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Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure (Read 5865 times)
marky
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #15 - 10/29/12 at 15:53:11
 
Because prints can hard to read-disappeared I number all of my tubes with a small square of sticky label, then enter details into a tube log.
I give tubes a decent run, maybe a couple of weeks ,2-3 hours, a day, and it`s not until that thought occurs that I decide with my own logic to have a swop round, even though tubes may not be fully burned in, or I am enjoying what I`m hearing.
Not the most scientic approach I agree,..but fun and the knoledge that you still have "that tube/s" in your locker.
 Syd.
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will
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #16 - 10/29/12 at 16:05:43
 
I prefer the 12AT7s in my Zstage over 12AU7, particularly I like two early 60s Brinmar and a 50's Siemens with a square getter. The 6N1P, 6922, 6DJ8 type tubes are way too heavy handed for me in the Zstage. It will be interesting to see how you like the 12AT7...I expect that to be a big change.

Fun on the horizon!
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Lon
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #17 - 10/29/12 at 16:16:34
 
The web site says that 12AU7 is the designed tube. It's very interesting that you have a 6N1P (love that tube type as well) as I haven't found them to be interchangeable in any circuit I've had. So I wonder if your amp is wired differently to accommodate the 6N1P. Curious! I hope the 12AT7 will work.

I personally haven't encountered distortion problems with the 12AU7. In the places I currently use them (DEC685 and ZBox) the 12AT7 has far too much gain and the sound is far too bright and forward for my tastes.
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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #18 - 10/29/12 at 16:20:10
 
Thanks for sharing those thoughts, Syd.  

That sounds about 50 hrs of settlement, consistent with what has been indicated in this forum as the expected basic break-in horizon.

It definitely must help to have documented reference on your tube findings.  After all, I imagine rolling several in sequence (with the respective burning periods) ought to create some confusion due to their interactions (aside from worn label printings).

I'll take advantage of your suggestions, thanks.
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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #19 - 10/29/12 at 16:28:21
 
Will,

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the experience.  Who nows how those input Brimars are going to behave with the rest of my rig, but at least there are consistent positive reports on them, and one in particular (Les's) as it is on the same amp's context.

The Brimars I'm getting are also from 50's-60's England.  I'll let you guys know how I like them.
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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #20 - 10/29/12 at 16:38:36
 
Lon,

That is one of my concerns.  I would not have decided to get them due to the highish gain reasons you indicate (also as per Steve's comments).  But I had this positive feedback, and the tubes were readily available, so I felt like giving them a try.

Sometimes the brand and build quality make major differences, as I've read, so a first-hand relevant positive testimony was hard to ignore.

I wish Steve would shed some light on the reasons behind the 6N1P-Ev in the Mini driver's seat (pun intended!).
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Lon
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #21 - 10/29/12 at 17:01:30
 
Sure, brand and build can make a difference, but if they're in spec, gain is gain. Anyway, like you I'd be interested to hear Steve's take on this. I know 12AT7 would work if 12AU7 is the tube the circuit was designed for. . . but 6N1P? Would seem too much gain.  I know the reverse is true, if a circuit is designed for 6N1P types, 12A types don't work.
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« Last Edit: 10/29/12 at 17:30:33 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #22 - 10/29/12 at 17:57:48
 
Quote:
That is one of my concerns.  I would not have decided to get them due to the highish gain reasons you indicate (also as per Steve's comments).  But I had this positive feedback, and the tubes were readily available, so I felt like giving them a try.


I think you will be fine FB. When you listen to the Brinmars you will know.

I originally thought you would have been using 12AU7s, but since you are using 6N1P, and as you say, the individual tube makes a big difference in terms of how the sound is presented and feels....but generally my guess is that the Brinmar 12AT7 will open things up a bit in the low mids and tighten the bass...perhaps meeting your previous idea of where you wanted your sound to go.

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« Last Edit: 10/29/12 at 17:58:57 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #23 - 10/29/12 at 19:01:42
 
Will, I hope you're right.  That's part of what I'm looking for with this rolling thing:  Openness, more air (les density) and transparency, to compensate for a current sound a bit on the warm side.

I'd probably have to find the best (among the available tubes on hand, that is) rectifier partner for these Brimars.  Then, I can still play with the OD3 output regulator tubes, which are supposed to also open up a bit.

Finally, I expect to give those Svetlana's and Tung Sol's a chance to show what they can do in this stew.  I'm assuming I won't be challenging the existing circuit design with the various slight deviations in specs involved, especially with the Brimars (gain) and the EZ80's (90 mA vs 150 mA).

Seems not unlike a cooking recipe or chemical formula, just stash in the ingredients, let them cook and give it a taste to correct excesses.  If it does not work, change the recipe and start over ...  ;)

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« Last Edit: 10/29/12 at 19:03:26 by Fireblade »  

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judy
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #24 - 11/01/12 at 09:24:20
 
great  ;D
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Les Lammers
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #25 - 11/02/12 at 00:16:33
 
"Finally, I expect to give those Svetlana's and Tung Sol's a chance to show what they can do in this stew.  I'm assuming I won't be challenging the existing circuit design with the various slight deviations in specs involved, especially with the Brimars (gain) and the EZ80's (90 mA vs 150 mA).

Seems not unlike a cooking recipe or chemical formula, just stash in the ingredients, let them cook and give it a taste to correct excesses.  If it does not work, change the recipe and start over ...  ;)"

David,

I would burn in the Brimars with the Russian 6V6's, OA2's and the OD3. Do not listen critically...think low volume elevator music. Give them 50 hours. Swap the EZ80's and EZ81's occasionally during the above. Once the Brimars open up...experiment with the rest of the tubes and tell us what you think.

Have fun,

Les
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« Last Edit: 11/02/12 at 00:17:00 by Les Lammers »  
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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #26 - 11/02/12 at 00:47:06
 
Hey Les,

Your proposed method ensures the fastest break-in period as all would be cooking at the same time.  Since the Brimars take the longest, by the time they are ready all will.  Makes sense.

I thought I would go one at a time, starting with the rectifiers while still able to listen to some real music, but you're right.  It's the fastest path to start the experiment.  The first 24 hrs will be just iddle filament heating, and then on with 'offensive-sounding' music playing.

Can I just leave the thing going on 24/7 or should I apply the 5 hrs on and 5 hrs off rule?  It would be a lot faster just leaving it on 'repeat' or something (at low volumes), if it won't damage anything.   What's the ideal volume setting in this period?

Thanks for the suggestion.
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Les Lammers
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #27 - 11/03/12 at 00:59:27
 
Dave,

I would leave the amp on when you are home and turn it off when you leave or go to bed.

Les
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will
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #28 - 11/03/12 at 02:09:33
 
FireBlade,

To me Lord Soth's 24 hour run without music makes some sense on a new tube (though N in NOS means new, apparently, many tubes called NOS may not be brand new) ... running hot for this period might cause the metals and glass to work into their proper alignments and relationships.

Then, it seems most say that music is necessary to burn them in...leaving them on without music, mainly just putting life on them.

I can't quite imagine the 5 on 5 off thing being as beneficial for tubes as caps, but seems flexing the materials, expanding and contracting, and vibrating into their new role...on and off could make sense in burn in. I really can't say. But Les' idea of having the amp on in the day and off at night would do this if it is beneficial.

In my experience, Rectifiers and VRs tend to burn in faster and not have as bad a nature before burn in as inputs and power tubes can. And some inputs and even power tubes are not even that bad after 5-10 hours. Some are worse, as Les says your Brimars are. In my experience warmer tubes tend to be harder to get to open up.

I find Power tubes the worst, taking anywhere from 90-300 hours to really come in, again, the warmer tubes taking longer to show their detail qualities in a smooth and complete way, generally working from the top down, the bass resolution coming last. But these are EL34s, and I don't know how this relates to the MT power tubes.

The reason I talk about all this is that it might help with your tube play strategy. One point being, some tube types, and also some individual tubes, especially brighter ones, can sound tolerably good pretty fast, finally getting refined with time.

And the other point...with the right tube set combination/synergy, you can get really OK sound with even two or three newish tube pairs.

You will feel it out, but burnin will likely not be bad, and even quite good if you play your combinations well.

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« Last Edit: 11/03/12 at 02:10:38 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Converging Tube-Rolling Procedure
Reply #29 - 11/03/12 at 04:24:20
 
Les,

I agree, also because it's plain safer, isn't it? So long as it doesn't harm anything, I'll keep it working for long periods at a time.  Thanks!

Will,

I see your points.  I was resigned to not being able to listen to 'real' music until break-in, but as you say, there may be ways to circumvent this.  The point is, though, I need to pair the new drivers to the new rectifiers from the start, and apparently (as pointed by Les), those Brimars are hard to 'cook.'

So, at least for the first week to ten days, I won't be able to enjoy the music.  After that, it will depend on how fast the new russian output tubes team up with the new rectifiers and regulators, to maybe make music somewhat more tolerable in spite of the still raw Brimars .  We'll see.

Thanks to both of you for the valid input and interest.
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« Last Edit: 11/03/12 at 04:32:13 by Fireblade »  

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