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Alternative means for sourcing upgrade (Read 8085 times)
HPDJ
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #30 - 02/05/13 at 04:58:13
 
Fireblade,

I agree that their website is pretty slim on details about each product...

I would list some info here, but after typing a few things I started to feel like a commercial for PI Audio haha, so here is a link (instead) to an old thread on their audio circle forum that may answer some of your questions. Smiley

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79531.0

Also, you should email Dave, the head of the company if you have any questions. He is super responsive via email and has been very patient with all the questions I've had thus far. I hope I like what I hear with his gear in my system Smiley

I'll quickly add that I've experimented with vibration control and also (very briefly) with one aftermarket power cord. I really heard no differences in my system at the time...I feel that with the addition of a power conditioner I'll actually be able to better hear what the power cord is doing (or taking away noise wise) and also what my vibration control "things" from Herbies are doing as well. So I'm basically giving this avenue another go and trying to address the weakest links in my system so that there is no bottleneck that is holding the system back from playing at it's best. I do feel that everything will benefit with more sturdy, clean power. Right now that concept seems to make sense to me..

I'm even gonna be able to demo some power cords from Triode Wire Labs when I demo the UberBuss so that will be cool. I will be able to have power cords from TWL on my amp and (new) DAC from Resolution Audio at the same time. This should prove to be informative. More to come......
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #31 - 02/05/13 at 10:58:41
 
HPDJ,

Thanks for the information. The link is too old to include anything about the MiniBuss, just UberBuss and some other discontinued models, so I guess I can always contact them directly.

Like you, I'm trying to fine tune my system systematically, tackling each potential bottleneck in a progressive pathway over time, to eventually reach a comfortable (and affordable) best sounding state.

I agree with your take on clean power, I just want to find the most cost-effective alternative that would accomplish the job.

It is odd that you could not detect improvements with Herbie's vibration control, more so than with the upgraded power cord, as the latter may not work well in your particular setting.  

Vibration control (I still haven't tried any yet, but I will) is supposed to help tangibly with sound quality, given the physics principles' concept it is based on. I suspect the improvement here depends on your particular setting.

Congrats on the new DAC. I assume you're getting the Cantata music server, as I have not found any single DAC on offer in their site. These are quite expensive, but very good.
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JD
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #32 - 02/05/13 at 12:47:23
 
I've had mixed results with certain materials used for vibration control, cork and rubber combo's have not worked too well for me a couple even seemed to deaden the sound. Herbie's isocups under my zen torii do a wonderful job sitting on my core audio black maple amp stand and the combo look great as well.  It is an interesting journey...

JD
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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #33 - 02/05/13 at 13:23:34
 
Absolutely! I have Iso-Cups under my Torii and I've tried a number of other pieces there, the Iso-Cups trump them all. (Maple is amazing too, I have the Torii on a maple platform on my maple Samson rack).
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Pale Rider
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #34 - 02/05/13 at 16:30:48
 
Quote:
Absolutely! I have Iso-Cups under my Torii and I've tried a number of other pieces there, the Iso-Cups trump them all.

+1. +10. +google. I love the Iso-Cups. On the exceptionally well-made, and very-easy-on-the-eyes ZRACKs, they are lights out.
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HPDJ
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #35 - 02/05/13 at 19:09:22
 
My particular setting is my desktop and it is a rumbling little place because of the Trapeziums (which are great). There are two levels and the speakers are on the bottom, source/amp on top level. My equipment is still very prone to any adverse effects of vibrations. These effects are not any I can necessarily detect right now, but I was hoping I would notice something different (more solid musical images, deeper bass etc) when I implemented my Herbies Audio Tenderfeet and the Iso-cups. Nothing thus far...This is why I suspect the bottleneck is power related and thus, I'm looking to address that.

And yes, I have the Cantata Music Center and am finally entering the digital music realm woohoo! I found a great deal on one and couldn't pass it up. I do feel that this particular unit is over kill for a desktop system (in my eyes anyway), but I have been really looking to get components that I see as a little over kill. Ones that will be able to "bring it" when I get a bigger space and probably some loud speakers. Ones I may be able to physically transfer from desktop to a bigger room where I can be more enveloped in the sounds that they create. I don't see me being able to have 2 systems anytime soon, otherwise I would look at this all a bit differently.

I also wanted something that would future-proof me in some ways and Resolution Audio has mentioned their commitment to offering updates to the Cantata for the next 10 years! I really don't want to be left in the dust when/if some other way of helping me enjoy my music comes along. The unit already has more flexibility than I care to use at the moment, but I like being overwhelmed by what something can do, and I love to have options (as long as certain aspects don't suffer because of the added options). Oh and I still get to spin my CD's with this unit which makes me very happy Smiley
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« Last Edit: 02/05/13 at 19:21:20 by HPDJ »  
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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #36 - 02/05/13 at 21:56:42
 
HPDJ, I find it odd that you don't hear the effects of the Herbie's Audio products, and hope you do further down the line. I really can (and others I've asked their audio opinion of in my home can as well) hear the effects, I can even tell the difference when I use different types of "balls" in my Iso Cups (man, I love the sound from the "deep green moss" gemstone balls!)

Keep us posted! I can't imagine having such an awesome desktop system! I have never needed one at home, and never was allowed to at workplaces in my work life experience.
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #37 - 02/06/13 at 00:43:00
 
HPDJ,

I'm no expert in vibration control (never have used it), but I have first-hand experience with vibrations-related sound problems stemming from my speakers sharing the same furniture table as my amp and source.

The table is solid, made out of heavy Malaysian wood (not sure which one), with wide planted feet, so it is very sturdy. Nevertheless, the loudspeakers' vibrations were a real sound killer.

Once I placed my speakers in monitor stands (I have DM945's) and into the listening room, the difference was night and day, as the source (laptop + DAC) and amp remained isolated on the table.

I therefore suspect you may be suffering from speaker vibrations creeping into your other components, if these share the basic same structure (desktop), so that Herbie's aids cannot do much, since the foundation into which the vibrations are supposed to be dissipated, is the source of that same vibration.

I may be wrong, but try to isolate the Trapeziums from the rest, temporarily, and check for sound changes (hopefully improvements.) I assume the anti-vibration devices will then be able to show their worth, as their task would be quite simple in this new context.

I learned the 'golden rule' the hard way (and I'm glad I did): Never have speakers sharing the same structure with other components.  Even if the Trapeziums are small, they're going to vibrate more than anything else in your entire setup.

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« Last Edit: 02/06/13 at 00:50:51 by Fireblade »  

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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #38 - 02/06/13 at 01:40:36
 
David, that seems sound to me. Wink I've little experience with a desktop etc. set up. The last time I did have that was with a light weight set-up that I had the speakers on Herbie's products, and the transport/amp on its own feet. Felt there was a slight improvement with the pads under the speakers. But if I'm remembering correctly it was pretty lo-fi all the way, by necessity, staying in an apartment in another city for just a few months.
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #39 - 02/06/13 at 01:56:47
 
Well, let's see if that test confirms it.  Thanks!
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HPDJ
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #40 - 02/06/13 at 19:07:23
 
Fireblade/Lon,

Yes, what you've mentioned makes sense and I will definitely try to isolate the Trap's from my source/amp and see if I hear any improvement!

Steve at Herbies had basically suggested the same thing to me via email...though he suggested one of his products to put underneath the Trap's, not knowing that this is not really an option for these speakers because they are bottom ported and if you raise them up further off the desk they will loose that port from the tiny slits off the sides of them and thus loose their bass punch and depth. This is why I bought the iso-cups and tenderfeet in the first place, so I could isolate the components from the speakers and leave eveything on the desk, but as you've said:

Quote:
the foundation into which the vibrations are supposed to be dissipated, is the source of that same vibration.


Which means I should look into some stands for them, which then makes me feel silly because these are desktop speakers!...this would mean that anyone with speakers on their desk is not getting the most out of their source gear because of these same vibration issues...but I know that some people DO keep their speakers and other components on the same desk and they have no complaints...I really hate to make "much ado about nothing"...Basically my ears will tell me the answer once I'm able to set the speakers on something else temporarily...I don't know what that might me though, I don't have much furniture to play with in that respect...I guess I'll just put em' on the floor for small periods haha :/

But you know I could put my source/amp on a rack right next to the desk. This might be the best option, but stands can get pretty pricey (well, what can't in the audio world right??) and I'd need 4 shelves so I could include my TT and Phono Preamp...

I definitely have looked into this a bit already (stands). I thought initially that maybe I could keep the components on platforms ON the desk in addition to using Herbies stuff, something like maple platforms etc....but I will eventually need a rack down the line, so maybe that's the way to go....what are your thoughts? Thanks for your opinions!
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Lon
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #41 - 02/06/13 at 19:39:42
 
Platforms could help, I love having them even on dedicated equipment racks, I love wood anyway. My two cents: plan on an equipment rack, allowing you to keep the "desktop speaker" nature of the Traps in place.

That said. . . have you tried any of the Grungebuster Dots? Not very thick, but do deal with vibrations. . . .
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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #42 - 02/06/13 at 20:02:40
 
HPDJ,

I think the reason other people may have not had negative comments on sharing speakers in the same desktop structure, is they did not tried to improve things with anti-vibration aids, and then finding out these were not making any contributions.

In your case, it is good that you tried that, as now you're more aware of the potential vibration problems you may have with this setting. I'm almost sure those other people are living with the issue just for the convenience involved with having a desktop setup.

This gear is so noble, it still sounds nice in spite of those problems, but I bet their inherent sound quality is significantly higher.
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will
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #43 - 02/06/13 at 21:14:36
 
HPDJ,

I agree with Lon. The being "desktop" the Traps are designed for the desktop presumably. And I know ZYGI takes his design seriously, so I would seriously check with him before going for stands on a desk. The concept that the speakers be isolated first makes a lot of sense since they are vibrating the rest.

How is the Ubber going for you? Dave's power cords are very good too.

FB,

This is the index page for what PI Audio keeps up with.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=176

This is the ongoing product and price page.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102422.0

Dave is a smallllll operation and seems to have taken the easier route of a forum for a broad range of information on his stuff. Like HPDJ, I find him very easy to email with, but also dedicated, honest and smart.

I got the Uber to try because I knew and trusted him from experience talking with him, and because he was recommended by Eric Hider, the Tranquility DAC guy  whom I also trust and think is smart, has great ears, and looks deeply in a creative ways in a perpetual quest for home audio sounding "real."

I was going to get what Lon and Greg got, at the time for 1000 for Bstock, and Dave sort of subtly said he was going for complete transparency, indicating by my take that the power plant may have a "sound" to him. However, I trust Lon and Greg's opinions, and who knows which I might like better had I gone to the effort instead of just keeping the Ubber (at the old price). And really, does not everything have a signature?

Also the Tranquility DAC outperformed many DACs at many times its cost at the time I got mine according to many testers, including the 1st Perfectwave DAC...opinions...Then after talking with Eric, I got one slightly used (it had been upgraded to a Signature) to try and have not looked back. It is by the way a NOS DAC...44.1K. The Tranquility team worked to beat it in double blind tests with Async/High Rez DACs they were developing (as well as the usual suspects from1 to 3K at the time) and just couldn't beat their NOS DAC. The NOS DAC sounding more real. Don't know if they have pulled teh High-Rez off yet or not, but Eric's theory is that there is a lot of data in 44.1 K that had not been previously exploited, but they do. I can't say, as I have not compared, but for those who did, and were vocal about it on the web, the majority use Tranquility. Since then, Eric put in a newer output section that upped the anti on mine considerably. It sounds very very "real" to me, with amazing ambient Q's from low end tones right through the highs, always a very good indicator of "resolution" of detail and micro detail...while remaining very musical.

Just more food for thought.

Wil
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« Last Edit: 02/06/13 at 21:23:14 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Alternative means for sourcing upgrade
Reply #44 - 02/07/13 at 02:15:47
 
Will,

Since you have experience with the Uber-line concept, would it be enough to connect a MiniBuss to my isolation transformer, and therefore combine filtering, isolation and surge protection? How far from what the UberBuss offers would this combination achieve?

I'm having a problem discerning the difference between a Power Conditioner (like the UberBuss) and a Filter Extension (MiniBuss). Also, these concepts seem a far cry from power regeneration plants. In the case of PS Audio's 'power regeneration plants,' I understand the concept and would love to use it, except for the high price.

The problem for me is understanding the implications of EMI (electro magnetic interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference) in my household context. As far as I can tell, I'm not exposed specifically to either type of interferences.

I also don't know what a PFC network means.  The conditioners seem to have 'EMI/RFI noise reduction' and something called 'PFC network.' The MiniBuss has 'HF filtering w/ no MOVs to degrade the sound' and 'RFI absorbing material, lined with ERS cloth.'

I have the same problem with PS Audio's Dectet, as with the Mini-Buss, seemingly mere filtering, component isolation devices.

Thanks for your feedback.  In the meantime, I'll try to contact Dave at Uber-Line, for some orientation.
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« Last Edit: 02/07/13 at 04:36:00 by Fireblade »  

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