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Alternative means for sourcing upgrade (Read 6381 times)
will
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #60 - 02/08/13 at 00:16:24
 
Lon,

Thanks for the tip on the HC. I burned it in on my computer circuit and refrigerator for a month or so and then on my Torii for several weeks, but as you have found, some of these things can really go a long time! Also, with these cable ends and cable for my kit cables, I have no idea what they would cost made up and retail, but presumably, they would be pretty high.

I will check around next time I get to playing with cables based on your experience though, so thanks for chiming in. I can really see how it might perform well with a high current like a bass amp (and how it could take forever to burn in).


FB,

Quote:
the task is very subjective. I think you have over-killed the issue


True, sound perception is subjective, as are each of our perceptions of value.

I actually I ended up with a lot of varied but well researched stuff, but it was one at a time over years (each part, being fully adjusted to the system/room sound to listen objectively to new stuff) with trial periods. The Uber was in the same progression, which iced the cake very nicely (but also, made the impact of some smaller power/room components less powerful, but not enough to take them out and sell them for me). With cable ends, it was one at a time too, experimenting and getting what I liked best considering the value, exploring carefully on each cable, and going on from there. And yes, there is obviously a difference in sound with home made cable materials and construction, as with commercial ones. Gold Furutech sounds different than Copper as does everything in a cable...materials and construction, even how you treat the cable end plugs.

Admittedly it is fun for me to explore in this way, but I rarely hear/read anyone else on this or other forums who feel the music in their rooms so engaged by it that it has the ultra-transporting and eery sense of players in the room. This could be the system/room, or just me, perception depth, time and inclination to explore, or many other things in combination (some might say delusion). Who knows, but most I know consider me extremely perceptive on a relative scale. I always have had super tuned senses and loved playing and modifying instruments and stereos from about 12 on. And my system is unbelievable to me...better than any I have heard, homes, live, in stores, whatever. I love it.

Also, as things get more refined, all is pretty great no matter the arrangement of cables or whatever, but also most every change is obvious in its own way. I am burning in what so far appear to be some warm/bassy power tubes and by changing the NOS Raytheon OC2s to NOS RCAs (input tube regulators) things came in nicely for me, opening the sound enough so that with some fine treble/bass adjustments on the Torii, it is a very, very good "breaking in" sound. So good, I would not know something was green if I wasn't the one who is exploring. That is a minor change in my tube rolling, but still enough to make a substantial mark in a very real way that brings pleasure and enjoyment to green tubes.

So really, without listening to each part or "roll" in this system what you "think" relative to your imagined perception of me or my system means little to me. It is exactly because my system/room is so refined from progressive improvement over many years that it reflects these changes and we each find our own refinement and synergy in our own way, based on our individual (and original) preferences.
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 00:24:19 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #61 - 02/08/13 at 00:54:03
 
Will,

I did not try to hurt your sensibilities, but express my own opinion, without judging you or your system.  I respect everybody's choices, and will never attempt to judge anyone, as this is not of my concern.

I do feel I'm entitled to politely express my opinions, freely, without fear of inducing adverse reactions in others just because these opinions happen to be different to their own.

I'm sure you must have your own powerful reasons behind your decisions, and so do I.
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will
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #62 - 02/08/13 at 01:08:56
 
FB,

I get that and assumed this was the case...it is just that opinions without experience are often very personal, and therefore less clear due to some complex of theory or bias (that may not be our friends) rather than experience, making them not necessarily real. I have no issue with anyone stating opinion, but when it is unfounded based in my experience, then I will speak up also (if I feel like it.)

Its all a very interesting exploration to me, and I am glad we are all into it together on this and other great forums. It flexes our perception and broadens our ability to perceive reality, and to find new and useful ways to realize the potential of what we love in the music.

Wink
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #63 - 02/08/13 at 01:37:19
 
I understand that, Will, but you certainly cannot expect everybody to follow in your steps before being entitled to more or less form an opinion about such decisions, 'when applied to themselves.'

I think my mistake was not to clarify the statement was evidently 'in my case,' as I naively assumed it was implicit.  :)

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will
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #64 - 02/08/13 at 02:06:50
 
I absolutely do not expect everyone to follow in my steps. But when someone is exploring something I have explored, and I feel like my information might be useful, I feel obligated to be as clear as I can with in my experience and interpretations. I am sorry if comes off has "the way" or something to you.

To me, I hold that your opinion is unfounded in experience, not that you are not entitled to your "opinion."
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 02:16:25 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #65 - 02/08/13 at 02:48:19
 
I definitely disagree, sorry.

Common sense and sensible thinking is given to human beings so we can reasonably anticipate, without having to try all the endless possible alternatives, because life is too short.

Your particular 'subjective' conclusions stemming from all that experience, are yours. We appreciate you share them, but do not assume these are universal truths, nor try to impose them on others, nor assume others are wrong just because they haven't used the same approach.
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 11:06:07 by Fireblade »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #66 - 02/08/13 at 03:34:30
 
Lon shared:
Quote:
The isolation transformers I used are functioning properly, and were the Tripplite models Steve suggested. Don't know why, but they don't work as well as any other power solution I've tried. Two others here have noted similar problems. Perhaps the "consensus" isn't as consolidated. I don't believe everything I read on the web, and it's interesting that I'm not alone at having issues when used with Decware components.

Anyway, hope you continue to find improvements! My biggest hope for improvement is my next domicile. . . I know what it is now and it seems promising, likely to yield better sound than my pier and beam house.

Lon, will be interesting to hear how the new digs sound; do you have a time frame for how long your audio system will be down?

Like you, I did not find pleasing my try with the Tripplite; I tried two, but was unimpressed. I have also had all sorts of power conditioning, brickwalls, balanced power [still use the Transcendent BPS on my office headphone rig, where the power draw seems less demanding], silly Monster products, including that big pig the AVS-2000 [which mostly showed that the power in my area, both at home and office was fairly reliable, if prone to occasionally drops and surges, especially at the office]. But nothing, but nothing, had the impact of the PS Audio PPP [thanks for encouraging me there] I would love to find room in this year's budget to upgrade to a pair of P5 Power Plants, but I don't need, need them. Even when compared to power in the wee hours, which is quite stable, and lower noise, as one can see from the lower activity of the Noise Harvesters in the room, the deep blackness of the background, the sense of robust depth and full soundstage on huge choral works, and high resolution, high dynamic records such as R-men's I Thought About You is just amazing. And in the quiet, something like the O Holy Night on Cantate Domino, when you can feel the church around you, when you are no longer listening to music, but something more, the outpouring of emotion, is indeed breathtaking.
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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #67 - 02/08/13 at 03:53:02
 
I know, I love mine and nothing else I've tried has approached it.I'd definitely invest in another for my second system or a P5 for this one, and may in the future if the fates allow.

I'm not sure how long my system will be "down." Possibly just a few weeks. I have a mid-April move planned, and it will be the last thing packed and the first thing set up. A friend and I are driving my system, instruments and other valuables up together, but I'm not anywhere near that point yet.
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HPDJ
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #68 - 02/08/13 at 08:28:21
 
I had an AMAZING time with my Trapezium's today and had one of those classic digging-though-my-collection moments because the sound was so good!

I placed my Trap's on the floor in front of my rug about 4 feet apart and I sat about 4 feet away (I'm usually only 2 feet away from them)...if you've been following the thread, it was suggested that I try to isolate my amp/DAC from my little Trap's in order to have them be less susceptible to the vibrations created by the Trapeziums down-firing port.....well....I somehow forgot about listening critically and was having so much fun playing track after track with my system!

Due to the changes in proximity from my usual listening position and new distance b/t the speakers on the floor, it's hard for me to say if there were added bonuses from the lack of influence of vibrations on my amp/dac. Also I played the music a little louder than usual in order to get some larger music-images and feel the fantastic PUNCH these speakers are capable of (when Steve wrote that these speakers have amazing bass he was not kidding!!). So all I'm basically saying is that I will have to do some more listening with some fixed variables in order to clearly see if I hear any changes from isolating the speakers from the amp/dac....

Ok, here are some of the tracks I played. I'm very familiar with them all (except one) and may try to use them in the future when evaluating gear...I could think of a couple more tracks to add actually Smiley

House of Waters, Elsewhere (album).  
-This is a group I saw playing in the subway here in NY and was blown away by how amazing they were! Particularly their Hammered Dulcimer player, he was a virtuoso on the instrument! Their music has great punch and delicate swirls, gentle bells/flutes, crashing cymbals, and authoritative bass runs. I even chatted with him after I promptly purchased their CD...I like picking an artists brain a bit when I get the chance...cuz i was really in awe of these guys. You should definitely check them out if my (meager) description sounds interesting to you at all. Actually something tells me Steve D. would really like them haha! If I ever go to Decfest I will have to bring their CD with me!

Fela Kuti, Expensive Shit (album)
-The horns, group vocals, deep electric bass/bass drum, synth keyboards and percussive accoutrements  were ALL here to delight in. My whole body was moving with the music!

Eric Dolphy, Out There (album)
-I LOVE this guys music and the last track on this album ("Feathers") has this deep bass and gliding sax that gives me chills every time I hear it..

Miles Davis, Miles Smiles (album)
-The song "Circle" is maybe my fav off this album Smiley

Beethova Oba (Haitian Artist), Futur (album)
-Saw him play live a few times, he is AMAZING and a great guy (got to meet him). He is a completely self taught guitarist with a very unconventional way of playing...I believe he is a lefty that plays a "righty" guitar WITHOUT rearranging the order of the strings. Unlike Hendrix who I believe DID rearrange the strings. Anyway this is impressive to me even more since I play guitar and am self taught as well. Oh and the first track on this album is dedicated to his mother. The words are in creole but even if you can't understand it, I think the music is conveying it all! The strings sounds soooo great!

Robert Plant and Allison Krauss, Raising Sand (album)
-This is the only album I'm not familiar with yet...I'd been meaning to buy it for a looong time and finally got around to it. But like a lot of my musical purchases, I didn't crack it open because I wasn't "ready" yet. I'm really all about waiting till I'm "open" and "ready" to listen to an album (sounds a bit silly but it's what feels right to me I guess). I've played music that was great, at a time when I wasn't in the mood and totally missed what it had to offer me so........yeah, you get the point..

Anyway, I'm still not quite in the right place to hear the whole album, but I wanted a little taste so I played just the first track and it sounded quite nice...a little boomy in the bass but that could be due to  a bunch of factors I haven't considered yet and...am not that concerned with right now. My DAC is still burning in too so, yeah. That's one thing Smiley

Led Zeppelin, In Through the Out Door (Album)
-I'm a big fan of the latter Zep catalog and tend to prefer it (in general) over the earlier stuff....BLASPHEMY I know haha, but in short (cuz I could go on) they were on some other sh*& during the latter years that I just really dig. And don't get me wrong it the least, I love the early stuff as well. Ok I'll admit it, Zeppelin is my favorite band of all time! Smiley "All of my love" is just.....yeah, out of this world. What a song! I actually have the remastered "Best of " they put out in 2007 I think AND I have the year 2000-something whole ITTOD album and the remastered ones vocals were a bit more clear and the bass had more thump. I liked the newer remastered one. I DON'T like compilations though. I just bought it cuz it's Zep and I wanted to hear how it compared to the other mastered version I had Smiley

This post long enough for you yet?? haha. Thanks for reading and wish me luck with this impending snow storm coming to NY  :-[
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #69 - 02/08/13 at 11:02:50
 
HPDJ,

Glad you really enjoyed your system with those changes. Provided you find the means to decouple the speakers from the rest of your components and get them (when possible) well into the listening room (away from walls and the bare floor), it will reward you with great sound.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #70 - 02/08/13 at 14:03:59
 
HPDJ, thanks for sharing that listening experience. Your enthusiasm for House of Waters intrigued me. I found them on iTunes and Amazon, but those are lo-res of course. Still, the previews were good enough for me, so I found the House of Waters website, but they only seem to offer downloads there. But at the artist's website, you can order CDs. I like the reference on his bio page: "the Jimi Hendrix of the hammered dulcimer."
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #71 - 02/08/13 at 14:50:57
 
Lon,

It seems you were right in this one too:

From P. McGowan (CEO-PS Audio):

'If it were my system, I would simply use the Dectet and abandon the Tripplite.  I think you'll have much better sound and be happier with your system's performance.  Isolation transformers do some good but can also cause more sonic degradation than benefit and IMHO should be avoided.'

This, after a second mail from me, making sure he understood my 'Trippline' is an Isolation Transformer (not a conditioner, as he may have thought initially)

Of course, these people sell somewhat competing products, but I think there must be some truth in what he's saying.

My Isolation Transformer does not produce any audible sounds, even if I stick my ear to the speaker when the amp is running iddle at normal listening volume.

I live in a small city in the outskirts (1 hr drive) of the capital city, so theoretically there are much less AC noise generating sources in this area.

I'm also in a community that is isolated from the small city, about 5 kms away from downtown, and all our power distribution cabling is underground (no posts, hanging transformers, etc.)

The problem I face, is the Isolation Transformer protects me from possible surges and spikes, and the Dectet won't (nor the Buss line of conditioners).   Undecided

BTW, good luck with your new domicile. Hopefully you'll find better AC quality there!
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 20:43:43 by Fireblade »  

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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #72 - 02/08/13 at 15:22:17
 
Thanks for that info.

My Tripplites don't make audible noise to the ear at the speaker etc. but my Power Plant showed me it was introducing noise. And it imparted a sound to the equipment, that was the biggest negative. Radcha heard it too using both these and the Duets and that helped me to isolate it. Without the Tripplite the sound was more natural, less digital sounding.

You could purchase an outlet with surge protection, such things exist, and then use the Dectet or the Uberbuss etc. Or just enjoy what you have.

I should have better power at the new place, but with my Power Plant. . . it really doesn't matter that much I wager.
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 15:23:01 by Lon »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #73 - 02/08/13 at 15:44:42
 
Oh I'm totally convinced on the regeneration concept those plants use. It makes a lot of sense IMO, and it's the best way to ensure clean AC going into one's system.

I suppose one would need to incorporate some RFI/EMI filtering power cords, to shield the already cleaned AC output from surrounding interferences before going into the component?

Anyway, this is the right approach and the only caveat is its prohibitive (at least for me) cost.

I need to sort out the Dectet vs MiniBuss choice (need to email Dave)
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« Last Edit: 02/08/13 at 15:47:31 by Fireblade »  

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HPDJ
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #74 - 02/08/13 at 16:02:28
 
Pale Rider,

I'm so glad you looked into House of Waters! If you order the CD let us know what you think...I think I'll eventually get their other two CD's as well...

I didn't see the bio that compared him to Hendrix haha! That's hilarious....his playing is definitely out of this world though Smiley
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