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3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii? (Read 13208 times)
Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #100 - 06/09/12 at 13:08:44
 
Will,

Boy, was I wrong! I was missing a very obvious source of sound degradation right there and wasn't aware of it.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  Now it is of the outmost importance for me to de-couple the speakers from the amplifier's platform.  You see, I was so constrained to adapting the gear to those decor conditions, I missed one of the biggest flaws with it.

No wonder I was suffering from all kinds of soundstage limitations and lacking proper imaging ... with a gear like this it is a crime, indeed.  I feel embarrased!  The funny thing is, it's such a good gear it can fool you with all the other sound benefits in spite of this situation.  This, and the fact that I was blaming the break-in period all this time, man!

I'll have a carpenter build me a couple of 18"- 20" (or 24"- 26" if I don't use the ramps) stands for the speakers and I'm going to use them in the right position (into the room) moving them in and out on every session.  Not the most practical approach but a working tradeoff.  Bass performance will improve also.

The other alternative, as I explained, is to move everything to that small spare room.  I wanted to ask you if you think this may work.  The dimensions on that room are as follows:

Depth: 12'; Width: 9'; Height: 7' 10"  very symmetrical.

I have drapers on the bottom wall (by the window) and can certainly arrange placing some wall carpets or something similar on the side walls, and put a floor carpet covering a good portion on that floor.  I would make a carpenter build me a center rack for the amp, DAC and computer, and two speaker stands as described earlier.  Would this work, you think?

I'm sorry I had you guys study this problem without previously explaining exactly how I had my setup, physically.  Thanks again for your support.
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 13:41:09 by Fireblade »  

Toshiba-Foobar2K-ASIO Direct-WD 2.0Tb HDD-Schiit USB cable-Schiit Yggdrasil DAC-Decware Silver Ref IC's-Decware Mini Torii SE-8PR Kimber Kable spkr cbls-Decware DM945's-Tekton Lore 2-Velodyne DLS 3500 SUB-BJC SUB Cbls-Tripp Lite 500 Isolation Trnsf-Jellyfish S
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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #101 - 06/09/12 at 15:38:43
 
I don't know how much vibration control will help, but I suspect a lot.

I think I would fully explore the speaker placement, with optimal vibration control, within your chosen space first. The ramps may be fine. Or you may need to level. I really would try the speakers level, and at the right height, perhaps making toe and width tweaking easier also. Or perhaps with new stands, you can find a permanent position that sounds great, even if a little close to the wall.

But here are some good things to look at:

http://www.decware.com/paper36.htm
http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
http://www.decware.com/paper39.htm
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 15:39:20 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #102 - 06/09/12 at 17:28:02
 
I just don't think it wise to keep the speakers resting in the same table shared by amp and the rest, due to those speakers' vibrations.  I agree with you also on trying to reduce shock waves from the back wall (from the speakers) affecting the amp.  In both instances, isolators would help, but it does not make sense to have the speakers there to start with.

I think I would still require placing feet under the speakers, on top of new stands (just ordered a 26" high pair from a local wood shop, in rustic wood to start with), and also under the amp, as well as dampers in drivers and output tubes.  But I will never place those speakers back in that same furniture table.

With the new 26" stands, the overall tweeter level raises to 40", my ear level while seating.  Since the speakers would be now placed well into the room, the floor carpet should prevent excessive bass reflections from the floor.  This way I can eliminate the need for the ramps and adjust toeing easier, as you said.

The inconvenience with this approach is having to move them back and forth every listening time.  The alternative, again, is the spare room.

Even though I understand your suggestion of trying to keep the speakers where they are, using isolators for every component, I really think we'll be pushing it and the bass cannot develop (and maybe even soundstage) if speakers are not quite removed from any of the walls, which I could not achieve keeping those speakers in the original spot.

Thanks for the references, which I'll check soon enough.  Take care now ...
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Rivieraranch
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #103 - 06/09/12 at 19:22:05
 
"The room" seems like an alternative that is worth exploring. It is The Wife's hidden message to get this gear into one place.
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Lon
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #104 - 06/09/12 at 21:39:29
 
It's been a week and the homebrew preamp is nicely seasoned in and impressing me more. There's still a fundamental signature difference between this and CSP2, this one is a bit more "midrange oriented" and a touch less open on top and bottom, but that has become less pronounced this week.

One ore cryoset.com cable made it into the system, which really helped raised the sonics from my Denon SACD/DAC into the player, and thus helping the preamp to sound its best.

I've been enjoying SACD releases in the EMI Signature Series today, Lizst, Debussy, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart. Beautiful music, great sound.
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will
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #105 - 06/09/12 at 22:05:25
 
FB,

I said the ramps MAY BE fine (with proper vibration control). And I said "within your chosen space" meaning room, not the exact location. The exact location clearly has issues. But we don't know how much of the trouble is vibration until you solve that, and you could likely decouple things pretty well while giving good vibration resolution with the right tools. I continue to speculate that the down and dirty soundstage stuff is more speaker placement and/or room though. And though I can't explain why, intuitively I have never liked the ramp concept. This is why I keep pointing to level explorations and stands.

The reason I suggested exploring within the room you are in, and with adjusting that general arrangement, is that you chose this in the first place, and that you may be invested in it for various reasons. And it may be possible to adjust this without a lot of messing around like moving the speakers each session, particularly if you can get the speakers on stands.

For myself and my wife, though we have no room for a dedicated listening room, we much prefer having the system in our main living areas because music is a big part of our day, "passive" and serious listening happening a lot. So against odds, I made our living room a dedicated listening room that sounds brilliant, and looks pretty much like a living room.

The links are all about setting up the other room, though the information can be used in your current room. That would be the obvious "audiophile" choice as RR suggests. If the gear or music is a problem where it is, and there is no downside, the dedicated room could be treated aesthetically as such...a music listening room with whatever you need for a good sound room.

I like the idea of the stands and think this is a good move no matter what, but I suspect that some decoupling from them will be good too, either spikes, or one of Herbie's decoupling dots under the speakers and/or decoupling under the stands. I have always found my speakers sound notably better on spikes than not, even with plinths.

Getting up with Herbie's and getting that thing going will be a good move no matter if the gear stays in the room it is in, or moves to a dedicated environment.

Good Luck with it...you will get there.
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« Last Edit: 06/09/12 at 22:08:49 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, Archie's, isocups, DIY
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Fireblade
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Re: 3 or 4 Isocups under the Torii?
Reply #106 - 06/10/12 at 02:55:15
 
That's fine, Will, I got you the first time, but I insist in not creating problems by design.  The only reason why I wanted the gear in the livingroom, is exactly the one you pointed out, more of a socially oriented activity.  But, all this time I assumed there was nothing wrong with having the speakers in the same furniture table, until you correctly made me realize the vibration issue, which is not trivial by any means.  

The problem is, there's no way I can place those speakers permanently into that livingroom on stands.  Aesthetically and logistically these would be on the way.  Either these remain in that table or on stands, which would have to be placed in the right spot every listening session.  Just imagine the speaker cables crossing through that hallway to reach the speakers' spot!  I mean, I can live with it while I'm listening, but the socially attractive concept went by the window, sort of speak.  Besides, even guiding those cables properly all the way there would take a very long cable also, and won't be aesthetically welcome.

Now, if I were to isolate everything in that table, including the speakers, we'll never fully develop the soundstage and bass potential of this gear.  So, I will use the new stands, level the speakers at ears' height and simply move them back to that furniture table when finished.  The stands are easy to put away.  I would still pursue some isolation under the speakers and amp.  

According to those references, my spare room is almost there (only one foot too large on depth, everything else just fine), so eventually that could be the resting place for this gear.  In the meantime, I will have a chance to corroborate my feelings about soundstage and bass potential improvements with the stands temporarily placed well into the livingroom.

About your suggestion to adapt the livingroom, I would need to re-decor the whole area from scratch, and that's a tougher job than doing it on the spare room.  We happen to like the way the livingroom is layed out and re-designing it may not be convincing, especially because of the stands having to be placed in the middle of the other furniture, having cables running about, etc.

Anyway, Will, thanks to your observations I will be able, eventually, to almost maximize the potential of this great gear.  I just imagine those drivers moving over that table and sending all those vibes to the Mini-Torii.  I can now also 'see' that sonic turbulence created in the back wall and hitting those tiny tubes ... It is actually quite intuitive to assume placing those speakers there is a No-No.  I don't know the capabilities of those vibration isolators, but man, why create the problem to start with.  

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see it this way now, and I may change my mind later, depending on how things work out.   Smiley  My new stands are supposed to be ready by wednesday.

Thanks so much again for your excellent support.
 
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« Last Edit: 06/10/12 at 14:35:56 by Fireblade »  

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