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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY" (Read 25964 times)
DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #90 - 01/07/14 at 22:40:40
 
Found this simple, crude but effective diagram on the net to help visualize ground loops. In this case two devices (amp & mixer) are connected to two different outlets going to separate breaker panels each with it's own earth ground rod. The power cord from each device has 3 conductors (Hot, Ground & Earth Ground).

In this case the the earth ground connected to the mixer has a potential of +3 volts while the amp earth ground is at 0 volts. Electrons always wanting to take the path of least resistance travel from the mixer across the audio line connection to the Amp and to Earth Ground through it's power cord.





The same problem can also occur even if Amp & Mixer are plugged into the same power strip. If power strip outlets have differing resistances to earth ground the same loop will occur. Current will flow over the audio line connection to the device with the best earth ground connection.

As a test you might try clipping one end of a test lead to the chassis of your Amp and the other end of the test lead to the chassis of your Oppo. This will provide an alternative path (between amp & oppo) for the current and will generally reduce hum if a ground loop exists. If hum is reduced it does not solve the problem but confirms a ground loop between two devices as the problem.

In the example above the ground loop would be eliminated if both devices were connected to the same ground (either one). Differences in resistance to earth ground can be caused by poor internal grounding within inexpensive power strips, poor wall outlet connections, improperly grounded wall outlets etc. For the time being I would remove any power strips and connect both devices into the same wall outlet. If the hum still exists check the wall outlet wiring & earth ground. If plugs fit loosely into the wall socket replace the wall outlet.
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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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shold350
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #91 - 01/08/14 at 01:53:25
 
DBC,
Thanks for all of your help on this. I am modifying my home built stand tonight and will be putting the system back together tomorrow. It will give me a chance to try some of the tips that you have given me. The hum is not noticeable when any music is on but having to turn up the volume quite a bit on some concert dvd's it is noticeable between songs. Might be too picky? Just want to get the best out of what is truly a nice sounding setup. I have about 15 to 20 hours playing time on the system and it is starting to open up I think. I am relocating my MBM from a side location to the front. This is requiring a modification to my stand but it sounds much better in the front.
If you have some tips as to posting pics on the new user forum I would like to try some. Thanks again for the advice and by the way it was your comments on the MBM that made me buy one. It was truly the icing on the cake.
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Decware Torii Mk4, CSP3, Denon 300F TT with Ortofon 2M red cartridge, Oppo BDP 105,HSU Mid Bass Module 12 MK2, HR1's, Decware ZSTYX speaker cables, Decware silver reference interconnects, LG 60" plasma
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #92 - 01/08/14 at 02:18:16
 
shold,

Because of the low output of my DVD players I ended up getting my   CSP2 and then my now three CSP2+ preamps. They really solved THAT problem, and added to the system too with weight and tonal balance that is "just right."

I know the problem you're describing well!
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III;PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,P5,AC-12 pcs;Denon DVD-A1UDCI Rega RP3,TTPSU,white belt+Exact2;VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius Cremona, UltraLinear ICs, Iso-Pods;Mapleshade:Dble Heiix Plus,Samson v2+3 +4" pltfrms;Herbie's Iso-Cups;Opp PM-1
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #93 - 01/08/14 at 14:31:09
 
shold350,

You are not being too picky. For comparison this morning I was playing J. Joplin on my Oppo. I hit Pause and turned the volume knob on my Super Zen all the way UP. I had to have my ear very close to the main speaker drivers to hear only the faintest of hum.

I strongly recommend you get a quality surge protection device to plug all your equipment into such as this affordable unit from Tripp Lite:

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ISOBAR6ULTRA-Isobar-Protector/dp/B0000513US/ref...

Down the road you might want to consider an Isolation Transformer for your source components. This is basically the same unit Decware uses for their equipment demos and was recommended to me by Steve Deckert:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006HPHN/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&p...

I don't think an Isolation Transformer will solve your ground loop issue. These are used primarily to filter out noise on the incoming AC line that can induce hiss, static and hum into your source components.

If you use the Tripp Lite Isobar plug everything into that so each piece of equipment is on the same ground. The Mid Bass Module has a 2-prong plug (no earth ground) so I suggest clipping one end of a test lead to one of the MBM toggle switches and the other end to the metal case of the Isobar. This grounds the MBM amp chassis to the same ground as your other equipment.

If you do have a ground loop (60 hz hum) the MBM is very capable of making that audible. If you don't solve the Hum issue then you will only be able to set the MBM volume knob at about 30% (any higher and the bass gets boomy because of the 60 hz peak created by the ground loop). Once I solved my ground loop issue I was able to set the MBM volume at 50% with no boomy tendency. I have not touched the volume knob on my MBM for over a year now.

You are right about placement of the MBM for music. Sounds best along the front wall somewhere between the mains for best imaging when using a single MBM. Should note that once I solved my ground loop my MBM was not sensitive to placement anywhere between the mains.


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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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shold350
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #94 - 01/10/14 at 08:48:30
 
DBC
I ordered the TripLite surge protector today. Even if it does not cure the hum issue it looks like a good investment for protection. Thanks for the referral.
Lon
I have hopes of adding a CSP pre amp to my system someday. It will have to wait a while. I could always try to present the argument to my wife that the new surge protector will have one slot left empty on my current setup which could result an unbalanced line situation and could cause some serious damage to large investment we have made. It would be unwise not to get the CSP as another layer of protection. Unfortunately she is very intelligent and I would have no chance.
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Decware Torii Mk4, CSP3, Denon 300F TT with Ortofon 2M red cartridge, Oppo BDP 105,HSU Mid Bass Module 12 MK2, HR1's, Decware ZSTYX speaker cables, Decware silver reference interconnects, LG 60" plasma
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #95 - 01/10/14 at 13:13:49
 
s,

Yeah, I know all about having to explain and justify things to a wife. That held my system back for a long time, and when I lost her to lymphoma and MDS my system was able to grow and bloom in ways it probably never could with her around.

Still I'd rather have a boombox and VHS recorder than not have her if I had that choice! So hold your wife close and always tell her you love her! Smiley
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III;PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,P5,AC-12 pcs;Denon DVD-A1UDCI Rega RP3,TTPSU,white belt+Exact2;VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius Cremona, UltraLinear ICs, Iso-Pods;Mapleshade:Dble Heiix Plus,Samson v2+3 +4" pltfrms;Herbie's Iso-Cups;Opp PM-1
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Lonely Raven
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #96 - 01/10/14 at 16:48:47
 
Quote:
when I lost her to lymphoma and MDS my system was able to grow and bloom in ways it probably never could with her around.



That is probably one of the weirdest things I've ever read in any online forums, anywhere.

I'm sorry for your loss, Lon. It really sounds like you've been through a lot. - I don't think Brianne could handle any more love and kisses from me, I'm pretty sure I smother her as it is. But it's sound advice my friend.   Wink
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« Last Edit: 01/10/14 at 16:49:23 by Lonely Raven »  
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #97 - 02/04/14 at 16:23:29
 
shold350,

I was just curious as to any progress you may have made since your last post a couple weeks ago?

I was also interested in your impressions of the Oppo BDP-105 on music. I run the older BDP-83SE (Special Edition) directly into my Zen (no pre-amp). Have used the Decware CSP2 a couple of times but prefer the sound of my Oppo directly into the Zen amp.

Anyway, hope you are having fun with the new system.

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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #98 - 02/06/14 at 00:31:51
 
Quote:
DBC,I guess it's been about 3 months since purchase.Yes, major difference.Like I said before the room sucks for sound.
18ft. ceiling 12ft.wide 32ft.long sloping down to one end.System is super zen.Oppo bdp95 ,MG945 speakers.
The sweet spot in this room was at the far end from my setup,sounded fabulous there.But I don't want to stand at one end of the room to listen to music.So enter the bass mod.It sets right next to the MG's and is connected as per your instructions from the zen.I can sit anywhere in the room now and enjoy the music as it should be.Truly amazing the information that is in the upper low end,and this system is also used for home theatre.I'm not really a sub-woofer kinda guy,don't need explosions to rattle the house, the mid bass covers enough low end for movies and fills in nicely for the music.I like the fact that you can dial in the freq. although I generally keep it at 150hz and volume set at half.Seems to work fine for most everything.Now since it's down firing into the carpet this concerned me a bit.I placed it on a board but that didn't seem to make a difference,I may experiment with that more in the future.
By the way,thanx for turning me on to this.
Phil


Quote from Forum Member Phil: http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1361290817/18#18
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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #99 - 09/13/14 at 15:59:51
 
Wanted to add that placing a Sub Dude II isolation platform under my Mid Bass Modules and Sub Dude HT under my Subs really made a difference. I have a wood floor and was amazed how much energy was being transferred into the floor via the MBM & Sub enclosure feet. The floor was acting like a big radiator.

Did not think it possible to improve Bass & Mid Bass further but the isolation platforms made a very noticeable improvement (better clarity, even smoother bass). For the price I highly recommend the Auralex product on any suspended floor (carpeted or not).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDudeII
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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #100 - 02/13/15 at 14:20:51
 
Quote:
Dave 1210 wrote regarding a software update for his DAC:

I went back to 1.21 last night and the listening fatigue went away.  That said, so did a lot of the detail (and the soundstage benefits I mentioned).  I never felt that I was missing detail with this DAC, until now.  It's amazing that this magnitude of change can be had with a firmware update, but I suppose that's the beauty of the FPGA.  

The ribbon's in my 944's offer great detail in the highs, but with this new firmware, it is too much for me.  That said, I will go back to Pikes Peak and see if I can get used to it.  I do hope that they dial back in a slight amount of body and weight though.  But usually once they start down a path with these firmware updates they tend to stick with it.  



I was in the same boat at one point with regard to listening fatigue. First question: why do we turn the volume up to the point where we start to experience fatigue (what are we looking for at the higher volume)? Second question: why when we turn the volume down (to eliminate the fatigue) are we left unsatisfied? Dave answers the question, I would argue we tend to turn the volume up to the Fatigue Point looking for the Weight & Body in the music. We get the Weight & Body but also get the Fatigue. If we turn the volume down below the Fatigue Point, we loose the all important Weight & Body.

I was in the same pickle using different tubes, cables etc. to tame the top a bit. However as Dave states these changes always sacrificed a bit of the clarity & detail that I liked. So as I analyzed my system I took this approach: problem was not too much Top End but rather to little Bottom End. It was more a problem of Frequency Balance, the bottom was too light lacking the Body & Weight that Dave mentions. Approaching the problem in this way led me to the Mid Bass Module that allowed me to reinforce the 50hz to 150hz range, the all important Body & Weight.

Before the Mid Bass Module I would typically set the volume knob on my Super Zen at 12 O'clock. This was just getting into the Fatigue zone on at least half of my CD's and I still lacked the quantity of Body & Weight I was looking for. After the Mid Bass Module I now set the volume at 9 to 10 O'clock and my system actually sounds much Bigger and more Powerful with absolutely no fatigue. The Mid Bass Module allowed me to adjust the Frequency Balance in my system to my room, the mains I use and my personal taste. The adjustment possibilities are what make the MBM so useful.

I was encouraged to see that Omega Loudspeaker recently released their deepOMEGA 12 Sub. Their published specs state a frequency range of 28hz to 160hz. Similarities between the Mid Bass Module and deepOMEGA include: each utilizes a lightweight 12" driver. each is down firing, each is capable of playing cleanly up into the all important 150hz mid bass range, each operate in sealed mode.

Hsu has never seen their Mid Bass Module as a Music Product, they tend to concentrate on the Home Theater application. Omega Loudspeaker however is quite the opposite, they concentrate on accurate, authoritative music reproduction. Looks like Omega also recognizes the value of reinforcing the music well up into the 150hz range according to you room, speakers & taste.

The deepOMEGA is more expensive than the Mid Bass Module but appears to be a more refined Music Specific product. I have talked to one deepOMEGA user in detail that has confirmed the deepOMEGA provides all the positive benefits I have experienced with the MBM. Anyone open to the idea of reinforcing bass in their system up to 150hz now has two choices and that is a good thing for music lovers.
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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #101 - 02/13/15 at 15:32:47
 
I'm intrigued with this deep Omega product.  I have a pair of the Omega Alinco 7xrs speakers and they are very nice...just a bit too hot with some recordings but this is easily corrected with tube rolling.  In my main system where I use HR-1s, I'm for the most part satisfied with the amount of bass I get but when it comes to rock/blues, I'm often left wanting more Bass.  The Omega might be the ticket.  I'll do some research.  So what is the frequency range of the HSU?  Mark.

PS...just looked at the site...$1500 might be more than I want to spend right now.  Where did you get the specs for the deep omega 12?  ...Duh,  it's right next to the price.  28 to 160 HZ

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/deepomega12.html

The 8 inch sub at $900 is more like it...same frequency response, lower sensitivity...

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/deepomega8.html
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« Last Edit: 02/13/15 at 15:41:43 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #102 - 02/13/15 at 16:02:53
 
Mark58,

I contacted ZLS who owns the deepOMEGA, here is a quote from ZLS on the Omega forum in response to one of my PM's with him, I don't think he would mind my sharing here:

Quote:
Hi Doug,

  The quick answer to your question is;

   Yes, you can tune the 12's anyway you wish.  

   They have the speed and the clarity that allows you to amplify that part of the frequency

range that gives "cojones" to the music.  

   It is fun to play with the 12's depending on what I am feeling like.

   The 12's with the Alnico 6's will give you clarity, tone, and oomph.

   I know it is a long way, but I would be glad to have you listen to my system.

   You can even bring your own music.  

   Please feel free to ask any questions that you may have.  


In my conversations with ZLS I am confident the deepOMEGA and Mid Bass Module perform and behave in a similar fashion You only need one positioned somewhere between the left & right mains (it does not need to be dead center). Elsewhere in this thread I note what did and did not work for me as far as set-up & placemtent.
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« Last Edit: 02/13/15 at 17:28:01 by DBC »  

Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #103 - 02/13/15 at 17:08:12
 
Thanks Doug,  the two Subs I plan on looking at are those from Omega and the least expensive one at Zu Audio (own the Souls).  I researched these in the past then put it off for some reason.  I'll keep my eyes open for used or discounts...because I'm "Penny Wise and Pound foolish".  Mark.

PS...I just checked the Zu Audio Sub..."Undertone".  It's a sealed 12 inch for 2 grand.  The frequencies covered seem a bit limited...14 to 80 Hz compared to the Omega Subs.

http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/undertone
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« Last Edit: 02/13/15 at 17:22:29 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #104 - 02/13/15 at 17:53:51
 
Mark58,

If you have read through this thread you will know that I can't stress strongly enough how important it is to be able to reinforce up into the 150hz range. This is a real sweet spot for music. It broadens the soundstage and gives a 3D weight to it's foundation. CD's that have always been a bit thin will suddenly become your favorites.

I have Hsu ULS-15" subs, the best sub for music I've had in my system. I also have the Hsu Mid Bass Modules. If I had to choose between the two, Hands Down the Mid Bass Modules have the greatest positive effect on music and by a Large Margin. Had I purchased the Mid Bass Modules first, I would have been completely happy and most likely would never have purchased the Subs.

The $500.00 Mid Bass Module sounds wonderful in my system. Others seem to feel the same way about their deepOMEGA. The deepOMEGA specifications say it will play a bit lower compared to the MBM. The deepOMEGA really caught my eye because it is designed and built by a company that cares first about music and has a great reputation.

My best advice is not to be lured by subs with big power specs and low frequency output capability. This is how I ended up with two 15" subs. These are great for HT (50hz & below), but can't match what the Mid Bass Module does for music by reinforcing the 50hz to 150hz range.



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Oppo BDP-105D, SE84CKC amp, Peachtree 220se integrated amp, Omega Super 6 Monitor mains, Twin HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass modules, Twin HSU ULS-15 subs
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