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3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii? (Read 15596 times)
Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #60 - 06/06/12 at 22:27:26
 
Got it, loud and clear.  Makes sense.  Thanks again!
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Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #61 - 06/06/12 at 22:35:26
 
Fireblade wrote on 06/06/12 at 22:16:36:
There may be some merit to the cryo process in metals, as their crystalline structure will tighten together, further than normal and irreversibly, if exposed to very low temperatures, presumably allowing for a more solid, clean sort of 'highway' for electrons to travel through.

When you mention cabling improvements potential, are you referring to power cords, IC's or speaker cables, or all of them?  

Again Lon, thanks for taking the time to answer these nagging questions.


Well, yes, I know about the science of cryo'ing metal, but my personal experience is limited to tubes and those two instances of cabling. The interconnects are clearly right for me, not sure if the cryo'ing has any bearing on the results.

By cabling, yes I mean all of the cabling.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #62 - 06/06/12 at 22:46:39
 
I see.  Lon, do you recommend Decware's speaker cables?  Have you got any experience with them?  Could I assume my Decware IC's are ok, and so, I should concentrate on the other cables?

As you know, the Mini Torii has tube voltage regulation, both at the input and output stages.  Should this help with the power conditioning problem so I should not need the regeneration plant as much as someone without these regulation stages?  I think Steve mentioned this to me when we talked about the M-T.  Of course, the plant would be the best thing, but given it's cost it may well be a secondary option for me and I should maybe concentrate in the cabling and eventually sourcing first?

I'm sorry, I promise to stop nagging with this last message. Smiley
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« Last Edit: 06/06/12 at 22:54:51 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #63 - 06/06/12 at 23:02:19
 
Yes, I've had the Decware speaker cables for years now. The damned things took forever to really come into their own (were really bass-shy for months) but when they did they became the best speaker cables I've ever had and I've not been tempted by other cables since. I've practically changed everything else and they have shown me every change and stayed musical and detailed (in the right way, I am NOT a detail freak, but I don't like things hidden either).

If the Decware interconnects are working well with your source right now I wouldn't worry about them til you make other changes and access them again. They served me very well for years, and it really wasn't until I made big changes in power and source that I began to feel I needed different interconnects. They made really good recordings sound fantastic but I couldn't relax into the bulk of the recordings I have the way I wanted to. I'd hang with them right now and maybe you will even longer, they're a great design.
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« Last Edit: 06/07/12 at 00:56:52 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #64 - 06/06/12 at 23:13:18
 
Fireblade wrote on 06/06/12 at 22:46:39:
As you know, the Mini Torii has tube voltage regulation, both at the input and output stages.  Should this help with the power conditioning problem so I should not need the regeneration plant as much as someone without these regulation stages?  I think Steve mentioned this to me when we talked about the M-T.  Of course, the plant would be the best thing, but given it's cost it may well be a secondary option for me and I should maybe concentrate in the cabling and eventually sourcing first?


My Torii has Decware voltage regulation and I found the power regeneration made just as much of an impact with it as it did with my other amps. Have to say I don't quite agree with Steve's statements about this, or perhaps I should say I don't fully understand it. In the Torii the voltage regulation stages make a difference that are only enhanced by the Power Plant. All the amps I've heard sound great, and could benefit from power treatment. Greg has found this to be true as well for the Toriis he owns. Ever since I had one of the first P300s made from PS Audio, I've known that this is an important factor for my systems. And I'm sure that again my old house with its old wiring is a factor. Down the line you could look into one of the PS Audio outlets and the "Duet" power centers. These do about as much as you can before regeneration, and do a lot for the sound.
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« Last Edit: 06/06/12 at 23:56:46 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #65 - 06/07/12 at 01:01:28
 
I have no complaints from the IC's, so this confirms one less cable to replace.  I've heard at least another reliable opinion on Decware's speaker cables and that is absolutely positive too, so we'll be saving for those instead.

On the voltage regulation issue, I forgot the Torii also has those, and I see your point.  I just would like for other Torii owners (I think Greg has everything, and this is wonderful, but not representative) to confirm this, that may not share the same atypical house electrical infrastructure that you describe as a possible factor.  

I'll also check on the duet power centers as a more affordable alternative. BTW, I'm sure Steve's recommendations included the isolation transformer and good power cords, underlying the benefits of the amp's voltage regulation stages in cleaning the noises imbedded in the mains.  This may had not taken into account improvements beyond the de-coupling/filtering attributes, that you have found.

Lon, I thank you for giving me a perspective.  I think you're right on the money on cabling and power treatments (aside from the affordable anti-vibration gadgets) as priorities.  I'll leave the power plant for the future and concentrate on those other more basic (and affordable) weak links.

The way my gear is sounding (progressively better with time), I think I will reconsider the ZStage and other components and straighten out the basics discussed, instead.

I'm appreciative of your insights, Lon.  Have a nice evening.
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« Last Edit: 06/07/12 at 01:02:47 by Fireblade »  

Laptop-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct//WD 2.0Tb HDD//Audio Gd USB cable//Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014) DAC//Decware Silver Ref IC's//Decware Mini Torii SE//Kimber Kable spkr cbls//Decware DM945's//Velodyne DLS 3500//BJC SUB Cbls//Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf.//Jellyfish Pwr Cord
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Pale Rider
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #66 - 06/07/12 at 01:47:33
 
The PPPs made a significant improvement in my sound. I am considering trading them in for new P5 units, because there is quite a good promo on them now, but I am still lining out the impact on the budget for the rest of the year. FWIW, I have relatively recent and well installed electrical wiring in my home.

Decware,  HCM, and MAC ICs also made a noticeable improvement in the system, but not as much as clean power, and the same is true for the ZenStyx speaker cables. Herbie's isolation devices and tube dampeners even more so.

Tubes of course can make a huge difference, as can synergies between tubes and tube components. But overall, other than the tubes and tube components themselves, nothing else had quite the impact of clean power in my experience. I think that is because clean power positively contributes to the performance of every element in the system. And that is one reason I believe Steve suggests listening late at night when the power grid is cleaner. And the PSA units are such a different approach, that they tend to dwarf other approaches that do not regenerate power. Just my $.02.  YMMV.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #67 - 06/07/12 at 02:53:23
 
Fireblade. I agree with Lon and Pale Ryder that cables, power cleaning, and vibration isolation are all intelligent steps, each having "significant" positive results once you get into the finer details of the last 5-10 percent. And Pale Ryder makes an excellent point about the actual effects of good power improving every bit of the electronic path.

But relative to the origins of this thread. The Isocups...feet also effect every electronic part of your gear. Every foot I have used has a different sound, and depending on the piece of gear, the differences are greater or less, but always discernible. I played for hours over several days refining the feet, and foot placement even under my Mac Mini. Subtle, but not subtle if you know what I mean. Here I am not talking about 5%, but the difference between very real and very, very real. Definitely worth the effort to optimally isolate the Mini.

HerbiesAudioLab feet are really good, as are his tube dampers, indicating that he is a serious developer with good ears. Though I got tenderfeet for my lighter gear (and like them for my ZDAC and Zstage), I tried them under the Torii, and did not like the sound, or under the Tranquility. Too soft. But they were the soft tenderfeet, and as Lon suggested, the more dense ones might work very well. The isocups on the other hand, once I found the right arrangement and adapted to the way they reduced vibration and effected the sound, I like them a lot under the Torii. Detailed, extended, smooth and neutral.

The Torii is heavier than the MiniTorii, but I suspect you could get similar results as the rest of us with Herbie's highend bases, frosted isocups and lampblack balls under your MT. It seems three would be plenty for it. I could tell the difference between three and four on the Torii, enough to be glad I got the fourth, but three was really good, and  the Torii is heavy.

Since Steve @ Herbie's is the expert, it may be worth an email conversation with him about the sound characteristics of his newer, and slightly less expensive Isocups and Hardballs. Here is a quote from a post of his on AudioCircle " Frosted Clear Iso-Cup has been replaced in our product lineup with a newly-formulated black Iso-Cup and SuperSonic Hardball. The new Iso-Cup achieves a sonic result equal to or better than the Clear Iso-Cup w/Lampblack Ball + Hi-End Base, without needing the Hi-End Base."

Not having tried these, I can't comment, and as we have seen, there is the gear synergy thing, but the ones I have are really good. Isocups under the MT, and some tenderfeet under your DAC might be a really good, cost effective next step.

As to power, I have a Pi Audio UberBuss with a Brickwall in front, with a bunch of Alan Maher boxes spread around, and a couple Kemp boxes. This all came in a long progression. Not having tried the PS stuff, I can't compare, but my sound is off the charts all day, unaffected by power line variations. It actually was quite good before the Uber, but the Uber sealed the deal! Interestingly, the UberBuss rendered the Kemp and Maher electronic RFI/EMI cleaning boxes notably less important, but I kept them in in different, more subtle positions, now around the room, instead of in with the gear.

Pi now makes a little surge suppressor Buss (two years development, an effort to add surge suppression without negative sonic impact..the Uber has no surge suppression) that looks interesting, and is supposed to improve sound some too. In a little search I found the following posts indicating (if the time comes for you) that there may be good ways to go rather than the costly, though effective PS power regenerators.

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=2124.0
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?raccs&1249671575
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=176

Perhaps some fun territory to explore. Wink
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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #68 - 06/07/12 at 14:45:05
 
Lon, the Duets power centers are not on offer anymore.  I could not find anything really useful there, other than the P5/P10, which may be great but are quite expensive pieces of auxiliary gear.  I may have found an affordable alternative, though.

Pale Rider, thanks for your contributions.  It's surprising for me to learn that the speaker cables and isolation devices bear even more importance than the IC's in improving overall sound.  I'm sure about the clean power concept, but I thought I had that covered with the isolation tranny and a hospital grade power cord.  These may not be the best, but should be helping.  As this was underlined by Lon also, I'm already set on getting those speaker cables first, along with the isolation devices (dampers for the output tubes, I suppose, and the feet for the Mini Torii.)

Will, thanks for your usual support.  I checked those links and I'm sold on the Ubber Buss concept.  For a more affordable alternative, I'm considering the Mini Buss new choice (I guess that's the one you were referring to).  Shame this Dave guy is not up and running with the website yet.  It's hard to even find a proper Mini Buss description from him.  In any event, this is on my list along with the above listed priorities right now.

I don't know if you are familiar with my USB/DAC, but it's so tiny, it won't get any advantages of feet under it.  They wouldn't even fit (maybe one?).  We'll see.  On the isocups for the Mini, I certainly need to study them to make sure I choose the right ones in my case.  I actually need to understand and properly select either the harder material tenderfeet or the newly designed isocups.  I have not been able to look deeply into their site yet.

Gentlemen, thanks to all for these viewpoints and for clearing the misconceptions I had.  I think the best approach for me, not in a hurry as I said, is to prepare the ground for those three elements:  Mini Buss, ZenStyx wires and Herbie's isolation gadgets (dampers and feet).  

BTW, would it be wrong to use my isolation transformer to feed the Mini Buss?  I just want to take advantage of what I already have, and it seems to me it is working fine, as far as I can tell, so it should actually help the Mini Buss ...  I guess this is a question for Dave and company, sorry!

Take care now, guys ...
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« Last Edit: 06/07/12 at 22:28:56 by Fireblade »  

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JD
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #69 - 06/07/12 at 15:12:06
 
Could any of you using the isocups post a pic I'm having a hard time seeing how these would look under the torii.  I know Herbie's has some great products just not sure I would fing this combo visually appealing.
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #70 - 06/07/12 at 15:13:21
 
Too bad about the Duets, they'll show up here and there, they're great.

As for your DAC, look into the Baby Booties from Herbie's. Work very well. I don't think you would need the "firm" feet for the MT. Iso Cups work best on amps, but the feet work well too.
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« Last Edit: 06/07/12 at 15:14:12 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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sberger
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #71 - 06/07/12 at 15:19:17
 
FWIW I recently found a mint Power Plant Premier for more than 60 % off retail so the deals are out there. My first real attempt at addressing my power issues. Haven't received it yet and have no idea how it will help as I have no idea if my power needs help. But figure it was a good price and it can't hurt.
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #72 - 06/07/12 at 15:26:37
 
Sam, I think you're in for a surprising change in fidelity, for the better immediately, and even better after a week or so. Good score.

Still enjoying the cryoset cables?
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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sberger
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #73 - 06/07/12 at 16:16:02
 
Thanks Lon. Yes the cables made and continue to make a very nice improvement. I really am looking forward to seeing what the PPP will do in my system but for sure if nothing else it will help with power cord orginization. Again can't be a bad thing.
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #74 - 06/07/12 at 16:25:31
 
Glad the cables are working out for you so well. I have my third pair on the way to me. . . and will probably eventually buy another. Smiley

I think the P10 is going to surprise you. Eager to hear the results. Will you have it by the weekend?
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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