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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY" (Read 16123 times)
Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #60 - 03/27/13 at 00:29:58
 
Stone, I'm proud of you, you really went for it! And it seems to be paying off!

Like will I'm enjoying reading about these as well, and I'd never heard of them til this thread.
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will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #61 - 03/27/13 at 00:37:52
 
From DBC posts: Quote:
The MBM-12 is connected to the Super Zen via speaker level connection also operating in what HSU calls "Augmentation Mode". So the mains and MBM-12 are both reproducing the signal below 150 Hz down to around 50 Hz. ........

Per Steve Deckert's advice I use the speaker level connections so that the MBM is reproducing as close as it can the signature of the Super Zen amp. ........

So left channel for instance I run speaker level connection to the left sub and daisy chain to the left MBM.


Sorry for my ignorance, but I am confused by speaker level connection. I guess your amp has only one set of binding posts out...Are you running two wires off each speaker out post?

This is fun thread. I, like many, have spent a lot of time, money and struggle with this 150 or so down frequency range. I have it sounding exceptional now, and I am beginning with more power (Torii MkIII) and my speakers (HR-1) go low easily and well....but...you know...this thread makes me wonder.

With this room, there is no place between my speakers for an MBM, so I am thinking it may not work for me...

Stone: How is your placement exploration going?

Do you guys think it may be possible for a single unit to work outside the speakers. I sort of doubt it. When I had a Veladyne sub years ago, even it, with a lower crossover, sounded better between the speakers, though it was still good much closer to one than the other.

I am wondering if it might be worth the trial thing knowing it would have to be placed outside the main speakers.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #62 - 03/27/13 at 01:03:25
 
Lon, thanks....this MBM is fun and worth trying when you're ready. Meaning: I know you are moving to help your folks and I wish you a good move and a not so arduous set up to your new surroundings and Listening Room.

Will, I'll let DBC answer and then I'll get back about my placement.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #63 - 03/27/13 at 02:44:00
 
Will, the answer is yes, two sets of wires off of the amp left and right speaker posts. I use Kimber between the amp and Speakers. I use Cat-5 network cable between the amp and Mid Bass Module.

The Mid Bass Module has a very high input impedance which means it draws virtually no current from the amp so the small Cat-5 conductors work just fine. For a Single MBM I have used a single Cat-5 cable which has 4 twisted pair. I strip back the insulation and twist conductors together to effectively have two twisted pair (left plus & minus, right plus & minus). So basically you end up with one contained cable that carries the left and right signals and it is good for longer runs (especially when experimenting with multiple locations). I prefer the Cat-5 with solid conductors, they seem more durable.

As far as placement I have only tried it once outside the speakers. Placing the MBM in the front right corner in my room resulted in a 60-70 Hz room induced peak. This was a room issue unrelated to the MBM best I can tell. In a different room it may have been fine ???  So in all honesty I can't answer that question. I can say using a single MBM located next to my right speaker sounded good (it does not sound like the bass is weighted to the right side of the soundstage at all).

It's interesting and maybe Stone can share his thoughts here but with the MBM pretty much anywhere along my front wall I can never actually hear IT. All I hear is the improvement it adds to the overall music presentation, no audible directionality. It very well could be fine as long as it is not directly beside or behind your listening position.

In general I have found the MBM to be very forgiving as far as placement and integration into the rest of the system. Nowhere near the issues that regular subwoofers seem to always present.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7398
Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #64 - 03/27/13 at 04:12:24
 
Yeah I'm moving alright, was packing a POD today. I really don't feel I need these MBM in my current set up with the HR-1 speakers predominantly played, those have a lot of mid-bass energy and a solid lower foundation, and this room has enough volume to get some good waves going. Wondering about my next place, and also about playback levels there, and won't know for a while (and predict a lot less listening time so even if it may be "needed" it may not become a priority).
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« Last Edit: 03/27/13 at 19:45:06 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #65 - 03/27/13 at 17:41:10
 
Okay, Stone is listening to Heartfelt by Fourplay (Larry Carlton, Bob James, Nathan East & Harvey Mason).

Nathan's Bass Line on this whole Album is integrated so well without getting in the way of the Super Zen CKC's (those Jupiter Caps per your Topology=unreal Steve)....mojo Magic...... .

Period=Stone has dropped the MIC and left the building.....(back to the Listening Room).   Cheers
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will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #66 - 03/27/13 at 19:33:53
 
Yes the Jupiter caps! Amazing in my newly modded...also a way to get weight and body...Zstage. I wanted another input and the Jupiter caps and Steve did these with a ground update. My Zstage is #02.

Right off the caps sounded notably better to me than my memory of the stock caps, more information (especially in the upper mids, but throughout) and better flow without sounding too anything. Now with a few more days on them, things are getting more smooth and sweet. Though the bass is quite good, no doubt the caps will continue to get better, and as usual, become more resolving. I look forward to how they end up sounding.

Anyway "riding the gains" is back for me, and I really like this tool for adding or subtracting weight and body depending on the recording and volume.
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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will
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #67 - 03/27/13 at 20:03:56
 
Oops, I forgot to thank you for your input on MBM placement and hookup clarification DBC. I do appreciate your careful and informative observations! Looks like it could be worth a try here...A bit of a crap shoot with the room mode based on placement thing you have mentioned, and since my options are very limited, but hmmmm...I have to consider it more.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #68 - 03/27/13 at 20:46:25
 
Will,

I see you are out New Mexico way so shipping charges from CA to you would not be that bad. I would encourage you to give it a try. Get a 15 foot length of Cat-5 cable off the roll at Lowes. Hook up the MBM as suggested and with this length connection you can experiment with it around the room at various locations. Although you know it can't stay there try it in front of you somewhere between the mains for comparison also. This thing does not need to be slam up against a wall to be effective.

I have to warn you though, the Mid Bass Module is a bit like Indoor Plumbing, once you have experienced it you probably won't want to send it back.

I received a new Canned Heat CD today (Future Blues 1970) and was listening to that during lunch. My toes were tapping and head was bobbing to the rambling Blues Jam with a great bass groove. Half way through the CD I turned the Mid Bass Module and HSU 15" sealed sub OFF. WOW, what a let-down. I could still hear the bass line but it was thin and not engaging at all compared to what I was just listening to.

Next I turned the 15" sealed sub back ON (crossed over at 50 Hz). Really not much improvement, still dry. Flip the MBM back on and my toes are tapping and head is bobbing once again.

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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beowulf
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #69 - 03/27/13 at 21:45:24
 
Quote:
DBC,
Will, the answer is yes, two sets of wires off of the amp left and right speaker posts. I use Kimber between the amp and Speakers. I use Cat-5 network cable between the amp and Mid Bass Module.

The Mid Bass Module has a very high input impedance which means it draws virtually no current from the amp so the small Cat-5 conductors work just fine. For a Single MBM I have used a single Cat-5 cable which has 4 twisted pair. I strip back the insulation and twist conductors together to effectively have two twisted pair (left plus & minus, right plus & minus). So basically you end up with one contained cable that carries the left and right signals and it is good for longer runs (especially when experimenting with multiple locations). I prefer the Cat-5 with solid conductors, they seem more durable.


Hi DBC, is there any way you can snap a pic of the back of the amp of how the cables are attached?  I'm trying to picture this in my mind, but a pic would be really helpful of possible!

So are both cables (speaker and cat) screwed into the same speaker binding posts on the amp?  How are the speaker cables terminated (with spades, bananas or with just the raw cable)?
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #70 - 03/28/13 at 02:50:48
 
beowulf,

My apologies, I can see I was not clear regarding the connections and appreciate your pointing that out. I generally use bare wire connections so multiple wires connected to a binding post is not a problem. I can see that for many that is not the norm.

A little background. About 10 years ago I purchased a set of Kimber cables with banana connectors. Tried them in my system 3 or 4 times over a 2 year period and never warmed up to them. They just sounded Dark with no Sparkle on the high end. Then one day for the hell of it I removed the banana ends and installed them bare end. A completely different cable and been using them ever since. So based on that experience I generally go bare wire to eliminate the connector as a possible variable.

If you happen to use spades then you can get stackable banana connectors from Radio Shack that will accept bare ends from the Cat-5 cable:



These will plug directly into the top of the existing Decware binding post. These are the ones I use when experimenting and a lot of plugging and unplugging is required.

If you are using speaker cables with banana terminations then you should be able to attach bare end wires to the Decware binding post and it will still accept the banana connectors from your speaker cables.

For the MBM I use CAT-5 network cable simply because it is designed to carry low level electrical signals while rejecting electromagnetic noise. The MBM has a big Magnet & Coil in it. I don't have any engineering data to support that it actually works in an audio system but to my ear it sounds good on the MBM.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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beowulf
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #71 - 03/29/13 at 23:41:27
 
DBC, thanks for the clarification on the cabling.  This Mid-Bass is on my short list of component upgrades and very reasonably priced.
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #72 - 03/30/13 at 15:47:51
 
stone_of_tone wrote:

Quote:
DBC, thanks, I do have a low level faint hum at close range and I will get some Alligator Clips from R-Shack. (Using Spkr level conn too).

I love what I'm hearing from the MBM. The unit on carpet has no issues. I have it set at 150 hz and in sealed mode just a line under half volume for my room. I have it 5 feet out from the right corner wall-along the wall far enough away from me not to cause localization.  


Stone, just wondering how your system is coming along?

Thought I would mention that in my room with two Mid Bass Modules I have the volume knob set 2 lines above half volume on each. Initially I could not set the volume above half or else it would start to get a little boomy on some music but not other. Music that went really low could get boomy.

For anyone following this thread, the Mid Bass Module volume knob has 20 lines etched into it. So adjusting the knob setting up or down by one line is not much in terms of knob rotation but has quite an effect on the perceived MBM output from my experience.

When I upgraded to the CKC I was able to increase the MBM volume to 1 line past half volume due to it's improved low frequency resolution. Later after improving the MBM ground the volume was increased to 2 lines past half volume. I should mention that each time I was able to increase the volume setting the bass did not really get louder, just cleaner.

Now I can listen to all types of music with no tendency to get boomy. If I turn the MBM volume up to 3 lines past half volume it does not get boomy, rather just sounds like there is too much bass. To me this is an indication that the MBM frequency response is now reasonably flat in my room.

My point here is if you sense a boomy tendency on some music material but not other with a given MBM volume setting then you could potentially have an issue with:

Source component low frequency resolution is lacking.

Amp low frequency resolution should not be an issue since we both have the CKC.

Room induced low frequency peak due to MBM placement.

Low frequency peak created by 60 Hz AC hum due to ground.

Stone, another point. I was concerned about wiring between the amp and MBM. If you run these wires close to power cables they may pick up induced AC noise, also the MBM is not magnetically shielded. That is why I went with CAT-5 computer cable.

Although I was impressed with the MBM performance out of the box, it took months before I realized some of these little issues existed in my system. They were subtle but addressing them made a difference.
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« Last Edit: 03/30/13 at 15:50:23 by DBC »  

Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #73 - 04/01/13 at 15:15:02
 
Thanks for the pointers and adjustments DBC. As I spend more time with the MBM....I will get things fleshed out.

I could not resist moving the MBM to my HT Rig and placing it as suggested by HSU, behind my couch where I sit. It has been a fun weekend having it back there!

I have my RF-7 II's coming on Wednesday or Thursday. I find out from the Trucking Co. today...!  They ship on a Palet...as yours probably did too....for safe arrival/keeping.
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« Last Edit: 04/01/13 at 15:20:22 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #74 - 04/05/13 at 17:26:49
 
Klipsch RF-7 II's are in the House (bedroom System)/since Wednesday. Man, these Spks were something to schleep in by myself from the garage unpacking. I am home today, so I have about 20 hours on them since Wednesday night.

My MBM 12 is out in the 2.1CH HT setup. I am liking it very much in this capacity placed behind the couch with the regular Sub up between the mains. Movies, Vinyl, Sat. Radio and LIVE at Daryl's HOUSE from Palladia are awesome. I did not care for the MBM in my Listening Room System. I prefer the purity of the SuperZen CKC in that; my Reference System.

Back to the Klipsch RF-7 II's: I purchased a pair for $1780.00 delivered factory brand new B Stock (I found one little scratch that rendered it B Stock). Audio Design out of Las Vegas/Factory Auth. Dealer/Mike Embers...I highly recommend. I received great service and a great product shipped timely via R & L Carriers on a skid/pallet.

I had to work my Alchemy on the best mix of Equip & Cables...I ended up running my Kimber Hero IC with the Zen Styx...also with my (2nd) AA DTI Pro, then into my Cambridge DAC Magic. The DTI Pro takes this DAC to another level...and is still signifcant today.

Anyway, the RF-7 II's blow the ZU Unions away. The Zu's came with 500 hours burn in and I only have 20 hours on the Klipsch. The Zu's could not get the upper treble right for me. I guess it is right to say for some of us....."I have never found a 10" full range driver with a whizzer cone I've liked".....even one crossed over at 12K. YMMV

Any designer including Steve will tell you....one System can't do it all....SO I have 4 System's.  
I have the subtle Tone/Texture and layering musicality in my Listening Room Reference System.
I have the brute force and extra loudness when called upon with the RF-7 II's. ....yes, I have already freaked out my neighbor with just 2 watts running the RF-7 II's.

Cheers, Stone of Tone


Listening Room System (12 x 14 room):

Sony as Transport>Illuminati D-60/BNC>Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro32(SET IN 20 BIT DITHER)>Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference i2s>Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 w/remote wand>Kimber Select 1030>Decware SuperZen CKC Amp>Kimber Select 3033> Polk LS 90....Room Acoustically treated/Dedicated Room & Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer // Herbie's Halo's on all Tubes & 2.5lb Mapleshade Brass weight on top of CKC Transformer // XLO Pro Power Cord to SuperZen//Tip Toe Cone Feet with Vibrapods underneath LS-90's in Tri-configuration//8 pound sq. covered dumbell on each Speaker


2 Channel Home Theater (w/Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers):
(DVD, Blu-ray disc, CD, Vinyl, HDTV & Sirius Sat Radio via Dish Network)

Panasonic Blu-ray>Kimber Silver Streak IC>Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp>Kimber Timbre IC>Emotiva XPA-2/(300 watts per CH into 8 ohms)>Kimber 8TC Speaker Cable>Polk SDA SRS 1.2/(use SDA always)>Kimber PK10 Palladian Power Cord to Emotiva XPA-2

Dish Network/HD DVR with Kimber KCAG IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....
Sharp 46' Aquos Quattron HDTV/extra thread of Yellow (2nd only to the Pioneer Kuro)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Red Plinth) to Pro-Ject Phono Box II with Audio Quest Diamondback IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....

HSU Research MBM 12 wired with 14 guage to Spkr level conn.
Velodyne Subwoofer wired with Kimber 8TC out of Emotiva XPA-2


Bedroom System:
Pioneer DV-563A...Illuminati D-60...Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro (SET IN 20 BIT DITHER)...Stereovox XV2.....Cambridge Audio DacMagic...Kimber Hero IC...Decware SE84CS (stock)...Zen Styx w/Silver plugs...Klipsch RF-7 II

Garage System:
IPAD2...to Classic Rotel Receiver...Parker Audio Crusader's
B Speaker connections has Dayton Audio all weather Spkrs on back Patio
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« Last Edit: 04/05/13 at 18:07:53 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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