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"ADDING WEIGHT & BODY" (Read 30533 times)
DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #100 - 02/13/15 at 14:20:51
 
Quote:
Dave 1210 wrote regarding a software update for his DAC:

I went back to 1.21 last night and the listening fatigue went away.  That said, so did a lot of the detail (and the soundstage benefits I mentioned).  I never felt that I was missing detail with this DAC, until now.  It's amazing that this magnitude of change can be had with a firmware update, but I suppose that's the beauty of the FPGA.  

The ribbon's in my 944's offer great detail in the highs, but with this new firmware, it is too much for me.  That said, I will go back to Pikes Peak and see if I can get used to it.  I do hope that they dial back in a slight amount of body and weight though.  But usually once they start down a path with these firmware updates they tend to stick with it.  



I was in the same boat at one point with regard to listening fatigue. First question: why do we turn the volume up to the point where we start to experience fatigue (what are we looking for at the higher volume)? Second question: why when we turn the volume down (to eliminate the fatigue) are we left unsatisfied? Dave answers the question, I would argue we tend to turn the volume up to the Fatigue Point looking for the Weight & Body in the music. We get the Weight & Body but also get the Fatigue. If we turn the volume down below the Fatigue Point, we loose the all important Weight & Body.

I was in the same pickle using different tubes, cables etc. to tame the top a bit. However as Dave states these changes always sacrificed a bit of the clarity & detail that I liked. So as I analyzed my system I took this approach: problem was not too much Top End but rather to little Bottom End. It was more a problem of Frequency Balance, the bottom was too light lacking the Body & Weight that Dave mentions. Approaching the problem in this way led me to the Mid Bass Module that allowed me to reinforce the 50hz to 150hz range, the all important Body & Weight.

Before the Mid Bass Module I would typically set the volume knob on my Super Zen at 12 O'clock. This was just getting into the Fatigue zone on at least half of my CD's and I still lacked the quantity of Body & Weight I was looking for. After the Mid Bass Module I now set the volume at 9 to 10 O'clock and my system actually sounds much Bigger and more Powerful with absolutely no fatigue. The Mid Bass Module allowed me to adjust the Frequency Balance in my system to my room, the mains I use and my personal taste. The adjustment possibilities are what make the MBM so useful.

I was encouraged to see that Omega Loudspeaker recently released their deepOMEGA 12 Sub. Their published specs state a frequency range of 28hz to 160hz. Similarities between the Mid Bass Module and deepOMEGA include: each utilizes a lightweight 12" driver. each is down firing, each is capable of playing cleanly up into the all important 150hz mid bass range, each operate in sealed mode.

Hsu has never seen their Mid Bass Module as a Music Product, they tend to concentrate on the Home Theater application. Omega Loudspeaker however is quite the opposite, they concentrate on accurate, authoritative music reproduction. Looks like Omega also recognizes the value of reinforcing the music well up into the 150hz range according to you room, speakers & taste.

The deepOMEGA is more expensive than the Mid Bass Module but appears to be a more refined Music Specific product. I have talked to one deepOMEGA user in detail that has confirmed the deepOMEGA provides all the positive benefits I have experienced with the MBM. Anyone open to the idea of reinforcing bass in their system up to 150hz now has two choices and that is a good thing for music lovers.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #101 - 02/13/15 at 15:32:47
 
I'm intrigued with this deep Omega product.  I have a pair of the Omega Alinco 7xrs speakers and they are very nice...just a bit too hot with some recordings but this is easily corrected with tube rolling.  In my main system where I use HR-1s, I'm for the most part satisfied with the amount of bass I get but when it comes to rock/blues, I'm often left wanting more Bass.  The Omega might be the ticket.  I'll do some research.  So what is the frequency range of the HSU?  Mark.

PS...just looked at the site...$1500 might be more than I want to spend right now.  Where did you get the specs for the deep omega 12?  ...Duh,  it's right next to the price.  28 to 160 HZ

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/deepomega12.html

The 8 inch sub at $900 is more like it...same frequency response, lower sensitivity...

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/deepomega8.html
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #102 - 02/13/15 at 16:02:53
 
Mark58,

I contacted ZLS who owns the deepOMEGA, here is a quote from ZLS on the Omega forum in response to one of my PM's with him, I don't think he would mind my sharing here:

Quote:
Hi Doug,

  The quick answer to your question is;

   Yes, you can tune the 12's anyway you wish.  

   They have the speed and the clarity that allows you to amplify that part of the frequency

range that gives "cojones" to the music.  

   It is fun to play with the 12's depending on what I am feeling like.

   The 12's with the Alnico 6's will give you clarity, tone, and oomph.

   I know it is a long way, but I would be glad to have you listen to my system.

   You can even bring your own music.  

   Please feel free to ask any questions that you may have.  


In my conversations with ZLS I am confident the deepOMEGA and Mid Bass Module perform and behave in a similar fashion You only need one positioned somewhere between the left & right mains (it does not need to be dead center). Elsewhere in this thread I note what did and did not work for me as far as set-up & placemtent.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #103 - 02/13/15 at 17:08:12
 
Thanks Doug,  the two Subs I plan on looking at are those from Omega and the least expensive one at Zu Audio (own the Souls).  I researched these in the past then put it off for some reason.  I'll keep my eyes open for used or discounts...because I'm "Penny Wise and Pound foolish".  Mark.

PS...I just checked the Zu Audio Sub..."Undertone".  It's a sealed 12 inch for 2 grand.  The frequencies covered seem a bit limited...14 to 80 Hz compared to the Omega Subs.

http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/undertone
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #104 - 02/13/15 at 17:53:51
 
Mark58,

If you have read through this thread you will know that I can't stress strongly enough how important it is to be able to reinforce up into the 150hz range. This is a real sweet spot for music. It broadens the soundstage and gives a 3D weight to it's foundation. CD's that have always been a bit thin will suddenly become your favorites.

I have Hsu ULS-15" subs, the best sub for music I've had in my system. I also have the Hsu Mid Bass Modules. If I had to choose between the two, Hands Down the Mid Bass Modules have the greatest positive effect on music and by a Large Margin. Had I purchased the Mid Bass Modules first, I would have been completely happy and most likely would never have purchased the Subs.

The $500.00 Mid Bass Module sounds wonderful in my system. Others seem to feel the same way about their deepOMEGA. The deepOMEGA specifications say it will play a bit lower compared to the MBM. The deepOMEGA really caught my eye because it is designed and built by a company that cares first about music and has a great reputation.

My best advice is not to be lured by subs with big power specs and low frequency output capability. This is how I ended up with two 15" subs. These are great for HT (50hz & below), but can't match what the Mid Bass Module does for music by reinforcing the 50hz to 150hz range.



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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #105 - 02/13/15 at 18:10:56
 
Doug, I'm sold.  And yes, I read your posts on the HSU Mid Bass Module as you were writing them.  I just finished reading all the posts on the deep Omega on the Omega thread.  Sounds like I should save my pennies and go for the Big Boy at $1500. Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #106 - 02/13/15 at 18:39:45
 
Mark58,

I suggest you PM ZLS over on the Omega forum.

First ask him how tough was it to fork out the money for his 2 deepOMEGA 12's having never heard them?

Second ask him now that he has had them for a while how would he rate the sound quality of his system with the deepOMEGA's active (ON) and with the deepOMEGA's inactive (OFF)?

Third ask him if this purchase exceeded his expectations in both value and performance?

My guess is the $1,500 for one might not seem quite as bad based on his responses. ZLS has two because he can afford them. My experience with the MBM is that one is all that is really needed to reap great benefits.

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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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maddog07
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #107 - 02/13/15 at 18:43:32
 
gentle dudes.... as a convert to single, full-range, high-efficiency, crossoverless speakers for about 2 years now... let me share another revelation with you all, whom are looking for a way to add bass weight to your system.  RandyinCaintuck on this forum... enlightened me.... Hawthorne Audio Augie's - open baffle bass drivers.... Yes... "open baffle" drivers can and do produce bass - best I've ever heard.  I have two Velo digital drive subs, and I prefer the Hawthorne Augie's.  If you have not heard boxless bass, completely uncolored by any kind of enclosure resonances... you haven't heard HQ bass yet.  And to top it off... the Augie's are inexpensive, don't need anything but a piece of plywood for a mounting baffle, and you can get any inexpensive SMPS, class D plate amp to drive them... Or use that old class A/B sand amp you have sitting in the closet, that you never got rid of, after converting to glowing glass goodness....
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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mark58
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #108 - 02/13/15 at 19:16:14
 
I may do that, Doug, but not today.  Does he have the Deep Hemps or the newer  deep Omega 12s?  How long have the 12s been out?  Reading more posts on Omega subs...the hemps, I think, it was said the smaller ones were punchier.  I would assume that's a good trait for Rock/Blues?  But the bigger ones must be beefier...No? Otherwise why would you shell out the extra 600 bucks?  I may be a little confused...which are faster...the 8 inch or 12 inch?  It would seem faster would integrate best.

Will,  sorry to hear of your Jolida 100 experience.  Were both new?  I have  both the Black face and Silver face versions, both purchased used, both have performed flawlessly...just lucky, I guess.

Maddog,  sounds interesting but I'm not a DIYer and my Listening Cave is 11 ft by 11 ft.  Mark.

PS...I just got a notice that Elusive Disc has a 10% discount for President's Day as does Sound Stage Direct...Music Direct probably will later.  Looks like I'll be buying some more audiophile Vinyl this weekend.

PSS...I answered my own questions.  The Deep omega 12s were released September 2014 and ZLS has a pair of them. Paired with  Omega 4 1/2 jnch full range speakers.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #109 - 02/13/15 at 19:33:17
 
maddog07,

I've read your posts with great interest and have no doubt the Augie's are everything you say they are, and would love to hear them. Problem is I don't build speakers (no time so no interest in building).

Originally I purchased a pair of Hsu ULS-15 subs (15" sealed) and of all the conventional subs I have had in my listening room these are by far the most musical. They sounded great with a crossover of 60hz but anything higher and they started to get just a tad Boomy.

So this got me interested in the Hsu Mid Bass Module which utilizes a very light 12" driver to play cleanly up into the 150hz range. Once I integrated the MBM into my system it was clear that in my system & my room reinforcing from 50 to 150hz was of much greater benefit (to my ear) than reinforcing below 50hz. If you can do both then great.

Just curious where you find the best crossover setting for the Augie's in your room, your system and to suit your personal taste?

Thanks for adding to the conversation.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #110 - 02/13/15 at 19:50:48
 
Mark58,

I was confused at first also with regard to the deepOMEGA. Looks to me like Omega went through a series of developmental stages to get to the deepOMEGA that was released last fall. They had a Micron, deephemp Cube and speed12 before the deepOMEGA. Louis at Omega is always working on something new.

I think (Hope) the deepOMEGA will represent a stabilization of that design/development process. Based on my experience with the MBM I would think the deepOMEGA 8 would be great for smallish rooms and office type settings. The deepOMEGA 12 handles larger rooms and for very large rooms a pair of 12's would be my guess.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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maddog07
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #111 - 02/13/15 at 23:58:44
 
DBC.... I could write you a novel about how I got to where I am.  But.... to summarize.  I have had the HSU ULS-15 in my room... great sub.  If they would have had a remote control I would have had them instead of the Velo's.  I wanted remote control of the volume for reasons I will elaborate on below.
I have seen and heard the HSU mid bass modules in HSU's room at RMAF... I considered them at one time because what most people don't realize is that they are lacking/desiring mid-bass weight not "sub" bass. I think this is a Dick Olsher, or somebody like thats philosophy.  Because our hearing sensitivity to bass decreases with volume, (Fletcher-Munson curve) most of us, especially when listening at lower volumes, don't think we have enough bass.  Or that the "balance" of the sound is off, too lean, not enough bass weight, so we think we need a sub.  What we really need is a good, transparent "loudness" control - Fletcher-Munson again.  The Velo's provided me with remote control of the bass volume and the low pass xover point and some other param's.  So, when the overall music volume was low, turn up the bass to get the "weight" that makes the music sound "right".  

Augie's... xover point... typically 60ish hz. With my full rangers, which BTW are Audio Nirvana's.  My room is far from typical.  My man cave is truly a "cave".... it's the entire lower level of our house, a 2400 sq.ft. walkout basement.. timber walls on 3 sides, concrete on one, concrete floor, 9 ft. ceilings.  There are walls, corner, etc. but basically the whole area is open.  It's the deadest room I've ever had.  Too dead to be honest, no detectable slap-echo at all.
I first sought out some "bass units" before I ever got my DIY full-rangers completed.  Everything I ever read, or have read to this date... told me that my full-rangers would have NO bass.  Well folks, I'm living, breathing proof, this is simply not so.  I put my Audio Nirvana 12 inch Alnico's into 5.6 cu.ft. reflex boxes, ported as recommended by Dave Dicks(Audio Nirvana owner)... and when I first fired them up, I thought OMG, how am I going to tone down the bass.  They were way to "heavy" sounding.  Good thing however, they quickly livened up and too much bass was no longer an issue.  I have been using these speaks most of the time now, for going on 2 years, despite owning 6 other pairs of speakers - these are my favorite when paired with my Torii Mk.3/Jupiters.
So... now I had these Hawthorne Augie's already purchased - what to do?  I built a pair of custom Hawthorne Trio's.  Two 15 inch Augie drivers per open baffle speaker panel - Four 15's total.  I have never, ever, at any price heard this quality of bass in any home stereo system.  And believe me, "quantity" is not an issue.  What is most intoxicating, is that they produce "tactile" bass even at low volumes... bass you can feel and that produces that sense of "pressure" that you don't really "hear" and they do it at low volumes.  Could not live without it after having it.
I have the Hawthorne std. coaxial units also for the Trio's, but am not overly enthusiastic about them.  But they can be disconnected, and I can use just the Augie's as additional bass units for my Audio Nirvana's in a box.  
Recently I acquired some 15" Audio Nirvana full-rangers to replace the hawthorne coaxial units... and then I will have a full range open baffle pair of speakers to play with.
DIY is not much of an issue with the Hawthorne Augie's... you can buy the baffle kit from Hawthorne to mount the Augie's in.. no cutting required, just screw everything together and get yourself a plate-amp... and you're in business.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #112 - 02/14/15 at 00:25:03
 
maddog07

Just curious if you have the amps powering your Augie's connected via speaker level connections or are using line level (interconnects). I've always connected my Sub and Mid Bass Module via speaker level with my Super Zen.

I purchased a Peachtree 220se solid state amp with pre-outs recently. I've listened to the Peachtree with Sub & MBM connected via speaker level and line level (interconnects). The speaker level connection sounds much better to my ear (better bass integration). With line level connections the bass was very "Sterile" for a lack of a better word.

Have you tried both connection methods? Any thoughts?
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #113 - 02/14/15 at 04:41:03
 
DBC....

absolutely I've tried line-level & speaker-level signals to drive subs.  I, like you, have found the speaker-level method to provide a more synergistic, better integrated, more seamless bass from the sub.  The one exception to this that I currently have, is in our HT, where I'm driving the sub with line-level from the LFE of a pre/pro by necessity.  I was never satisfied with the quality of the bass or it's integration in the HT room.... until we had a reorg of that room and two things changed:
1) I was able to place the sub at the front of the room in the same plane with the front L/R/C speakers, and
2) I went to a sealed sub.  Sealed subs are just plain ole easier to integrate in my experience.

I'm sure the more advance pre/pro I got about the same time with room-correction software built-in helped too.

I've tried line-level in the 2-ch man-cave rig, but speaker-level just sounds better to my ears... most of the time, up until recently - read on.

Remember that part about "remote control" of the bass... to compensate for the loudness effect at low volumes. Or even recording to recording.  Well... a plate amp has volume controls.  But that would require me to get out of my chair.  I run my full-rangers "full range" with as pure a signal path as I can achieve.  But the Augie's have to be low passed.  I use an external electronic crossover for this.  Since I got tubular a few years ago, my sand amps were sitting around collecting dust.  I use a spare Class D Audio sds-470c to drive the four Augie's.  My crossover has input attenuators and output gain controls and the 470c has input attenuator's also.  But again, I would have to get out of my chair to "tweak" the bass.  Well... I just happened to have a really transparent SS preamp sitting around unused, also from my previous SS days.  Guess what it's being used for now?
Obviously this is all taking place with line-level signals.  But for whatever reason, with these OB bass drivers and perhaps other factors, the bass integration is completely seamless.  In fact it's so well integrated most people can't tell which source the sound is emanating from.  I get a kick out of watching friends, when first exposed to my current system, try to "walk to" the source of the sound.  They typically go toward the Trio's first, as they are the largest and most visible at around 5ft tall and 22" wide.  And because of the quality and quantity of bass, they are assuming "big".  But after they get in front of a Trio and run their head up and down the baffle and can't hear the mids and highs, they then gravitate to the boxed full rangers sitting to the insides of the Trio's.  Again, they tend to be a little baffled, because the bass sounds like its coming from them now.  It's about this time, when I get the puzzled looks and the questions start.  And when you get to the normal listening distance, which is about 10-11 feet, none of the speakers appear to be the source of the sound.  Completely holographic, wall to wall sound that all seems to start about 5-6 ft behind the speakers.  Which, ironically or not, 5-6ft is about how far from the front wall the speakers are positioned.  I need to pull them out from the front wall even further and see what that does... so many things to try and experiment with - so little time!!!!  Isn't this a great hobby?  I have never been happier with my system since I found Decware, full-range crossoverless speakers, and now OB bass.  I'm just not sure how much better it can get at this point.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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beowulf
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #114 - 02/14/15 at 08:51:11
 
mark58 wrote on 02/13/15 at 19:16:14:
I may do that, Doug, but not today.  Does he have the Deep Hemps or the newer  deep Omega 12s?  How long have the 12s been out?  Reading more posts on Omega subs...the hemps, I think, it was said the smaller ones were punchier.  I would assume that's a good trait for Rock/Blues?  But the bigger ones must be beefier...No? Otherwise why would you shell out the extra 600 bucks?  I may be a little confused...which are faster...the 8 inch or 12 inch?  It would seem faster would integrate best.


I read on the Omega forums, can't quite remember the thread but Louis stated that the 12" has a much shorter throw than the 8", thus the 12" starts and stops much quicker than the 8" and works only half as hard.  It's my guess that the 12" will distort less and should be much faster than the 8".  I think the 8" is pretty good and would integrate nicely, but more entry level and there as an option for people with less of a budget to work with.

I see Omega's Outlaw speakers as a really good value when comparing deepOmega as an independent purchase.  Considering a pair of deepOmega 12s cost 3K and a pair of Outlaws with RS7 drivers and the same 12" deepOmega drivers also cost 3K ... it's a no brainer.  The only issue is that you don't have the placement flexibility that separate boxes can achieve, but it's also been my experience that sub placement firing forward has always worked the best for me anyways, so I believe the Outlaws would still work very nicely.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #115 - 02/14/15 at 12:36:48
 
Beowulf,  those Outlaws are way under priced.  By my calculus, they should have a final price at least $1000...maybe even $1500, higher after this "Introductory price" goes away. I know these would be wonderful and I'm thinking how could I work these into my listening life.  But the Zu Souls are top dog in my Den where they sit beside my Omega Alinco 7XRSs.  In this second system, where I usually don't play them very loud, I'm not even sure I'd want a pair of Subs.  The Zu Audio Souls of all three pair of my speakers, give the deepest, most satisfying Bass.  And the HR-1s will never be taken out of the listening cave.  If I ever cleaned up my living room, that's very large, I could see buying a product like this. But do I really "need" a third system?  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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DBC
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #116 - 02/14/15 at 12:43:19
 
Quote:
beowulf wrote:

I see Omega's Outlaw speakers as a really good value when comparing deepOmega as an independent purchase.  Considering a pair of deepOmega 12s cost 3K and a pair of Outlaws with RS7 drivers and the same 12" deepOmega drivers also cost 3K ... it's a no brainer.  The only issue is that you don't have the placement flexibility that separate boxes can achieve, but it's also been my experience that sub placement firing forward has always worked the best for me anyways, so I believe the Outlaws would still work very nicely.


I agree the Outlaws seem to be a great value. My only concern based on my experience with the MBM is ringing that might be introduced from the lower sub portion of the Outlaw cabinet into the upper portion where the full range drive is located ???

Only reason I say this is when my system is at moderate volume and I place my hand on the MBM I can feel it working. The cabinet is not moving around a 1/4 of an inch but a couple thousand's of an inch (enough that you can feel it). The MBM weighs 40 pounds so for the cabinet to move at all is I think an indication of how much acoustic energy is being radiated into the listening room. I never hear anything coming from the MBM (no localization) it integrates seamlessly.

I have a pair of Omega Super Alnico Monitors on order and plan to place them on top of my MBM's using Auralex MoPad Monitor Isolation Pads.

I've stated this before, in my room a single MBM provides at least 85% of the performance compared to a pair of MBM's (85% of a big improvement is a big improvement). If I were limited to one MBM in my room I would be very happy. My only point is if you already have Monitors on stands two deepOMEGA's are not an absolute requirement.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #117 - 02/14/15 at 13:02:09
 
I had an email exchange with Canada Rob over at the Omega forum a while back which I don't think he will mind if I share here.

Quote:
Hi Doug,

The front firing vs down firing format.

Down firing: less critical of placement due to a more diffused delivery, but not as articulate.  Will satisfy a larger number of users. Generally less costly to manufacture.

Front firing:  The driver is further from the floor allowing it to produce better in it's upper frequency limits.  No back wave coming off the floor.  Less diffused and more articulate delivery, but a little more tricky for placement, especially if it reaches up to 150+ Hz.

As far as positioning of the sub, the ideal is dead centre and preferably a tad further back from the listener than the speakers.  This "ideal" isn't always practical for reasons you mentioned.  Many use two subs to get that "ideal".  You are correct in saying the sub doesn't need to be front and centre in order for the image to remain balanced left to right.  The sub should however be placed somewhere between the speakers and not outside them, especially a front firing one.

All the above is in reference to fast music subs and not slow home theatre ones.


My email response to Canada Rob:

Quote:
Hi Rob,

Your points regarding the Pros & Cons of Front Firing vs. Down Firing make perfect sense and are spot on from my experience. Your points brought this to  mind, I used to have my MBM's sitting directly on the floor. At that time I was trying to eliminate vibration in my equipment rack and in a round about way read an article on how Auralex Isolation Platforms are used to isolate Sub vibrations from the listening room floor resulting in more articulate bass. I purchased a couple of the platforms and two things happened. The vibration in my equipment rack was eliminated and Bass from the down firing MBM's became much tighter, defined and less diffused.

I think I can safely conclude that down firing subs impart a lot of energy directly into the floor creating if you will a huge radiator (the floor) that mucks up the Bass somewhat. Placing the Auralex Isolation platform under the MBM's resulted in an immediately noticeable improvement in definition & articulation. IMO you might want to try one of these under your down firing deepOMEGA. My guess is it will likely close the gap you note between Front Firing and Down Firing configurations?


I currently have my MBM's stacked on top of my Subs in their intended Down Firing placement. I have also tried the MBM's laying on their sides in a Forward Firing configuration. To my ear I prefer Down Firing but this is simply personal taste, others may well prefer Front Firing. To my ear the Down Firing radial dispersion creates a slightly wider and deeper soundstage.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #118 - 02/14/15 at 13:11:28
 
Doug,  thanks for that post.  I have picked out where a deep Omega 12 will be placed in my 11ft X 11 ft  Listening Cave, against the back wall, centered between the speakers.  I have concrete floors covered by carpet/pad so I'm not sure a platform is needed but maybe the carpet would absorb some of the Bass...what do you think?  Mark.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #119 - 02/14/15 at 13:42:46
 
Mark58,

Read this review and especially the comments that follow regarding concrete. I work in an industrial environment and am quite familiar with how efficiently concrete transmits vibration to walls that are anchored to a concrete floor.

http://www.htguys.com/news/2010/12/5/auralex-subdude-video-review.html

I tried 24" x 24" by 1.5" thick poured concrete pavers from Lowe's one time as equipment rack shelves to eliminate shelf vibration. These things weighed 30 pounds each and vibrated a lot more than any other material I experimented with. I realize this is counter intuitive but it was the case.

Your room is relatively small which means it will be easier to Overload it, Point being you want to hear the deepOMEGA and not the room structure interacting with the deepOMEGA as described in this link.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #120 - 02/14/15 at 13:52:13
 
I'll read the link but it sounds like I need an isolation platform for the sub.  Should it be away from the back wall?  Will it cause the wall to vibrate if right next to it with resultant worsening of the SQ?  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #121 - 02/14/15 at 14:17:10
 
I thought this comment in response to the product review at the link provided below describes better than I could have the positive results I experienced when I installed the Sub Dude Isolation platforms under my Subs and Mid Bass Modules.

Since installing the Sub Dude's I have dramatically reduced floor & side wall vibration. As a result my Subs are much less placement sensitive since they produce fewer unwanted interactions with the room surfaces.


Quote:
Ara mentioned that the bass in his theater actually sounded louder with the SubDude in place and surmised that perhaps the reason was because more bass was entering the room due to no longer entering the floor. This isn't actually the case. What is actually happening is that - without the SubDude in place - the room itself is shaking in sympathy with the subwoofer. In essence, the walls, floor and ceiling all end up acting as huge speaker surfaces. They shake along with the shaking of the subwoofer and, as a result, produce sound waves of their own. These sound waves (which are a clear form of distortion) interact with the soundwaves coming from the subwoofer - in exactly the same way that reflected soundwaves interact with the direct soundwaves. In other words, the shaking of the walls/ceiling/floor creates destructive and constructive interference when the soundwaves created by the shaking walls/ceiling/floor interact with the direct soundwaves from the subwoofer AND the reflected soundwaves.

The bottom line is that decoupling greatly reduces one major source of distortion and one major source of additional soundwaves within the room. With fewer instances of either destructive or constructive interference, the result is a somewhat flatter frequency response within the room. To be clear, both the direct soundwaves and the reflected soundwaves still exist, so decoupling is NO panacea for frequency response! But you DO eliminate the soundwaves that were the result of shaking walls/ceiling/floor, so that has an audible effect!

Some people experience LESS bass volume when they add the SubDude. That would be because the shaking walls/ceiling/floor happened to be creating constructive interference at that person's particular seating location. In Ara's case, it is very likely that the shaking walls/ceiling/floor happened to be creating destructive interference at his seating location, so that is why the bass seemed to get louder with the SubDude in place!

Regardless of whether the shaking walls/ceiling/floor happen to create either constructive or destructive interference at your particular seat though, you can expect to hear "tighter" bass with a decoupling device in place. And that is because, regardless of your room acoustics or seating location, reducing additional distortion soundwaves will always result in fewer instances of either constructive or destructive interference. As I said earlier, that means some measure of improvement in the frequency response and you are also removing a major source of distortion, which is always a good thing Wink



http://www.htguys.com/news/2010/12/5/auralex-subdude-video-review.html
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #122 - 02/14/15 at 14:36:41
 
Quote:
Mark58 wrote:

I'll read the link but it sounds like I need an isolation platform for the sub.  Should it be away from the back wall?  Will it cause the wall to vibrate if right next to it with resultant worsening of the SQ?  Mark.


Mark, before I purchased my Sub Dude my Bass was wonderful IMO. I purchased the Sub Dude primarily to eliminate vibrations in my equipment rack because of vibrations in the floor which it did. What it also did was improve Bass articulation & definition in my room by more than a subtle margin (for all the reasons stated in post 190).

If you were to install a deepOMEGA in your listening room and it were to sound the least bit Boomy, Overpowering or does not integrate seamlessly with your mains then I would definitely recommend trying the Sub Dude.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #123 - 02/14/15 at 14:53:46
 
Quote:
Mark58 wrote:

I'll read the link but it sounds like I need an isolation platform for the sub.  Should it be away from the back wall?  Will it cause the wall to vibrate if right next to it with resultant worsening of the SQ?  Mark.


I have two Mid Bass Modules placed about 6" from what I call the Front Wall (the wall in front of my listening position where my mains are located). This does not create excessive wall vibrations that degrade Bass quality since the acoustic energy is being dispersed into the room radially (diffused in all directions).

The problem I had was the Down Firing MBM was driving all of it's acoustic energy directly into the floor before being radiated outward. This caused the entire floor to vibrate and that vibration was transmitted to the adjacent walls as well. In my case Installing the Sub Dude platform blocked the direct & concentrated transfer of acoustic energy from the Down Firing driver to the floor and eliminated about 90% of my floor & wall vibration. The result in my room was noticeably Cleaner and more Articulate base.

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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #124 - 02/14/15 at 17:10:16
 
OK Doug,  I listened to the video and read all the comments on the link you provided.  My only question is which should I get.  I think one of the comments mentioned the Gramma for a down firing HSU Sub.  So both the Sub Dude and the Gramma are $50, which is most appropriate for the deep Omega 12" down firing Sub?  Mark.

PS...I think the difference between the Baby Gramma and the Sub Dude II is  that the former's mdf platform is covered in short "durable" carpet and the later is covered in Velour.  Both are 15" by 15" both have a 1" slab of the foam material under the platform.  The Gramma also has a handle, so I would assume the gramma is more for use on the road but both probably  perform the same.  Oh, both cost the same...$59.99 retail.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #125 - 02/14/15 at 19:33:30
 
Quote:
Mark58 wrote:

OK Doug,  I listened to the video and read all the comments on the link you provided.  My only question is which should I get.  I think one of the comments mentioned the Gramma for a down firing HSU Sub.  So both the Sub Dude and the Gramma are $50, which is most appropriate for the deep Omega 12" down firing Sub?  Mark.

PS...I think the difference between the Baby Gramma and the Sub Dude II is  that the former's mdf platform is covered in short "durable" carpet and the later is covered in Velour.  Both are 15" by 15" both have a 1" slab of the foam material under the platform.  The Gramma also has a handle, so I would assume the gramma is more for use on the road but both probably  perform the same.  Oh, both cost the same...$59.99 retail.  Mark.


This is what I use, it performs as advertised and looks very nice in the home (nice discrete finish).

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDudeII

The Gramma series are not finished as nicely and are intended more for Studios & Bands.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #126 - 02/15/15 at 14:39:20
 
Doug,  when looking at the Auralex products yesterday, I saw they had platforms/pads designed to be used under speakers...do you know anything about these?  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #127 - 02/15/15 at 15:53:57
 
Mark58,

Not sure which ones you are referring to? This link looks at 6 different types:

http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/monitor-isolation-pad/

I use the Auralex Sub Dude HT under my Klipsch RF-7 main towers and 15" subs because they both have big footprints. I use the smaller size Sube Dude II under my smaller Mid Bass Modules. I've also used the Auralex MOPADS under Monitor Sized speakers with good results.

The Isoacustic Monitor stands have gotten a lot of good recommendations. The minimum height on these is 3 inches, minimum height on the MOPAD is about 1" as I recall. I used the MOPAD only because the lower profile worked better for the application I had. Both have the ability to tilt the Monitor Fore & Aft.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #128 - 02/15/15 at 16:18:31
 
I didn't have any one specifically in mind but the Mo pads caught my eye because they could tilt the speaker and are relatively cheap.  I haven't tried my HR-1s with tilt although I did with my Zu Audio Souls with a nice result.  What I find amazing is that what would seem to be simple, probably inexpensive foam becomes an expensive audiophile product with a brand badge and marketing.  I'm going to keep my eyes open for foam of various densities while I'm out doing other things...to try speaker tweaks.  But tonight I'm going to try tilting the HR-1s up a bit with a book propping up the front.  Once I get a sub, I will be buying a Sub Dude.  Thanks for your posts and links,  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #129 - 02/15/15 at 17:00:30
 
Mark58,

One big side benefit when I installed the Sub Dude's was that my Sub's became much less placement sensitive. Makes sense looking back. If the Sub is transmitting mechanical energy into the floor it will probably excite the floor & sidewalls differently as you locate it at different points in the room.

Isolate the sub (stop mechanical transfer of vibrations into the floor) then all you have to deal with is how the acoustic energy (sound waves) excite the room boundaries. Wish I had experimented with Sub Isolation years ago.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #130 - 06/11/17 at 19:04:24
 

Interested in adding an MBM to my FRX-2 drivers, installed in an open-baffle enclosure.
HSU strongly advises to use a high pass crossover to limit bass to the FRX-2 and send all bass to the MBM. I'm skeptical of this approach. Thoughts?
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #131 - 06/11/17 at 22:35:12
 
Problem with doing that is that you eliminate midrange tone when you high pass.  Run the FRX2 full range.  Low pass the sub between 50 ~ 100 Hz with the lowest slop possible.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #132 - 07/04/17 at 18:32:46
 

I thought I would post an update. The MBM is just what the doctor ordered. Using pre-outs from the CSP-2. Dr. Hsu claims using the speaker taps are a major compromise.
I find that it's extremely placement sensitive. It only disappears when it is directly behind my chair, not even an inch to the left or right.
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Re: "ADDING WEIGHT & BODY"
Reply #133 - 07/04/17 at 19:59:23
 
metro,

When I was using the Mid Bass Modules I found using the Sub Dude isolation platform helped to minimize placement sensitivity quite a bit.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDudeII

Since the MBM has a downward firing driver, it has a tendency to excite the floor (vibration) and that vibration travels out to adjacent walls. This can cause a lot of nulls & peaks depending on MBM proximity to different room boundaries.

After placing the MBM on an Isolation platform virtually all room boundary vibrations were eliminated and placement was much less of an issue. Be careful not to place the MBM too close to walls or it will excite the wall and you end up with the same problem. I found the MBM on an isolation platform and maintain at least 12 inches from adjacent walls worked best.

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