of that. Another point, now that the sub is in the center of the front wall I don't have the really low 20 Hz extension on movies ??

OK, fast forward to today. Having used the MBM (mid bass module) for months now I can appreciate how much music material lies between 50 and 150 Hz (150 Hz max crossover setting on the MBM). I don't think it was a mistake that Dr. Hsu designed and optimized to MBM to accurately reproduce material in this range. If you read some of Dr. Hsu's material he states below 50 Hz you need a big heavy driver and above 50 Hz a smaller lighter driver is optimal.

My Theory: You have a sub reproducing low frequency up to 100 Hz as an example (assuming no room induced peaks, good luck on that). As you increase the the sub volume at some point your brain says there is a disconnect between everything below 100 Hz which is going up in volume and everything above 100 Hz which is not going up in volume because the mains are producing that portion.

As you increase the volume on the MBM the frequency range that Dr Hsu felt was important (50 to 150 Hz) increases across the board as opposed to my example above using a single subwoofer and the mains.

I have to admit I was sure there would be a conflict to deal with given that my mains go down to 40 Hz. Certainly the MBM and Mains reproducing the same frequency range was going to be a problem. Well I run the MBM crossover at 150 Hz (max) and there is no issue. Basically just keep increasing the MBM volume until you brain says that's not right. Back the MBM volume off just a tad and enjoy.

Now will a system with a single MBM benefit by introducing a good sub, well yes. For reference I would say 80% of the performance bang comes from the MBM. Add a good subwoofer and you can increase performance (Weight & Body) another 20%. I think this goes right back to the fact that most music material does not have a lot going on below 50 Hz.

Recap:

Best room location for a box to reproduce frequencies below 50 Hz is often not the best location for a box to reproduce frequencies above 50 Hz.

Best driver to reproduce frequencies below 50 Hz is not the best driver choice to reproduce frequencies above 50 Hz.

Listening using a single MBM as opposed to a single Subwoofer there is a whole lot more going on in the bass region above 50 Hz then below on most music material. Therefore IMHO using a single MBM has a more profound impact on the overall "WEIGHT & BODY"  of the overall presentation.

Dr. Hsu knew something I didn't when he decided to build a box optimized to reproduce frequencies between 50 and 150 Hz.

The new Super Zen heightens the performance of the MBM compared to my 12 year old stock Zen Select. Point being if your source or amp are a tad muddy on the low end that will be reproduced by the MBM.

Final Thought: Prior to receiving the Super Zen I had a tendency to tinker with the MBM module volume. With better more modern recordings it seemed I could run the volume a tad higher without the MBM calling attention to itself. Older material could get a tad muddy so I would tweak the volume down a tad. Since introducing the Super Zen I have not touched the MBM volume. I think this is due to the Super's improved low end clarity and separation.

My apologies for the long winded response. If anyone does manage to get this far then I hope it was of some help.

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4krow
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #10 - 02/10/13 at 19:05:15
 
I have to say that there is a lot that I agree with about your experience with bass frequencies. All rooms lie in some fashion when it comes to bass. Placement is really the best way to achieve most of what can be done. I also use a Velodyne SMS-1 to help with the process.
Your point about different sized drivers used to reproduce low(below 50hz) and bass(50-150hz) sounds like a very good idea. It doesn't help my wanting to keep a system as simple as possible, but then things should be kept as simple as possible, but not simpler(Einstein said it right).
On a different note, I have always liked the folded bass horn for the power and purity. I built a K-horn sold by Speakerlab when I was in high school. Though it definitely wasn't a Klipsch, it gave me an idea what bass could be.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #11 - 02/10/13 at 20:02:25
 
4krow,

I agree with your comment regarding simplicity. Take my system for example; without the subs it is pretty basic which is always good. Source, pre, amp, mains.

The intent of my original post was to suggest that if someone has a simple system and would like to add a noticeable amount of quality "Weight & Body" to the overall presentation that a single HSU Mid Bass Module is a simple and effective option based on my experience.

I wanted to comment on placement also. The MBM is not all that sensitive to placement. With one unit you would want it somewhere along the front wall center or slightly off center depending on what your arrangement allows. Corners are not the best choice since at these frequencies you may start to sense that most of the bass is coming from one side of the sound stage.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #12 - 02/10/13 at 22:41:53
 
As long as the subject is subwoofers, I'd like to know people's opinion about something I was thinking of doing:

I wanted to augment the sound of my Tang Band full range back horn loaded speakers, and a mini sub would do just fine... The only thing is, no sub out on my Zen amp... I do, however, have a Zen CD player, and I was wondering if I could use the standard [op amp] outputs on the CDP to feed the sub... I mean, they are supposed to be live... ???...
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #13 - 02/11/13 at 16:30:21
 
I was reviewing Steve's paper on "Insights About Subwoofers" the other day.  http://www.decware.com/paper01.htm

"The common application of a sub woofer is far from high fidelity because of two things: The user turns up the volume to a level greater than his speakers, and turns up the crossover frequency to 90, 120, even 150 cycles. He does this because he is waiting to hear the sub work, and that is what it takes to get it to draw attention to itself. In this application, the response of the speakers are altered by overlapping them with a thick veil of bass."

I agree with with Steve's observations. If a sub is crossed over at say 80 Hz, as you increase the sub volume at some point the brain recognizes a disconnect between the volume of Sub frequencies below 80 Hz and Mains frequencies above 80 Hz.

On the other hand if one tries to overcome this problem by setting the crossover at say 150 Hz a second problem arises. Subwoofers by their very nature are designed to play Low & Loud and in my experience sound crappy when you attempt to cross them over at higher frequencies.

The HSU Mid Bass Module seems to solve both problems in my system. A unit optimized to reproduce frequencies between 50 and 150 Hz with accuracy and authority. No sense of "overlapping the main speakers with a thick veil of bass". The MBM simply adds to the music rather than drawing attention to itself.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #14 - 02/11/13 at 17:17:20
 
I would look at the bottom end rolloff on your speakers, and adjust the sub accordingly... Maybe a mild 'suck-out' between the two, some overlap... Yes, crossing over to the sub too high introduces too much mid bass, which causes all sorts of phasing problems... That's why some subs have variable phasing...

Having had a sub previously, I'd keep the X-over low... And not want to 'hear' the sub... Also, the level on the sub should be rather low...
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #15 - 02/11/13 at 17:59:40
 
DougK

You asked the following question earlier:

[b]"Can you expand on this?  Any idea why a smaller sub would add more weight than the larger one?"[/b]

First thing, the HSU Mid Bass Module is not a subwoofer in the traditional sense. So to judge it's effectiveness as I have described based on it's size alone would be a BIG mistake.

Traditional subwoofers are designed and optimized to go low and loud. Generally that means bigger, heavier drivers and bigger enclosures as your question suggests. The sealed ULS-15 does a wonderful job of going low with accuracy.

On the other hand the Mid Bass Module does a wonderful job of doing what it was designed to do. Reinforce the 50 to 150 Hz range with accuracy. If you read some of Dr Hsu's explanations on the MBM he selected a light weight 12" driver and designed the enclosure specifically for the MBM application.

So the traditional Subwoofer and the Mid Bass Module are really two different animals. I will try to explain it this way. If you are primarily into music and want to reinforce the 85% of the bass material that lies between 50 and 150 Hz on most recordings then I have found the MBM to be very effective. If you are only interested in reinforcing the last 15% of the bass material that is below 50 Hz on most recordings then a subwoofer would be a better choice.

Sure, I have both and and they sound great together. I realize however not everyone will have that luxury. I have listened to both and IMHO it's not even close. If I had to choose between the two it would be the MBM.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #16 - 02/11/13 at 19:40:59
 
Over the years I have seen several articles on how the human ear perceives lower frequencies similar to this one:  

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/earcrv.html

This quote is interesting:

"One of the implications of this aspect of human hearing is that you will perceive a progressive loss of bass frequencies as a given sound becomes softer and softer. For example if you are listening to a recording of an orchestra and you turn the volume down, you will find that the bass instruments are less and less prominent. This is the purpose of the so-called "loudness contours" on audio amplifiers; they allow you to boost the bass frequencies when you are listening at low sound levels to give you a more realistic balance of the high and low frequencies in the music."

If you go to the link and look at their graphs the frequencies between 50 and 150 Hz really take a hit (compared to higher frequencies) as volume is reduced. The Mid Bass Module reinforces that frequency range making listening at low to moderate volumes very satisfying.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #17 - 02/11/13 at 21:14:58
 
If I recall correctly, the effect described of 'volume intensity relative to level', it has been supported by the Fletcher-Munson curves from the 1950's. I'm sure it is in our genes for a reason, but I still envy other animals' hearing.
The sub that I used to own was a Velodyne UDL-15. I found that it was a great enhancement with the right speakers. The idea that a speaker cone was in constant 'check' in reference to the music signal seemed to be as good as it gets. But, as I stated, matched with the right speakers was important so that the two could be as seamless as possible. Driver distortion is unbelievably high in the lower regions of frequency, making less of a note and more of a thud as a rule.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #18 - 02/11/13 at 21:51:43
 
4krow,

I appreciate your input and agree with your statement regarding traditional subwoofers:

"But, as I stated, matched with the right speakers was important so that the two could be as seamless as possible. Driver distortion is unbelievably high in the lower regions of frequency, making less of a note and more of a thud as a rule."

Since the Mid Bass Module is not a Subwoofer it does not seem to present the same challenges integrating with the mains. And the light weight 12" driver really pumps out the notes and not the thud.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #19 - 02/11/13 at 22:01:57
 
Yes, and I agree with you also. It is a very good idea, using a less traditional sub that doesn't deal so much with unneeded frequencies. Correct bass reproduction, as hard as it can be to get right, is well worth it. Still, we have all visited those who have systems that they are so proud of because it can rattle windows....hmmmm to each his own I guess.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #20 - 02/11/13 at 22:31:19
 
"Still, we have all visited those who have systems that they are so proud of because it can rattle windows....hmmmm to each his own I guess."

LOL !!  Yea, we have all met that guy at one time or another.

My fasination with the HSU Mid Bass Module really centers around what it adds to the listening experience at low to medium volumes. This is where I listen 90% of the time and there are certainly no windows rattling.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #21 - 02/11/13 at 22:32:40
 
I think the big problem is phase coherence at the roll-off points... Some speaker manufacturers addressed this in the past: notably Beovox 'phase link' speakers...

They inserted an extra driver that lives in the suck out point between the bass and mid units... And it is phased especially to make a smoother transition...
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #22 - 02/11/13 at 23:41:02
 
Man, That's what I love about these issues. The different ideas that have been tried, some successfully. I never quit experimenting with sound. It still is important to me to be able to return to the original if I don't like what I hear.
Bass is so special because of our rooms and taste. And sometimes I wish I had several systems to listen to in order to get what I want at that moment.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #23 - 02/12/13 at 04:50:32
 
Quote:
Beovox 'phase link' speakers

"Beovox," now there's a name I haven't heard in a while in a serious audiophile discussion. Wink
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #24 - 02/12/13 at 12:10:32
 
Looking at the spec on my m/l`s they go down to 40Hz. Not sure what the double bass is capable of but not ever having tried subs I`m sure
I can hear well enough a long way down to the point where the air shift takes over and you get that `felt` pulse, even to the point where you think your ears may not take to kindly to low sonics.
Given that my Decware amp gear is renowned for bass reproduction this means that they pass on the large wattage shift of some bass extensions by using very generous component specs so they dont get `swamped`.
The band sound balance is a touchy subject if you`ve ever played live. Volume controls easily creep up if not kept an eye on by a third party aka recording engineers in studios or if a big band the control desk, PA, in live play.
Ideally your finished recorded sound should be `just so`.
Listening to G.Deads live double I cant help but ask the bass player to back off as it is very raw and transmits a lot of energy. Not comfortable but for `Dead heads` which I`m not. There are many similar recordings where bass `energy` is felt more than others.
Live, the whole band will be very loud and in my experience the bass is not usually prominent, but is more the texture or floor that the rest of the band live in.
Bad experiences, one or two : Humble Pie in S. Marriots home town Assenbly Hall. OMG the bass was dangerous. Windows were very loud, you could feel the blood draining as your chest was being thumped. It was total nausea and you really thought eardrums were at risk. Took some time to acclimatise.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #25 - 02/12/13 at 13:13:38
 
Thanks again DBC for your insight with the Hsu mid bass module. It is a more efficient paper cone & driver motor too (by design as you eluded too)....to keep up with my Union Driver.

Out in the room, just a few feet away from my Listening Chair....is where I will start for placement. Anyway, after some time with my new Zu Unions and then the mid bass module I will return with some observations & pics.   Party on Wayne - party on Garth.....-Stone of Tone
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« Last Edit: 02/12/13 at 13:24:00 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #26 - 02/12/13 at 16:17:17
 
marky,

Good Observation:

"Live, the whole band will be very loud and in my experience the bass is not usually prominent, but is more the texture or floor that the rest of the band live in."

Some of that depends on the band, music style, the acoustics of the live venue or recording if listening at home. I listen to a lot of Live Blues in local clubs and they tend to have the balance such that you can hear the individual bass notes as you watch the bass player pluck the strings.

I have been to more than a few live shows where the bass is more of a soup, not much bass note definition. On recordings some times the bass sounds more like a broth (thin and no defined notes).

The Mid Bass Module I've been using seems to have the ability to lift the individual bass notes out of the soup. Especially at low to moderate volumes where I do 90% of my listening.

For the last 4 days I have really been hooked on the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I've had these CD's for years but they were never my favorites. Now that I can hear all the individual bass guitar notes I have to say their bass player "Flea" really lays down a nice groove on all their songs.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #27 - 02/12/13 at 16:25:12
 
Stone,

Have your new Union's arrived already ??  If not when do you expect them ??
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #28 - 02/13/13 at 03:55:39
 
Great thread and great info. One of things I noticed with the Anedio D2 Dac was how much more satisfying the music was at low volume levels. Same output volts as the other dac. More more weight and body. Recently I changed my source feeding the Anedio with a Bryston BPD-1 music player. Even more improvement. I now listen at lower volume levels and still feel the same weight and body. Both these units offer extremely low distortion levels and noise floor. Is that what accounts for what I am hearing?
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #29 - 02/13/13 at 05:45:42
 
Union's did ship today and are scheduled for 2/18 delivery!
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« Last Edit: 02/13/13 at 05:46:17 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #30 - 02/17/13 at 15:49:20
 
Surfing around I found this Interactive Frequency Chart that graphically depicts how many musical instruments fall within the 50 to 150 Hz range of the HSU Mid Bass Module.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

If you place your cursor on each instrument shown on the bar chart it will display where that instrument falls on the Ear Sensitivity Chart to the right. I thought it was interesting how much cello, guitar and other instruments fall into the 50 to 150 Hz range where the ear is less sensitive, especially at normal or lower listening levels.

The other night I watched the Nirvana MTV Unplugged DVD at a moderate listening level. It was the first time I had clearly heard the young lady playing the cello. It was great and really added to the overall presentation.

My old Zen Select just never had the low end resolution as my new CKC does. Without the MBM on the cello is barely audible. With the MBM on it is clearly audible and distinct from the other instruments.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #31 - 02/17/13 at 17:54:00
 
I find that to be a really good point.  Low volume leaves out some information.    
    On another related note, if I remember correctly, harmonics go both ways. So if there are harmonics from say a cello that reach beyond it's scale, then the obverse is true. And harmonics are weaker signal than the original.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #32 - 02/20/13 at 15:16:10
 
DBC,

How do you have the mid-bass units hooked up?  Line level? Speaker level? Do you have to bridge two channels together on each unit when using two?
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #33 - 02/20/13 at 17:18:33
 
Hi Lon,

Been meaning to post but been too busy listening or working. I've actually been getting up an hour early each morning just so I can listen for a bit. The Super Zen and Mid Bass Module combination have provided an audible window into what is really happening in the lower frequencies. This has allowed me to tweak the system some and actually hear the improvements.

Last week I changed to a different equipment rack I had on hand in an attempt to improve vibration control. In the process I found that my two sets of Decware 1/2 meter interconnects I had been using were a tad tight so I went to a couple 1 meter pair of pure silver interconnects I have had for a long time.

It was interesting, when I powered back up and started listening my first impression was the low end was just a tad thinner. After listening for a while it was apparent that the low end was not thinner but more accurate with more clarity. Kick drum and Bass Guitar notes for instance seemed to have more space between them. Less tendency to bleed together.

Now to your question. Per Steve Deckert's advice I use the speaker level connections so that the MBM is reproducing as close as it can the signature of the Super Zen amp. I'm actually using common Cat-5 computer network cable purchased from Lowe's. I know, does not sound very Hi-Tek but it sounds good. The cable has four twisted pair, each individual conductor is solid copper (not stranded). I always use bare wire speaker level connections at the amp, mains, and MBM. The solid copper conductors hold up better than the very fine stranded type.

I twisted two of the pair together for the POSITIVE and the other two pair for the NEGATIVE.  So basically I have one Cat-5 cable for the left channel and one Cat-5 cable for the right channel. I have a pair of MBM's so I run them in Stereo, left channel only to left MBM, right channel only to right MBM.

I have experimented with just one MBM where I run both speaker level channels into a single MBM and the single unit performs very well in my room. The MBM has speaker level input connectors for both left and right channels. It did seem when I switched back to dual MBM's (Stereo) that low end clarity was improved a bit but it was not a night and day difference. I have implemented a few other small system tweaks since then that might account for the difference at that time ??

I did have a small ground loop issue. I run dual MBM's and ULS-15 subs in stereo mode. So left channel for instance I run speaker level connection to the left sub and daisy chain to the left MBM. Seems the MBM's would interact with the sub it was mated to. I simply ran a Radio Shack test lead with alligator clips on each end from one of the steel toggle switches on the MBM to one of the toggle switches on the ULS-15 sub to give them a common ground.

I talked to Dr. Hsu about the ground loop. Basically they expect anyone not living in a cave these days will use the line level connection. I think they expect the ground on the line level interconnect to tie all the grounds back to the amp ??

After I got my Super Zen I could just barely hear a very low level hum with the MBM's turned ON. I had to be right up next to the mains to hear this. Not audible at the listening position or with the MBM's turned OFF. I tied the the ground jumpers installed between each MBM and sub back to the case of my surge protection device where everything is plugged into. Bam, everything was dead quiet and it made a noticeable improvement in low frequency playback. Again just seemed to be a little more separation and space between instruments on the low end.

It seems if you have any type of low level distortion from your source, pre or amp the MBM is going to make that audible. In my case that has been a good thing since I have been able to identify (hear) and address these things.

The biggest advantage of the MBM is that you achieve big, full, spacious, satisfying sound at low to moderate volumes. I've been trying for 20 years to achieve this type of sound in a listening room with subwoofers and have had limited luck at best. The MBM is not a subwoofer.

I've come to appreciate that subwoofers are more of a Sledge Hammer. They are designed to reproduce frequencies that you feel more than you hear. The MBM is more of Hammer, much more nimble, more subtle.




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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #34 - 02/20/13 at 17:48:17
 
Link to a short MBM review from a professional, You have to scroll down quite a ways to find it.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue34/awards2.htm
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #35 - 02/20/13 at 18:04:05
 
Thanks for that info! I think if I were to use these I'd use the line level inputs from the CSP2+ . . . I will even have one of those with an extra stereo out put which would work for two or one. I like the signature of the CSP2+ so much that thanks to Bill selling one here I bought another to use with my SACD player which doesn't sound quite as good just straight into the Torii Mk III. For me the ideal preamp is a CSP2+ with three or four inputs. . . .

Anyway, your experience is really informative and I have no doubt that you are enjoying excellent sound. I'm moving to a townhome in OHio soon and will have a few neighbors; I've been living in a house with some space between neighbors for twenty plus years. I may need to listen at lower volumes, and your experience shows these HSU units can be a big benefit.
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« Last Edit: 02/20/13 at 18:36:55 by Lon »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #36 - 02/20/13 at 19:59:32
 
Lon,

I've been following this forum for over 12 years now (since I purchased my original Zen Select). As you know I don't post much, I come here primarily to see what I can learn from folks like you. Thanks to everyone who frequents here and shares.

There are not many Mid Bass Module online user reviews to be found. The few I have managed to find have all been very positive. I know I was slow to try one myself because of all the difficulty I have experienced over the years trying to integrate a subwoofer into my music system.

Best advice I can give when it comes to the HSU Mid Bass Module:

1) Just forget everything you know or think you know about subwoofers.

2) The Mid Bass Module is not a subwoofer therefore refer to rule #1.

I hope you have a chance to try one some time. My guess is it would sound great on your CSP+ line level outputs. I have an older CSP and do not have that option.

I wish Steve would make the CSP+ available in the same black metal chassis as the Super Zen, I would probably upgrade that also. Call me crazy but I just like the Old School 50's style of the metal chassis.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #37 - 02/20/13 at 20:14:20
 
Another thought: I really like the simplicity of the HSU products. None of the "Digital Signal Processing", "Servo Control", "Parametric Equalization" or any of that other CRAP that I have tried with only limited success at best.

Who would have Thunk It, simple amp, driver and enclosure that does exactly what they say it will do.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #38 - 02/20/13 at 20:15:01
 
Well, I've never liked systems I've heard with subwoofers, admiittedly they were dvd based not music, but I just never bothered to learn about them in two channel use although there were years when I could have used them and would have really enjoyed them I bet.

These modules attract me because a) they're NOT subwoofers and b) they address a frequency band that really can be anemic in some rooms especially at low to medium volume and d) YOUR information and assessment of them in a Decware system and how well you've explained them and described the system as a whole.

I trust YOU and your ears more than many online reviewers I might find. They seem to be a really interesting and innovative product, which as you know Decware people know how to identify and enjoy. Smiley

As for the CSP2. . . My CSP2 now in use in my bedroom system I asked Steve to build in the black chassis to match my then in use SE34 Monoblocks in the same Decwware chassis. It's a 2 and not a 2+ so no mono output or other outputs besides the main stereo one, and I had him make it without the headphone jack because I just don't do headphones--Steve said it would sound a bit better without the jack. So I know that it's POSSIBLE to get a 2 in that chassis. Now a 2+ . . . . probably would be more difficult, but you know Steve, the more difficult just takes an epiphany. Wink

Anyway, the HSU modules are very intriguing and I appreciate you bringing this exposure to them. I may just have to try them out myself in the future.
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« Last Edit: 02/20/13 at 20:20:08 by Lon »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #39 - 02/20/13 at 21:08:25
 
Pale Rider,

Thanks for turning me on to Paul McGowan's daily discussions over at PS Audio. I thought this kind of fit into the topic being discussed on this thread and should be shared:

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/loudness-button/9651/

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #40 - 02/28/13 at 16:41:41
 
Just as my Zen Select and Klipsch RF-7s were a lens into the mid and upper frequencies 12 years ago, The Super Zen with HSU Mid Bass Modules have been an equally impressive lens into the lower frequencies. The Zen Select just sounds muddy in the low end by comparison.

With the new combination I have been able to hear step by step improvements as I solve minor grounding issues, address vibration and experiment with cables. I have to say I just did not think this type of bass clarity was possible in a 15'x21' listening space.

All those Hendrix, Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, etc. CD's that always sounded a bit thin on the bottom end have new life. It's amazing how much subtle bass guitar is on all this material. With the accuracy & clarity of the Super Zen the MBM's have the power and speed to reproduce drums and bass guitar so that they are distinct and separate (no mud, no boom).

Last night I listened to the same Doors CD 3 times back to back. Just seems to have so much more pace, rhythm and body ???? I'm at a point where I can just set the volume at a moderate level and listen all day long. Don't feel like I have to tweak amp volume, MBM volume or anything on different songs. It's great when an upgrade like this comes along and suddenly your entire CD collection is a completely new experience.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #41 - 03/15/13 at 18:15:52
 
Well put DBC, like you, I have been part of this Foum for 12 years with the purchase of my Zen Select SE84CS in May of 2001. I don't post that much either and I learn things from Poster's like Lon, whom I very much appreciate on this Forum.

Now, I'm learing from you. I am ordering a MBM soon as I finish this post! Furthermore, I have a pair of Klipsch RF 52 II coming on Monday from Crutchfield. $448.98 delivered....can't complain. I have bought them for my bedroom system. However, after a long breakin...I think they will make it in for an audition in the Listening Room System.

Anyway, back to the MBM....RF 52's come Monday and the MBM by the end of next week and I'll return with some early thoughts.

I will use the MBM-12 MK2 in my Listening Room System first...and then out with the Polk 1.2 bohemoths...then with the Bedroom System....burned in RF 52 II's down the road.

I will be purchasing just one (1) MBM...I do realize you have two. I will run 14 gauge wire to them from Super Zen CKC Speaker connections to Speaker connections of MBM....placing the MBM near me/Listening Chair.




Listening Room System (12 x 14 room):

Ipad2 with Apple LossLess/CD Error correction>Cambridge Audio iD100 Docking Station >Illuminati D-60/BNC>Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro32>Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference i2s>Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 w/remote wand>Kimber Select 1030>Decware SuperZen CKC Amp>Kimber Select 3033> Polk LS 90....Room Acoustically treated/Dedicated Room & Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer // Herbie's Halo's on all Tubes & 2.5lb Mapleshade Brass weight on top of CKC Transformer // XLO Pro Power Cord to SuperZen




2 Channel Home Theater (w/Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers):
(DVD, Blu-ray disc, CD, Vinyl, HDTV & Sirius Sat Radio via Dish Network)

Panasonic Blu-ray>Kimber Hero IC>Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp>Kimber Timbre IC>Emotiva XPA-2/(300 watts per CH into 8 ohms)>Kimber 8TC Speaker Cable>Polk SDA SRS 1.2/(use SDA always)>Kimber PK10 Palladian Power Cord to Emotiva XPA-2

Dish Network/HD DVR with Kimber KCAG IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....
Sharp 46' Aquos Quattron HDTV/extra thread of Yellow (2nd only to the Pioneer Kuro)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Red Plinth) to Pro-Ject Phono Box II with Audio Quest Diamondback IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....

Velodyne Subwoofer wired with Kimber 8TC out of Emotiva XPA-2
Soon to be replaced by: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html .....(fall of 2013 purchase)




Bedroom System:
Pioneer DV-563A...Illuminati D-60...Cambridge Audio DacMagic...Kimber Silver Streak...Decware SE84CS (stock)...Zen Styx w/Silver plugs...Klipsch RF 52 II








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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 18:49:58 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #42 - 03/15/13 at 18:30:52
 
awesome news Stone! I'm looking forward to your impressions.
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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 20:28:39 by Lon »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #43 - 03/15/13 at 19:08:53
 
Stone, I'm pretty sure you will love those Klipsch.  I gave my brother my old (1 yr. ) pair of rb81's to help out in his system.  I loved them...great bang for the buck and Crutchfield is a great co. to buy from.

JD
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #44 - 03/15/13 at 19:38:42
 
JD, yes, I do look forward to getting the 52's.

It's done....I ordered the MBM....should have by next Thursday or Friday.  Lon, I will post some immediate impressions next weekend.
-Stone

....you all have a great Music Weekend! I'm off to a Fish Fry and some Ice Cold Summit EPA>.......!
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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 19:39:37 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #45 - 03/15/13 at 22:06:56
 
....have put  concrete slabs between speakers and floorboards,
yes,...more bass firmness....and a little more subtle detail...
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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 22:10:47 by marky »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #46 - 03/17/13 at 11:11:10
 
Stone,

I think you will find a single MBM to be effective. I have experimented with a single MBM in my room and it does a very nice job.

I have never experimented with the MBM placed close to the listening position as HSU suggests. I can see this being effective for Home Theater but not so sure about Music ?? Two potential issues; First being localization (hearing sound coming from the MBM), and Second the potential for phasing issues between the mains and MBM ??

I found after months of experimentation that the MBM sounds best in my system with the MBM crossover set at the max 150 hz setting. The MBM is actually playing over (augmenting) my RF-7 mains that go down to 50 hz. This being the case I would think the best MBM location for music would be somewhere between the mains to avoid potential phasing issues (holes in the mid-bass region) ??

I look forward to your findings since I have not experimented with near field placement.

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #47 - 03/18/13 at 04:49:01
 
Thanks DBC, phasing and localization would be an issue with the MBM close to me. I will start at 150 hz as you suggested, while working on placement.

It is going to be fun using the MBM in 3 different Systems, somewhere between the mains and trying nearfield positioning and variations of... .
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« Last Edit: 03/18/13 at 04:58:10 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #48 - 03/19/13 at 16:23:39
 
...Out for delivery on Friday 3/22

A lot of good info between 90 & 150hz...should be interesting.  

Just a reminder this is NOT a Subwoofer (for anyone skiming the thread):
"The MBM-12 MK2 woofer is optimized for mid to upper bass reproduction - a very light cone, low inductance voice coil, and a strong magnet yields extremely quick response with high efficiency. It demonstrates excellent micro-dynamics and an extremely wide dynamic range that no single subwoofer can provide".

marky: good point since it is down firing....I will throw a piece of plywood under it after hearing it first off the carpet.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/13 at 16:32:21 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #49 - 03/19/13 at 19:44:35
 
might be a bonus Stone, I was just getting my front firers off the floorboards, nothing to do with subs...then I thought, a few slabs on top of a sub might...  :)
The MBM sounds interesting. When you dont use subs you think you have weight and body enough. Detail of mid lows and up from a unit (not sub) well you know, it`s allways interesting to find out what lies hidden and can be brought out without comprimise. Looking forward hearing of your trials, following DBC`s good low down on them.
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« Last Edit: 03/19/13 at 19:47:27 by marky »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #50 - 03/19/13 at 22:53:00
 
marky, good point regarding the MBM being down firing on carpet. I guess it depends on the carpet and padding materials as far as what frequency range and how much acoustic energy is absorbed ??  

I have hardwood flooring in my listening room and can tell you a lot of energy gets transferred to the floor with the MBM volume set at about 55%. My guess is that if you loose some energy on carpet that you can compensate by simply increasing the MBM volume a tad ??  

Stone; earlier in this thread I covered MBM grounding. The MBM has a 2 prong power cord (no third ground prong) so it is not really grounded. I think HSU does this to avoid ground loop issues that can crop up from plugging equipment into multiple home power outlets that have less than ideal common grounding.

Early on I discussed a hum that I had with Dr. Hsu and he explained they expected virtually everyone to use the line level input connections into the MBM. I gathered from our conversation that HSU relies on the line level interconnect ground lead back to the power amp to serve as the MBM ground back to the power amp ground (common ground).

Since I have my MBM's connected via speaker level connection there is no ground to the power outlet (two prong power cord) or the amp other than the speaker wires back toe the power amp. This created a slight hum at the main speakers. I eliminated the hum by connecting a jumper wire with alligator clips on each end from one of the MBM toggle switches to the case on the surge protector where my amp and other equipment are connected and grounded.

The ground hum I encountered could only be heard at close range and then it was faint (with cd player on pause). But when I finally grounded the MBM to the surge protector it really cleaned things up further during music playback.

The ground loop was laying down 60 Hz noise that the MBM, mains or both were reproducing (amplifying) during music playback. It was similar to a 60 Hz room induced peak, could only turn Up the MBM volume so much before the peak started to make things a bit boomy. Grounded the MBM plate amp to the surge protector everything else was connected to and I was able to increase the MBM volume further with no more tendency to get boomy.

You can get a package of four 3 foot jumpers at Radio Shack for about 5 bucks.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #51 - 03/23/13 at 14:35:38
 
DBC, thanks, I do have a low level faint hum at close range and I will get some Alligator Clips from R-Shack. (Using Spkr level conn too).

I love what I'm hearing from the MBM. The unit on carpet has no issues. I have it set at 150 hz and in sealed mode just a line under half volume for my room. I have it 5 feet out from the right corner wall-along the wall far enough away from me not to cause localization.  

This is not a Subwoofer for sure! The MBM overlays so well in this hertz range. It is tuned to be articulate (fast) and subjectively dances along in tune with those upper mid bass lines. It thus, helps present an even larger soundstage with that little more weight I was craving (and at low to medium volumes)!

HSU markets the MBM for HT. The MBM needs to be sold to 2 channel music lovers with Tube Amps! Other than figuring out your placement....it does not need a long break in (you know when you hook this thing up/it has the Mojo IMHO)...even though it should benefit from that over time too.

Just a quick word on fit and finish. I ordered the Rosenut. The unit has bull nose corners like the sheet rock in my house....absolutely beautiful. The Bash Amp is recessed/routered in....very nice. The cone is a paper pulp triple surround bellow....like a Pro Eminence Driver of sorts. It exudes....I'm fast bitch!  hehe...not a Subwoofer/thick excursion.

Thanks DBC for bringing your experience with this product to the Forum.
The augmentation I'm geting with my CKC with MBM; for 625 bucks delivered is a steal. -Stone
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« Last Edit: 03/23/13 at 14:40:37 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #52 - 03/23/13 at 15:40:08
 
Stone,

My reaction upon first listen to the MBM in my system was right on with yours. You can probably now appreciate that my words can in no way do this device justice, you simply have to hear one in your system. I'm glad you had the balls to go out on a limb on this and give one a try.

You are right, HSU is missing the whole 2-Channel music market. And yes for the price The MBM is an absolute steal !!  

The good news is that as you experiment it will only get better. The MBM has so much low end resolution it will immediately tell you when you are making improvements with placement, cables, grounding, vibration control, etc. Each time you make an improvement you will be able to bump up the MBM volume just a tad for more expansive and cleaner bass.

All your CD's are going to sound much improved.

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #53 - 03/23/13 at 15:56:31
 
Awesome Stone, thanks for sharing your initial impressions.

These are definitely on my radar should I need them in my upcoming new "home." Time will tell.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #54 - 03/26/13 at 15:34:49
 
We had a winter storm here in the Midwest this weekend so I had a good bit of time for music listening. Got on a Santana Kick and was just mesmerized at how great the bass lines are in his music with the Mid Bass Module. HSU has been manufacturing the MBM for years and I just can't figure out why it is such a "Best Kept Secret" in music circles ???

Ok, I do have to say that HSU Marketing is a bit of a turn-off to 2-channel music listeners following in the "Less Is More" tradition. HSU  talks primarily about HT applications, crossovers and near field placement. Believe me it's not that complicated for quality 2-channel listening. Just place the MBM somewhere between the mains, make speaker level connections, set the MBM crossover to 150 Hz (max position) and gradually increase the volume until you get the correct amount of magic.

Anyway as I listened to Santana I surfed with my tablet for any mention of the Mid Bass Module on the many audio related sites out there. Over the past 6 or more years every once in a while someone will ask "Anyone know anything about the HSU Mid Bass Module, they sound interesting?".  Overwhelming the responses are from experienced subwoofer owners with a multitude of seemingly reasonable explanations as to why the MBM is a bad idea and all the technical reasons why they just will not work. Interestingly however, everyone kind enough to offer their hard and fast subwoofer Do's and Don'ts has never actually heard the HSU Mid Bass Module ???? So generally the person asking the question fades into obscurity as the well meaning experts pile on.

While surfing I found this Mid Bass Module review that some may find interesting: See link to full review.

Professional Review:  http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue34/hsu.htm

Quote:
"Forget about bass response in your current primaries for a bit. Put them where they work the best for mid-band and highs, imaging, depth of field, and such. THEN, slowly bring up the Hsu mid-bass module(s) reinforcement volume until you find the sound growing fleshy and substantial, and you can clearly hear bass lines (which now are actually resolved into musical events, instead of an indistinct "tock-tock").

Because the units are light paper, they are very fast and you get virtually no hang or "tubby" sound; Crisp, clean, articulate and tonally correct.

On one of my most-favorite songs, "Sultans of Swing," by Dire Straits, suddenly the bass line was as clear and intricate as Mark's guitar licks. Wowzers!

In other words, you get what you wanted from "audiophile mid-bass," but you also get music with substance."

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #55 - 03/26/13 at 16:45:36
 
DBC,

Thanks for keeping us up with your Mid-bass explorations. I am enjoying it.

Will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #56 - 03/26/13 at 17:58:43
 
Will,

Guess I'm a sub nerd ??  I go to live shows locally a couple times a month (Blues, Rock, Pop) and use those listening experiences as a guide to what I would hope to achieve in my listening room. Over 20 years I have tried many subs, multiple subs, parametric equalizers, digital signal processing, room treatments, all with limited success at best.

So I thought I knew a lot about the subject and was not very optimistic when I purchased the HSU Mid Bass Module. I ordered it anyway thinking I might learn something and gain some insight to carry me forward in my quest. Well what I learned was I didn't know squat. It was as if I thought the Bass world was flat and suddenly I was having to wrap my brain around the fact that the world was actually round.

Stone_Of_Tone recently purchased a Mid Bass Module and his initial report was very positive. He has only had it a few days but I look forward to hearing more from him as he applies it in a different system and different room.

I used to think that a sub volume remote was a must in a music system. The ability to nudge the sub volume up or down depending on the music material. Sometimes even between songs on the same disk.

I have not touched the volume control on the MBM in over a month while playing a wide variety of music. It just makes everything sound right as rain. Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #57 - 03/26/13 at 22:09:30
 
DBC, do you think there is a better type speaker to use with these than others? i.e. Bookshelves vs Floorstanders, freq. ranges, etc.?
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #58 - 03/26/13 at 22:24:16
 
"Ok, I do have to say that HSU Marketing is a bit of a turn-off to 2-channel music listeners following in the "Less Is More" tradition. HSU  talks primarily about HT applications, crossovers and near field placement. Believe me it's not that complicated for quality 2-channel listening. Just place the MBM somewhere between the mains, make speaker level connections, set the MBM crossover to 150 Hz (max position) and gradually increase the volume until you get the correct amount of magic".

Five days in for me and you said it best DBC (above).....the MBM augmentation is real and musical for me too.

Many people can't wrap their brains around a 2 watt Amp driving Speakers either....their loss to ignorance as well.

People question me driving my Polk LS-90's with 2 watts per channel (or less actually per channel because of loss in the Xover)....but sitting 5 feet away and listening at 78db SPL average....the tone and texture I'm getting is amazing with a Decware SE84CS & Super Zen CKC. NOW, with the MBM....this System is complete.

However, sure more efficient Speaker's would let me go Louder....so I just nogotiated a price on a pair of Klipsch RF-7 II B stock in Black from Mike at Acoustic Sound Design. DBC, you have been happy with yours and I like what I heard from a little pair of RF 52 II's.....so I have the RF-7 II's coming!  

Of course, I will be getting the MBM out to the HT & Bedroom Systems and report back. I will also get the RF-7 II's into the Listening Room (after burnin') to go head to head with my Polk LS-90's at 78db avg. SPL for Tone & Timbre comparisons.

Cheers


Listening Room System (12 x 14 room):

Ipad2 with Apple LossLess/CD Error correction>Cambridge Audio iD100 Docking Station >Illuminati D-60/BNC>Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro32 (SET AT 20 BIT DITHER)>Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference i2s>Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 w/remote wand>Kimber Select 1030>Decware SuperZen CKC Amp>Kimber Select 3033> Polk LS 90 & HSU MBM....Room Acoustically treated/Dedicated Room & Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer // Herbie's Halo's on all Tubes & 2.5lb Mapleshade Brass weight on top of CKC Transformer // XLO Pro Power Cord to SuperZen




2 Channel Home Theater (w/Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers):
(DVD, Blu-ray disc, CD, Vinyl, HDTV & Sirius Sat Radio via Dish Network)

Panasonic Blu-ray>Kimber Hero IC>Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp>Kimber Timbre IC>Emotiva XPA-2/(300 watts per CH into 8 ohms)>Kimber 8TC Speaker Cable>Polk SDA SRS 1.2/(use SDA always)>Kimber PK10 Palladian Power Cord to Emotiva XPA-2

Dish Network/HD DVR with Kimber KCAG IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....
Sharp 46' Aquos Quattron HDTV/extra thread of Yellow (2nd only to the Pioneer Kuro)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Red Plinth) to Pro-Ject Phono Box II with Audio Quest Diamondback IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....

Velodyne Subwoofer wired with Kimber 8TC out of Emotiva XPA-2
Soon to be replaced by: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html .....(fall of 2013 purchase)




Bedroom System:

Pioneer DV-563A...Illuminati D-60...Cambridge Audio DacMagic...Kimber Silver Streak...Decware SE84CS (stock)...Zen Styx w/Silver plugs...Klipsch RF 52 II
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« Last Edit: 03/27/13 at 00:17:39 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #59 - 03/26/13 at 22:47:04
 
beowulf, I can't answer that question with absolute certainty since I'm running full range mains. My guess is it might have even a greater positive impact with smaller speakers? Most Bookshelf speakers today have output down to 50-60 Hz and the MBM simply lays over or augments the 50 150 Hz range.

In my system the MBM meshes seamlessly producing a much broader more solid foundation to the music. It just adds dynamics and snap to drums and bass notes that you do not get from speakers alone. This carries throughout my house and sounds good in any of my rooms and I'm talking at only low to moderate volume.

I've been listening at lower overall volumes with much more satisfaction than ever before. The problem has always been I keep nudging the volume up looking for the BEEF and typically things get edgy before the BEEF arrives so I have to back off the volume and settle for what I can get. With the MBM the perfect amount of BEEF always seems to be there regardless of volume.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #60 - 03/27/13 at 00:29:58
 
Stone, I'm proud of you, you really went for it! And it seems to be paying off!

Like will I'm enjoying reading about these as well, and I'd never heard of them til this thread.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #61 - 03/27/13 at 00:37:52
 
From DBC posts: Quote:
The MBM-12 is connected to the Super Zen via speaker level connection also operating in what HSU calls "Augmentation Mode". So the mains and MBM-12 are both reproducing the signal below 150 Hz down to around 50 Hz. ........

Per Steve Deckert's advice I use the speaker level connections so that the MBM is reproducing as close as it can the signature of the Super Zen amp. ........

So left channel for instance I run speaker level connection to the left sub and daisy chain to the left MBM.


Sorry for my ignorance, but I am confused by speaker level connection. I guess your amp has only one set of binding posts out...Are you running two wires off each speaker out post?

This is fun thread. I, like many, have spent a lot of time, money and struggle with this 150 or so down frequency range. I have it sounding exceptional now, and I am beginning with more power (Torii MkIII) and my speakers (HR-1) go low easily and well....but...you know...this thread makes me wonder.

With this room, there is no place between my speakers for an MBM, so I am thinking it may not work for me...

Stone: How is your placement exploration going?

Do you guys think it may be possible for a single unit to work outside the speakers. I sort of doubt it. When I had a Veladyne sub years ago, even it, with a lower crossover, sounded better between the speakers, though it was still good much closer to one than the other.

I am wondering if it might be worth the trial thing knowing it would have to be placed outside the main speakers.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #62 - 03/27/13 at 01:03:25
 
Lon, thanks....this MBM is fun and worth trying when you're ready. Meaning: I know you are moving to help your folks and I wish you a good move and a not so arduous set up to your new surroundings and Listening Room.

Will, I'll let DBC answer and then I'll get back about my placement.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #63 - 03/27/13 at 02:44:00
 
Will, the answer is yes, two sets of wires off of the amp left and right speaker posts. I use Kimber between the amp and Speakers. I use Cat-5 network cable between the amp and Mid Bass Module.

The Mid Bass Module has a very high input impedance which means it draws virtually no current from the amp so the small Cat-5 conductors work just fine. For a Single MBM I have used a single Cat-5 cable which has 4 twisted pair. I strip back the insulation and twist conductors together to effectively have two twisted pair (left plus & minus, right plus & minus). So basically you end up with one contained cable that carries the left and right signals and it is good for longer runs (especially when experimenting with multiple locations). I prefer the Cat-5 with solid conductors, they seem more durable.

As far as placement I have only tried it once outside the speakers. Placing the MBM in the front right corner in my room resulted in a 60-70 Hz room induced peak. This was a room issue unrelated to the MBM best I can tell. In a different room it may have been fine ???  So in all honesty I can't answer that question. I can say using a single MBM located next to my right speaker sounded good (it does not sound like the bass is weighted to the right side of the soundstage at all).

It's interesting and maybe Stone can share his thoughts here but with the MBM pretty much anywhere along my front wall I can never actually hear IT. All I hear is the improvement it adds to the overall music presentation, no audible directionality. It very well could be fine as long as it is not directly beside or behind your listening position.

In general I have found the MBM to be very forgiving as far as placement and integration into the rest of the system. Nowhere near the issues that regular subwoofers seem to always present.
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Philip K. D*ck

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #64 - 03/27/13 at 04:12:24
 
Yeah I'm moving alright, was packing a POD today. I really don't feel I need these MBM in my current set up with the HR-1 speakers predominantly played, those have a lot of mid-bass energy and a solid lower foundation, and this room has enough volume to get some good waves going. Wondering about my next place, and also about playback levels there, and won't know for a while (and predict a lot less listening time so even if it may be "needed" it may not become a priority).
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« Last Edit: 03/27/13 at 19:45:06 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #65 - 03/27/13 at 17:41:10
 
Okay, Stone is listening to Heartfelt by Fourplay (Larry Carlton, Bob James, Nathan East & Harvey Mason).

Nathan's Bass Line on this whole Album is integrated so well without getting in the way of the Super Zen CKC's (those Jupiter Caps per your Topology=unreal Steve)....mojo Magic...... .

Period=Stone has dropped the MIC and left the building.....(back to the Listening Room).   Cheers
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
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will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #66 - 03/27/13 at 19:33:53
 
Yes the Jupiter caps! Amazing in my newly modded...also a way to get weight and body...Zstage. I wanted another input and the Jupiter caps and Steve did these with a ground update. My Zstage is #02.

Right off the caps sounded notably better to me than my memory of the stock caps, more information (especially in the upper mids, but throughout) and better flow without sounding too anything. Now with a few more days on them, things are getting more smooth and sweet. Though the bass is quite good, no doubt the caps will continue to get better, and as usual, become more resolving. I look forward to how they end up sounding.

Anyway "riding the gains" is back for me, and I really like this tool for adding or subtracting weight and body depending on the recording and volume.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #67 - 03/27/13 at 20:03:56
 
Oops, I forgot to thank you for your input on MBM placement and hookup clarification DBC. I do appreciate your careful and informative observations! Looks like it could be worth a try here...A bit of a crap shoot with the room mode based on placement thing you have mentioned, and since my options are very limited, but hmmmm...I have to consider it more.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #68 - 03/27/13 at 20:46:25
 
Will,

I see you are out New Mexico way so shipping charges from CA to you would not be that bad. I would encourage you to give it a try. Get a 15 foot length of Cat-5 cable off the roll at Lowes. Hook up the MBM as suggested and with this length connection you can experiment with it around the room at various locations. Although you know it can't stay there try it in front of you somewhere between the mains for comparison also. This thing does not need to be slam up against a wall to be effective.

I have to warn you though, the Mid Bass Module is a bit like Indoor Plumbing, once you have experienced it you probably won't want to send it back.

I received a new Canned Heat CD today (Future Blues 1970) and was listening to that during lunch. My toes were tapping and head was bobbing to the rambling Blues Jam with a great bass groove. Half way through the CD I turned the Mid Bass Module and HSU 15" sealed sub OFF. WOW, what a let-down. I could still hear the bass line but it was thin and not engaging at all compared to what I was just listening to.

Next I turned the 15" sealed sub back ON (crossed over at 50 Hz). Really not much improvement, still dry. Flip the MBM back on and my toes are tapping and head is bobbing once again.

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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beowulf
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #69 - 03/27/13 at 21:45:24
 
Quote:
DBC,
Will, the answer is yes, two sets of wires off of the amp left and right speaker posts. I use Kimber between the amp and Speakers. I use Cat-5 network cable between the amp and Mid Bass Module.

The Mid Bass Module has a very high input impedance which means it draws virtually no current from the amp so the small Cat-5 conductors work just fine. For a Single MBM I have used a single Cat-5 cable which has 4 twisted pair. I strip back the insulation and twist conductors together to effectively have two twisted pair (left plus & minus, right plus & minus). So basically you end up with one contained cable that carries the left and right signals and it is good for longer runs (especially when experimenting with multiple locations). I prefer the Cat-5 with solid conductors, they seem more durable.


Hi DBC, is there any way you can snap a pic of the back of the amp of how the cables are attached?  I'm trying to picture this in my mind, but a pic would be really helpful of possible!

So are both cables (speaker and cat) screwed into the same speaker binding posts on the amp?  How are the speaker cables terminated (with spades, bananas or with just the raw cable)?
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #70 - 03/28/13 at 02:50:48
 
beowulf,

My apologies, I can see I was not clear regarding the connections and appreciate your pointing that out. I generally use bare wire connections so multiple wires connected to a binding post is not a problem. I can see that for many that is not the norm.

A little background. About 10 years ago I purchased a set of Kimber cables with banana connectors. Tried them in my system 3 or 4 times over a 2 year period and never warmed up to them. They just sounded Dark with no Sparkle on the high end. Then one day for the hell of it I removed the banana ends and installed them bare end. A completely different cable and been using them ever since. So based on that experience I generally go bare wire to eliminate the connector as a possible variable.

If you happen to use spades then you can get stackable banana connectors from Radio Shack that will accept bare ends from the Cat-5 cable:



These will plug directly into the top of the existing Decware binding post. These are the ones I use when experimenting and a lot of plugging and unplugging is required.

If you are using speaker cables with banana terminations then you should be able to attach bare end wires to the Decware binding post and it will still accept the banana connectors from your speaker cables.

For the MBM I use CAT-5 network cable simply because it is designed to carry low level electrical signals while rejecting electromagnetic noise. The MBM has a big Magnet & Coil in it. I don't have any engineering data to support that it actually works in an audio system but to my ear it sounds good on the MBM.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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beowulf
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #71 - 03/29/13 at 23:41:27
 
DBC, thanks for the clarification on the cabling.  This Mid-Bass is on my short list of component upgrades and very reasonably priced.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #72 - 03/30/13 at 15:47:51
 
stone_of_tone wrote:

Quote:
DBC, thanks, I do have a low level faint hum at close range and I will get some Alligator Clips from R-Shack. (Using Spkr level conn too).

I love what I'm hearing from the MBM. The unit on carpet has no issues. I have it set at 150 hz and in sealed mode just a line under half volume for my room. I have it 5 feet out from the right corner wall-along the wall far enough away from me not to cause localization.  


Stone, just wondering how your system is coming along?

Thought I would mention that in my room with two Mid Bass Modules I have the volume knob set 2 lines above half volume on each. Initially I could not set the volume above half or else it would start to get a little boomy on some music but not other. Music that went really low could get boomy.

For anyone following this thread, the Mid Bass Module volume knob has 20 lines etched into it. So adjusting the knob setting up or down by one line is not much in terms of knob rotation but has quite an effect on the perceived MBM output from my experience.

When I upgraded to the CKC I was able to increase the MBM volume to 1 line past half volume due to it's improved low frequency resolution. Later after improving the MBM ground the volume was increased to 2 lines past half volume. I should mention that each time I was able to increase the volume setting the bass did not really get louder, just cleaner.

Now I can listen to all types of music with no tendency to get boomy. If I turn the MBM volume up to 3 lines past half volume it does not get boomy, rather just sounds like there is too much bass. To me this is an indication that the MBM frequency response is now reasonably flat in my room.

My point here is if you sense a boomy tendency on some music material but not other with a given MBM volume setting then you could potentially have an issue with:

Source component low frequency resolution is lacking.

Amp low frequency resolution should not be an issue since we both have the CKC.

Room induced low frequency peak due to MBM placement.

Low frequency peak created by 60 Hz AC hum due to ground.

Stone, another point. I was concerned about wiring between the amp and MBM. If you run these wires close to power cables they may pick up induced AC noise, also the MBM is not magnetically shielded. That is why I went with CAT-5 computer cable.

Although I was impressed with the MBM performance out of the box, it took months before I realized some of these little issues existed in my system. They were subtle but addressing them made a difference.
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« Last Edit: 03/30/13 at 15:50:23 by DBC »  

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #73 - 04/01/13 at 15:15:02
 
Thanks for the pointers and adjustments DBC. As I spend more time with the MBM....I will get things fleshed out.

I could not resist moving the MBM to my HT Rig and placing it as suggested by HSU, behind my couch where I sit. It has been a fun weekend having it back there!

I have my RF-7 II's coming on Wednesday or Thursday. I find out from the Trucking Co. today...!  They ship on a Palet...as yours probably did too....for safe arrival/keeping.
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« Last Edit: 04/01/13 at 15:20:22 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #74 - 04/05/13 at 17:26:49
 
Klipsch RF-7 II's are in the House (bedroom System)/since Wednesday. Man, these Spks were something to schleep in by myself from the garage unpacking. I am home today, so I have about 20 hours on them since Wednesday night.

My MBM 12 is out in the 2.1CH HT setup. I am liking it very much in this capacity placed behind the couch with the regular Sub up between the mains. Movies, Vinyl, Sat. Radio and LIVE at Daryl's HOUSE from Palladia are awesome. I did not care for the MBM in my Listening Room System. I prefer the purity of the SuperZen CKC in that; my Reference System.

Back to the Klipsch RF-7 II's: I purchased a pair for $1780.00 delivered factory brand new B Stock (I found one little scratch that rendered it B Stock). Audio Design out of Las Vegas/Factory Auth. Dealer/Mike Embers...I highly recommend. I received great service and a great product shipped timely via R & L Carriers on a skid/pallet.

I had to work my Alchemy on the best mix of Equip & Cables...I ended up running my Kimber Hero IC with the Zen Styx...also with my (2nd) AA DTI Pro, then into my Cambridge DAC Magic. The DTI Pro takes this DAC to another level...and is still signifcant today.

Anyway, the RF-7 II's blow the ZU Unions away. The Zu's came with 500 hours burn in and I only have 20 hours on the Klipsch. The Zu's could not get the upper treble right for me. I guess it is right to say for some of us....."I have never found a 10" full range driver with a whizzer cone I've liked".....even one crossed over at 12K. YMMV

Any designer including Steve will tell you....one System can't do it all....SO I have 4 System's.  
I have the subtle Tone/Texture and layering musicality in my Listening Room Reference System.
I have the brute force and extra loudness when called upon with the RF-7 II's. ....yes, I have already freaked out my neighbor with just 2 watts running the RF-7 II's.

Cheers, Stone of Tone


Listening Room System (12 x 14 room):

Sony as Transport>Illuminati D-60/BNC>Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro32(SET IN 20 BIT DITHER)>Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference i2s>Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 w/remote wand>Kimber Select 1030>Decware SuperZen CKC Amp>Kimber Select 3033> Polk LS 90....Room Acoustically treated/Dedicated Room & Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer // Herbie's Halo's on all Tubes & 2.5lb Mapleshade Brass weight on top of CKC Transformer // XLO Pro Power Cord to SuperZen//Tip Toe Cone Feet with Vibrapods underneath LS-90's in Tri-configuration//8 pound sq. covered dumbell on each Speaker


2 Channel Home Theater (w/Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers):
(DVD, Blu-ray disc, CD, Vinyl, HDTV & Sirius Sat Radio via Dish Network)

Panasonic Blu-ray>Kimber Silver Streak IC>Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp>Kimber Timbre IC>Emotiva XPA-2/(300 watts per CH into 8 ohms)>Kimber 8TC Speaker Cable>Polk SDA SRS 1.2/(use SDA always)>Kimber PK10 Palladian Power Cord to Emotiva XPA-2

Dish Network/HD DVR with Kimber KCAG IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....
Sharp 46' Aquos Quattron HDTV/extra thread of Yellow (2nd only to the Pioneer Kuro)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Red Plinth) to Pro-Ject Phono Box II with Audio Quest Diamondback IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....

HSU Research MBM 12 wired with 14 guage to Spkr level conn.
Velodyne Subwoofer wired with Kimber 8TC out of Emotiva XPA-2


Bedroom System:
Pioneer DV-563A...Illuminati D-60...Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro (SET IN 20 BIT DITHER)...Stereovox XV2.....Cambridge Audio DacMagic...Kimber Hero IC...Decware SE84CS (stock)...Zen Styx w/Silver plugs...Klipsch RF-7 II

Garage System:
IPAD2...to Classic Rotel Receiver...Parker Audio Crusader's
B Speaker connections has Dayton Audio all weather Spkrs on back Patio
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« Last Edit: 04/05/13 at 18:07:53 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #75 - 04/09/13 at 05:22:13
 
I had to do it. I moved the Klipsch RF-7 II's to my 2.1.1 Rig (w/MBM 12 & Velo Sub). You can drive them with 2 watts/ch as DBC can attest to. However, boy do they love power! .....running off my Emotiva XPA-2. I am going to enjoy them in this Rig for awhile and then get them in to the Listening Room eventually (they are big and heavy when moving them by yourself)...along with the return of the MBM 12.

I put the RF-52 II's back in the Bedroom System to stay. They do a nice job in this BRoom Rig setup.   Cheers, Stone
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« Last Edit: 04/09/13 at 05:24:25 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #76 - 04/10/13 at 17:08:44
 
The RF-7 II's spent Monday & Tuesday night in the 2.1.1 Rig for some Solid State Action with my Emotiva XPA-2 = Fun. However, late last night it was time already to hand the Torch back to my Polk SRS SDA 1.2's with the Emo Amp and HSU MBM 12. So I moved them in to the Listening Room System and the RF-7's are  lets say, high efficiency Speakers I can live with.

The 7's can't layer Tone and Decay of notes, or provide the sense of Air around the Instruments as well as my Polk LS-90's can with my Kimber Select 1030 IC and Kimber Select 3033 Speaker Cable with SuperZen CKC or SE84CS...but they are fun none- the-less for the extra volume, when I want to crank it up a little more! I have each pair of Speakers configured in the room to not hurt the other sonically and I can switch Speakers via my Banana Plugs between the Pairs on the Fly.

The RF-7's certainly benefit from No Negative Feedback and Even Order Harmonic's. Like Paul Klipsch said: "what the world needs is a good 7 watt Tube Amplifier". Steve D certainly makes them from 2 to now 60 watt Mono Blocks. (I prefer the Original Svetlana SV83 Pentode's run in Triode with No Negative Feedback...Steve is Genius for capitalizing on this Tube).

My Listening Room size and Acoustic Treatments are yeilding good Bass from the 7's. I am not inclined to bring the MBM 12 back in any time soon. I am loving what the MBM 12 is doing with my Sources in the Emotiva Rig with the SDA 1.2 Speakers.

Anyway, the MBM is a worth while Product and I use it most of the time in the Big Rig with the main Velo Sub off. It integrates very well and the Volume Knob is at my left hand reach to adjust for different Sources. Less is more with this wonderful Mid-Bass device.  

Cheers, Stone of Tone (off now to put gas in the Snow Blower for my pending 6 to 8 inches we are to receive today...Spring/what Spring?)
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« Last Edit: 04/10/13 at 17:14:41 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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TypeA
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #77 - 10/21/13 at 19:40:18
 
Thanks for this review DBC.  I find it ironic there is so little in the way of reviews on the MBM-12.  I added a pair near-field behind the couch to compliment my pair of Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subs up front.  Amazing difference in performance, especially in music performance.  Thanks again for taking the time to write this up, its one of the few reviews for these MBMs.
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JVC RS60 & DaLite High Power 106". Secondary: Panasonic Viera TC-P65ST30.
Paradigm Studio 20 (5) & ADP590 (2). Hsu VTF-2 MK3 (2) & MBM-12 MK2 (2).
Yamaha RXA3010 & Emotiva XPA5. Oppo BDP93, Xbox 360 Elite, Integra DPT1.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #78 - 10/22/13 at 00:00:17
 
TypeA,

Glad to hear that your MBM-12 purchase is adding so much to the enjoyment of your system. You nailed it, these are great with Home Theater but what they do with music has to be heard to be believed.

Based on your equipment list I guess you have the MBM-12's connected via line level (interconnect) connections?? I was just wondering if you have any detectable hum from the MBM's when music is on pause?? Also was curious where you have the volume knob set on each unit.

I have my MBM's connected via speaker level connections and in the beginning had the volume knob set at about 35%, any higher and the bass would get a little boomy. Took me a while to realize I had a ground loop and low level 60 hz hum creating the boomy effect.

I was able to cure the ground loop, get rid of the 60 hz hum and increase the MBM volume setting to 50% with very positive effects. Just thought I would mention this in case you have any detectable hum.

In any event in my conversations with Dr. Hsu he indicated the potential for ground loops (60 hz AC hum) is minimal when using line level connections. Just wanted to confirm your method of connection and that it is hum free.

Enjoy

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #79 - 10/22/13 at 02:26:10
 
Yes the Yamaha 3010 processor has dual independent low level sub outputs and thats what Im using for both the subs and MBMs.  The outputs are split and the Yammy is set for a front/rear sub configuration.  Good phase was a priority for me and luckily YPAO got my distances very accurate, especially considering Im running a pair off each output.  Crossover from satellites to low levels are higher than Ive ever preferred but after much experimenting with 80 Hz I found that 90 Hz just works better.  The VTFs take over at 45 Hz to prevent phasing and reinforcement as much as possible.  

My gain is really determined by YPAO.  Both subs and MBMs are well below 25%, like 15%,  otherwise YPAO would come back during room calibration and say the gain is too high and it cant lower them enough. Im hyper sensitive to localization and yet even near field with a 90 Hz crossover I get no localization and excellent performance.  Sounds very natural, mellow and with no boom at all, very hard to argue with what YPAO does in the gain department.  However I can see running a higher gain if they were far field along my front stage.  Luckily Ive never had any buzzing.  I listen to my system pretty loud with both music and theater so I think Im good, free of any ground loop issues, thanks for the heads up.    
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« Last Edit: 10/22/13 at 02:28:02 by TypeA »  

JVC RS60 & DaLite High Power 106". Secondary: Panasonic Viera TC-P65ST30.
Paradigm Studio 20 (5) & ADP590 (2). Hsu VTF-2 MK3 (2) & MBM-12 MK2 (2).
Yamaha RXA3010 & Emotiva XPA5. Oppo BDP93, Xbox 360 Elite, Integra DPT1.
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shold350
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #80 - 11/08/13 at 03:35:47
 
This my first post to the forum and my first venture into stereo gear in a long time. I purchased a SE341.3 amp, Decware speaker cables/interconnects, Denon turntable, Oppo BPD105, HSU MBM12-MK2, and a soon to arrive pair of MG944's to play it all through. I have not heard any of my system yet. I have been connecting all of my components as they arrive and the last piece was the HSU MBM12. I am using some Straight Wire double shielded cables running from the line out jacks on the amp to the MBM and am getting a low hum from the module when it is powered up without the amp being turned on (haven't powered it up at all not having speakers yet). I tried plugging the MBM directly into the wall and through my surge protector with no difference. Powering it up without the line cables plugged in I get no hum at all so it is not an internal issue with the module as far as I can tell. The HSU paperwork says it is a grounding issue withe interconnects or the amp. Any ideas as to how to solve this would be welcome. I read earlier in this post of some similar issues when using multiple subs and modules but this may be a different scenario. I am truly excited to hear all of the promise that this system holds just need to get it right. Thanks from a newbie
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Decware SE34I.3 Rachael amp, CSP3, Denon 300F TT with Ortofon 2M red cartridge, Oppo BDP 105,HSU Mid Bass Module 12 MK2, HR1's, Decware ZSTYX speaker cables, Decware silver reference interconnects, LG 60" plasma
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #81 - 11/08/13 at 14:38:24
 
shold350,

This is how I isolated and solved the problem. Get yourself some test leads with alligator clips on each end, I use these from Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062622

They come in a 4-pack so you can clip them together to create a single longer lead as required.

Clip one end of the test lead on to any of the toggle switches on your MBM amp. Clip the other end of the test lead on to the case of the surge protector that you have all your other gear connected to. This will connect the chassis of your MBM amp to the same earth ground as everything else in your system.

If your surge protector is properly grounded, then the MBM chassis will be on the same earth ground as all your other equipment and this should eliminate the hum. Not the most elegant solution but it is very effective.

If you have the MBM power cord connected to a surge protector be sure you are using one of the "High Current Outlets" on the surge protector. The MBM needs a good bit of juice since it has a 350 watt internal amp.

You probably noticed the HSU MBM has a 2-prong power cord (no earth ground). I discussed this curious choice with Dr. Hsu. My understanding is they went this way to minimize Hum issues associated with Poor Earth Ground Wiring found in many homes. If your home wiring does not have a good ground to earth to begin with then refrigerators and other appliances can feed electrical noise back into your system through the earth ground.

Bottom line is if you want a completely Hum Free (Ground Loop Free) audio system you have to have a home that is properly wired to earth ground to begin with. Second, to eliminate any potential Ground Loop between components within your audio system each component chassis must be properly connected to the same earth ground. Connecting the ground jumper as I outline above should do that.

Let me know how you make out.
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« Last Edit: 11/08/13 at 15:18:32 by DBC »  

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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shold350
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #82 - 11/09/13 at 19:37:35
 
When you mention clip the test lead to the case of the surge protector do you mean the exterior plastic shell or to one of the ground post on an unused receptacle?
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Decware SE34I.3 Rachael amp, CSP3, Denon 300F TT with Ortofon 2M red cartridge, Oppo BDP 105,HSU Mid Bass Module 12 MK2, HR1's, Decware ZSTYX speaker cables, Decware silver reference interconnects, LG 60" plasma
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #83 - 11/09/13 at 23:32:52
 
Shold350, Sorry for the confusion. I have three audio surge protection strips and all three have metal housings (cases). The metal housing is connected to earth ground per the electrical schematic provided in the owners manual.

If your surge protection strip has an all plastic outer housing clipping the MBM ground jumper wire to the plastic will not establish a path to earth ground. If your surge protection strip has threaded coax connectors for cable surge protection (see photo) clipping to the threaded outer portion will work also. In the photo the green jumper wire from MBM toggle switch is connected to the surge strip via the outer threaded portion of the coax connector.

The ground post of any unused receptacle will work also but I don't think you will be able to clip to it ??

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« Last Edit: 11/09/13 at 23:36:22 by DBC »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #84 - 11/12/13 at 13:03:46
 
Thanks for the images. I changed my connection from the line outs to the MBM to using the speaker posts going to the MBM and the hum is all but gone. I can hear it only if I turn the volume up almost to max on the MBM. I'm still not sure how it will sound when it gets a real signal from the amp. Thanks again for all of your help with this
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #85 - 11/19/13 at 01:02:48
 
shold350,

Glad to help. When do you expect to receive your new speakers?

Phil has basically the same gear and is getting good results (see attached link for comments).

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1361290817/15#15
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #86 - 11/19/13 at 01:16:23
 
DBC,
I'm not sure of the date for the mains but it should be fairly soon. My only concern is that I am having to place the mbm to one side of my couch which is the only seating in my  bedroom converted to a small media/listening room. I just don't have enough wall space with my setup to put it out in front with the mains. I hope that with some volume adjustments through the dual controls on the amp and the one on the mbm I can find a good compromise. I am sure it will still sound better than any thing I've had since an old rack mounted Nikko setup I had back in 1979 running a pair of JBL L-36's.
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« Last Edit: 11/19/13 at 02:25:08 by shold350 »  

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #87 - 01/03/14 at 17:54:20
 
Bump
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #88 - 01/07/14 at 00:29:45
 
I received the MG944's a few days ago and have been playing with the system as much as possible. Overall I am blow away by the quality of all of the components in my system. It is by far the nicest system I have ever owned and I am just getting started on the break-in period.

I have run into what seems to be somewhat of a common problem however. I am getting some pretty noticeable hum.  I only have two sources coming from my Decware input selector box into the amp. One is a Denon turntable and the other is an Oppo 105 BDP. When I remove the interconnects from the Oppo the hum is eliminated. All of my components are run through a low dollar surge protector which is going into a standard wall socket. I have tried switching plugs around. Moving the Oppo/Amp off of the surge protector individually and plugging them directly into the wall with no change in the hum (didn't really expect to make a difference). I don't have the budget to have a special circuit created just for this room or the buy any exotic type of power conditioner. Any suggestions as to a reasonable remedy would be welcomed. I have a Rachel amp and have read in the forum that their may be a difference in the grounding on these compared to other Decware amps. I am no engineer and don't know if this actually accurate just trying to get it quiet. I have also noticed that dvd soundtracks do not play as loud as music cd's. Having to turn up the volume to play some concert dvd's just makes the humming a larger problem. I spoke to Steve about this issue and he has sent me some 6N2P input tubes to bump up the gain.    
I will try to post some pics of my new system over the next few days.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #89 - 01/07/14 at 17:14:16
 
shold350,

I have the Oppo BDP-83SE, DVD's & Blue Ray's typically have lower output levels than CD's (have to turn the volume knob up as you describe). No hum in my system with higher volume settings.

Is the Hum coming primarily from your main speakers, mid bass module or both? Any 60 hz hum from a ground loop would become more audible as you increase the MBM volume knob setting.

Since hum disappears when removing the Oppo interconnects it sounds like a ground loop between the Oppo and Amp. This suggests the Amp power cord and Oppo power cord are not seeing the same clean connection to earth ground when plugged in? Say for example the power cord earth ground connection on the Oppo is not as good as the power cord earth ground connection on your Amp. What happens is that any AC in the Oppo chassis (that would normally flow harmlessly to ground through the Oppo power cord) instead finds an easier path to ground through the interconnects and Amp power cord.

First thing I would do is go Oppo Direct to Amp, Amp to Mains and mid bass module turned OFF. If hum is still present disconnect speaker level connections to the mid bass module to eliminate it entirely. If hum persists try connecting a test lead from the Amp chassis to wall socket earth ground. Do the same for the Oppo if necessary.


This link might give you some more ideas: http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/ground-loops-eliminating-syst...
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #90 - 01/07/14 at 22:40:40
 
Found this simple, crude but effective diagram on the net to help visualize ground loops. In this case two devices (amp & mixer) are connected to two different outlets going to separate breaker panels each with it's own earth ground rod. The power cord from each device has 3 conductors (Hot, Ground & Earth Ground).

In this case the the earth ground connected to the mixer has a potential of +3 volts while the amp earth ground is at 0 volts. Electrons always wanting to take the path of least resistance travel from the mixer across the audio line connection to the Amp and to Earth Ground through it's power cord.





The same problem can also occur even if Amp & Mixer are plugged into the same power strip. If power strip outlets have differing resistances to earth ground the same loop will occur. Current will flow over the audio line connection to the device with the best earth ground connection.

As a test you might try clipping one end of a test lead to the chassis of your Amp and the other end of the test lead to the chassis of your Oppo. This will provide an alternative path (between amp & oppo) for the current and will generally reduce hum if a ground loop exists. If hum is reduced it does not solve the problem but confirms a ground loop between two devices as the problem.

In the example above the ground loop would be eliminated if both devices were connected to the same ground (either one). Differences in resistance to earth ground can be caused by poor internal grounding within inexpensive power strips, poor wall outlet connections, improperly grounded wall outlets etc. For the time being I would remove any power strips and connect both devices into the same wall outlet. If the hum still exists check the wall outlet wiring & earth ground. If plugs fit loosely into the wall socket replace the wall outlet.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #91 - 01/08/14 at 01:53:25
 
DBC,
Thanks for all of your help on this. I am modifying my home built stand tonight and will be putting the system back together tomorrow. It will give me a chance to try some of the tips that you have given me. The hum is not noticeable when any music is on but having to turn up the volume quite a bit on some concert dvd's it is noticeable between songs. Might be too picky? Just want to get the best out of what is truly a nice sounding setup. I have about 15 to 20 hours playing time on the system and it is starting to open up I think. I am relocating my MBM from a side location to the front. This is requiring a modification to my stand but it sounds much better in the front.
If you have some tips as to posting pics on the new user forum I would like to try some. Thanks again for the advice and by the way it was your comments on the MBM that made me buy one. It was truly the icing on the cake.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #92 - 01/08/14 at 02:18:16
 
shold,

Because of the low output of my DVD players I ended up getting my   CSP2 and then my now three CSP2+ preamps. They really solved THAT problem, and added to the system too with weight and tonal balance that is "just right."

I know the problem you're describing well!
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #93 - 01/08/14 at 14:31:09
 
shold350,

You are not being too picky. For comparison this morning I was playing J. Joplin on my Oppo. I hit Pause and turned the volume knob on my Super Zen all the way UP. I had to have my ear very close to the main speaker drivers to hear only the faintest of hum.

I strongly recommend you get a quality surge protection device to plug all your equipment into such as this affordable unit from Tripp Lite:

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR6ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/B0000513US/ref...

Down the road you might want to consider an Isolation Transformer for your source components. This is basically the same unit Decware uses for their equipment demos and was recommended to me by Steve Deckert:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006HPHN/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&p...

I don't think an Isolation Transformer will solve your ground loop issue. These are used primarily to filter out noise on the incoming AC line that can induce hiss, static and hum into your source components.

If you use the Tripp Lite Isobar plug everything into that so each piece of equipment is on the same ground. The Mid Bass Module has a 2-prong plug (no earth ground) so I suggest clipping one end of a test lead to one of the MBM toggle switches and the other end to the metal case of the Isobar. This grounds the MBM amp chassis to the same ground as your other equipment.

If you do have a ground loop (60 hz hum) the MBM is very capable of making that audible. If you don't solve the Hum issue then you will only be able to set the MBM volume knob at about 30% (any higher and the bass gets boomy because of the 60 hz peak created by the ground loop). Once I solved my ground loop issue I was able to set the MBM volume at 50% with no boomy tendency. I have not touched the volume knob on my MBM for over a year now.

You are right about placement of the MBM for music. Sounds best along the front wall somewhere between the mains for best imaging when using a single MBM. Should note that once I solved my ground loop my MBM was not sensitive to placement anywhere between the mains.


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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #94 - 01/10/14 at 08:48:30
 
DBC
I ordered the TripLite surge protector today. Even if it does not cure the hum issue it looks like a good investment for protection. Thanks for the referral.
Lon
I have hopes of adding a CSP pre amp to my system someday. It will have to wait a while. I could always try to present the argument to my wife that the new surge protector will have one slot left empty on my current setup which could result an unbalanced line situation and could cause some serious damage to large investment we have made. It would be unwise not to get the CSP as another layer of protection. Unfortunately she is very intelligent and I would have no chance.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #95 - 01/10/14 at 13:13:49
 
s,

Yeah, I know all about having to explain and justify things to a wife. That held my system back for a long time, and when I lost her to lymphoma and MDS my system was able to grow and bloom in ways it probably never could with her around.

Still I'd rather have a boombox and VHS recorder than not have her if I had that choice! So hold your wife close and always tell her you love her! Smiley
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #96 - 01/10/14 at 16:48:47
 
Quote:
when I lost her to lymphoma and MDS my system was able to grow and bloom in ways it probably never could with her around.



That is probably one of the weirdest things I've ever read in any online forums, anywhere.

I'm sorry for your loss, Lon. It really sounds like you've been through a lot. - I don't think Brianne could handle any more love and kisses from me, I'm pretty sure I smother her as it is. But it's sound advice my friend.   Wink
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #97 - 02/04/14 at 16:23:29
 
shold350,

I was just curious as to any progress you may have made since your last post a couple weeks ago?

I was also interested in your impressions of the Oppo BDP-105 on music. I run the older BDP-83SE (Special Edition) directly into my Zen (no pre-amp). Have used the Decware CSP2 a couple of times but prefer the sound of my Oppo directly into the Zen amp.

Anyway, hope you are having fun with the new system.

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #98 - 02/06/14 at 00:31:51
 
Quote:
DBC,I guess it's been about 3 months since purchase.Yes, major difference.Like I said before the room sucks for sound.
18ft. ceiling 12ft.wide 32ft.long sloping down to one end.System is super zen.Oppo bdp95 ,MG945 speakers.
The sweet spot in this room was at the far end from my setup,sounded fabulous there.But I don't want to stand at one end of the room to listen to music.So enter the bass mod.It sets right next to the MG's and is connected as per your instructions from the zen.I can sit anywhere in the room now and enjoy the music as it should be.Truly amazing the information that is in the upper low end,and this system is also used for home theatre.I'm not really a sub-woofer kinda guy,don't need explosions to rattle the house, the mid bass covers enough low end for movies and fills in nicely for the music.I like the fact that you can dial in the freq. although I generally keep it at 150hz and volume set at half.Seems to work fine for most everything.Now since it's down firing into the carpet this concerned me a bit.I placed it on a board but that didn't seem to make a difference,I may experiment with that more in the future.
By the way,thanx for turning me on to this.
Phil


Quote from Forum Member Phil: http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1361290817/18#18
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #99 - 09/13/14 at 15:59:51
 
Wanted to add that placing a Sub Dude II isolation platform under my Mid Bass Modules and Sub Dude HT under my Subs really made a difference. I have a wood floor and was amazed how much energy was being transferred into the floor via the MBM & Sub enclosure feet. The floor was acting like a big radiator.

Did not think it possible to improve Bass & Mid Bass further but the isolation platforms made a very noticeable improvement (better clarity, even smoother bass). For the price I highly recommend the Auralex product on any suspended floor (carpeted or not).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDudeII
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