FB,

I can't say for sure, but believe Bob must place these tweeters specifically for soundstage development. It may be that your upward angle is too much???...that the tweeters should be pointing at ear level. So other than toe in and out, and other speaker placement, right/left/forward, I might think about the tweeter projection.

And though asymmetrical walls can help with resonance and reflections, particularly standing waves, if the surfaces are reflective, they will still be there, just running around differently.

Will,

The lift angle on my speakers are directed to my ear levels, that's why I designed the ramps with that inclination.  In my listening room, two of the walls (back one and right hand side) are mostly naked.  The other two have thick drapes.  The floor in front of both the gear and the sweet spot is covered by a thick carpet.  The wall on the right hand side is farthest from that side's speaker (about 6' or 7' away).

Let me elaborate further what I was complaining about yesterday:  Most of my music listening happens to be from older recordings.  Both classical music and Bebop.  I understand about half of these recordings were originally monaural, and the posterior remastering subsided this in most cases by replicating passages for both channels at different intensities (or something of the sort).  This may have produced this sound 'clustering' from the different instruments on each of the channels, depending on the remastering design.

When I listened to normal recordings, there's a more natural soundstage, but never wide or deep enough.  It was even worst when having the speakers toed-in.  When I placed them straightforwards, I found a very tangible improvement.  I did not want to go further (toe-out) because I was afraid of loosing details.

When I listen to audiophile recordings (nothing fancy, not even SACDs, but well recorded stuff, and sometimes 24/96 quality, everything is amazing, including soundstage, although the latter was relatively less pronounced.

Come last night:  I opened up the toeing on the speakers, initially about an inch or so, then a further two inches out.  Things got tangibly better.  Especially somewhere between the 1" and the 2" marks.  I was not able to move the furniture table into the room to increase the speakers' distance from the back wall, as I would have made noises that I did not want that late in the evening.  I'm planning to do that later on today.

So far, the original tendency of my speakers to work better facing away from each other has proven correct and on the right direction.  Thanks to your suggestion (I would have never attempted the toe-out approach), I discovered that this works even better and details remain.

Last night I listened to normally recorded selections, old remastering classical music with bit imaging techniques and some audiophile ones, and they all sounded better (audiophile recordings are so great!), and the soundstage presented itself within the continuum from one speaker to the other one, filling in the gaps and showing some kind of imaging of some instruments.  Definitely an improvement!

I want to replicate that today, listen to other, less fortunate recordings and compare this behavior under daytime power conditions.  We'll see.  Back to the listening room conditions, I haven't mentioned that right in front of each speaker I have two big leather couches (1 seat each) respectively, and a leather long sofa in front of both, at the other side of the room (opposing wall).  I'm worried about those two couches as they are slightly less than 3 feet from the speakers when I push them into the room as much as I can on that same furniture table position.

I will also try moving the whole furniture table holding the gear, further into the room, and see what improvements I make (although, as I said, I would hate to have to do this on every listening!).  I'll let you guys know later on ...

Lon, yeah its funny how my speakers just would not take toe-in nicely.  That was my first placement and left it there for 10 days or so, until I decided to put them straightforward.

I'll check on the gliders if I need to move the furniture every time    Thanks!

I know it seems insane how these isolation issues work, but I honestly think if you are going to keep the equipment on that piece, the gliders might be the best isolation piece to try first, they do a good job of decoupling from the floor that will benefit amp and DAC and speakers. You might ask Steve Herbelin at Herbie's Audio for advice, he's got really sensible ears and ideas. When I lived temporarily in Houston for most of two years he gave me really good advice on how to decouple small bookshelf speakers I was using on a music file based system then, the little feet and "dots" he recommended were an inexpensive and very significant improvement for me then, I was actually very surprised how effectively they worked.

I'll just say that in every room I've had a system in two houses over the last twenty-plus years starting out with the speakers a quarter to a third into the room just made them sing properly, and my late wife (who had very good ears, especially high frequency hearing) enjoyed the sound enough to let me arrange the rooms to allow this spacing. There are constraints to imaging etc. when this isn't so. . . .Worth experimenting with.

Not conclusive part two of today's test.  A strong thunderstorm prevented me from playing around enough with the placement as I was worried about some damage to the gear.  Not likely, but just a precaution.

During the time I was at it, though, I was only able to distance the speakers from the back wall some further 6 inches, for a total of 24".  I then discovered a very tangible deeper bass across all recordings.  As if the back port had a better chance to improve its job over the larger distance.

Soundstage may have improved too, but I still need to confirm this, as the distance from the back wall was not enough, but a step in the right direction, I'm sure.  Tight bass I had, but now it goes deeper, and will eventually develop further as the speakers (somehow) are placed more into the room.  I hope this will correlate also with a deeper and wider soundstage.

Lessons to take home in my case: Toe-out works better and close back wall reflections make both bass and soundstage flatter. There.  If I can combine this with isolation devices, this would be the answer, I think.

Will,

Boy, was I wrong! I was missing a very obvious source of sound degradation right there and wasn't aware of it.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  Now it is of the outmost importance for me to de-couple the speakers from the amplifier's platform.  You see, I was so constrained to adapting the gear to those decor conditions, I missed one of the biggest flaws with it.

No wonder I was suffering from all kinds of soundstage limitations and lacking proper imaging ... with a gear like this it is a crime, indeed.  I feel embarrased!  The funny thing is, it's such a good gear it can fool you with all the other sound benefits in spite of this situation.  This, and the fact that I was blaming the break-in period all this time, man!

I'll have a carpenter build me a couple of 18"- 20" (or 24"- 26" if I don't use the ramps) stands for the speakers and I'm going to use them in the right position (into the room) moving them in and out on every session.  Not the most practical approach but a working tradeoff.  Bass performance will improve also.

The other alternative, as I explained, is to move everything to that small spare room.  I wanted to ask you if you think this may work.  The dimensions on that room are as follows:

Depth: 12'; Width: 9'; Height: 7' 10"  very symmetrical.

I have drapers on the bottom wall (by the window) and can certainly arrange placing some wall carpets or something similar on the side walls, and put a floor carpet covering a good portion on that floor.  I would make a carpenter build me a center rack for the amp, DAC and computer, and two speaker stands as described earlier.  Would this work, you think?

I'm sorry I had you guys study this problem without previously explaining exactly how I had my setup, physically.  Thanks again for your support.

I just don't think it wise to keep the speakers resting in the same table shared by amp and the rest, due to those speakers' vibrations.  I agree with you also on trying to reduce shock waves from the back wall (from the speakers) affecting the amp.  In both instances, isolators would help, but it does not make sense to have the speakers there to start with.

I think I would still require placing feet under the speakers, on top of new stands (just ordered a 26" high pair from a local wood shop, in rustic wood to start with), and also under the amp, as well as dampers in drivers and output tubes.  But I will never place those speakers back in that same furniture table.

With the new 26" stands, the overall tweeter level raises to 40", my ear level while seating.  Since the speakers would be now placed well into the room, the floor carpet should prevent excessive bass reflections from the floor.  This way I can eliminate the need for the ramps and adjust toeing easier, as you said.

The inconvenience with this approach is having to move them back and forth every listening time.  The alternative, again, is the spare room.

Even though I understand your suggestion of trying to keep the speakers where they are, using isolators for every component, I really think we'll be pushing it and the bass cannot develop (and maybe even soundstage) if speakers are not quite removed from any of the walls, which I could not achieve keeping those speakers in the original spot.

Thanks for the references, which I'll check soon enough.  Take care now ...

It's been a week and the homebrew preamp is nicely seasoned in and impressing me more. There's still a fundamental signature difference between this and CSP2, this one is a bit more "midrange oriented" and a touch less open on top and bottom, but that has become less pronounced this week.

One ore cryoset.com cable made it into the system, which really helped raised the sonics from my Denon SACD/DAC into the player, and thus helping the preamp to sound its best.

I've been enjoying SACD releases in the EMI Signature Series today, Lizst, Debussy, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart. Beautiful music, great sound.