Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
04/20/14 at 09:46:00


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks (Read 6689 times)
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 6773
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #15 - 09/17/12 at 02:59:04
 
The tubes are not made any longer, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're out there available for decades to come used or NOS so I don't see the amps becoming obsolete. . . . Nor do I think that is why they are absent on this amp.

I thought there was a possibility that with the huge power supply on this amp perhaps the need for further regulation was not great. Or that further regulation didn't offer as much of a benefit as on the lower powered amps.

Anyway, Steve will let us know eventually. When I saw the price tag my curiosity for these amps dwindled. I don't see myself ever owning a pair. I won't say never, but I will say "Not bloody likely!" Smiley
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 02:59:50 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 691
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #16 - 09/17/12 at 04:45:59
 
I tend to agree with you on both counts: Lower power amps may be more susceptible to voltage variations (in and out), good point, Lon.  Also, the price on these babies are in the usual high-end realm, nothing even close to the original (and hopefully resilient) Decware niche.

Further, in my view, amps' power ought to go down over time rather than up, as loudspeakers' technology reaches the high sensitivity evolution peak.  As Steve points out, natural, transparent sound comes easier and cheaper at lower power ratings  ;).
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 12:52:11 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2000-Wasapi Ev//WD 1.5Tb HDD//Audioquest Forest USB cbls//HRT MS II+ USB-DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish P. Cord
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 691
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #17 - 09/17/12 at 18:05:30
 
Come to think of it, the lower power justification does not explain Rachael not having this feature, nor the Torii featuring it.  With the former, it may be a cost consideration.  In the latter, that cost was evidently justified.  So, what gives?
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2000-Wasapi Ev//WD 1.5Tb HDD//Audioquest Forest USB cbls//HRT MS II+ USB-DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish P. Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 6773
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #18 - 09/17/12 at 19:53:37
 
Only Steve really has the answer. I thought he commented on the Integrated not having it, but I'm not sure.

By the way i was not thinking of power output so much as power supply. The new Monos have a hellacious power supply.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/17/12 at 20:09:26 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2328
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #19 - 09/18/12 at 02:26:14
 
Quote:
Mr. Deckert:  

I find your market strategy a logical evolution to complement your current niche.  I'm just puzzled by the lack of input/output tube voltage regulation stages in the new Mono's.  As recently as early this year, you were very adamant on the important contributions imbedded in that design feature.  It is also an essential part of both the Torii and Mini-Torii original designs.

Unless I missed it, the new (cost-no-object) Mono's do not feature this approach.  How come?  I can only think either you assume a high-level market is normally using a power generation unit ala PS Audio Plant Premiere or better, or you have changed your mind about it?

As the feature in question was a decisive factor in my Mini-Torii choice (and I'm so glad I did it!), as per your own suggestion, I'm surprised not to see it in the new design.  Thanks for your explanation and congrats!


Indeed...  The VR tubes are great.  Ever since using them I have been trying to find alternative ways to get the same results because to my knowledge there are no current production VR tubes.  It will never be a problem finding them in small quantities of two or more.  It is however getting difficult for me to find them in large quantities, except for the Russian straight bottle type.  

So that said, designing too many more amplifier that use them is only going to make my life more difficult.  I had to find another way to achieve the same result, and after quite a long stretch I realized that all of the ideas I'd been having were just too complicated.  

The solution was eloquent, as I'll explain.  Pictured below is the reason why the cost no object TORII MONO's do not use VR tubes, where you see the difference in the size between the TORII MONO caps and the caps used in all of our other amps, which by comparison in the market were already twice as big as normal.  (note:  the small caps shown are identical in size to a "C" cell flashlight battery)



With tube rectification, you create a power supply filter with two or more capacitors separated by either a heavy duty resistor or a choke.  The value of the capacitors are between 10 and 50uf typically.  We presently use 47uf caps, which are the small ones in front of the large ones shown in the above picture.  The giant high voltage caps shown behind them are around 55 times larger and cost a small fortune.

Since the purpose of the power supply caps is to reduce the AC ripple effect and noise from the rectifier, having a simply giant capacitor fed by two super fast recovery 3 AMP diodes gives such superior filtering that you don't need, the resistor or choke, nor do you even need the second capacitor!  That means the output transformers are now directly connected to the raw current of the power transformer.  No more resistors to soften the dynamics, or chokes to eliminate hum are needed.
The noise and hash in the power grid that the VR tubes are filtering out, can not escape the black hole effect of such large caps.  Thus the power is ultra clean.

There really isn't anything more zen if you consider the simplicity of it.

The complexity was in evaluating and choosing the right caps.  Just because it's big don't mean it's all that good.  I wanted the best, so many long nights of reading through product datasheets, I found these and compared them to identical size German made Siemens and US made Mallary caps by installing them into the amplifier and listening to it.  I found these to be the best.  They are sure to last a long time because they are configured for 1000 volts and only see 510 volts.

-Steve  Smiley
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 691
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #20 - 09/18/12 at 03:15:29
 
Excellent value engineering solution, Mr. Deckert.  Thanks so much for the thorough and enlightening explanation.

I now wonder if the new generation of the current smaller power/price Decware amps may be up for a family of oversized capacitors, scaled down enough to be both technically and economically feasible in regulating that voltage in each particular case.  This more Zen solution would eliminate the VR tube dependence from the Decware product line altogether.

Keep up the good work!
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2000-Wasapi Ev//WD 1.5Tb HDD//Audioquest Forest USB cbls//HRT MS II+ USB-DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish P. Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 6773
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #21 - 09/18/12 at 04:23:19
 
I thought it might be something like that, thanks for the info Steve.

FB, I think this would be pretty expensive to implement in the other amps, so maybe only "Super" models would have it (with super price tags.) A new chapter! Smiley
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 691
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #22 - 09/18/12 at 12:41:28
 
That may well be, I'm afraid.  It may be a long shot, but I would definitely explore the possibility of  scaling these oversized caps down enough to make the amps still affordable, though.  After all, the ratio of power from the Monos to the typical Decware amp is about 10-fold.  Saving the cost of the VR's may finance that minimum oversize cap.  I just think the concept is so valid, it is worth trying.
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2000-Wasapi Ev//WD 1.5Tb HDD//Audioquest Forest USB cbls//HRT MS II+ USB-DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish P. Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 6773
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #23 - 09/18/12 at 14:02:26
 
Hmmm. . . well I don't think that removing the VRs will really finance the change. But I don't know anything.

Bottom line for me is I love what I have with the Torii and CSP2+ and my upcoming ZP3, figure my Decware components will last me a lifetime, and I need to turn my attention to other areas of my life. I don't think I'll ever be in a market for more expensive Decware products, and that's cool.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1085
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #24 - 09/19/12 at 05:17:36
 
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/19/12 at 05:18:51 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Donnie
Seasoned Member
****


Why does it hurt
when I pee?

Posts: 627
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #25 - 09/19/12 at 23:53:27
 
I'm going to give a small piece of advice to Steve. Since this is a "cost is no object" masterpiece, go all out. I would like to see all of the screw heads on the top cover be lined up with each other. Some may like X's, I prefer T's.
I like to think that if someone goes to that degree of perfectionisom they have all of their bases covered.
It took only 5 minutes to get all of the screws on my Torii III lined up, it was a Zen like moment for me.
I may be a little OCD, but perfection is always something to strive for.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/19/12 at 23:55:06 by Donnie »  

Owner of the infamous RED TORII
  IP Logged
ZYGI
Seasoned Member
****


HR-ONE

Posts: 633
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #26 - 09/20/12 at 02:48:42
 
Donnie,

That would be easier to do with Torx heads....

Zygi
Back to top
 
 

All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 701
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #27 - 09/20/12 at 03:50:34
 
No big caps, down sized caps or VR's needed in a SE84CS Fireblade?! If you ever get to hear one with a good front end, very good cables, at 74 to 84db SPL........you will know............ .   -Stone

PS-clean power too I should say.....I use my modest Adcom 515 AC Enhancer with an XLO Pro Power Cord to CS that does the trick.

I look forward to hearing the Jupiter Caps in the SuperZen or should I say not hearing them like my cables do! All natural.......... .
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/20/12 at 15:04:52 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2328
Re: Pictures of the NEW Zen TORII Monoblocks
Reply #28 - 09/21/12 at 18:59:38
 
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print