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The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode (Read 4840 times)
Mark
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The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
09/29/12 at 17:36:03
 
I would like people's opinions concerning using the 6DJ 8 preamp tubes to drive the front end of the Zen Triode Amplifier...

Some websites say that you need a particularly strong version of this tube to work right without an early failure... There's a lot of lore out there concerning this tube, and I'd like to seperate the wheat from the chaff on this issue...

I will say, that to date, a '59 Amperex Bugle Boy 6 DJ 8 with 'D' getter wins the prize for the most musical overall (so far)... I have about a dozen different driver tubes for the Zen, and I can pick this one out blindfolded every time... Liquid and musical... There may be better, and that's part of the purpose of this thread...

So, there we are... (m.)
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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #1 - 09/30/12 at 11:40:20
 
I have RCA,Sylvania, tungsol,GE< and Orange amperex. havent tried a Bugle boy. the best advice i can give is alway go back to the stock tube ,and ask yourself .is it really better. So far, for me,  its been a waist of money. Did this with rectifiers too. so I have alot of extra tubes , not nessessarily better tubes. it is fun to experiment though!!!!
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Mark
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #2 - 09/30/12 at 14:00:56
 
I've listened to both sides of the story on this issue, and I think it all depends on what the individual can hear... And also the program material...

Some [tube] comparisons tell a story right off for me... Others are more subtle... I think the more weak links I take out of my system, the more likely I am to hear a difference in driver tubes... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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sberger
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #3 - 09/30/12 at 14:20:57
 
Exactly. Rolling tubes isn't necessarily always about being better, but about changing flavors. As I posted in the Torii thread one of the coolest things to me about Decware stuff is how easy it is to tailor the sound to one's desire on any given day, any given moment. Do you need to buy a bunch of expensive tubes to get the best from the amps? Of course not. Steve certainly knows what he is doing. On the other hand, his tasted might not be yours. Having a choice in the matter is what makes this so much fun(to me) and/or maddening to others.

FWIW I agree with Mark about that Bugle Boy 6DJ8. Swell tube.
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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #4 - 10/05/12 at 10:59:15
 
you guys have me curious ,so I'm getting a couple from a friend . Rca ,made in holland ,and picked up 2 on ebay bugle boys all markings . more to come. Happy decfest for those who are going
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will
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #5 - 10/05/12 at 16:07:00
 
In my system with the Torii as amp, I have tried lots of input tubes, and for my tastes the 6N1P is a nice sounding tube, but near the bottom of the NOS tubes I have. How this relates to the Zen Triode, I can't say, and obviously there are those who disagree with this for the Torii. Also, I have a lot of nice NOS tubes for comparators.

For me, the Torii is very tolerant of changes because you can adjust the bass and treble knobs to fine tune and you can change the Voltage Regulator tubes for more refining to taste.

I agree with Mark and sberger...to Mark's thought, I would add that within a given person's sound perception, in my experience, what we are able to hear is also based heavily in system/room characteristics. Over time, as my room and system have become more refined, I can both hear clearly any little change (ICs, Power cords, tubes, damping feet, even foot placement is clear etc), but also, about any tube set can sound good. Then with a little mixing and matching, about any tube I have can sound great!

But I do gravitate toward a certain range of sound with deep but refined bass (balancing clarity with body); open midrange with a slight warmth, texture, and lushness; and extended, but smooth highs.

Within this, as sberger speaks to, changing it up is a really fun and engaging, and I find the variations are endless and exciting. It can be a nice awakening to the subtle qualities of the sound and a deeper view in into the musical experience. But it can (sometimes) take changing the rectifier after the input to find balance. So I would think a small range of good rectifier variations along with the inputs could really help with tube rolling in the Triode.

I do have a lot of tubes, but lately, I find I mostly change rectifiers and inputs, with the power VR a nice tuning device to open it up or make it more dense if needed.

Also the tube Mark is talking about is the most respected Bugle Boy made...the late 50's D getter. I have not heard it, but my assumption is that it is a very, very good tube, and that the 60's BBs with hallow getters are good tubes, but not the same.

That said, in comparison with the 6N1P in my system, the early 60's Bugle boy is a good variation. It has similar warmth, more inner detail, texture, and sparkle, but a bit less bass density.

My favorite 6DJ8 today is a Mullard A-frame pull from parts connexion (I think they say they are near new..like less than 10% used) and it doesn't break the bank. It is  balanced top to bottom, has an amazing warmth and lushness without detail sacrifice, excellent detail retrieval, excellent dynamics (micro and macro)... and smooth highs (that is in the Torii). I tend more toward transparent warmth than darkish warmth myself. If the tube creates the "warmth" without the subtle inner details that bring out the subtleties and textures of the instrument/voice, and also the ambient spaciousness, I miss this aspect of  the "atmosphere," with its heightened sense of players in the room. For me, in my system, this tube has a lot of warmth, but it is refined warmth that is alive and atmospheric. Note: this is with a very open rectifier...

If anyone looks into these I would call, they had both A-frames and large hallow getters in this sale lot when I got mine, and they are not necessarily matched unless you ask.

All that said, I listen more to 7DJ8s than anything these days.
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« Last Edit: 10/05/12 at 21:24:30 by will »  

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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #6 - 10/11/12 at 13:55:14
 
Day 3 of having a bugle boy in my zen amp . I must say  this tube is very good , inner detail that i must say surpasses the 6n1p , better attack , but yet not overwhelming , just ordered a D getter ,as my comments are from a halo getter...... excellent tone also........ THANKS
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JD
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #7 - 10/11/12 at 15:12:38
 
I have found my favorite "so far" to be an telefunken 7dj8's.
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Les Lammers
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #8 - 10/11/12 at 17:58:11
 
A post from another forum.

About six years ago I purchased an integrated SET amp that used 12AU7s for preamp section. Obviously I wanted the "BEST" 12AU7 I could get for this amp. I wasn't that knowledgable at that time on the 12AU7 family, as I am now, so I asked the same question you just did, i.e., " What's the best 12AU7 tube?" As you can imagine I got the usual response buy: Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken, Siemens or Valvo.

Not knowing better, I quickly tried these different suggested tubes. However much to my surprise I wasn't satisfied with what I heard. I soon realized it was my ears I had to make happy, not anyone elses. To that end I set off to try almost every variation of the 12AU7 tube I could find: (12AU7A, 12AU7WA, 5814, 5814A, 5963, 6067, 6189, 6680, 6CC40, 7489, 7730, CK5814, CV491, ECC82, E82CC, ECC802, ECC802S and M8136) Not only did I try all these different variations, I tried as many different manufactuer's versions of these variations as well by: (Amperex, Brimar, Cifte, Electro Harmonics, GE, Mazda, Mullard, Phillips, RCA, RFT, RT, Siemens, Sylvania, Telefunken, Tesla, Tungsram & Tungsol) Nor did I stop there, because I was looking for the very best, I also tried every different color (black, gray and chrome/silver/nickel) and type of plate (both long/short/box/ribbed etc)

What I discovered was this. The tubes so many other people cited as being "THE BEST" simply weren't when used in my amp! I found it was actually the Mazda 6189/E82CC/12AU7WA "chrome plate" that sounded the best ---in my amp. It was much better than the highly touted Siemans "chrome-plate" or the much loved Amperex "bugle boys" or any Mullard I could find, yes even the 10M. The Mazda's were followed quite closely by the East German RFT 12AU7 yellow letter "mickey mouse ears." These two tubes blew all the other 12AU7's away when used in my amp , period.

What I'm getting at is the ONLY people who might actually honestly be able to help you would be:

1) people who own your amp --they know what the different tubes sound like in that amp.
2) people who listen to music you listen to --if you listen to New Age and another listens to Heavy Metal you're probably looking for different sonic qualities in a tube and every other component.
3) people who listen for what you listen for in music --even if you listen to the same music if one person focuses on soundstaging and you focus on PRaT, you might prefer different tubes.

Basically, you'll need to discover for yourself what's "THE BEST" 12AU7-type tube for you, in your amp, when you're listening to the music you love. Trust me on this, NO TUBE sounds the same in every amp. That may not help a lot but at least it's honest...
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I'll add that the rare = expensive tubes are not always the best sounding in yours or my system. You have to experiment and sometimes a run of the mill tube can be the 'silver bullet'.
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JD
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #9 - 10/11/12 at 18:19:57
 
Great post Les well said.
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Les Lammers
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #10 - 10/11/12 at 21:17:53
 
Hi JD,

Thanks. I have tried a lot of tubes over the past 20 years or so and found the above to be quite true. Also, the supply of the revered/touted tubes is getting low and prices are very high. There are 4 Telefunken ECC802S tubes on fleabay with a buy it now price of...$2200.   Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: 10/11/12 at 21:20:30 by Les Lammers »  
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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #11 - 10/12/12 at 02:50:47
 
Please,please,please always go back to the stock tubes. theres somebody in East peoria that has a great set of ears ,and you can hear that with the stock tubes.......this is not my idea , but go to a Rite Aid ,buy the Dentek small brushes and some alcohol and clean all your dirty tube sockets and tube pins , no fault of anyone but they were probably dirty from new, yes new, anal, yes! does it make a difference ,yes.Will save you a ton of money. will I still seek out other tubes yes its fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mark
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #12 - 10/12/12 at 14:31:33
 
Some good comments here... To this I would add, to note that any comparison with the 6N 1P tube vs. a vintage tube must take into account the hours on the vintage tube... Admittedly, I've been comparing the 6N1P to older tubes with at least a couple hundred hours on them already... That's because I'm on a budget, and buy only used tubes...

I have found some rather good Sylvania 6DJ 8s, and one Mullard... But in the end, you can't judge a tube by the numbers or even brands... You've got to listen... I listen almost exclusively to classical CDs...

I think I've developed a pretty good ear as a pianist, and also having done my fair share of recording  on some reasonably good gear... But even that is not the gold standard... The gold standard is how our own ears perceive the system we have, playing the program material we like... (m.)

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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Lon
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #13 - 10/12/12 at 14:42:44
 
I've experimented with 6DJ8 tubes and really never found one that does the job for me. The 6N1P tube type has been the one I've gravitated to over the years and I've just held steady with those and built my rectification and regulation and power tube choices around them.
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will
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #14 - 10/12/12 at 15:05:29
 
Clearly how a part sounds is finally taste/system/system synergy/room and music tastes if our listening is strictly of a type. I actually listen to a broad range of music, and my system sounds great with all.

And Steve has a great ear and is very skillful at amp design and implementation. In this, he has a very good sense of how to make an amp sound (and act) natural and transparent with as few parts as possible to influence or bias the sound. This makes his amps very tolerant of quality tube changes. And...Steve can't easily supply less common NOS or OS tubes in his production even if he were to like them better.

As far as tube information, it is surely subjective, but if we work to carefully compare tubes to a standard tube, tube traits-to-tube traits (in this case 6N1P to 6DJ8s) we can get a good sense of what the 6DJ8 might do with our own amp, then decide if it sounds like something we might like.

How else can we learn from one another...presumably the purpose of a forum like this???
Wink
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Mark
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #15 - 10/12/12 at 16:06:54
 
If anyone's interested, I do have a fairly objective test for fidelity-- and please don't roll your eyes on this one:  It's the resin on a bowstring... That's right... that 'pulling' sound you can only get if a single bowed string sounds right, assuming the recording is good...

I can pick it out right away, that is, if it sounds right... The BB 6DJ8 'D' getter gets it right every time for me on my system, that is the Zen triode with my Tang Band back loaded single-driver horn speakers... Admittedly, with a CD player as source...

Also, the piano... Any coloration is immediately apparent to me on my system... If the timbral accuracy and pitch isn't just right, I grimace... By the nature of the length of the piano strings, the bottom should bloom wide and full, the mids should be somewhat thinner and well defined, and the highs should be rather thin sounding...

On soundstage: A system's soundstage shouldn't sound any different than, well, a real stage... To my way of thinking, it shouldn't sound any bigger, or wider, than when you're listening to a live concert in a good venue...

It's all mater of scale... I don't want a 12 foot wide contrabass, or any other instrumentation sounding bigger than it really is...

(m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Lon
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #16 - 10/12/12 at 17:50:57
 
So much is dependent on source, speaker, room. . . it's good to have some sort of personal reference for fidelity.

I mainly use band tapes I made in my then garage apartment at the end of the 'eighties. I know the room (I lived in it), the players, the equipment, the mics and tape deck. This has been a godsend for evaluation for me. Otherwise I too listen for piano, and contrabass violin, two instruments I know well from playing and listening. And I  hate an enlarged sound stage, though that's almost as often on the recording as not in my experience.
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marky
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #17 - 10/12/12 at 19:36:54
 
I find that the more my system improves the more I`m drawn into the art of the...drummer. He has so many sounds emanating from his  kit, and I hear deft touches on the cymabals, quiet rolls, timbre, the psssssp of the h/hat that all sound clearer and more enjoyable. He seems to be the last player to be uncovered clearly.
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Les Lammers
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #18 - 10/12/12 at 19:39:42
 
Mark,

I understand completely. Once the sound is 'right' that is where tube rolling stops.

Les
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will
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #19 - 10/12/12 at 20:08:46
 
Quote:
Once the sound is 'right' that is where tube rolling stops.


Not for me! With a good selection of each tube type, I have loads of flavors of "right." In fact, VERY Right! And each change up shifts the presentation enough for a new and exciting period of deep and enjoyable listening...a musical experience that opens a new depth of enjoyment, partly due to the new awareness it sparks into the inner qualities of the music!

Cool
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« Last Edit: 10/12/12 at 20:14:07 by will »  

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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #20 - 10/13/12 at 12:20:48
 
get in your car , go for a ride  with the windows  down  come home and listen again . It will all sound different.
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marky
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #21 - 10/14/12 at 09:49:25
 
The penny has recently dropped for me that the used tube figures, ie 90/88 is the condition of the two halves of the stereo tube, and not some kind of overal score system which had me puzzled.  :) ( Funny `cause I studied valve cicuits at tech college, but it was that time when transitors and chips had precedence) Thankfully the used tubes I`ve bought are within a couple %.
Given the price differences between NOS and used tubes is there a cut off % figure beyond which you wont buy because of channel imbalance or you know your`ll hear the difference. Syd ..ps there have been and still are lots of t/funken au7/ax7`s on fleabay.
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« Last Edit: 10/14/12 at 13:33:46 by marky »  

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jameskk
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #22 - 10/16/12 at 13:56:20
 
Ok now you got my attention, to bad it takes a 65 year old tube for the zen to sound its best ........
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Lon
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #23 - 10/16/12 at 16:21:07
 
I understand why will likes to keep rolling tubes. But I like to stop when I have a set that works best for most of my sources and recordings and just then swim in the music in that pool of sound.

It fascinates me how the input tube and rectifier tube interact, that seems to be the key to the whole game to me, with regulation tubes being important afterwards. I settle on an input tube and then work to find a rectifier that best complements it. I've really run into something that I hadn't expected rolling tubes in the CSP2+: one 5Y3GT sounds head and shoulders more "right" than others, or 5U4G types, the Valve Audio 274B (probably my least favorite of those tried) etc. Will be interesting to see how my other 5Y3GT tubes on hand sound in my upcoming ZP3.
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will
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #24 - 10/16/12 at 17:50:11
 
Lon, I understand your way too. Seems the difference is that your goal is on a specific path of refinement that works best with your large selection of music...and mine is a specific path too in terms of sonic goals, but provides for a range of sounds that work best with my selection of music. This "range" is actually pretty narrow in a macro sense, but within the context of subtle details, it has endless variations that I absolutely love.

I am also fascinated with the Regulator/Input relationship. I can definately imagine that the 5Y3GT is a synergistic tube in your CSP2+ within your system and goals. Especially for a pre it makes sense to me, comparatively, the tube type generally having a very open and spacious sound that is also warm and textural and not in the face in terms of broad or big dynamics, but pleasingly dynamic none-the-less. Seems perfect conceptually for a pre, and then the Torii can do its magic to a very pleasing CSP treatment...

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« Last Edit: 10/16/12 at 17:52:14 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: The 6 DJ 8 driver tube and the Zen Triode
Reply #25 - 10/16/12 at 18:39:02
 
Well, it's also the tube that the webpage says this preamp is designed around, which means it would be the tube I'd most be inclined to use. 5U4G and 274B seem to exaggerate image and sound stage in this preamp. I'm not into that. They also don't seem to have the tonal accuracy I want, which may be ic and pc related as well.

What gets me is that one particular tube clearly outshines the other 5Y3GT tubes I have. I've had it a long time, still has plenty of juice. I'm hoping to keep it in use a long time.
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« Last Edit: 10/16/12 at 19:13:04 by Lon »  

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