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3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii? (Read 15333 times)
will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #90 - 06/08/12 at 04:56:37
 
FB,

I can't say for sure, but believe Bob must place these tweeters specifically for soundstage development. It may be that your upward angle is too much???...that the tweeters should be pointing at ear level. So other than toe in and out, and other speaker placement, right/left/forward, I might think about the tweeter projection.

And though asymmetrical walls can help with resonance and reflections, particularly standing waves, if the surfaces are reflective, they will still be there, just running around differently.
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« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 04:59:07 by will »  

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JD
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #91 - 06/08/12 at 12:35:25
 
Thanks Orangecrush almost seems as though the amp is floating. I can really see how they would isolate the amp from any vibration at all...very cool
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #92 - 06/08/12 at 17:16:16
 
Will,

The lift angle on my speakers are directed to my ear levels, that's why I designed the ramps with that inclination.  In my listening room, two of the walls (back one and right hand side) are mostly naked.  The other two have thick drapes.  The floor in front of both the gear and the sweet spot is covered by a thick carpet.  The wall on the right hand side is farthest from that side's speaker (about 6' or 7' away).

Let me elaborate further what I was complaining about yesterday:  Most of my music listening happens to be from older recordings.  Both classical music and Bebop.  I understand about half of these recordings were originally monaural, and the posterior remastering subsided this in most cases by replicating passages for both channels at different intensities (or something of the sort).  This may have produced this sound 'clustering' from the different instruments on each of the channels, depending on the remastering design.

When I listened to normal recordings, there's a more natural soundstage, but never wide or deep enough.  It was even worst when having the speakers toed-in.  When I placed them straightforwards, I found a very tangible improvement.  I did not want to go further (toe-out) because I was afraid of loosing details.

When I listen to audiophile recordings (nothing fancy, not even SACDs, but well recorded stuff, and sometimes 24/96 quality, everything is amazing, including soundstage, although the latter was relatively less pronounced.

Come last night:  I opened up the toeing on the speakers, initially about an inch or so, then a further two inches out.  Things got tangibly better.  Especially somewhere between the 1" and the 2" marks.  I was not able to move the furniture table into the room to increase the speakers' distance from the back wall, as I would have made noises that I did not want that late in the evening.  I'm planning to do that later on today.

So far, the original tendency of my speakers to work better facing away from each other has proven correct and on the right direction.  Thanks to your suggestion (I would have never attempted the toe-out approach), I discovered that this works even better and details remain.

Last night I listened to normally recorded selections, old remastering classical music with bit imaging techniques and some audiophile ones, and they all sounded better (audiophile recordings are so great!), and the soundstage presented itself within the continuum from one speaker to the other one, filling in the gaps and showing some kind of imaging of some instruments.  Definitely an improvement!

I want to replicate that today, listen to other, less fortunate recordings and compare this behavior under daytime power conditions.  We'll see.  Back to the listening room conditions, I haven't mentioned that right in front of each speaker I have two big leather couches (1 seat each) respectively, and a leather long sofa in front of both, at the other side of the room (opposing wall).  I'm worried about those two couches as they are slightly less than 3 feet from the speakers when I push them into the room as much as I can on that same furniture table position.

I will also try moving the whole furniture table holding the gear, further into the room, and see what improvements I make (although, as I said, I would hate to have to do this on every listening!).  I'll let you guys know later on ...
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« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 20:27:51 by Fireblade »  

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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #93 - 06/08/12 at 17:32:39
 
Interesting. I listen to many of the same sort of recordings (and possibly even earlier, into the teens and twenties) and I haven't had to toe out . . .but all our rooms are different.

Should you discover that moving the furniture out into the room makes a sizable improvement, the "Fat Gliders" from Herbie are awesome, they'll not only help the sound from isolation but make it very simple (and relatively quiet) to move furniture or racks about. I have them on the bottom of my turntable stand (which is an old heavy maple piece) and my TV rack (a large cedar piece) and I can move these effortlessly on carpet or flooring.

Little Fat Gliders and Big Fat Gliders are located on this page:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm
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« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 17:33:37 by Lon »  

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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #94 - 06/08/12 at 18:11:41
 
Lon, yeah its funny how my speakers just would not take toe-in nicely.  That was my first placement and left it there for 10 days or so, until I decided to put them straightforward.

I'll check on the gliders if I need to move the furniture every time   Angry  Thanks!
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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #95 - 06/08/12 at 18:37:17
 
I think you can probably get it without having to move the furniture much...using care for aesthetics, but prioritized toward the best sound. My speakers slowly came out as I adjusted the rest of the furniture in fairly minute ways to achieve visual balance.

If moving the gear table out helps, you can probably do a lot to solve this with vibration control, leaving it close to where it is.

My toe out is only fractional. Perhaps a quarter inch (the speakers look almost straight on), and every quarter inch matters, for refining both soundstage and focus. My reference to inches was in width and depth, but whatever works! Your experience with detail makes sense to me since the speakers are close together and these tweeters have such a beautifully wide presentation.

I am still concerned about the upward angle, though this could be meaningless. But we do rely on good room reflection to create the live sound and this angle in your already complex wall arrangement, could be having a negative effect???. I wonder, just for testing purposes if you could devise a way to get the speakers higher and level with the tweeter at roughly ear level.

Also, since you are close to the wall, decoupling the speakers from your stands is probably a good idea.

But I still speculate that room/speaker placement may be at the core and that all vibration stuff will be icing on the cake...thick icing though. Wink
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« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 18:39:47 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #96 - 06/08/12 at 19:25:16
 
I know it seems insane how these isolation issues work, but I honestly think if you are going to keep the equipment on that piece, the gliders might be the best isolation piece to try first, they do a good job of decoupling from the floor that will benefit amp and DAC and speakers. You might ask Steve Herbelin at Herbie's Audio for advice, he's got really sensible ears and ideas. When I lived temporarily in Houston for most of two years he gave me really good advice on how to decouple small bookshelf speakers I was using on a music file based system then, the little feet and "dots" he recommended were an inexpensive and very significant improvement for me then, I was actually very surprised how effectively they worked.

I'll just say that in every room I've had a system in two houses over the last twenty-plus years starting out with the speakers a quarter to a third into the room just made them sing properly, and my late wife (who had very good ears, especially high frequency hearing) enjoyed the sound enough to let me arrange the rooms to allow this spacing. There are constraints to imaging etc. when this isn't so. . . .Worth experimenting with.
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #97 - 06/08/12 at 21:20:02
 
Ha Ha!  I just finished my first test session and noticed my spelling on those 'leather coaches'  ... they're really not basketball trainers with a music passion wearing leather jackets and standing in the middle of my living room, they really are couches, sorry!   Smiley

Kept the furniture's original postion in place, just for comparison to last night.  I can say I don't feel I have apparent power issues as night and day behave the same (although I've not played the gear during Frank Sinatra's 'small wee hours' yet).  Everything that went ok last night behaved the same noon time.

My currenty preferred toe-out is just a few degrees out, which, if you estimate the distance traveled by a fixed point on the speaker's bottom square rim it would be close to a 5/8" displacement or so.  No details lost, a continuum of images between speakers ... just fine!

I stll miss some soundstage depth and width (as it stays within that tunnel between speakers, going back just a little for some instruments, usually bass and drums.)  This may indicate the need to displace the speakers further into the room, indeed.  That's my next test later on.

Lon, thanks for clarifying that the eventual gliders won't interfere with the vibration isolation from Herbie's feet and such.  I was about to ask that.  I thought the floor was the anchoring objective in eliminating vibrations, as spikes do on stand alone speakers?  Maybe those gliders make a better contact with the floor, I presume?

I've been considering moving the gear to a spare room.  Problem is, it is too symetrical (almost square area with same walls and a lower ceiling, and I would need to isolate everything there, including the floor.  I'm afraid it may sound somewhat 'boxy' in there.

Will wrote:

Also, since you are close to the wall, decoupling the speakers from your stands is probably a good idea.

Could you elaborate on this?  I don't have stands, just short ramps with the same footprint of the speakers.  These measure 2" up front and 1" on back and they rest on the furniture table as everything else.  Do you refer to these as stands in your statement? My concern with the back wall proximity is the bass hitting the wall too close through the back ports.  I could even dampen those ports with some material in it maybe?  Or is it also that the higher frequencies are involved in this back wall closeness problem? BTW, my bass may be improved, but so far I don't complain.

Lon, I could never bring the speakers that far into the room.  I know what you mean, but unless I buy 20" monitor stands and place the speakers among the furniture in that livingroom, moving them in and out every listening session ... besides, the wife won't buy it!   Sad   Actually, she has suggested having my gear setup in that other room (sort of out of the way   Embarrassed )  Seriously, though, I may want to try that if this does not improve as I'm expecting.

Will, I'll do my best to improve placement conditions, but I'm also considering Herbie's isolators as a potential added benefit.

Thanks again for your support, guys, you have been great!  I'll let you know the results on that furniture displacement test.
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 01:10:34 by Fireblade »  

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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #98 - 06/09/12 at 01:09:11
 
Not conclusive part two of today's test.  A strong thunderstorm prevented me from playing around enough with the placement as I was worried about some damage to the gear.  Not likely, but just a precaution.

During the time I was at it, though, I was only able to distance the speakers from the back wall some further 6 inches, for a total of 24".  I then discovered a very tangible deeper bass across all recordings.  As if the back port had a better chance to improve its job over the larger distance.

Soundstage may have improved too, but I still need to confirm this, as the distance from the back wall was not enough, but a step in the right direction, I'm sure.  Tight bass I had, but now it goes deeper, and will eventually develop further as the speakers (somehow) are placed more into the room.  I hope this will correlate also with a deeper and wider soundstage.

Lessons to take home in my case: Toe-out works better and close back wall reflections make both bass and soundstage flatter. There.  If I can combine this with isolation devices, this would be the answer, I think.
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 01:13:42 by Fireblade »  

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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #99 - 06/09/12 at 05:56:28
 
I see now the set up. One table, all gear, with speakers on ramps on the table. What I meant by decoupling the speakers is even more important now. Before I thought they were on their own ramped stands. But since they are on the gear table, their vibrations are effecting the amp and the tubes. So I think isolation is extra important in your setting.

Lon has a good idea... describe your gear table to Steve at Herbies and see what he recommends. The reason I thought the speakers would improve with decoupling is that the closer we are to walls and corners it seems bass can build up while vibrting the gear and speakers. I think with this setup, by isolating the speakers, the ramps, the amp, the DAC, and computer, you will likely have a big change.

It seems you can't go wrong with vibration control.

My speakers are close to the wall too in a weird kind of way...the wall has multiple levels working in and out. In a roughly 6.5w x 6.5 tall alcove, that is about 3' deep on one side and 2' deep on the other, is my gear cabinet (about 6'h x 4.5'w x 1.5'd old teak). The speakers are in front at the outer edges of the alcove. Directly behind the speakers (in the alcove) THAT wall is a bit over 3 feet behind the speaker backs. But the very close and adjacent bit of wall on the right, the speaker back is about at wall level... and on the left, the speaker is out a foot or so from that wall. Confused yet?

Of course I had problems with bass in the alcove that needed solving, for which I took several approaches, including modding the speakers by decreasing the plinth space, adding deflex panels to cut interior resonance, putting a few Marigo resonance damping dots on the bass drivers and radials, and cap rolling. This worked toward a cleaner low mid and bass.

This makes me think your thought of playing with the ports on your speakers would be interesting. If the speaker proximity causes the low mids/bass to slightly overwhelm the mids and highs, this could muddle your sound stage and give a sense of veils on lesser recordings.

Also for me, more traditional room treatments helped, but the Kemp boxes and Art Basik treatments are undoubtedly a big part of my sound and sound stage, the basiks diminishing reflections at critical points, and the EMI and Schumann Resonance boxes doing things I don't understand, but I hear them.

Anyway, I had a difficult setting to work with too, and with my MG 944s and with my HR-ONEs (at least with this room's attributes) I was able to get very real sound, and a really excellent, saturated sound stage. On big recordings the actual players can spread out 30 feet wide and 12-15 deep, beyond the walls, with ambient information going and going and going.

I go on like this because my situation that could not work theoretically, works exceptionally after a lot of experimentation.

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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 06:00:17 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #100 - 06/09/12 at 13:08:44
 
Will,

Boy, was I wrong! I was missing a very obvious source of sound degradation right there and wasn't aware of it.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  Now it is of the outmost importance for me to de-couple the speakers from the amplifier's platform.  You see, I was so constrained to adapting the gear to those decor conditions, I missed one of the biggest flaws with it.

No wonder I was suffering from all kinds of soundstage limitations and lacking proper imaging ... with a gear like this it is a crime, indeed.  I feel embarrased!  The funny thing is, it's such a good gear it can fool you with all the other sound benefits in spite of this situation.  This, and the fact that I was blaming the break-in period all this time, man!

I'll have a carpenter build me a couple of 18"- 20" (or 24"- 26" if I don't use the ramps) stands for the speakers and I'm going to use them in the right position (into the room) moving them in and out on every session.  Not the most practical approach but a working tradeoff.  Bass performance will improve also.

The other alternative, as I explained, is to move everything to that small spare room.  I wanted to ask you if you think this may work.  The dimensions on that room are as follows:

Depth: 12'; Width: 9'; Height: 7' 10"  very symmetrical.

I have drapers on the bottom wall (by the window) and can certainly arrange placing some wall carpets or something similar on the side walls, and put a floor carpet covering a good portion on that floor.  I would make a carpenter build me a center rack for the amp, DAC and computer, and two speaker stands as described earlier.  Would this work, you think?

I'm sorry I had you guys study this problem without previously explaining exactly how I had my setup, physically.  Thanks again for your support.
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 13:41:09 by Fireblade »  

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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #101 - 06/09/12 at 15:38:43
 
I don't know how much vibration control will help, but I suspect a lot.

I think I would fully explore the speaker placement, with optimal vibration control, within your chosen space first. The ramps may be fine. Or you may need to level. I really would try the speakers level, and at the right height, perhaps making toe and width tweaking easier also. Or perhaps with new stands, you can find a permanent position that sounds great, even if a little close to the wall.

But here are some good things to look at:

http://www.decware.com/paper36.htm
http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
http://www.decware.com/paper39.htm
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 15:39:20 by will »  

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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #102 - 06/09/12 at 17:28:02
 
I just don't think it wise to keep the speakers resting in the same table shared by amp and the rest, due to those speakers' vibrations.  I agree with you also on trying to reduce shock waves from the back wall (from the speakers) affecting the amp.  In both instances, isolators would help, but it does not make sense to have the speakers there to start with.

I think I would still require placing feet under the speakers, on top of new stands (just ordered a 26" high pair from a local wood shop, in rustic wood to start with), and also under the amp, as well as dampers in drivers and output tubes.  But I will never place those speakers back in that same furniture table.

With the new 26" stands, the overall tweeter level raises to 40", my ear level while seating.  Since the speakers would be now placed well into the room, the floor carpet should prevent excessive bass reflections from the floor.  This way I can eliminate the need for the ramps and adjust toeing easier, as you said.

The inconvenience with this approach is having to move them back and forth every listening time.  The alternative, again, is the spare room.

Even though I understand your suggestion of trying to keep the speakers where they are, using isolators for every component, I really think we'll be pushing it and the bass cannot develop (and maybe even soundstage) if speakers are not quite removed from any of the walls, which I could not achieve keeping those speakers in the original spot.

Thanks for the references, which I'll check soon enough.  Take care now ...
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #103 - 06/09/12 at 19:22:05
 
"The room" seems like an alternative that is worth exploring. It is The Wife's hidden message to get this gear into one place.
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #104 - 06/09/12 at 21:39:29
 
It's been a week and the homebrew preamp is nicely seasoned in and impressing me more. There's still a fundamental signature difference between this and CSP2, this one is a bit more "midrange oriented" and a touch less open on top and bottom, but that has become less pronounced this week.

One ore cryoset.com cable made it into the system, which really helped raised the sonics from my Denon SACD/DAC into the player, and thus helping the preamp to sound its best.

I've been enjoying SACD releases in the EMI Signature Series today, Lizst, Debussy, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart. Beautiful music, great sound.
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