Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/30/14 at 08:18:40


Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print
3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii? (Read 13979 times)
sberger
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 179
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #75 - 06/07/12 at 17:25:18
 
Whoa not a P10. A gently used Power Plant Premier from a few years back. Can't jump into the deep end just yet.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1147
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #76 - 06/07/12 at 17:29:45
 
Fireblade. I think you are right, with your transformer (presumably it has surge suppression too???) and power cord, along with the filtering from the VRs in your Mini Torii, you likely have decent power. But it can get better.

Don't know your Kimber Speaker Cables, but they are likely pretty good too. And your ICs are good. Both could be likely better also.

Speaker cables really do effect the sound in different ways making the "good" or "bad" sooooo relative...I have heard Reality, AudioQuest GBC, Clearday shotguns, CAT5 DIY, and Decware in this system, and all were good enough to adapt the system to. Decware is my favorite for their ability to give detailed, and extended presentation that is smooth and warmish...without excess sense of detail, but the home made with CAT 5 cables were close, and the others were all very good sounding in their own way. Don't know how your Kimbers stack up in this, but some food for thought.

Questions become: How much do you like your current system and components? Does anything stick out as lacking? If not, then prioritizing based on cost efficiency may be the best way to go knowing that it all matters with this quality of gear.

I mean, I just replace the AC ends on my first cable feeding the UberBuss from Furutech copper to Furutech Gold and man...nice change. But the copper ends sounded great! For my Tranquility, I added a AQVOX USB power unit (puts clean power to the DAC chip that normally comes from the computer) and wow...great change again. And my system has been amazing to me for a long time. The point being, you can go and go and go.

This thread has segued into several of these areas of fine tuning that take a system into the extraordinary. All important, but some things getting potentially quite costly. And we haven't really touched much on tubes and ROOM. So I get your question. What next?

Adding up costs, and based on what you are now using...Styx, a Mini Buss EDIT: I meant PI Surge Suppressor (designed mostly for surge suppression), feet and tube dampers...this would cost more than a Zstage with some decent cables. Would the combo offer more improvement than a Zstage...it is possible depending on system needs and tastes, but both routes would be really good and I guess finally it would be a synergy/taste thing as to which is better to you.

Since you are generally covering many bases reasonably well...looks to me like Herbie's feet would be a cost efficient improvement. 3 Isocups for the amp, and based on the size of your DAC, as Lon suggests, Baby Booties. A nice inexpensive, but significant upgrade with parts you will likely use for a very long time.

Then, unless you have apparent power or cable issues, since the Zstage is so interesting to you (and a nice piece of gear) I might tend toward the Zstage next. And then look more at power and cabling. Hard to say as you are choosing from all good stuff, and all will help. But this is my thought today.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 15:20:11 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7184
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #77 - 06/07/12 at 17:34:09
 
sberger wrote on 06/07/12 at 17:25:18:
Whoa not a P10. A gently used Power Plant Premier from a few years back. Can't jump into the deep end just yet.


Not sure where I got P10 from (unless from your post and you've edited it). The Premier is excellent. You are going to be happy you got it, and at such a good price.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Pale Rider
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1272
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #78 - 06/07/12 at 20:46:29
 
Fireblade wrote in part:

Quote:
Pale Rider, thanks for your contributions.  It's surprising for me to learn that the speaker cables and isolation devices bear even more importance than the IC's in improving overall sound.  I'm sure about the clean power concept, but I thought I had that covered with the isolation tranny and a hospital grade power cord.  These may not be the best, but should be helping.  As this was underlined by Lon also, I'm already set on getting those speaker cables first, along with the isolation devices (dampers for the output tubes, I suppose, and the feet for the Mini Torii.)


I was perhaps sloppy in my writing when I used the phrase "more so" without being clear that I was referring to the relative impact compared to clean power. IOW, clean power is even more important than isolators as compared to ICs from my point of view. I was intending to convey that, in my view, the items in my system like Herbie's gear and ZenStyx can make audible improvements, but their contribution is overall less significant than regenerated power. If I had to do it all over again, I would start with the power first.
Back to top
 
 

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7184
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #79 - 06/07/12 at 21:30:34
 
I agree totally.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1147
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #80 - 06/07/12 at 22:57:01
 
I'd say, it depends on your power.

With a brickwall, a cheap, but powerful Alan Maher EMI filter, and a few Alan Maher boxes of rocks, I had very clean sound. Then by adding some Kemp boxes, it got more refined and holographic. Finally, adding the UberBuss (which is reported as improvement over very expensive power units) took it another step, solidifying my sound and making it more organic and consistent, but it was not night and day. Since PS Audio regenerators are among those others have moved to the Uber from, I am assuming the Uber is in the ballpark with PSAudio.

So, though totally theoretical, my assumption is that my power is pretty good to begin with. This is why I said "unless you have apparent power or cable issues..."

Also, sorry Fireblade, I confused the new PI Surge Protector with the MiniBuss, though it sounds like the Surge Protector MAY do what the Minibuss does along with transparent surge suppression.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/07/12 at 23:11:43 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 701
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #81 - 06/07/12 at 23:52:52
 
Pale Rider, thanks for clarifying.  I certainly didn't get that the first time around, sorry.  No wonder I was surprised about it.  I mean, I used to think IC's were primary in all this chain, maybe only second to power treatment.  With your statement in the right context, I feel now my speaker cables are decent enough not to be a critical bottleneck, and although these could be improved, of course, I may need more of other essentials before upgrading speaker wires, like Herbie's aids.  No doubt power could certainly be improved but again, I'm not totally uncovered in this area either.  Experimentation with the isolation gadgets first may give us some clues.

Will, your analysis is quite sensible.  It is hard for me to answer your vital question, though.  I may not be able to identify what exactly is missing without being exposed to those virtues, first hand (reference).  I know the sound can be improved (as I notice it quite easily just by switching music sources that are recorded differently).  Then there's the never-ending, compounded break-in period uncertainty in my new gear.  Who can tell what would be the final sound on this setup, eventually?  I certainly cannot at this point.

Having said all that, I feel more soundstage and transparency may be wellcome.  Whether this impression is due to the break-in or not, it definitely is something I feel is still lacking.

On the isolation transformer, yes it definitely performs two essential functions:  Prevents surges and limits noise coming from the mains.  As far as I can tell, the Tripp Lite is working without contributing with its own noise.  My speakers are normally dead silent even with my ears very close to the speaker screens, and silence between selections is absolute, so I do not suffer from apparent humming noises either.

I hear you on the isocup feet, as well as those dampers, and certainly could try the Baby Booties, as these all seem cost-effective to me too, especially considering your collective positive sound improvement impressions.

Concerning the ZStage, I just don't know what should be first.  Maybe you guys can lead me into interpreting what I just mentioned about soundstage and transparency.  Now, to be clear, when I stream a very well recorded source, details abound, and the transparency is there, not so much the size of the soundstage.  So maybe the clue for you guys to interpret this is soundstage limitations only?  When the recorded material is suboptimal, though, I have some difficulty separating some frequencies and the music seems to be a little under a 'veil' or maybe coming from a closed container or something.

The potential of this gear definitely shows up with well recorded material, naturally, but the key here would be to extend some of that potential to the bulk of recordings.  Whether break-in, lacking isolation, power nuances, inefficient cabling or foregone benefits of a ZStage is what I could not pinpoint.  Maybe you have a better idea about it.

Finally, as you put it very well, we have not even discussed tubes. I was under the impression tubes may change colors, tones and timbres, but not sound quality per se.  I think what I'm missing relates more to essentials than to these rather more esoteric shades of playback sound.

In the end, a better USB/DAC may be the answer, but I suspect it to be still far up in the evolution yet, as it would not compensate for essentials missing.  So I'm almost back to block one, except for the isolation devices.  BTW, are dampers for the output tubes only (or maybe also the drivers)?

Will, I see you are inclined to suggest the ZStage, assuming no major essential drawbacks.  I give you my earlier sound evaluation for you to maybe confirm or discard that statement.  Thanks again for your insights and patience.   Smiley
 
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 00:21:00 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7184
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #82 - 06/08/12 at 00:25:05
 
I actually think that the tube dampers are most effective on input tubes, but they will have subtle effects on output and rectifiers as well. Start wtih the inputs.

If you feel you have good power, I would look at isolation next and think about the ZStage. The ZStage should allow you to tailor in body and tonal texture. . . .
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 00:34:35 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1147
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #83 - 06/08/12 at 01:01:27
 
First, your lack of hum could easily indicate decent power, though the intricacies from VERY clean power may improve the finer details.

Second, from your description of sound, how many hours would you guess are on your amp? Could be burnin that is creating the "veil" ...could be source too, but those reviews you posted links about your DAC make it sound pretty good. Then the computer IS part of your source...could be it. Might try some feet under it too. If it is not source, I suspect room is your problem.

And room can be treated in different ways. Speaker placement experimentation is the easiest first choice. The old rules are not always right for a given situation either. In my room, where my speakers need to be (in the center of a wide room, and only 6-7 feet apart) I prefer a very slight toe out from straight on. Not that this is what you need, but to make a point, this is the best way to cancel reflection and resonant issues in this setting, improving image and frequency balance. My soundstage and ability to get great sound from many recording qualities is truly amazing.

Also out from the wall.... and with my room, small changes really matter. An inch here or there....very slight toe changes.

Veils sound like something is killing the mid and upper mids...either too much low mid, or not enough mids and highs.

I am no room expert by any means, but here is a take...If it is low mids, and you are handy, you could make some bass traps. Does your bass sound muddled? And don't forget that comb filtering can happen too, where certain frequency wave forms counter one another creating cancelation. This is where the higher frequency and diffusion treatments come in.

That is a labyrinth though, so I would try speaker placement first...extensive experimentation. This can make a not so perfect room sound pretty good if you are lucky.

I think the Zstage will enhance what you have, including soundstage, but I don't think it is a silver bullet for sound stage. But like Lon said, it will help tailor your overall sound. This could clarify things enough to improve soundstage. We know your amp and speakers are capable of great imaging given a relatively true source and a room that will allow this.

I have always had a good soundstage, but many things have improved it. A Kemp Schumann Resonator is designed to help this and did for me...can't say if it would for you. Also to avoid extensive treatments in my living room, I use Synergistic Research Art Basic. These things may or may not help you, but they did here. We are back to the money thing though.

And tubes...they can make a real mark for sorting out detail to tastes, which in turn can enhance sound stage if density is a problem with your sound, but that is a big playground too. I suppose you could look at the MT threads and see if there is some really good, reasonably priced, and revealing input tube to try. If you get into tubes, it never hurts to have some choices around.

But look at burnin time and speaker placement.

Like Lon, I find the dampers best on the inputs, but I like them on the power tubes, and rectifiers too. I do not use them on VRs. Feet will will cut vibration in the tubes too, so you could start there. But direct tube damping is definitely a good tool.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 01:04:50 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 701
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #84 - 06/08/12 at 01:36:45
 
I see your points, Lon and Will.  Let me ask you this: Why is it that the gear sounds sooo good with the proper recordings?  One could assume this could discard most of the suspects here, I would say.  Regarding the break-in hours, I calculate roughly 80 to 90 hrs so far, not much indeed, or is it?

I will try more speaker positions, but so far, straight forward seems the best.  I may even try toe-out a bit, just to check.  Distance from back wall is 18" to 20" max, though. There is a physical limitation there, as I cannot proyect them further into the room than that.  Side walls are not an issue, I think.

I suspect the speakers need more break-in time that even the amp, especially given the Mundorf capacitors upgrade on them.  If you ask my (neofyte) opinion, the speakers are not there yet, but slowly opening, day by day.  I may be wrong.

My laptop-USB/DAC combo is wonderful with great recordings: plenty of details and air.  As stated before, in general no big soundstage though. Everything seems to happen between the two speakers only, and most times sounds are evidently coming from either speaker.  This of course may be the mastering of the typical bulk of original recordings.  I don't feel real soundstage depth yet (I listen to a lot of 60's and earlier recordings).

Bass behaves very well in general, though.  Not too deep, mind you, but natural and tight enough to impart some PRAT and convey the music's rhythm convincingly.

There, I'll let you know more when I go over some of the fast mods first.

Thanks again for your insights!
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1147
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #85 - 06/08/12 at 02:17:52
 
Quote:
Everything seems to happen between the two speakers only, and most times sounds are evidently coming from either speaker.  This of course may be the mastering of the typical bulk of original recordings.  I don't feel real soundstage depth yet


This does not sound right. Even with poor recordings, there is no evidence in my system of the sound coming from the speakers. They literally have no apparent part in the sound. And the sound stage varies with recordings, but is always wide and deep relative to the speaker placement.

Tight bass sounds like a good sign. And the best recordings will always sound good as the detail information and balance is more complete, but relatively speaking, bad ones should sound good too.

18-20 inches from the wall is pretty close. It might be interesting just to pull them out to 2.5-3 feet for fun and see if anything changes.

The side wall proximity can effect sound, but a lot of the room stuff is proportions...how the various frequencies bounce around and what happens in that process...heightening some frequencies and reducing others. I thin this is in part what the talk about first reflections is about. they can bounce around pretty fast at important frequencies, so much so, that the mind can't tell where the sound is coming from simply because the wrong reflections sound like the real thing and confuse the image. Offending bounces can be changed some with speaker placement and toe.

80-100 hours is light for burnin, but I think you should be beginning to hear where the sound is going. Even with the Mundorfs. Looking at the real potential, it will get much better over more time though. I think my Mundorfs kept improving for many hundreds of hours, but they always sounded pretty good. Same for the amp and speakers, though I agree with you, the bass drivers loosening up will really be nice.

Your report makes me want to look even more at speaker placement. Width, toe, depth.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 02:33:17 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 701
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #86 - 06/08/12 at 02:38:59
 
Got it, Will.  I'll try this right away, and for a couple days more and we'll see.  My speakers are atop of two wooden ramps (hard Teak wood, solid), to provide some inclination upwards.  I recently noticed the two surfaces meeting (top of ramp & speaker bottom) are not exactly leveled.  This may produce some additional vibes as the speaker is not sitting aplomb into the ramps, there's a slight sway play.  Any suggestions?

My room is asymetrical, so theoretically no resonance replication possible as the reflections tend to be at different angles.  My speakers are positioned roughly 5' apart of each other.  I'm afraid you're right about the distance from the back wall.  I will try for fun, but it definitely won't be the normal listening placement, as there's a hallway right in front of the speakers' plane and I just couldn't practically obstruct this passage by moving the furniture table that far into it.

I can try and lift the ramp's angle further, also.  We'll see. Regarding the soundstage, the instruments tend to group themselves next to either channel, from the speaker and somewhat into the center but close to those extremes.  This definitely do not mask the fact that the sound is coming from the speakers.  In vocals, though, solo voices are at dead center, and this is definitely the recording, sending the signal to both channels, so no soundstage merit there either.

I'll let you know when I find out more on placement.  Thanks so much, Will.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 02:51:30 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7184
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #87 - 06/08/12 at 02:53:42
 
It's hard for me to say as my ERRs are so different a design, and their casting of the sound everywhere a different method of getting the sound out there, but I agree about getting them as far INTO the room as you can as a comparison starting point--I think that will help with the depth and may help with width as well. And I think you need about three times the hours you have so far before the amp really opens up and that you'll get more sound-staging from that point on.

And as you get hours on, and starting now, I'd try toeing in the speakers bit by bit. That should both fill the center more, and spread some sound away from the speakers' outer edges.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/08/12 at 02:56:29 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Fireblade
Seasoned Member
****


Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
A.L.Tennyson

Posts: 701
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #88 - 06/08/12 at 03:02:02
 
Thanks, Lon.  I'll sure try that.  I'm preparing the setup right now, so I'll let you guys know tomorrow   Wink.
Back to top
 
 

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
  IP Logged
orangecrush
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 194
Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #89 - 06/08/12 at 04:56:33
 
For JD:


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 
Send Topic Print