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Acheiving Good Imaging (Read 978 times)
Palomino
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Acheiving Good Imaging
01/10/13 at 19:14:40
 
I'm interested in hearing other Decware customer thoughts on acheiving 3D imaging.  I am in the production queue for a SE34 which I hope to get in March.  When I auditioned the amp at Zenfest, I instantly fell in love with the sound, but didn't get a chance to play around with speaker position, etc. and didn't get a good idea of the imaging.

The Decware amps are known for imaging, so I am hoping I can acheive this in my listening room, but I'm wondering what other users thoughts are.  In your experience, what's the formula between source, speakers, amps, ICs, power, room, etc.?

I currently acheive very good imaging via a t-amp on a battery (but pretty poor sound overall compared to the SE34).
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Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
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marky
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Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #1 - 01/11/13 at 00:34:54
 
I cant be the only one but I like to have the speakers sited so that I can see the corners of the wall in front without looking through the speakers.
This keeps the speakers a long way apart and well into the room.
Then I have an unobstructed view of the sounstage in front of me.
Speakers are pointing just to the sides of me and into a sound absorbent
panel behind me.
This doesn`t stop sounds coming from behind and to the outsides of the speakers which I hear but dont look at.
( also wating for SE34 in trepidation )  :)
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« Last Edit: 01/11/13 at 00:46:40 by marky »  
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ski bum
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Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #2 - 01/11/13 at 00:35:20
 
Make sure to get the fundamentals right (room/speaker interface) so you have a clean palate so to speak.  Decware imaging prowess comes through on all the speakers I've tried, but best results were with systems that already minimized room response and interaction (via near-field arrangement in one system, and somewhat controlled directivity in another system; in both, the direct sound and imaging are more source determined, and the way Decware amps allow you to peel apart layers in the mix is just gravy.
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Palomino
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Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #3 - 01/11/13 at 01:21:32
 
On my current setup, I get the best imaging with speakers 75 inches apart, toed in about 4" and 44" from the back wall.  I did not measure, but I think I am about 4' from the side wall on one side and a little less on the other.  

I'll try your placement in relationship to the corners idea marky.  My current setup in lopsided in that regard.

ski bum, I moved my system from a room with hardwood floors (with area rugs) and a good amount of glass into my basement with full carpet and acoustic tile ceiling.  That helped a lot.  Still not ideal, but much better.

I think power also affects imaging.  I say this for a couple reasons.  First, when I went to battery power on the t-amp, imaging improved a lot.  I also currently have a class D amp that sounds pretty good (solid bass, good midrange, etc.), but images just so-so.  I got an isolation transformer recently, plugged all components into it and now the imaging is better.  Not great, but better than it was before.  Through all this my source, ICs, power cords, outlets, speakers were all the same.  I only changed the power.
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Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
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marky
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Posts: 385
Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #4 - 01/11/13 at 11:46:08
 
I should add that my listening pos is low, and that many speakers present a soundstage above the speakers when heard at tweeter level.
Also I listen not down the length of the room but along the width, making the setup more natural. I did do the maths regarding placement
and am only a few inches out. Now, I dont get a great 3d picture, that is, solid music on the plane and in front of the speakers. It mostly goes on behind as if on a stage with some depth. I put this down to my current amps lack. I know how I want it to sound after reading many
reviews here about Decwares amplifiers.
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Palomino
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Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #5 - 01/11/13 at 14:19:31
 
In the room with the hardwood floors, the image was above the speakers.  Now with the acoustic ceiling in the basement, it is right about at the level of my head.

I think I get a pretty good side to side and up and down image.  Also deep, but not much in front of the speakers.  I'd be interested in reading the review that describes the Decware sound stage if you recall where you read it.

I also think you need optimal toe in for your speakers.  Too much and you get a deep, but not wide image.  Too little and you get wide but not deep.

Finally, I am experimenting with speaker wire.  I have silver copper 10 guage like Zen Styx, but a different mil spec # I think.  The image seems more focused when I wrap them than when I run them parallel.

I was hoping a few more Decware vets would chime in, but maybe they are like "when you get your amp, this all becomes mute."
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Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
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ski bum
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Posts: 175
Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #6 - 01/11/13 at 17:08:20
 
Palomino, what speakers are you running?  

I use 10 and 12awg cables for all my systems, although it's probably overkill.  Don't sweat that stuff anyway.  If a cable is doing anything other than transmitting an unadulterated signal, it's not fat enough.  10awg is fat enough.  The speaker/room interface issues will dwarf all others, so focus there.
 
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« Last Edit: 01/11/13 at 19:55:33 by ski bum »  
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Palomino
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Posts: 265
going
Reply #7 - 01/11/13 at 17:21:39
 
The same driver in the DNA horn, but in a horn cabinet I built.  I am going to buy the DNA plans and do it right when I get the time.
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Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
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ski bum
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Posts: 175
Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #8 - 01/11/13 at 17:54:06
 
That's totally weird...I'm working with some TB W4 drivers similarly.

Those should be easy enough to get to image rather well.  Pay attention to symmetry, both between the lp and speakers, and speakers and room boundaries.  I use mine with a cheapo 12" sub to fill the bottom end below 90 hz or so.

Folks may not believe this, but I get the most convincing image from my old Klipsch fortes, corner loaded, cross fired in front of the lp.  If it's a live recording, I'm transported to the venue; size, scope, left to right, front to back, huge depth of field, dynamics, bass, the whole shebang.
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Palomino
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Re: Acheiving Good Imaging
Reply #9 - 01/11/13 at 18:35:33
 
I originally put these in an open baffle. They sounded great, but I had to run a sub which sounded muddy to me.  I tried a small 8" and a 15" sub.  Both cheap but the 8" is relatively tight.  Still it sounded muddy.  The horn works better, but not as deep (or as musical) as the DNA.
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Mac Mini with Adirvana, Onkyo ND-S1 Digital Transport (modified) with linear power supply, iPod Classic, Beresford Bushmaster MKII (on 12V Battery), Signal Cable Digital Coax, Decware ICs, SE34I.32, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Power Cords, DIY Speakers
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