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Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion (Read 16090 times)
Fireblade
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #15 - 10/30/12 at 18:01:43
 
Let me just say up-front that I do not have any experience with vibration control, except for spikes in floorstanding speakers I used to own back in the day, and at the time I could feel the difference when I had to remove those spikes temporarily, for some logistical reasons.

But, from the physics I studied back in the university, I would assume that trying to contain those vibrations (by limiting their natural discharge), is also bad for the sound, as these stay inside the body of the vibration source and accumulate to saturation.  

Limiting the natural release of vibration going to the floor or airborne, makes it stay in the component and ruin the vibration equilibrium achieved by the component's designer surrounding the signal (in electronic components) or the analog pathway (in speakers).

Now, sound is all about vibrations.  If it wasn't for it, we could not hear anything.  Of course, we would want to segregate the dissonant vibrations (or those mis-aligned with the music) from the actual original music source, but I find it difficult to achieve as end users.

I think that all vibrations coming out of audio equipment (electronics, tubes and drivers) are to be harnessed and/or channeled by design, so that those vibrations do not damage the final sound arriving to the listener.  It is not something you need the end user to take care of, nor is it really feasible.

This is completely different to aiming at diffussing the sound vibration (sound waves) hitting the walls, furniture and floor, in our listening room.  It is compulsory for us listeners to take care of this, as it usually stems from improper reflection pattern geometries cancelling or duplicating the original intended stereo sound distribution sequence arriving at our ears over time.

Before trying to isolate an audio component from its own emmitting vibrations, we need to take good care of the diffusion of that emmitted sound by room conditioning techniques.  Otherwise, I feel that we may be making the problem worse, adding cumulative vibrations (saturation) to the circuit boards, topology, chassis, driver oscilllation planes and speaker walls baffles, and resonance structures, for example.  This would also not correct the diffusion problems of a bad reflection pattern in the room.

Physics also tells us that once those contained leves of un-released vibrations (kinetic energy) arrive at saturation inside the component, they start to go airborne again, not solving the original problem and damaging the equilibrium in the emmitting components.  Not to mention the intrinsic life-span shortening of many of the components affected by this saturation wave.

I'm probably all wrong here, but this is what my reasoning takes me, intuitively.  I would just like to learn how to improve my beginner's conception on the matter, and be corrected where I'm wrong.  I recognize I still don't have an answer for the better results obtained by using spikes in the past.

Thanks, and please don't flame me if my views tend to be against the accepted thoughts on this issue!   Smiley
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 18:03:25 by Fireblade »  

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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #16 - 10/30/12 at 18:42:31
 
Actually, from my understanding, these isolation and decoupling pieces don't limit the release of the vibration but facilitate the removal of the vibration from the component.

It would be great if components were designed to have vibrations drained from them. I doubt many are at all.
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 18:48:40 by Lon »  

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HPDJ
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #17 - 10/30/12 at 18:49:25
 
Yes Marky, a decent power conditioner is in the cards for me..I have nothing to loose with a free in home demo.

And nice little article you shared Bob...interesting. I'm guessing some of the suggestions from the article would have less of an impact on my intimate desktop system, but it's something to keep in the back of my mind for sure Smiley
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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #18 - 10/30/12 at 18:56:34
 
Here's the thoughts of a recording engineer whose work I admire and who has given this idea a lot of thought, and his implementation. I've used a similar type of roller-cup footer under my loudspeakers to better effect than any cone, etc.

http://barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 20:11:26 by Lon »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #19 - 10/30/12 at 21:59:15
 
Lon,

Thanks for that link.  It made me understand that the vibration you want to isolate from the components come from the sound waves themselves, hitting floor and walls in the room and returning to the components.

The inner tube is a wonderfull idea, as it is a relatively large volume of air that can expand and contract freely through the rubber walls of the inner tube, therefore neutralizing the mini-sismic vibrations until these vanish by heating up the air inside the tube.

This also explains the spikes or the little feet on balls inside resin-filled cups, as the contact area is so small (and with a high absorption resin to further mitigate vibrations in the Iso-Cup case), presumably the vibration won't be able to get inside the component.  

The author of your link won't buy the last two solutions, assuming the resin and spikes are still too rigid (lacking sismic resonance) to avoid the vibrations to be transmitted through them.

I guess Herbie's reply to that would be based on the properties of that super absorbing resin and the small footprint.

This is an interesting topic, I wish I could replicate the ideas on your link.
 
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 22:00:55 by Fireblade »  

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HPDJ
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #20 - 10/30/12 at 22:12:51
 
Just read the article from your link Lon...the best part to me is ALL the way at the end when the author states that:

"Only when there is clean AC and proper cable routing has been attended to will the benefits of vibration isolation be evident".......just as I suspected haha..

Oh and also, funny how the author's home brewed isolation device sounds a lot like the iso cups that Hebie's offers...sounds like a fun project but I'm not much of a DIY'er really. I was impressed that I was able to change the power outlet in my room! The things we do to increase our listening enjoyment huh? Smiley

I DID try an aftermarket power cord a few months ago from a new company that was getting some great write ups and they had a different approach to their cables etc etc...it was a loan from a dealer and I tried it on each of my components and noticed no difference. My girlfriend even listened and heard nothing. She didn't even know what I was changing every time I told her to close her eyes as I switched the PC from one thing to the next and also tried taking it out of the mix completely.  And I have a good aftermarket outlet and a great power strip from VH Audio.....maybe I won't notice the difference until ALL my gear has a better PC than the stock one....I'll report back for sure. Smiley
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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #21 - 10/30/12 at 22:40:29
 
David, I've tried the inner tube and it did "something" but . . .my late wife didn't like the looks of the darned thing and I started with Mapleshade and then Herbie's products. . . which improved the sonics far more than an inner tube, or the
"sand boxes" I'd tried, And Helen liked the looks.

I've had a bit of dialog via another forum with Diament and he's an interesting person.
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 22:47:29 by Lon »  

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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #22 - 10/30/12 at 22:46:26
 
HPDJ wrote on 10/30/12 at 22:12:51:
Just read the article from your link Lon...the best part to me is ALL the way at the end when the author states that:

"Only when there is clean AC and proper cable routing has been attended to will the benefits of vibration isolation be evident".......just as I suspected haha..

Oh and also, funny how the author's home brewed isolation device sounds a lot like the iso cups that Hebie's offers...sounds like a fun project but I'm not much of a DIY'er really. I was impressed that I was able to change the power outlet in my room! The things we do to increase our listening enjoyment huh? Smiley

I DID try an aftermarket power cord a few months ago from a new company that was getting some great write ups and they had a different approach to their cables etc etc...it was a loan from a dealer and I tried it on each of my components and noticed no difference. My girlfriend even listened and heard nothing. She didn't even know what I was changing every time I told her to close her eyes as I switched the PC from one thing to the next and also tried taking it out of the mix completely.  And I have a good aftermarket outlet and a great power strip from VH Audio.....maybe I won't notice the difference until ALL my gear has a better PC than the stock one....I'll report back for sure. Smiley


I do think there's some truth to the fact that having addressed the power situation will allow you to have a clarity that will allow you to hear the benefits of these isolation/coupling or decoupling devices.

The "roller" feet that Diament makes are not really like Iso-Cups. He told me on another forum that because the Iso-Cup ball doesn't move and the cup allows no travel he doesn't agree that it's the same method that he's had so much success with. Though he hadn't heard the Iso-Cup he didn't think it would sound the same. The roller feet that I have come up with under my speakers (though not quite like Diaments, similar to his, they don't have a wooden base as that would raise the tweeter level too high for my seating) are different than the Iso-Cups, and the sound is a bit different, possibly mostly because of the tweeter height difference.
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« Last Edit: 10/30/12 at 22:59:02 by Lon »  

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Donnie
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #23 - 10/30/12 at 23:46:07
 
I know that Lon had touched on another part of this complex equasion. The effect of the stand or table or whatever your equipment is sitting on. My Torii is sitting on a 4" thick Maple shelf on top of Mahogany legs. I would think that the mass of the hunk of wood would help damp out a lot of unwanted vibration. My subwoofer also sits on a 6" thick hunk of Maple, maybe helping absorb some vibrations from being transfered into the floor?
I'm toying with the idea of using some carbide cutting inserts to try coupling my DAC with the desk below. Carbide has a lot of mass, if that doesn't work I will try decoupling it with bouncy balls from the buck store. Onward and upward!
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marky
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #24 - 10/31/12 at 00:15:14
 
I went for a diffusion solution and have a 7 1/2 ft x 6ft cross hatched accoustic foam pannels behind me and 4  4 1/2 x 1 1/2 ft pannels along the side walls with 2 bass dumpers in the corners behind the speakers.
Not pretty, one day I`ll cover them with a very thin material that sound will pass through. It`s not the front room at least. As there would be no furniture etc in the room apart from the seating I went for it.

I did that after reading about accoustically dead rooms, and trying to stop pathways for sound to bounce around to go where it wants to, rehitting your ears milliseconds after the initial sound. If you want reverberation it should be on the recording.

You`ve probably all got this sorted...things on walls...drapes...furniture...irregular shaped rooms...and big houseplants
are supposed to be very good.

Vibration control is something I`ve only payed lip service to,
placing sorbathane squares under everything. The way I read it was
that all sound dampers are just that. They take the ( if you expand it to
one bump ) bump and return to original state very slowly, so as to absorb and not resonate.
I guess the more you pay and the bigger the proprietry materials used
the more area they have to soak up and release vibrations leaving equipment stable.


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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #25 - 10/31/12 at 00:56:15
 
Donnie, yes I really love wood and I have components on 2" or 4" maple platforms on 2" maple shelves on my main rack and thinner cedar or maple stands on my TV and phono stands. A good start to good sound.

Marky, I envy being able to use diffuser panels and make a really controlled audio environment that way. Sorbothane is commonly used, though Steve Herbelin mentions often that he has found it to not be sonically neutral and doesn't recommend its use. It's been so long since I had any around I haven't been able to do any comparisons.

There are so many ways to deal, or not deal, with this situation. Thanks for weighing in.
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orangecrush
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #26 - 10/31/12 at 06:19:14
 
I love isocups on my Torii. I want to try these on my Dac:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649019589-rollerblock_bearing_isolation_s...

Cheaper than Symposium and get good feedback.
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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #27 - 10/31/12 at 12:24:46
 
Yes, I think the Iso-Cups work wonders on the Torii. Thanks for posting that link, those look very interesting.
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Lon
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #28 - 10/31/12 at 13:18:30
 
Interestingly, PS Audio is working on a new product (about to go out to "beta testers") that is an isolation base for up to two components (45 pounds total weight) and also a power conditioning unit with two outlets. So you can put components on top, plug them in and enjoy clean power and benefits from vibration control. Should be a cool item. No more details yet.
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JD
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Re: Herbie's Audio Lab products discussion
Reply #29 - 10/31/12 at 15:32:42
 
Curious to know peoples opinion on audio furniture companies that people have had good luck with.  Currently have my torii III on a core audio black maple amp stand and love it.  Their racks are pretty pricey though.  I've looked at steve blinn's designs and others but wasn't sure if someone else is making similar products at a lower price point.  WHat are you guys using?
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