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3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii? (Read 16568 times)
will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #30 - 06/01/12 at 15:40:13
 
Got it Lon. Interesting about the acrylic. I wonder if you can still get them. Could you break down the difference between the lampblacks a little more?

It will be fun to see where we all end up on this exploration orangecrush has revived.

Have you looked at Herbie's lately. I just took a look and did not see the cloudy white silicone, the stainless bases, or the lampblack balls. Now black silicone, and "supersonic hardballs."

orangecrush, didn't you get the high end bases with lampblack balls. Do yours have stainless bases and cloudy/whitish silicone. The supersonic balls look a little matte in the pics whereas my lampblack look shiny.
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« Last Edit: 06/01/12 at 15:41:03 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #31 - 06/01/12 at 16:20:36
 
Right will, some months back Herbie moved to the new black bases and new balls and he states these do NOT need the bases.

You can still buy the old material bases and balls though. Click on the "Misc." link under "Contact Us" on the black banner at the top of the home page. You can find the acrylic balls and the high-end base by clicking the "Products" link on the black banner on the home page.

As for acrylic versus lampblack, I first got a hint when I started with my "roller-bearing" isolation support for my ERRs. I used a 1.5 inch concave automotive freeze plug with one of the Herbie's balls on all corners. I first used the acrylic balls I had lying around, and ordered some more lampblack to try as well. I got a very open and clear sound with the acrylic balls, and a very neutral fast signature. When the lampblack balls came and were substituted there was a lessening of the openness and a tilt upwards in frequency. That led me to experiment with the acrylic and lampblack balls in the IsoCups. I came to the conclusion that with the frosted cups and high end bases, the acrylic had a touch more open and fast character, the lampblack a slight brightness. Bright is an enemy in my system. Smiley With older IsoCups that I have (clearer material, with a gray "neutralizing" layer at the bottom) I really couldn't discern a difference.* So I'd say the acrylic is a bit more neutral. I could be wrong about the "neutrality" but it does result in what I think is a more neutral sound.

*But these bases are a bit slower sounding overall. Sometimes a nice tool for the toolbox.
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« Last Edit: 06/01/12 at 16:22:19 by Lon »  

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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #32 - 06/01/12 at 16:24:40
 
will, have you tried the firmer Tenderfeet with the Clarity? Might do the trick and the "symmetry" of the two components stacked with Tenderfeet might be just right. One never knows, do one?
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orangecrush
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #33 - 06/01/12 at 18:00:04
 
I ordered the lampblack balls and the clear frosted cups with high end bases simply because I read several people say its a killer combo. It seems the super sonic hardball gets mixed results in direct comparison.

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Pale Rider
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #34 - 06/01/12 at 18:02:26
 
Lon wrote:

Quote:
And I have experience with the PS Audio phono preamp, it's a fantastic and versatile preamp that sounds amazing, so the combo just seemed to promise better sound and reliability for me than any other possible ones I could afford.


I agree on the PS Audio phono preamp and CSP combo. Though I have never heard them together, I have heard the PSA and I know the Decware sound. It's funny though, because while I was at one time quite a vinyl junkie, having invested large sums in a variety of analogue equipment, even building my own tone arms, modifying cartridges, etc., I have come to the conclusion that vinyl is just another sound, another tonal distortion of reproduced reality. When I was younger, I detested all the electro-mechanical obstacles to good vinyl sound (and let's be honest, there are plenty of crappy recordings and pressings in all media), and longed for something more repeatedly, reliablly accurate. Like any early computer aficionado, I wanted solid state storage without moving parts. I am even of the mind that life is actually more digital than analogue, that digital is the true recipe and that analogue is the imperfect , well, "analog."

Like our Decware tubes, all these devices deliver and impose differing compromises. Paul McGowan recently wrote at length on the topic of tube-vs-solid state, ending with his explanation of why he prefers to engineer in SS. And I thought his points were quite valid, especially those about the inherent "inaccuracies" of tubes. But it doesn't keep me from being much more engaged, in love with my tubes in a way that I never was with even the best of my SS amps and preamps, several costing much more two decades ago than my Decware equipment cost today.

Conversely, I am completely enthralled by my PSA PWD and its sound. So, I have this ultra-simple tube gear and very sophisticated digital storage and rendering device. They both sound great, as I suspect will Lon's new vinyl rig. It's wonderful to have all these delightful choices. It wasn't so long ago that digital was bad enough that it's primary virtue was convenience, even while vinyl seemed to be sinking into oblivion. Thankfully, neither is the case.
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #35 - 06/01/12 at 19:03:27
 
Man, just reading at your display of well versed, first hand experience-based accessory discussions, makes me wonder guys. This is such a complex field, that it would probably take years just to start getting a handle on its ever-changing essentials (as the technology keeps pushing new alternatives to try, all the time).

Under this perspective, isn't it complicating matters exponentially when you also decide to go for both existing sourcing setups (digital & analog)?  I mean, shouldn't the goal be to specialize in one of these choices and excell at it?  Isn't the whole objective to achieve the best possible sound, and if so, wouldn't you say this objective would be better served by sticking to one sourcing platform and optimize its application?

Shouldn't one invest time and resources in a matter that maximizes the chances of getting as close as possible to that holly grail of sound?  Do you really need to divest yourself in the pursue of parallel paths, which are theoretically aimed at the same objective?

I guess the answer to this question is always going to be 'yes, if you're having fun at it.'   Smiley

From a philosophical point of view, I agree with Pale Rider's position:  Digital is the best approximation we know of today to portray what the natural sound of music is all about.  Imperfect as it is, IMHO is well ahead of the peculiar physical constraint inheritance of the pressings era.

But hey, don't pay any attention to me ...  I don't intend to be judgemental, just thinking out loud.  Have fun guys!   Smiley
 
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« Last Edit: 06/01/12 at 19:18:54 by Fireblade »  

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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #36 - 06/01/12 at 19:13:59
 
Quote:
will, have you tried the firmer Tenderfeet with the Clarity? Might do the trick and the "symmetry" of the two components stacked with Tenderfeet might be just right. One never knows, do one?


Actually, I have to look back on my orders from Herbie's, but I feel sure at least one of my sets are the hard ones...perhaps all.... I will try to figure it out and see about the Tranquility. Thanks for the thought Lon.

Quote:
I got a very open and clear sound with the acrylic balls, and a very neutral fast signature.


Interesting. I am going to have to check these out!
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #37 - 06/01/12 at 19:55:59
 
Orangecrush, Definitely a killer combination. Acrylic balls can be used for a subtle difference that may not be worth it at all, it's all so system dependent.
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« Last Edit: 06/01/12 at 19:57:09 by Lon »  

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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #38 - 06/01/12 at 20:11:30
 
Fireblade wrote on 06/01/12 at 19:03:27:
Under this perspective, isn't it complicating matters exponentially when you also decide to go for both existing sourcing setups (digital & analog)?  I mean, shouldn't the goal be to specialize in one of these choices and excell at it?  Isn't the whole objective to achieve the best possible sound, and if so, wouldn't you say this objective would be better served by sticking to one sourcing platform and optimize its application?

Shouldn't one invest time and resources in a matter that maximizes the chances of getting as close as possible to that holly grail of sound?  Do you really need to divest yourself in the pursue of parallel paths, which are theoretically aimed at the same objective?

I guess the answer to this question is always going to be 'yes, if you're having fun at it.'   Smiley


What if that's not MY goal. That's NOT my goal. I don't want to anally pursue the very best possible sound. I want to get involving and immersing sound that allows me enjoy my recordings and new ones. I spent a few decades getting there with digital. And I left my vinyl behind. I now have over 15,000 digital discs to listen to. And I have the same 500 lps I had when I started the digital journey, and a few more as well. I've ignored those. I did the math: I could seek out digital copies of the essential ones of these and spend about as much or more as the equipment to play them back with great sound. And I get to have fun learning again about analog playback. I like the ritual of discs and spinning; I dislike the ease and convenience of musical files and streaming, PC Audio. This is another world of ritual and artifact to enter into. I have time on my hands. I have a tolerant lover who enjoys the fruits of my labor to bring musical playback into the home. Her first comment when I told her I was going to set up an analog rig was "Oh good, I'll bring records over, I miss my LPs." So it's a win win for me right there, sharing her music with her and my music with her.

I'm not after perfection. I come from a line of German perfectionists. I saw my grandfather just frustrate the living daylights out of himself trying to do everything perfectly, push it to the limits, control it. I swore I would not be that way and I worked hard not to be that way. My audio goal is discovery and enjoyment, not striving for the perfect sound. This journey into an analog realm is par for that course.

Fireblade wrote on 06/01/12 at 19:03:27:
From a philosophical point of view, I agree with Pale Rider's position:  Digital is the best approximation we know of today to portray what the natural sound of music is all about.  Imperfect as it is, IMHO is well ahead of the peculiar physical constraint inheritance of the pressings era.

But hey, don't pay any attention to me ...  I don't intend to be judgemental, just thinking out loud.  Have fun guys!   Smiley
 


I think digital is fantastic, that's obvious, I have all these discs and all these players and I can't not use them. Analog is different. I have to say I relax into good analog tape or vinyl in a way I never quite have with digital. So I'm looking forward to some of that relaxation. I'm not turning my back on digital. I have so much to listen to, a real benefit to my life. I'm just opening up a new realm of enjoyment, analog.
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« Last Edit: 06/01/12 at 20:12:47 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #39 - 06/01/12 at 22:07:58
 
Lon, just relax.  I'm not judging your decisions, I actually applaude your initiatives.  What I meant was that after seeing you discuss sound accessories' positioning (.. an inch here, a corner there ...) for, say, the isocups in your Torii, I felt like there was deep interest in great sound per se, also.

Maybe you're not even aware of it, but you are a perfectionist from what I've seen in your love for sound details, and that is fantastic if you get fun out of it.  Evidently, this does not seem to get in the way of exploring other music reproduction alternatives for you, as I can see.  My mistake.

On the other hand, I'm entitled to have an opinion and I just expressed it.  Peace, my friend.  :)
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« Last Edit: 06/02/12 at 01:14:49 by Fireblade »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #40 - 06/01/12 at 22:16:41
 
Quote:
What if that's not MY goal. That's NOT my goal. I don't want to anally pursue the very best possible sound. I want to get involving and immersing sound that allows me enjoy my recordings and new ones. I spent a few decades getting there with digital. And I left my vinyl behind. I now have over 15,000 digital discs to listen to. And I have the same 500 lps I had when I started the digital journey, and a few more as well. I've ignored those. I did the math: I could seek out digital copies of the essential ones of these and spend about as much or more as the equipment to play them back with great sound. And I get to have fun learning again about analog playback. I like the ritual of discs and spinning; I dislike the ease and convenience of musical files and streaming, PC Audio. This is another world of ritual and artifact to enter into. I have time on my hands. I have a tolerant lover who enjoys the fruits of my labor to bring musical playback into the home. Her first comment when I told her I was going to set up an analog rig was "Oh good, I'll bring records over, I miss my LPs." So it's a win win for me right there, sharing her music with her and my music with her.

I'm not after perfection. I come from a line of German perfectionists. I saw my grandfather just frustrate the living daylights out of himself trying to do everything perfectly, push it to the limits, control it. I swore I would not be that way and I worked hard not to be that way. My audio goal is discovery and enjoyment, not striving for the perfect sound. This journey into an analog realm is par for that course.


I'm with you here Lon. While I no longer have any of my vinyl—except my MFSL UHQR Sgt. Pepper disc [any chance you're interested?]—if I did, I would probably be thinking about doing exactly what you are doing. I listen to what I listen to for pure enjoyment. As most of y'all know, I have a sizable Decware investment, though it pales next to what some audiophiles spend. My children love my system and enjoy it. We use it every day, far more for casual enjoyment than for critical listening, and that is precisely how I want it. It is not difficult to hear what is not present in my system. I do not have room shaking bass, nor super highs that could float on a mosquito's fart. But I do have a system that sounds extremely musical, and complements our life. It is quite revealing of recordings and system components, but I suspect that that does not necessarily mean it is accurate, given all the vagaries of tubes, etc. I find its colorations immersive, so I get revelation without ruthlessness.

In contrast, the ritual of disc spinning holds little appeal to me, so much so that I have spent significant time and effort to be able to rip even my SACDs and store them on my server [obviously spinning discs in the process], reserving disc playback only for those discs that require the Oppo in order to be at their best [the Blu-Ray Opera gala is a stunner, just as Paul McGowan recommended, and as you know, I love the AIX 3D recordings]. But on 2-channel, it's zero spinning platters for me, as much as possible. As SSDs continue to come down in price, it won't be long before my network is non-mechanical. But if one finds enjoyment in such activities, I say "by all means, go for it!".

Hardly perfection, and like you, not the goal I pursue. I am looking forward to hearing your listening reports on the new rig.
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sberger
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #41 - 06/01/12 at 23:21:21
 
Lon wrote on 06/01/12 at 20:11:30:
What if that's not MY goal. That's NOT my goal. I don't want to anally pursue the very best possible sound. I want to get involving and immersing sound that allows me enjoy my recordings and new ones. I spent a few decades getting there with digital. And I left my vinyl behind. I now have over 15,000 digital discs to listen to. And I have the same 500 lps I had when I started the digital journey, and a few more as well. I've ignored those. I did the math: I could seek out digital copies of the essential ones of these and spend about as much or more as the equipment to play them back with great sound. And I get to have fun learning again about analog playback. I like the ritual of discs and spinning; I dislike the ease and convenience of musical files and streaming, PC Audio. This is another world of ritual and artifact to enter into. I have time on my hands. I have a tolerant lover who enjoys the fruits of my labor to bring musical playback into the home. Her first comment when I told her I was going to set up an analog rig was "Oh good, I'll bring records over, I miss my LPs." So it's a win win for me right there, sharing her music with her and my music with her.

I'm not after perfection. I come from a line of German perfectionists. I saw my grandfather just frustrate the living daylights out of himself trying to do everything perfectly, push it to the limits, control it. I swore I would not be that way and I worked hard not to be that way. My audio goal is discovery and enjoyment, not striving for the perfect sound. This journey into an analog realm is par for that course.


I think digital is fantastic, that's obvious, I have all these discs and all these players and I can't not use them. Analog is different. I have to say I relax into good analog tape or vinyl in a way I never quite have with digital. So I'm looking forward to some of that relaxation. I'm not turning my back on digital. I have so much to listen to, a real benefit to my life. I'm just opening up a new realm of enjoyment, analog.


Perfectly said from the non perfectionist. Wink

Look it's like I alluded to the other day. Why limit yourself to only one medium when you can have as many as you want. Vinyl requires more effort(although not nearly as much as some would have you believe) for great sound than digital, but digital allows for simplicity and also allows for, although not as much required, playing around to get great sound. If you want to. I personally also like streaming from my Squeezebox Touch because it allows access to 40,000 + songs from my collection instantly. Also solves some storage issues which is helpful for SEF(spousal enjoyment factor...always comes back to that doesn't it?). The bottom line is that you can put together a system that gets you pretty damn close to perfection if you want to for all mediums. Or at least as close as you want. Not really that difficult.

The takeaway here is that there are some very cool, intelligent folks on this forum, and luckily for most of them it always comes back to the music.
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Donnie
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #42 - 06/01/12 at 23:35:37
 
I just listen to music. Hell, my stereo probably sounds like crap compared to everyone else's and I don't care. It sounds great to me.
The persuit of perfection is a fools folly. If you can mesure it, it will never be perfect. Just keep adding numbers to the right of the decimal point, sooner or later something will show up as wrong.
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #43 - 06/02/12 at 00:14:36
 
Fireblade wrote on 06/01/12 at 22:07:58:
Lon, just relax.  I'm not judging your decisions, I actually applaude your initiatives.  What I meant was that after seeing you discuss sound accessories' positioning (.. an inch here, a corner there ...) for, say, the isocups in your Torii, I felt like there was deep interest in great sound per se, also.

Maybe you're not even aware of it, but you are a perfectionist from what I've seen in your love for sound details, and that is fantastic if you get fun out of it.  Evidently, this does not seem to get in the way of exploring other music reproduction alternatives for you, as I can see.  My mistake.

On the other hand, I'm entitled to have an opinion and I just expressed it.  Peace, my friend.  :)


FB, I certainly wasn't upset. I just didn't want your assumption that I'm looking for perfect sound go unchallenged. Of course I'm interested in great sound, but that doesn't mean one has to be on a perfectionist's search.

Yes, I had fun moving IsoCups around today because I got to participate in this with a couple other audiophiles, it was fun, and it would be nice if I found a new positioning that would get the amp to favor the bulk of my recordings. Interestingly, I ended up with the IsoCups right back where they were beforehand, that's just what seems to work best with my material in my room. I wasn't looking for perfection as much as I was "homogeneity" --- a sound that I could listen to my worst and my best recordings within/through/with. A quest for homogeneity is hardly a quest for perfection!

I know my family members and I know what perfectionism is in this family. If I were to become an audio perfectionist I'd have my house up for sale and buy 30,000 dollars of dcs digital equipment, and/or a turntable a billionaire would own, and I'd hire Steve to spend a month just working for me building me my ultimate amplification and speaker set. Or be on some spiritual quest for the angels to talk to me through a headhone amp and headphones. I'm far away from Armstrong/Cassler family perfectionism. And intend to stay that way. It already cost me dearly in my youth, and my veering away was the best thing I've done.

I just couldn't disagree more with your statement, it's not my way. I can fully respect it as your way or anyone else's.

I've already set up a vinyl rig in my bedroom system, I have an old B&O turtable in there that needs some work, and my PS Audio GCPH arrived and is set up. I also got a homemade preamp that I got off audiogon in the mail today, it was a good delivery day, and so that is all warming up with the Torii Mk II, preliminary sound is really nice. Not the best listening room, but that's fun too. My pal Dave is coming over soon to check it out, we were over at his house yesterday listening to lps on the rig I set up for him, some Crusaders, Burning Spear, Vivaldi and as almost every time we get together, some Miles Davis. I expect by next week I'll have the Rega here and a few cables I ordered, and will set up in the main  system and do some serious exploratory vinyl listening! Looking forward to it. It's my kind of "work." Smiley
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« Last Edit: 06/02/12 at 00:56:13 by Lon »  

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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #44 - 06/02/12 at 00:29:45
 
Cool, and well-made three input tube preamp I got from audiogon, sounds quite nice. It's not quite a CSP2 (at least not yet) but should tide me over well til my CSP2+ arrives. We'll see. i will say it's very cool to buy it yesterday and have it today! The builder knows what he's doing. Lots of persons build with this circuit.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/12au7-preamplifier-srpp-diy?show_listing=true





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« Last Edit: 06/02/12 at 01:01:44 by Lon »  

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