Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
10/25/14 at 01:52:23


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II (Read 6832 times)
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #15 - 11/29/12 at 12:08:55
 
I may be wrong, but I've been thinking the adjustable negative feedback mod may not be of interest to me, as it would further crowd the signal path, and the stock dynamics in my Mini are good enough to avoid having to slightly sacrifice the midrange sound quality to improve it.

After all, this is a beam-tetrode design and it (theoretically) already compromises some of that midrange magic from triodes by trading it off with improved dynamics.  Could someone familiar with these techniques correct me?

Finally, I find the Caps improvements much more appealing, as these are supposed to improve SQ overall.  I don't know what are the tradeoffs involved, hopefully just cost?
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #16 - 11/29/12 at 13:07:44
 
I would be very surprised if the adjustable feedback impaired the sonic quality in any way other than offering a way to tailor the sound. "Crowding the signal path". . . I'm not sure it necessarily would and beyond that I've discovered that at the hands of the best designers departure from the purest of signal paths can have sonic benefits. And Steve is one of those designers. I agree that it may not make sense to send the amp back for modifications, but it's likely a great change to the model for new buyers.

Similarly, in the hands of Steve triode and pentode and even single-ended and push-pull are not intrinsically one better than another, a lot of the old thinking about these things don't apply with his designs. For example my push-pull Toriis sound so similar to the single-ended Zena amps I've had that it's a non-issue, and when I could switch between triode and pentode in my original Zen amp I preferred one over the other for weight and pace reasons more than the differences in the two modes.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/29/12 at 13:23:20 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Rivieraranch
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1274
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #17 - 11/29/12 at 13:55:31
 
They are always looking for ways to improve existing products in an honest fashion. In other words their motivation is always good sound, not just to roll out new products to raise their profit margin. The original Mini Torii is by no means obsolete. I tried mine with the 0C2 tubes turned off and did not like the sound at all. I could see why Steve would omit that option, and add the adjustable feedback. The new caps - well that is an advancement that was an improvement.
Back to top
 
 

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #18 - 11/29/12 at 14:30:12
 
Amen, Brother Jim.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #19 - 11/29/12 at 16:49:20
 
Ok, maybe I didn't express the ideas clear enough (or maybe I'm wrong).  Also, don't take what I'm about to say as criticism of any kind:

The adjustable negative feedback 'IS' a tradeoff by design.  It trades midrange liquidity and lush for more powerful dynamics.  I did not assume this.  It's a nice feature for someone interested in applying this tradeoff to accomodate recording sound characteristics.  I'm just saying, I would not consider it after some thought, for the stated reasons.

You can argue about design proess and I agree, but adding a negative feedback selector in the signal path may, ceteris paribus, not be without a cost.  In this case, the user will trade some midrange sonics (or stability, or something), for the added boost in dynamics.  That's inherent in negative feedback as a design choice.

I'm not implying Decware did this just to show off, but to allow interested people to take advantage of this possibility.  To show the dynamic potential of a well designed beam-tetrode SE amp.  If 'I' was buying the new model, that additional cost would not be put to use, is what I'm saying.

Finally, I keep listening to contradictory believes in this forum re the sonic differences between some design philosophies: As an example, I was reminded here of the 'special' sound of the simplest amp, the SE84C+, in terms of its liquidity and 'magic.'  I agree.  So, there are differences and tradeoffs in any design, given the objectives pursued.  

In this case, having the means to affect the final sound signature throughout the discrete negative feedback range, is good.  I just would probably not use it as I would not sacrifice, again, any of the already possible midrange or other (liquidity, etc.) characteristics in the Mini at the 'voiced' optimal negative feedback level, just for the added dynamic boost.

That's my amp's usage choice, based on my current opinion, until someone proves me wrong.  The 'prove me wrong' is what I was asking for as feedback. I'm a rational individual, I believe in logic and facts.  I may be missing enough information, but I have not seen it yet.

I'm all for the Caps upgrade, though, definitely.

Thanks for the inputs.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/29/12 at 16:56:27 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #20 - 11/29/12 at 18:15:28
 
Lord knows I would never want to prove you wrong, that's not how I ever operate, and I'm of a different sort as far as logic and facts go, I can't ever know the absolute everything and often don't draw conclusions with definitiveness from what I do know. That leaves a lot of gray and I'm okay with that.

Anyway, I wouldn't say "I wouldn't use the negative feedback selection option" because I probably would, I prefer designs that I've heard without feedback to be honest, so this would be a plus for me. I like having options, and this seems like a good one and would be a selling point for me.

And again, I have owned seven different Decware amps and they have been both push pull and single-ended and one allowed me to choose between triode and pentode operation. I've made a conclusion about Steve's skill at maintaining a homogeneity of excellent sonics across several different circuit design based on my experience with seven amps. (And other tube amps I've owned). You can dismiss it, but I think it's more facts and experience about Decware amps first hand than you have accumulated.  I think that there's truth to the fact that some of the amps have a bit of 'magic' others may not, but there are many reasons for that, from circuit design and layout to tube types and power supplies and it's not just 'purity of a signal path' etc. I don't see these improvements to the Mini Torii as taking away any of its magic, and I don't believe Steve would alter the model if it did.

My experience tells me that I don't think that adding the negative feedback selection will mar the dynamic ability of the amp in any way. I would not be surprised if Steve verifies that. I don't see the donwside--in fact this is likely to offer more benefits with no downside.

So I'm not attempting to prove you wrong, was offering my facts based on experience and not contesting with you. And I have no dog in the hunt of whether you decide to upgrade the amp or not. I have chosen not to upgrade in the past, and I've been a bit disappointed that Steve upgraded an amp after I bought mine but in the end I'm always offered a chance to "catch up" and it's my choice.

I find this new Mini Torii design more attractive for my needs than the first. I could consider one of these and a pair of the DNA Horns for a nice second system one day. Smiley Intriguing improvements to a proven amp. Way to go Steve.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/29/12 at 18:41:33 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #21 - 11/29/12 at 18:43:51
 
Like I said, until I don't get information to the contrary, that's my way of thinking, and I certainly respect your opinion.  I also stated that the option is good for other people.  :)

I consider the Mini Torii excellent the way it is, and just the Caps upgrade triggers my imagination at this point.
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #22 - 11/29/12 at 19:05:20
 
Okay. . . .
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Donnie
Seasoned Member
****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 667
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #23 - 11/29/12 at 22:43:49
 
Lon, Fireblade,
Come on guys, you're arguing about something that no one has heard.
I don't care if Steve puts a kazoo on a amp, until I hear it with my own ears, I will take it at his word.
Besides that, I am one big ugly guy that isn't above coming down to Austin or Panama and making you guys get along.
Back to top
 
 

Owner of the infamous RED TORII
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #24 - 11/29/12 at 23:35:03
 
I didn't know we were arguing.  Are we?  :o

You're right about your 'wait and see' attitude, Donnie.  But one has to consider pros and cons before deciding upon a mod, to avoid trial and error.  

Let's see what information we get eventually from the new amp's manual.  
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/29/12 at 23:39:46 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Clos1981
Verified Member
**




Posts: 8
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #25 - 11/29/12 at 23:53:38
 
Hi Fireblade,

I see from your info that you live in Panama.  If so, I should be getting  the new version of the Mini Torii delivered to me in Panama by late January.  If your near my area I'd be more than glad to drive over so that you can listen to the new Torii in your system and decide if the upgrade is worth it.  

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #26 - 11/30/12 at 01:19:27
 
Come on down Donnie and we'll misbehave together!

I was trying to say the same thing, I take Steve at his word. And I didn't think we were arguing.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 702
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #27 - 11/30/12 at 01:44:40
 
Small world, Carlos.  I would've never imagined there would be someone here sharing even the same model!  Especially not after the guy from Sound of Panama sweared in Panama nobody seems interested in tube amplification, so he does not even carry tubes in stock.

Anyway, I just replied to your earlier message in the general discussion thread in relation to your request.  No problem.  Send me a PM.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/30/12 at 01:47:22 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
BadWolf
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #28 - 01/27/13 at 21:18:22
 
I own a Mini Torii II so my impressions of it may be helpful. I've found the adjustable feedback extremely useful, especially for music with high gain guitar. Reducing the feedback just slightly really brings it out and makes it sound "right" for lack of a better term. As a guitarists I really appreciate this. I've also noticed that it helps some vocals and can breath life into weak productions.

I listen to a wide variety of music and generally I'll use the default feedback setting, however for about a third of my collection I'm finding the adjustable feedback a must. It could be useful for different speakers and rooms as well, though I haven't experimented with that yet. I'm not really sure about the concerns some have mentioned about it. Mini Toriis have always had feedback built in, the ability to adjust it is nothing but a plus to me, and makes an already wonderful amp way more versatile.

As for the Jupiter caps I can't really comment as I have nothing to compare them too. Though I'm thrilled that mine has them. The new wrinkle finish is very nice too.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7691
Re: NEW MINI TORII - VERSION II
Reply #29 - 01/27/13 at 21:59:14
 
Welcome BW!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print