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Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks (Read 6743 times)
Steve Deckert
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Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
09/03/12 at 03:06:27
 

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #1 - 09/03/12 at 03:10:13
 




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Steve Deckert
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #2 - 09/03/12 at 03:11:58
 



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« Last Edit: 09/03/12 at 03:12:19 by Steve Deckert »  
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #3 - 09/03/12 at 03:31:40
 
The Mono's look great to me!    I wonder how they will compare to a V-capped Torii III?

It's interesting how few tubes they use.  I'm pretty certain I will be ordering a pair as soon as they become available (depending on the price, of course!) Smiley.

Mike in Seattle area

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #4 - 09/03/12 at 04:14:50
 
Magic leaking out - yes, that's right... screw the camera. I put the memory card up to my third eye (forehead) and just as expected ~ a picture of exactly what I saw appeared on the card.  This is the picture:



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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #5 - 09/03/12 at 15:33:56
 
Looks fascinating. I"m off the "amp merry go round" with my Torii Mk III and Mk II, but for those who might need more power or those not yet Torii owners, another great option on the horizon!
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #6 - 09/03/12 at 15:57:36
 
Also. . . an option for exceptional (and expensive!) home theater for those who are into that and can afford it. (Maybe there's a few. I haven't won the Lottery yet).

Can you imagine 5.1 with an Ultra and all those Torii Monos?
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« Last Edit: 09/03/12 at 15:57:51 by Lon »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #7 - 09/03/12 at 18:50:40
 
Sure, Steve, just bury this breaking news all the way down here!

Can't wait to hear more about these.  Care to drop any details for those of us unable to attend Decfest?
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #8 - 09/04/12 at 03:48:54
 
I'm almost finished with the web page for them, so that's going to be the best source of info on them right now. Once I get that done, I'll write the designer's notes and then the owner's manual.  Soon as they're on the site I'll be in here answering any and all questions!

I will however say this;  Go to any Audio Show like CES, RMAF, THESHOW, ETC., and you'll find less than 10% of the good gear is priced under four grand - which is the highest amount of money you can spend on a Decware component.   The people who actually BUY all that stuff don't have a clue who Decware is, or don't feel comfortable spending less on an amplifier than they did on their power cords so they have no interest in Decware.  I intend to change that.

These new amplifiers are my way of reaching out to this market without altering our current product line.  

Steve

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #9 - 09/13/12 at 12:40:40
 
we figured out why you designed this monster . to cator to all the nuts , mostly americans like myself who must have something to drive their 4 or 5 way inefficient loudspeakers that magazines insist they are state of the art. I believe you are right in satisfying that niche'. im sure you've had alot of inquires about a more powerful amp. well I can tell you the first watt does not suck HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #10 - 09/13/12 at 18:35:10
 
Jameskk,

You are correct.  In fact I was just explaining some of why I designed it to Lon on another thread who feared we were taking the business in another direction...  I've copied my response below:

"Lon,  I understand your feelings, as this business was started for the "sincere but broke audiophiles" of the world and targeted at low power high efficiency designs because that's what sounds best.

It still is.


The Torii Mono's are the highest power amplifier I can ever see us building, because to go beyond is

A) unnecessary - if 60 watts won't do it...  and
B) requires paralleled output tubes that make transparency problematic.  

I would have had no interest in making these if they didn't sound as good as our other amplifiers.  Put another way, I'm as far away from selling out as a man can get.  

That said, there is no new direction of higher power amplifiers for Decware or the end of an era, just the inevitable evolution of the Zen TORII design into Monoblocks.

I just want to bring musical pleasure to more people. The number of audiophiles who don't give Decware a second thought because of it's low power or low price are in fact the majority.  This amp is hopefully the bridge that will bring them over to the Decware sound.  It has enough power to work with their present speakers. Many, after getting familiar with Decware, will be willing to explore higher efficiency, simpler speaker designs. This would set the stage to be able to enjoy our fine stable of low power amplifiers as well.  

So you see, rather than  building bigger more expensive amplifiers as the next phase of Decware, I am  in fact using this one amplifier as a tool to draw more people into our current product line.  The new SuperZen confirms it.

Thank's for "coming out and saying it" because I'm sure many people were having the same thought!

Steve"
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #11 - 09/16/12 at 21:10:31
 
Mr. Deckert:  

I find your market strategy a logical evolution to complement your current niche.  I'm just puzzled by the lack of input/output tube voltage regulation stages in the new Mono's.  As recently as early this year, you were very adamant on the important contributions imbedded in that design feature.  It is also an essential part of both the Torii and Mini-Torii original designs.

Unless I missed it, the new (cost-no-object) Mono's do not feature this approach.  How come?  I can only think either you assume a high-level market is normally using a power generation unit ala PS Audio Plant Premiere or better, or you have changed your mind about it?

As the feature in question was a decisive factor in my Mini-Torii choice (and I'm so glad I did it!), as per your own suggestion, I'm surprised not to see it in the new design.  Thanks for your explanation and congrats!
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #12 - 09/16/12 at 21:49:32
 
Fire:

One slight consideration is that voltage regular (VR) tubes are not being made any more, unlike other tubes that remain in current production.
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #13 - 09/16/12 at 22:23:40
 
Perhaps the Jupiter caps are a factor as well, just guessing.
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #14 - 09/17/12 at 01:33:01
 
If regulation tubes are not produced anymore, does that mean the Torii and Mini-Torii would become obsolete eventually?  

I think the Jupitor Caps, as well as everything else in that topography, would benefit from either tube regulation stages, according to my understanding of what has been stated in both amps' Decware literature so far.

There may also be a consideration for aesthetics (mono's look better with fewer tubes), or maybe the fact that other pricey monoblocks don't feature this solution and price-wise Decware would be at some disadvantage, especially if the goal is to be 'not cheap' but better and still more affordable than the typical hi-end counterpart (the 'hook').

Let's see if we can learn about Steve's thoughts on this.  I just want to update my understanding of the tube regulation role in these designs.
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #15 - 09/17/12 at 02:59:04
 
The tubes are not made any longer, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're out there available for decades to come used or NOS so I don't see the amps becoming obsolete. . . . Nor do I think that is why they are absent on this amp.

I thought there was a possibility that with the huge power supply on this amp perhaps the need for further regulation was not great. Or that further regulation didn't offer as much of a benefit as on the lower powered amps.

Anyway, Steve will let us know eventually. When I saw the price tag my curiosity for these amps dwindled. I don't see myself ever owning a pair. I won't say never, but I will say "Not bloody likely!" Smiley
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« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 02:59:50 by Lon »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #16 - 09/17/12 at 04:45:59
 
I tend to agree with you on both counts: Lower power amps may be more susceptible to voltage variations (in and out), good point, Lon.  Also, the price on these babies are in the usual high-end realm, nothing even close to the original (and hopefully resilient) Decware niche.

Further, in my view, amps' power ought to go down over time rather than up, as loudspeakers' technology reaches the high sensitivity evolution peak.  As Steve points out, natural, transparent sound comes easier and cheaper at lower power ratings  ;).
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« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 12:52:11 by Fireblade »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #17 - 09/17/12 at 18:05:30
 
Come to think of it, the lower power justification does not explain Rachael not having this feature, nor the Torii featuring it.  With the former, it may be a cost consideration.  In the latter, that cost was evidently justified.  So, what gives?
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #18 - 09/17/12 at 19:53:37
 
Only Steve really has the answer. I thought he commented on the Integrated not having it, but I'm not sure.

By the way i was not thinking of power output so much as power supply. The new Monos have a hellacious power supply.
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« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 20:09:26 by Lon »  

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #19 - 09/18/12 at 02:26:14
 
Quote:
Mr. Deckert:  

I find your market strategy a logical evolution to complement your current niche.  I'm just puzzled by the lack of input/output tube voltage regulation stages in the new Mono's.  As recently as early this year, you were very adamant on the important contributions imbedded in that design feature.  It is also an essential part of both the Torii and Mini-Torii original designs.

Unless I missed it, the new (cost-no-object) Mono's do not feature this approach.  How come?  I can only think either you assume a high-level market is normally using a power generation unit ala PS Audio Plant Premiere or better, or you have changed your mind about it?

As the feature in question was a decisive factor in my Mini-Torii choice (and I'm so glad I did it!), as per your own suggestion, I'm surprised not to see it in the new design.  Thanks for your explanation and congrats!


Indeed...  The VR tubes are great.  Ever since using them I have been trying to find alternative ways to get the same results because to my knowledge there are no current production VR tubes.  It will never be a problem finding them in small quantities of two or more.  It is however getting difficult for me to find them in large quantities, except for the Russian straight bottle type.  

So that said, designing too many more amplifier that use them is only going to make my life more difficult.  I had to find another way to achieve the same result, and after quite a long stretch I realized that all of the ideas I'd been having were just too complicated.  

The solution was eloquent, as I'll explain.  Pictured below is the reason why the cost no object TORII MONO's do not use VR tubes, where you see the difference in the size between the TORII MONO caps and the caps used in all of our other amps, which by comparison in the market were already twice as big as normal.  (note:  the small caps shown are identical in size to a "C" cell flashlight battery)



With tube rectification, you create a power supply filter with two or more capacitors separated by either a heavy duty resistor or a choke.  The value of the capacitors are between 10 and 50uf typically.  We presently use 47uf caps, which are the small ones in front of the large ones shown in the above picture.  The giant high voltage caps shown behind them are around 55 times larger and cost a small fortune.

Since the purpose of the power supply caps is to reduce the AC ripple effect and noise from the rectifier, having a simply giant capacitor fed by two super fast recovery 3 AMP diodes gives such superior filtering that you don't need, the resistor or choke, nor do you even need the second capacitor!  That means the output transformers are now directly connected to the raw current of the power transformer.  No more resistors to soften the dynamics, or chokes to eliminate hum are needed.
The noise and hash in the power grid that the VR tubes are filtering out, can not escape the black hole effect of such large caps.  Thus the power is ultra clean.

There really isn't anything more zen if you consider the simplicity of it.

The complexity was in evaluating and choosing the right caps.  Just because it's big don't mean it's all that good.  I wanted the best, so many long nights of reading through product datasheets, I found these and compared them to identical size German made Siemens and US made Mallary caps by installing them into the amplifier and listening to it.  I found these to be the best.  They are sure to last a long time because they are configured for 1000 volts and only see 510 volts.

-Steve  Smiley
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #20 - 09/18/12 at 03:15:29
 
Excellent value engineering solution, Mr. Deckert.  Thanks so much for the thorough and enlightening explanation.

I now wonder if the new generation of the current smaller power/price Decware amps may be up for a family of oversized capacitors, scaled down enough to be both technically and economically feasible in regulating that voltage in each particular case.  This more Zen solution would eliminate the VR tube dependence from the Decware product line altogether.

Keep up the good work!
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #21 - 09/18/12 at 04:23:19
 
I thought it might be something like that, thanks for the info Steve.

FB, I think this would be pretty expensive to implement in the other amps, so maybe only "Super" models would have it (with super price tags.) A new chapter! Smiley
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #22 - 09/18/12 at 12:41:28
 
That may well be, I'm afraid.  It may be a long shot, but I would definitely explore the possibility of  scaling these oversized caps down enough to make the amps still affordable, though.  After all, the ratio of power from the Monos to the typical Decware amp is about 10-fold.  Saving the cost of the VR's may finance that minimum oversize cap.  I just think the concept is so valid, it is worth trying.
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #23 - 09/18/12 at 14:02:26
 
Hmmm. . . well I don't think that removing the VRs will really finance the change. But I don't know anything.

Bottom line for me is I love what I have with the Torii and CSP2+ and my upcoming ZP3, figure my Decware components will last me a lifetime, and I need to turn my attention to other areas of my life. I don't think I'll ever be in a market for more expensive Decware products, and that's cool.
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #24 - 09/19/12 at 05:17:36
 
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12 at 05:18:51 by will »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #25 - 09/19/12 at 23:53:27
 
I'm going to give a small piece of advice to Steve. Since this is a "cost is no object" masterpiece, go all out. I would like to see all of the screw heads on the top cover be lined up with each other. Some may like X's, I prefer T's.
I like to think that if someone goes to that degree of perfectionisom they have all of their bases covered.
It took only 5 minutes to get all of the screws on my Torii III lined up, it was a Zen like moment for me.
I may be a little OCD, but perfection is always something to strive for.
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« Last Edit: 09/19/12 at 23:55:06 by Donnie »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #26 - 09/20/12 at 02:48:42
 
Donnie,

That would be easier to do with Torx heads....

Zygi
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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #27 - 09/20/12 at 03:50:34
 
No big caps, down sized caps or VR's needed in a SE84CS Fireblade?! If you ever get to hear one with a good front end, very good cables, at 74 to 84db SPL........you will know............ .   -Stone

PS-clean power too I should say.....I use my modest Adcom 515 AC Enhancer with an XLO Pro Power Cord to CS that does the trick.

I look forward to hearing the Jupiter Caps in the SuperZen or should I say not hearing them like my cables do! All natural.......... .
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« Last Edit: 09/20/12 at 15:04:52 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #28 - 09/21/12 at 18:59:38
 
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