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Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks (Read 12810 times)
orangecrush
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Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
11/20/12 at 23:54:17
 
Received my Ingress Audio Engineering Isolation Roller Blocks for my Anedio D2 Dac and also my Zu SuperFly Speakers.

One word: WOW. :)

This is the biggest tweak I have made to made system to date. They are also beautifully made and hand polished. For $65 per set of three standard roller blocks, they are a real bargain. Here are pics before I get to how they sound:

I ordered one set of three for my Dac shown here:




I also ordered 2 sets of four for my speakers with threaded holes on the top of the upper cups to thread into my speakers:




Here they with the threaded insert installed:




Upper cup threaded into the Zu SuperFly:




Installation complete:




Under the Anedio D2 Dac:




Another view:



Ok, they look good, how do they sound: Wow. When I said this is the single biggest tweak so far, I mean it. It is on par with the difference the Audiophilleo with PurePower made to my system. They are extremely neutral and not tone controls. There is a very noticeable increase of transparency and resolution, both high and low level detail. I also noted a more focused and cohesive sound stage, but more importantly for me, a much more fluid, organic and relaxed sound. No trace of the 'digital' harshness or edge that I cannot stand.

Interestedly, the improvement is very similar to the benefits of low jitter with the addition of the Audiophilleo and battery PurePower. That change was especially obvious for me with high resolution recordings. It made them sound glorious, so natural, organic, fluid and relaxed. I found compelled to listen to music louder then my CD quality music. Zero irritation for long listening periods. The Ingress Audio's Isolation Bearings has now brought my regular CD quality recordings up to almost the same level as my high rez music. I can no longer hear such a large difference between the two.

I am so impressed with these babies. The best $65 tweak, I have tried. It very cool is touch the speakers or dac and see them rock back and forth effortlessly. They feel like they hovering in mid air.

Mike is a pleasure to deal with and he gladly made custom threaded ones for my speakers for a small machining cost.

I have not tried them under the Torri yet, but somehow I think Herbies Iso-Cups just can't be beat for open chassis tube amplifiers. One day I will try them out. I think though, I will order another custom threaded set for my heavy Balanced Power Transformer. I never felt the standard spikes did much.

Here is the website: http://www.ingress-engineering.ca

I believe he offers generous return policy if you don't like them.
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« Last Edit: 11/21/12 at 00:00:33 by orangecrush »  
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Lon
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #1 - 11/21/12 at 00:15:26
 
Thanks for the pics and the info. I ordered two sets of three shortly after you did, and plan to put them under my speakers first to check them out. I have a sort of primitive roller set up under them now (Herbie's acrylic balls in automotive freeze plugs) and they have given me a similar sonic benefit that you describe. Mine have been in the mail long enough that I expect them any day.
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #2 - 11/21/12 at 00:32:45
 
Thats awesome Lon, I think you will really like them. Not sure how he makes money on these. I think they excel for digital components and speakers. Even though they are similar to Symposium RollerBlocks, Mike has put his own time and research into getting these just right.

The tried different spikes on my speakers and they all sounded harsher. I tried magnetic levitating feet and they sounded dead and dull. These do not seem alter the tone of the speakers, just increase the speakers resolution.

The threaded option for speakers makes it much easier to tweak speaker placement if you are by yourself.

Let me know if you try them on the Torii as I won't have any more time to play until the holidays. Have to go work to pay for all this stuff Cry

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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #3 - 11/21/12 at 00:52:08
 
Are they aluminum or steel?
Uncle Donnie has a week off and machine tools at his disposal.
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Lon
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #4 - 11/21/12 at 00:58:09
 
I agree that cones don't cut it, and I had Herbie's Gliders under the speakers for a while but wasn't really convinced they improved the sound, they did make them sound different. As I said, my rudimentary roller block attempts (inspired by the system engineer Barry Diament uses) do make a similar difference, not altering the tonal balance but smoothening and deepening the sound. I'll post my impressions.

Probably won't try them under the Torii or elsewhere if they make a noticeable difference under the speakers, I'm very happy with the Iso-Cups there. Probably in time will order a few more pairs to try under CSP2+ and ZP3 if I like what these do.
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Lon
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #5 - 11/21/12 at 01:01:06
 
Donnie, follow the link OC posted, they show a number of photos. The base pieces are aluminum, the ball bearings are steel.
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rockn
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #6 - 11/21/12 at 02:21:34
 
Those r sweet! Exactly what i was looking for. They really class up the speaker...and they sound good? Gotta give em a try. Thanks OC
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #7 - 11/21/12 at 02:36:25
 
He also offers tungsten carbide bearings for further experimentation.

I tried Herbies gliders as well, but was not wowed.
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« Last Edit: 11/21/12 at 02:38:02 by orangecrush »  
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tgarden
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #8 - 11/21/12 at 06:12:02
 
I was planning on ordering eight Herbie's gliders for my Decware MG944's,  but after reading this thread I'm not  interested in the gliders anymore.

Definitely will order eight of the Ingress Roller blocks in the near future.
Just debating if I should get them threaded with inserts? or not?

Mike in Seattle area
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #9 - 11/21/12 at 15:32:18
 
For large floor standing speakers the threaded inserts makes them much easier to work with. For bookshelf speakers I think you would not need them and the could just use 3 instead of 4.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #10 - 11/25/12 at 17:43:24
 
Still waiting for mine. . . Sad

Yesterday I removed my homemade roller bearing setup just to see what an impact it makes on the sound. Put them back in really quickly! They really do make a difference, and I'm eager to hear what the Ingress Audio roller blocks do under the same speakers (HR-1).

On a related isolation note I changed the interconnects I was using from ZP3 to CSP2+ from MAC Silver Quad + to my trusty old pair of TARA Labs RSC Reference. (Which was a very pleasing move). These form an arch between the two components because they are so stiff and rigid, and they sag apart a bit in the center of the arch. Just for grins I stuck a little isolation puck that I have from a Cambridge Audio DAC "Magic One" component I used to use in the gap between the two cables at the center of the arch. I noticed a subtle change, a tightening of the sound and a bit of bass warmth, welcome change. I wasn't sure I wasn't imagining it, but when my pal Dave was over last night I started with the puck out and when he went into the kitchen for a minute I slipped it in. About ten minutes later he said "What did  you do?" Well, he knows me, I like to do this sort of stuff from time to time, but he heard a bit of a change to the sound (we were listening to the Porcupine Tree "Anestethize" Blu-ray which is quite a hi-res sound). So. . . maybe this is something imagined. . . but it's a folie a deux.
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rockn
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #11 - 11/25/12 at 18:51:55
 
OC ,how thick r those? I know on the Superflys u r supposed to start with a 1/4 inch gap and go from there. They look thicker than that.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #12 - 11/25/12 at 18:57:49
 
Lon, Porcupine Tree? Nice, ive seen them live and they r awesome! Im still getting a hum in the speakers, not sure what to do.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #13 - 11/25/12 at 19:13:18
 
Is it possible that it's tube related? Is it coming through on both channels?
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #14 - 11/25/12 at 19:20:18
 
Rockn, it is one inch. With the tapered slots, floor gap is not a issue as long as you have a minimum of 1/4".

From 6 moons:

The Grieve loading always relied on a precise floor gap to function properly. The Essence circumvented possible user error by fixing the gap with its lacquered twin plinth. For the Soul, that detail was too complex. "The Soul instead has asymmetric slots on the bottom. The only requirement is that the cabinet sit at least 1/4 inch off the floor. We recommend and show long spikes since the Soul simply looks cooler when floating above the floor."
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« Last Edit: 11/25/12 at 19:57:43 by orangecrush »  
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rockn
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #15 - 11/25/12 at 19:20:56
 
Its both channels. This is only my second tube amp so im not sure. Im assuming the tubes that came with it r the best choice.
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rockn
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #16 - 11/25/12 at 19:29:27
 
Ok cool, thanks OC. Do u have any problem with any hum from your speakers with the tori? Was wondering since we have the same speakers.
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Lon
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #17 - 11/25/12 at 19:33:08
 
rockn wrote on 11/25/12 at 19:20:56:
Its both channels. This is only my second tube amp so im not sure. Im assuming the tubes that came with it r the best choice.


Interesting. . . well I have a little hum coming from my speakers but I have to be very close to them to hear it, and I generally don't hear it. Doesn't intrude or bother me.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #18 - 11/25/12 at 20:20:39
 
The Zu's have a very high efficiency of 101dB so you will hear a bit of hum, but even so, I have to be literally right at the speaker to be able to hear it. There is a slight transformer hum at Torri itself.

I have had two bad tubes that caused audible hum, hissing from the speakers but it was easy to pin point as it was only one channel, so I could swap tubes from one side to the other until I found the culprit.

What is your audio path? Try starting over with just the amp connected to the speakers and then start adding components one at a time. Also, plug everything in the same circuit if you can.
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #19 - 11/25/12 at 21:01:05
 
Could it be the tube in the iDecco? Since it has just one tube, you would hear it in both channels?
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #20 - 11/25/12 at 21:04:49
 
Good point.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #21 - 11/25/12 at 21:09:19
 
I posted earlier that when i power up the idecco, thats when the hum comes into play. It is audible when I'm right on top of it. Not that big a deal. I'll try some things as the days go by. Amp is breaking in nicely, had a good listening session Sat night, before i knew it it was 3:00am! Thanks guys.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #22 - 11/25/12 at 21:15:34
 
Most of the time i have the tube in the idecco powered off as this sounds better at times. Would it still be audible powered off? Something i could look into and maybe upgrade the tube while I'm  at it.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #23 - 11/26/12 at 20:17:29
 
After reading this post again, I apologize for getting off the subject. But I am putting in my order today with Ingress Audio!
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #24 - 11/26/12 at 20:23:58
 
Hey, the way I look at it, these are conversations and they aren't always just strictly on topic!

I wish I had the answer about your hum. Perhaps Steve might have some advice, it's worth calling about.
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #25 - 11/27/12 at 00:45:14
 
Cool, can't wait to hear your impressions.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #26 - 11/27/12 at 03:15:05
 
Rockn, just in case you order what I have, please note I ordered 1/4-20 threads because I use adapters thread adapters for my Zu's. I believe the Zu's come with 3/816 threads.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #27 - 11/27/12 at 05:26:53
 
OC, not sure i follow you, what are adapter thread adapters? Should i just go with 3/8 instead of 1/4 thread? I did mention you & the superflys and Mike said 1/4 thread. I think i better call him back.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #28 - 11/27/12 at 12:00:23
 
Still waiting on mine, shipped November 12.
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orangecrush
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #29 - 11/27/12 at 15:40:02
 
You need 3/8-16 (check Zu's website to be sure). I ordered 1/4-20 because I have some adapters that I needed to use with some other footers.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #30 - 11/27/12 at 16:17:52
 
Thanks OC, I'll do that.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #31 - 11/28/12 at 23:03:00
 
Received mine today. Very well made product. Sound is similar to the homemade roller situation I was using, if a bit brighter. Very open mid-range and sweet top end, where my setup differs is that there is a bit more of a lower midrange bloom that I am used to and dare say right now prefer. I need to play around with placement though.

My homemade solution cost me a total of 24 dollars, this cost 138 altogether. The problem with my homemade solution is that if you bump the speaker a bit it's all over, you have to do the set up again, a few minutes of not so much fun. As my best male friend and frequent listening and viewing partner struggles with cerebral palsy and needs a wide berth to get around due to the way my place is set up about one in twenty times he passes by they get bumped off their setup. I don't believe this will be the case with the Ingress items. Which will be nice, he'll be less embarrassed (though he shouldn't be) and I'll spend less time messing with the roller blocks.

Not sure I would use these under components, but I think they'll be nice under the speakers once I get them situated. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #32 - 11/29/12 at 00:15:14
 
Nice report Lon. Very interesting, as my low range tends to lean toward being a bit to heavy and even a tad muddy at times. The isolation bearings have proven to be excellent in this regard. They really tightened up the bass in my room.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #33 - 11/29/12 at 01:17:55
 
Well, I have an opposite problem, quite a lively room and bass has always been the thing i seek rather than temper. That said, these blocks have seated themselves in the carpet a bit more and I'm getting a little more of what I need. I think when I can I'll order another set and try that under my PS Audio Perfectwave Transport. I have to stack that on top of my Perfectwave DAC Mark II and I did have both of them on Herbie's Audio Lab Iso-Cups (with deep moss balls and the high-end bases) but recently found that the Transport sitting directly on top of the DAC with the feet removed it sounds almost identical, so I removed the Iso-Cups between them (they actually are made to be stacked this way if desired, there are five felt circles, one at each corner and one in the center, and there are little lips that fit over the wooden tops of each unit and secure the two together nicely). Between these two units would be a nice place to try these Roller blocks.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #34 - 11/30/12 at 06:11:17
 
Lon, the tungsten carbide bearings are supposed to deliver extreme low bass impact and definition and even less edginess. Not sure if it worth trying them or not.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #35 - 11/30/12 at 11:22:28
 
Interesting, Would be worth experimenting with sometime.

I found a speaker positioning that is nice, and I'm quite happy with the sound. All that I had with my homemade version and a bit more, plus more stable.
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« Last Edit: 11/30/12 at 11:23:16 by Lon »  

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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #36 - 11/30/12 at 12:37:05
 
I'm living dangerously and ordered another set, will use it either under my PWD Transport or DAC Mk II.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #37 - 11/30/12 at 13:12:57
 
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #38 - 11/30/12 at 14:12:04
 
Thanks Donnie. You're right, they're not cheap. I notice that Mike was at an audio show and was featuring ceramic balls as well, which makes sense as some claim some of these are harder still.

Right now very happy with the standard balls. It's not low bass impact I seek as much as it's a bit of mid and low bass emphasis perhaps. . . . But with a new speaker location the sound is pretty much tonally where i want it now. My homemade set up provided a bit more of this emphasis which didn't dull dynamics but did cloud detail just a smidgeon, which can be a good thing with most of the recordings I spin, but it's a fine line a lot of the time. Quite happy with these roller blocks, and the set up won't fall apart if bumped as my other set up does.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #39 - 11/30/12 at 14:27:15
 
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #40 - 11/30/12 at 15:26:58
 
Yes, they are.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #41 - 11/30/12 at 15:36:57
 
Mike sells the tungsten carbide bearings for $12 each. Symposium claims nothing is better and ceramic is very poor in comparison.

That's great you found a sweet spot Lon.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #42 - 11/30/12 at 16:22:24
 
How many are there for 65C?
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #43 - 11/30/12 at 16:30:10
 
A set of three.

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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #44 - 11/30/12 at 16:51:23
 

Are you using three under each speaker and finding it stable?
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #45 - 11/30/12 at 17:35:27
 
Yes, under the HR-1s: two in the front one in the back, stable. I see no need for four.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #46 - 11/30/12 at 17:55:20
 
orangecrush wrote on 11/30/12 at 15:36:57:
Symposium claims nothing is better and ceramic is very poor in comparison.


I'm happy with the balls supplied right now. It's funny, Nordost seems to love ceramic balls.
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #47 - 11/30/12 at 18:10:12
 
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #48 - 12/01/12 at 00:05:39
 
Couldn`t resist this from a happy customer from Donnies thread  :)
We all know how difficult it is finding quality tungsten carbide balls. You go to your local tungsten carbide ball store and pick one up off the shelf, only to get home and find that your tungsten carbide ball isn't round enough, or it's not shiny enough, or it's not tungsteny enough. And there would be wailing and the gnashing of teeth, "Why? Why, Lord, can't someone produce a decent tungsten carbide ball?" I can now report that the Almighty has heard your prayers, and behold, the Small Parts tungsten carbide ball, grade 25. If you put a Small Parts tungsten carbide ball on an inclined plane, believe me, it will roll down said plane. Those bargain brand tungsten carbide balls: who knows what they'll do? These little guys are stiffer than steel, denser than titanium, and make excellent Christmas stocking stuffers. Tungsten carbide rules!
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Re: Ingress Audio - Bearing Isolation Roller Blocks
Reply #49 - 12/01/12 at 00:22:14
 
I saw that too, funny! Grin

Regarding ceramic, I think in this application it would not be the best match for the aluminum cups as noted below.

Mike diamond polishes the Tungsten Carbide bearings so $12 is still a pretty fair price all things considered. Symposium charges far more!

From Symposium:
Similarly, listening tests in different systems with various components confirmed that Tungsten Carbide was the best ball bearing material. While many might assume that this is due to Tungsten Carbide's extreme hardness, Tungsten Carbide's excellent mechanical transmission qualities, which are close to aluminum, make it a better "match" to aluminum alloy and thus a better choice than ceramic balls (which have slightly greater hardness but inferior transmission characteristics) for preserving mechanical transmissivity through the entire Rollerblock structure, a primary design consideration.


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