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Jupiter Caps (Read 4410 times)
Fireblade
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Jupiter Caps
12/02/12 at 18:59:08
 
I took a ride on the internet, looking for practical info on these, and found (although not an exhaustive conclusion), that the general consensus from the various 'comparos' performed among competitive caps, seems to favor them.

Jupiter caps seem to achieve a good balance between quality and cost, with high musicality emphasis and less resolution extremes, ideal for longer listening periods.  There's just a slight character on the sound that betrays the presumed pristine neutrality of the top (very expensive) caps out there, but this tradeoff, I suppose, helps avoid the cold, ultra-transparent, analytical sound of pure teflon-based caps (i.e., TF VCaps).

Again, this is all conditions-dependent as well as subjective, taste-driven appraisal.  In general, though, the conclusions seem to indicate the ideal compromise between quality and cost.  Let's face it, beyond a certain cost threshold, it would not make sense investing further for the really extreme results obtained from the big players (Duelund, VCap and top of the line Mundorfs), considering the amp's base price.

I guess if one has an already brightish system, too analytical maybe or showing somewhat uncomfortable excess (tiring) details, the Jupiter would be ideal.  On the other hand, in my case, as I'm experiencing a somewhat warmish sound with the stock set-up, and although I may be able to correct this through some tube-rolling, I feel I may need something more Teflon-oriented.

Unfortunately, the latter proposition is much more expensive and definitely not as cost-effective, and may end up being too much of a good thing (which I may not be able to afford, either).  The Jupiter caps are reported by testers as very transparent also, just not to the levels presented by the more expensive stuff.

I'm sure Mr. Deckert already sorted all this out and his choice of the Jupiter caps is the optimal one for the Mini Torii.  Can someone tell me what are the stock caps in the Mini Torii, Ver. I?  Thanks!
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« Last Edit: 12/02/12 at 22:36:56 by Fireblade »  

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Les Lammers
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #1 - 12/02/12 at 23:21:25
 
IMHO, you should play with the 12XX7's before messing with da caps. The 6n1p is what is making your system sound warm.

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Rivieraranch
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #2 - 12/03/12 at 00:30:34
 
I thought the MINI TORII was supposed to use a 12AU7 input?
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #3 - 12/03/12 at 01:08:52
 
Mine came stock with 6N1P-Ev as drivers.  This Mini can take also 6922, 12AU7, 12AT7 and its varieties.  The 12AX7, I think is too much gain for the Mini, but who knows.

I think after the tube-rolling and vibration control basics to apeace the warmish tone, the next move ought to be the caps replacement.  Only after that I'm going to really enjoy the potential improvement subtleties of an eventual (and necessary) upgrade in DAC.

My Mini-based system is a keeper, and I intend to develop it further, gradually, as I learn more and evolve with it.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #4 - 12/03/12 at 01:16:25
 
That's strange because I have never seen it published that they added 6N1P or 6922 tubes as acceptable input choices. You need to try a 12AU7 or 12AT7 in there and stop lusting after exotic capacitors.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #5 - 12/03/12 at 02:23:56
 
Ha! At least I don't lust after a 'collection' of Decware amps.  

Re the 6N1P-Ev, I believe it's a matter of economics.  Russian tubes like those are very good and quite cheap.  At least, that's my explanation for the stock ones I received with the Mini.

These may also convey slightly less gains, which in the Mini is a big deal.  I for one never had an issue with clipping due to over-reacting volume pots, and I can go to 2 O'Clock without issues.  The original design set was supposed to clip by mid-point in that dial.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #6 - 12/03/12 at 08:48:33
 
Wow!

I didn't know that this amp could accept 6N1Ps.

Does it have a flip switch for that?

Coz I always had the impression that the 12a(t/x/u) had different pin out and other tube requirements as compared with the ECC88 family of tubes.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #7 - 12/03/12 at 11:28:27
 
I know, I discussed this with David in another thread, I've never known an amp that could use both the 6N1P and 12Axx series of tubes and sound right. And I didn't know the MT could, it's not in the literature.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #8 - 12/03/12 at 12:03:32
 
Given the reiterated surprise/suspicion replies caused by my alleged 6N1P-Ev driver tube in the Mini, this time I took them out and checked for labels.  The reason I said these were 6N1P-Ev is because both original boxes have that description/name written on them.

Instead, the now just semi-legible printing on those tubes say 'USA 5963' (in white letters), and something in gold letters that ends with 'electron tube' and there are three golden bigger letters before that, which may be BCI or BCT or RCT or RCI.  I can't tell, as these are really vanishing.

From vacuumtubes.com, 12AU7/ECC82 List:

5963

'This tube makes a decent substitute for the 12AU7 as the characteristics are almost the same.  The 5963 has a slightly lower plate voltage rating compared to regular 12AU7.  The 5963 has a max plate voltage of 250V while 12AU7 has a max of 330V. This tube has a specially designed cathode which can withstand long periods of time in cut-off without hurting the tube.'


I'm not sure what the 'cut-off' term means in this context, can someone please explain?

So, my apologies.  I just assumed all this time that what the box said was the actual name of those tubes (I'm a newbie, remember?).

What do you guys think about the 5963? Here's the Data Sheet:

http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/5963.pdf


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« Last Edit: 12/03/12 at 13:01:33 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #9 - 12/03/12 at 13:47:58
 
Okay, that makes sense, I just couldn't picture the 6N1Ps working in that amp. And I personally don't consider them a "warm tube," they vary and are available in models from several factories and can be "tight" and "relaxed."
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #10 - 12/04/12 at 00:23:31
 
You could snap a 12AT7 in there.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #11 - 12/04/12 at 00:38:12
 
Yep, that's my general plan.  I'm still waiting for those 12AT7 Brimars along with that tube assortment that's clugged up somewhere at customs.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #12 - 12/04/12 at 01:07:27
 
Let's hope the Panamanian authorities are not playing catch with your tube stash
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #13 - 12/04/12 at 01:54:44
 
Not likely, as there's no tube market in this town.  Unless they don't know it yet?
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #14 - 12/04/12 at 11:42:43
 
The 5963 is a computer tube and there are many variants.  Like all tubes, it will or won't float your boat. My amp came with JJ 12AU7's and they were immediately replaced. I had other 12AU7's to use but prefer 12AT7's in the Mini.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #15 - 12/04/12 at 13:50:27
 
I wonder why I got those instead.  They worked in my Mini but I haven't been able to compare them yet, so I'm hoping the Brimars will make a positive contribution.

I understand you prefer the EZ80 rectifiers instead of the stock EZ81.    Should I try the Brimars with those first? Maybe the combination of those Brimars and the EZ80's have a more sinergistic relationship?

I hope my tubes come before Christmas.  I'd hate to spend it without my music.  I haven't even got word from the 'rushed' EZ81 rectifiers either ... I feel like living in a forgotten island in the middle of the Pacific.
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« Last Edit: 12/04/12 at 13:51:02 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #16 - 12/06/12 at 01:41:41
 
Some 5963's are well regarded but they were not designed for audio. Just try the different tubes and see which you prefer. Trust your ears.
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« Last Edit: 12/06/12 at 10:56:15 by Les Lammers »  
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #17 - 12/06/12 at 12:39:59
 
The thing with tubes intended for computer applications, like the 5963, is these are not required to pass any 'noise' tests when designed/manufactured.  Some of them are well made and thus also suitable for HiFi audio, but some are noisy through microphonics.

The issue is knowing which one is which. I assume Steve & Co. tested these before putting them in my Mini (I still don't understand why I did not get the typical 12AU7), so there shouldn't be any additional noise with these.

Knowing this now, I expect a larger sonic difference between the stock 5963 and a 12AT7 like the Brimar.  Hopefully this difference will be a pleasant one.  We'll see.
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« Last Edit: 12/06/12 at 12:41:02 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #18 - 12/06/12 at 13:40:48
 
Up at DECFEST I have seen their tube test equipment, Maxi Matcher units and a high-end bench test Hickok model. Both test for noise. I doubt they would send out tubes that were not tested.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #19 - 12/06/12 at 15:20:23
 
It's good to know, RR.  I'm sure that is the case.  Actually, I've never experienced any noises or hums with this amp, which presents a very black background as is typical of Minis.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #20 - 12/10/12 at 14:32:15
 
I can't believe my luck!  Tube Monger sent the 'rushed' RFT rectifiers through USPS first class mail to Miami.  It didn't get there!  On Dec. 5th they re-sent a replacement package (for free), this time with signature confirmation, and they've placed a tracking claim with USPS.  Hopefully this time around the package will make it to Miami and eventually down here.

I don't know what's going on these days with my mail, but as you recall, Les's package is still in limbo and we're currently waiting for a tracking claim reply from USPS on that first package also.

In the meantime, I've been without my music for almost 7 weeks today   Cry
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #21 - 12/10/12 at 16:01:45
 
Sorry the situation continues. Here's hoping something comes through SOON.
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Fireblade
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #22 - 12/10/12 at 21:28:28
 
Hey, Lon, thanks for your wishes.  Incredible odds, isn't it?  I think I'll embark in a listening 'marathon' once these tubes finally arrive (if they do).
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« Last Edit: 12/10/12 at 21:29:22 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #23 - 12/10/12 at 22:08:04
 
Seven weeks?  Good god, man.  I go through music withdrawal just going to work for a 12 hour shift.  I feel for you.  Shit, you could have rowed a boat to Miami and back in the amount of time it's taken.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #24 - 12/11/12 at 01:58:58
 
No kidding!  I've been listening to my sound card with a modest 3.5 mm laptop headset, just to relieve the tension.  When I can't stand it anymore, I play old recordings in mono, with one channel (1 speaker) and it definitely doesn't keep me that happy either.

It's been a very humbling situation after all my bragging about tube-rolling my way into 'fine-tunning the Mini.'  I mean, I've learned a couple of things about bringing small stuff down here, at least.

I've also classified more music material and upgraded my WASAPI driver to the latest event-style version (which sounds better through my headset, al least) to listen to when those tubes arrive.

But, I'm going nuts ...
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #25 - 12/13/12 at 23:04:52
 
Ok, the second Tubemonger package, with the pair of replacement RFT EZ81 rectifiers, is in.  Tubes currently 'cooking' without music until at least midnight.  Tomorrow, I'll turn the amp on again, no music, while I go swimming (my usual fitness/conditioning drill), and when I get back it would be the 'let the games roll' music marathon (wife's on vacation, so she'll supervise the amp while I'm gone).

I'll probably won't really enjoy the sound quality until Sunday, but that's ok.  At least, I'll be listening to a stereo rig after 7 weeks +1 day of deprivation.   Cool
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« Last Edit: 12/14/12 at 02:14:41 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #26 - 12/13/12 at 23:45:33
 
Congrats. My bet is that you WILL start to enjoy it right away.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #27 - 12/15/12 at 17:15:59
 
Thanks, Lon.  You were right, I couldn't resist and played music right after about 6 hours cooking time (went to bed at 4:00 am!), and the sound was great.

Next day (yesterday), I continued this music marathon, and now I feel I can summarize the slight differences in sound from what I remember of the original JJ EZ81's:

The RFT EZ81 rectifiers are slightly more laid back (slower-reacting), lacking some of the JJ's attack, but confering more body, with a more 3-dimensional sound projection.  A more palpable presentation with same detailing, but with more 'oomph.'

Overall, I prefer the RFT's in the Mini.  In some selections the speed of the JJ's is missing, not for much, but I feel the sinergy of the RFT's with the stock tube complement is right on, more fulfilling.  

I also detect a slightly more defined soundstage with the RFT's.  Of course, this may be the result of that left channel's JJ starting to fail (recent memory is mostly from that final time period).

I assume the RFT's are not quite fully burned-in yet, so I may get even better results soon.  But so far, I'm enjoying the sound very much. The caveat to all this, is now I'm really interested in that tube-rolling experiment that went astray with the 'elusive' tube stash from Les.

I can envision some important tube-rolling improvement potential based on this single experience with NOS rectifiers.  I can now imagine less than subtle changes rolling drivers and output tubes.  I'm impressed!
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« Last Edit: 12/15/12 at 17:26:15 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #28 - 12/15/12 at 18:33:11
 
Glad the new rectifiers are working out well for you. I myself prefer a laid back sound to a forward one, so I'd be very happy with that result.

You've some tube-rolling fun ahead of you if that package ever arrives! And if not as well. But I'm glad you're back in two channel listening again.
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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #29 - 12/15/12 at 22:08:35
 
Thanks, Lon.  Actually, I think you're right when using the 'laid back' term in the sense you're alluding too.  But, I was referring more to the timing of playback, and so I may have used the wrong term in this case.  

The JJ's seem to be faster in projecting the rhythm changes, making these more evidently exposed.  The RFT's are more subtle and slower in doing that.  Usually, this is a good thing for me.  But, for example, when the passages are slow, a faster reaction time to welcome tempo changes may keep musicality more alive.  

Of course, this is all very subjective and system dependent, but most of the time I prefer a more palpable (meaty) and extended transition, like with the RFT's.  This provides a fuller presentation, allowing for more time exposure to those rhythm transitions.

In any event, I'm really liking these new rectifiers in the Mini.  I can't wait to experiment some more, with drivers and output tubes. I'm really having fun again!
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« Last Edit: 12/15/12 at 22:10:12 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Jupiter Caps
Reply #30 - 12/15/12 at 22:34:03
 
I figured the RFT would be pleasing. As for the rhythmic changes . . . rolling other tubes will help with their interactions.

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