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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY" (Read 19604 times)
DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #30 - 02/17/13 at 15:49:20
 
Surfing around I found this Interactive Frequency Chart that graphically depicts how many musical instruments fall within the 50 to 150 Hz range of the HSU Mid Bass Module.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

If you place your cursor on each instrument shown on the bar chart it will display where that instrument falls on the Ear Sensitivity Chart to the right. I thought it was interesting how much cello, guitar and other instruments fall into the 50 to 150 Hz range where the ear is less sensitive, especially at normal or lower listening levels.

The other night I watched the Nirvana MTV Unplugged DVD at a moderate listening level. It was the first time I had clearly heard the young lady playing the cello. It was great and really added to the overall presentation.

My old Zen Select just never had the low end resolution as my new CKC does. Without the MBM on the cello is barely audible. With the MBM on it is clearly audible and distinct from the other instruments.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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4krow
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #31 - 02/17/13 at 17:54:00
 
I find that to be a really good point.  Low volume leaves out some information.    
    On another related note, if I remember correctly, harmonics go both ways. So if there are harmonics from say a cello that reach beyond it's scale, then the obverse is true. And harmonics are weaker signal than the original.
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Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/BESL subs/Emotiva ERC3 CD player/BPT 3.0 power cond. PS Audio P500
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #32 - 02/20/13 at 15:16:10
 
DBC,

How do you have the mid-bass units hooked up?  Line level? Speaker level? Do you have to bridge two channels together on each unit when using two?
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #33 - 02/20/13 at 17:18:33
 
Hi Lon,

Been meaning to post but been too busy listening or working. I've actually been getting up an hour early each morning just so I can listen for a bit. The Super Zen and Mid Bass Module combination have provided an audible window into what is really happening in the lower frequencies. This has allowed me to tweak the system some and actually hear the improvements.

Last week I changed to a different equipment rack I had on hand in an attempt to improve vibration control. In the process I found that my two sets of Decware 1/2 meter interconnects I had been using were a tad tight so I went to a couple 1 meter pair of pure silver interconnects I have had for a long time.

It was interesting, when I powered back up and started listening my first impression was the low end was just a tad thinner. After listening for a while it was apparent that the low end was not thinner but more accurate with more clarity. Kick drum and Bass Guitar notes for instance seemed to have more space between them. Less tendency to bleed together.

Now to your question. Per Steve Deckert's advice I use the speaker level connections so that the MBM is reproducing as close as it can the signature of the Super Zen amp. I'm actually using common Cat-5 computer network cable purchased from Lowe's. I know, does not sound very Hi-Tek but it sounds good. The cable has four twisted pair, each individual conductor is solid copper (not stranded). I always use bare wire speaker level connections at the amp, mains, and MBM. The solid copper conductors hold up better than the very fine stranded type.

I twisted two of the pair together for the POSITIVE and the other two pair for the NEGATIVE.  So basically I have one Cat-5 cable for the left channel and one Cat-5 cable for the right channel. I have a pair of MBM's so I run them in Stereo, left channel only to left MBM, right channel only to right MBM.

I have experimented with just one MBM where I run both speaker level channels into a single MBM and the single unit performs very well in my room. The MBM has speaker level input connectors for both left and right channels. It did seem when I switched back to dual MBM's (Stereo) that low end clarity was improved a bit but it was not a night and day difference. I have implemented a few other small system tweaks since then that might account for the difference at that time ??

I did have a small ground loop issue. I run dual MBM's and ULS-15 subs in stereo mode. So left channel for instance I run speaker level connection to the left sub and daisy chain to the left MBM. Seems the MBM's would interact with the sub it was mated to. I simply ran a Radio Shack test lead with alligator clips on each end from one of the steel toggle switches on the MBM to one of the toggle switches on the ULS-15 sub to give them a common ground.

I talked to Dr. Hsu about the ground loop. Basically they expect anyone not living in a cave these days will use the line level connection. I think they expect the ground on the line level interconnect to tie all the grounds back to the amp ??

After I got my Super Zen I could just barely hear a very low level hum with the MBM's turned ON. I had to be right up next to the mains to hear this. Not audible at the listening position or with the MBM's turned OFF. I tied the the ground jumpers installed between each MBM and sub back to the case of my surge protection device where everything is plugged into. Bam, everything was dead quiet and it made a noticeable improvement in low frequency playback. Again just seemed to be a little more separation and space between instruments on the low end.

It seems if you have any type of low level distortion from your source, pre or amp the MBM is going to make that audible. In my case that has been a good thing since I have been able to identify (hear) and address these things.

The biggest advantage of the MBM is that you achieve big, full, spacious, satisfying sound at low to moderate volumes. I've been trying for 20 years to achieve this type of sound in a listening room with subwoofers and have had limited luck at best. The MBM is not a subwoofer.

I've come to appreciate that subwoofers are more of a Sledge Hammer. They are designed to reproduce frequencies that you feel more than you hear. The MBM is more of Hammer, much more nimble, more subtle.




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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #34 - 02/20/13 at 17:48:17
 
Link to a short MBM review from a professional, You have to scroll down quite a ways to find it.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue34/awards2.htm
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #35 - 02/20/13 at 18:04:05
 
Thanks for that info! I think if I were to use these I'd use the line level inputs from the CSP2+ . . . I will even have one of those with an extra stereo out put which would work for two or one. I like the signature of the CSP2+ so much that thanks to Bill selling one here I bought another to use with my SACD player which doesn't sound quite as good just straight into the Torii Mk III. For me the ideal preamp is a CSP2+ with three or four inputs. . . .

Anyway, your experience is really informative and I have no doubt that you are enjoying excellent sound. I'm moving to a townhome in OHio soon and will have a few neighbors; I've been living in a house with some space between neighbors for twenty plus years. I may need to listen at lower volumes, and your experience shows these HSU units can be a big benefit.
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« Last Edit: 02/20/13 at 18:36:55 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #36 - 02/20/13 at 19:59:32
 
Lon,

I've been following this forum for over 12 years now (since I purchased my original Zen Select). As you know I don't post much, I come here primarily to see what I can learn from folks like you. Thanks to everyone who frequents here and shares.

There are not many Mid Bass Module online user reviews to be found. The few I have managed to find have all been very positive. I know I was slow to try one myself because of all the difficulty I have experienced over the years trying to integrate a subwoofer into my music system.

Best advice I can give when it comes to the HSU Mid Bass Module:

1) Just forget everything you know or think you know about subwoofers.

2) The Mid Bass Module is not a subwoofer therefore refer to rule #1.

I hope you have a chance to try one some time. My guess is it would sound great on your CSP+ line level outputs. I have an older CSP and do not have that option.

I wish Steve would make the CSP+ available in the same black metal chassis as the Super Zen, I would probably upgrade that also. Call me crazy but I just like the Old School 50's style of the metal chassis.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #37 - 02/20/13 at 20:14:20
 
Another thought: I really like the simplicity of the HSU products. None of the "Digital Signal Processing", "Servo Control", "Parametric Equalization" or any of that other CRAP that I have tried with only limited success at best.

Who would have Thunk It, simple amp, driver and enclosure that does exactly what they say it will do.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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Lon
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #38 - 02/20/13 at 20:15:01
 
Well, I've never liked systems I've heard with subwoofers, admiittedly they were dvd based not music, but I just never bothered to learn about them in two channel use although there were years when I could have used them and would have really enjoyed them I bet.

These modules attract me because a) they're NOT subwoofers and b) they address a frequency band that really can be anemic in some rooms especially at low to medium volume and d) YOUR information and assessment of them in a Decware system and how well you've explained them and described the system as a whole.

I trust YOU and your ears more than many online reviewers I might find. They seem to be a really interesting and innovative product, which as you know Decware people know how to identify and enjoy. Smiley

As for the CSP2. . . My CSP2 now in use in my bedroom system I asked Steve to build in the black chassis to match my then in use SE34 Monoblocks in the same Decwware chassis. It's a 2 and not a 2+ so no mono output or other outputs besides the main stereo one, and I had him make it without the headphone jack because I just don't do headphones--Steve said it would sound a bit better without the jack. So I know that it's POSSIBLE to get a 2 in that chassis. Now a 2+ . . . . probably would be more difficult, but you know Steve, the more difficult just takes an epiphany. Wink

Anyway, the HSU modules are very intriguing and I appreciate you bringing this exposure to them. I may just have to try them out myself in the future.
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« Last Edit: 02/20/13 at 20:20:08 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #39 - 02/20/13 at 21:08:25
 
Pale Rider,

Thanks for turning me on to Paul McGowan's daily discussions over at PS Audio. I thought this kind of fit into the topic being discussed on this thread and should be shared:

http://www.pstracks.com/pauls-posts/loudness-button/9651/

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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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DBC
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Posts: 139
Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #40 - 02/28/13 at 16:41:41
 
Just as my Zen Select and Klipsch RF-7s were a lens into the mid and upper frequencies 12 years ago, The Super Zen with HSU Mid Bass Modules have been an equally impressive lens into the lower frequencies. The Zen Select just sounds muddy in the low end by comparison.

With the new combination I have been able to hear step by step improvements as I solve minor grounding issues, address vibration and experiment with cables. I have to say I just did not think this type of bass clarity was possible in a 15'x21' listening space.

All those Hendrix, Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, etc. CD's that always sounded a bit thin on the bottom end have new life. It's amazing how much subtle bass guitar is on all this material. With the accuracy & clarity of the Super Zen the MBM's have the power and speed to reproduce drums and bass guitar so that they are distinct and separate (no mud, no boom).

Last night I listened to the same Doors CD 3 times back to back. Just seems to have so much more pace, rhythm and body ???? I'm at a point where I can just set the volume at a moderate level and listen all day long. Don't feel like I have to tweak amp volume, MBM volume or anything on different songs. It's great when an upgrade like this comes along and suddenly your entire CD collection is a completely new experience.
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Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CKC amp, Klipsch RF-7 mains, HSU MBM-12 MK2 mid bass module, HSU ULS-15 sub
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #41 - 03/15/13 at 18:15:52
 
Well put DBC, like you, I have been part of this Foum for 12 years with the purchase of my Zen Select SE84CS in May of 2001. I don't post that much either and I learn things from Poster's like Lon, whom I very much appreciate on this Forum.

Now, I'm learing from you. I am ordering a MBM soon as I finish this post! Furthermore, I have a pair of Klipsch RF 52 II coming on Monday from Crutchfield. $448.98 delivered....can't complain. I have bought them for my bedroom system. However, after a long breakin...I think they will make it in for an audition in the Listening Room System.

Anyway, back to the MBM....RF 52's come Monday and the MBM by the end of next week and I'll return with some early thoughts.

I will use the MBM-12 MK2 in my Listening Room System first...and then out with the Polk 1.2 bohemoths...then with the Bedroom System....burned in RF 52 II's down the road.

I will be purchasing just one (1) MBM...I do realize you have two. I will run 14 gauge wire to them from Super Zen CKC Speaker connections to Speaker connections of MBM....placing the MBM near me/Listening Chair.




Listening Room System (12 x 14 room):

Ipad2 with Apple LossLess/CD Error correction>Cambridge Audio iD100 Docking Station >Illuminati D-60/BNC>Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro32>Prophecy Cryo-Silver Reference i2s>Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 w/remote wand>Kimber Select 1030>Decware SuperZen CKC Amp>Kimber Select 3033> Polk LS 90....Room Acoustically treated/Dedicated Room & Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer // Herbie's Halo's on all Tubes & 2.5lb Mapleshade Brass weight on top of CKC Transformer // XLO Pro Power Cord to SuperZen




2 Channel Home Theater (w/Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers):
(DVD, Blu-ray disc, CD, Vinyl, HDTV & Sirius Sat Radio via Dish Network)

Panasonic Blu-ray>Kimber Hero IC>Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp>Kimber Timbre IC>Emotiva XPA-2/(300 watts per CH into 8 ohms)>Kimber 8TC Speaker Cable>Polk SDA SRS 1.2/(use SDA always)>Kimber PK10 Palladian Power Cord to Emotiva XPA-2

Dish Network/HD DVR with Kimber KCAG IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....
Sharp 46' Aquos Quattron HDTV/extra thread of Yellow (2nd only to the Pioneer Kuro)

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Red Plinth) to Pro-Ject Phono Box II with Audio Quest Diamondback IC to Rotel RA-1062/Pre-Amp.....

Velodyne Subwoofer wired with Kimber 8TC out of Emotiva XPA-2
Soon to be replaced by: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html .....(fall of 2013 purchase)




Bedroom System:
Pioneer DV-563A...Illuminati D-60...Cambridge Audio DacMagic...Kimber Silver Streak...Decware SE84CS (stock)...Zen Styx w/Silver plugs...Klipsch RF 52 II








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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 18:49:58 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #42 - 03/15/13 at 18:30:52
 
awesome news Stone! I'm looking forward to your impressions.
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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 20:28:39 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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JD
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #43 - 03/15/13 at 19:08:53
 
Stone, I'm pretty sure you will love those Klipsch.  I gave my brother my old (1 yr. ) pair of rb81's to help out in his system.  I loved them...great bang for the buck and Crutchfield is a great co. to buy from.

JD
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stone_of_tone
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #44 - 03/15/13 at 19:38:42
 
JD, yes, I do look forward to getting the 52's.

It's done....I ordered the MBM....should have by next Thursday or Friday.  Lon, I will post some immediate impressions next weekend.
-Stone

....you all have a great Music Weekend! I'm off to a Fish Fry and some Ice Cold Summit EPA>.......!
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« Last Edit: 03/15/13 at 19:39:37 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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