Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
09/24/17 at 11:30:49 



 
 


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
New Torii owner - help with tube rolling. (Read 12984 times)
sberger
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 179
Re: New Torii owner I'll- help with tube rolling.
Reply #50 - 05/18/12 at 19:11:16
 
And now to throw another new flavor into the mix I got my quad of "Mullard" El34's today from Tube Depot and promptly put them in. On first listen a slightly warmer, less forward presentation than either the JJ's or EH's. Not bad at all. As with all of these varieties the price is right so no harm no foul in trying them out and having them around in case of a blow out. Will report back after some mileage is put on them. Have you guys tried the Mullards?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #51 - 05/18/12 at 19:30:52
 
I had a pair in my SE34 Monoblocks and my SE34I.2 and enjoyed them. Have not tried a quad yet in the Torii--in the Torii I've used Winged C EL34, Svetlana EL34, Tungsol (reissue) El34, JJ and now EH.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 05/18/12 at 19:46:18 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #52 - 05/18/12 at 20:42:28
 
I have not tried the new Mullards. I have NOS RFT labeled Brinmar, Winged C, cryoset Tungsol, cryoset Ruby's (EL34BSTR fat bottle), Groove Tube #7, "raw" JJ 6CA7, and my favorite these days, cryoset JJ 6CA7.

Both JJs sound good, and the differences in my system are not huge, but definitely notable. The cryoset JJs are more refined with more black, smoother, more open, tighter bass, more ambient details, more saturated sound stage. The raw are softer with a more fuzed together sound, a little more edgy, though the edge to me is somewhat tempered by the distortions (???) the cryoset process removes. They seem a little more forgiving and warmer to me, but I think they are just less refined. I like the the raw ones, but personally, I keep wanting the cryos after I stick in the raw ones in.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 05/18/12 at 22:20:06 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #53 - 05/23/12 at 14:40:33
 
Curious to know how many of you broke the torii in with the shipped tubes versus those who tube rolled immediately after receiving the amp.  I am going to be receiving the amp in the next couple weeks and haven't decided the route to take.  I have some paired amperex bugle boys 6dj8, cryo'd quad set of mullard el34, nos tesla 6922, couple new jj's and a couple random nos rectifier tubes around.  
Patience is not a virtue of mine so would appreciate any and all comments/advice.

thanx
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #54 - 05/23/12 at 16:02:55
 
JD,

I changed the rectifiers and input tubes right off, knowing from my previous amp that I liked the 50's RCA 5U4G-ST's over the Rubys, and I can't recall the inputs...maybe bugle boys or cryoset 6N23Ps. This tube preference was corroborated by comparing these tubes in the Torii, but my previous SE34I+ was family sound-wise.

Then since I had bass issues with the Torii's introduction to my system/room, I started playing with OB3 and OC3 Voltage Regulators and some 5AR4/GZ34 pretty fast. More room treatment, speaker adjustments, and very specific EQ in computer were bigger solutions for this, but I am glad I got these other tubes because they helped at the time and also opened a lot of doors for tube exploration and discovery. Finally (with lots of tubes of all types in the cupboard) fine-tuned synergy with various tube combinations is a lot of fun for me.

The JJ 6AC7 in my system/room took a long time to show what they were really about and to me were worth the wait. I prefer cryoset ones, but the "raw" ones sound quite good in my setup too.

Unless you have some system room incompatibility, you will be hearing great sound from the start, but you will also be burning in the amp internals, so it may be that broken in tubes could possibly help you get what you like during the breakin. Easy enough to find out. I always do whatever I can to just love the sound, be it cable or tube rolling, speaker placement, or whatever. It is so easy to roll if you choose to.

Then there are the bass and treble knobs, and the bias and impedance switches. So on the other hand, the amp is voiced well and there may be some merit to burning everything in at once as you get to know the amp.

I don't know what your old amp was, but I think the Torii is so revealing that breakin does not suck, but it is a notable deal in serious listening mode. In my system, everything perceptibly matters, especially after 200-300 hours on the stock amp. So if you do roll, I think it is relevant to consider that the sound you get from the tubes you use will change some after the amp and/or tubes burn in fully, so a subtle like or dislike now may become a different thing in several months. And this becomes even more relevant after finding system/room synergy with cables and gear. At this point, my system synergy is so complete that it will sound great with any decent tube given the right combination.

I just go for the best I can toward my personal tastes and room. But I have been called a tweaker.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 05/23/12 at 16:11:53 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #55 - 05/23/12 at 16:24:10
 
My experience is very similar to will's and I thank him for his detailed response.

I broke mine in with the stock tubes with the exception of the Ruby rectifiers, I've a long history of disliking those so I put in RCA brand ones that I knew had worked well in my Integrated (like will I owned that amp before a Torii) and my Torii Mk II.

Besides the Rubys I believe that the stock tubes are a good choice and a good way to get a handle on the "basic sound" of the amp. But there's no reason to not start with your own choice of compatible tubes, as long as you keep in mind as will pointed out that there will be a change in sound as the amp and tubes season. I think this amp gets better and better as time goes by, and the owner understands how to tailor it to his own taste and listening material.

You've chosen an excellent amp! An adventure awaits you!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #56 - 05/23/12 at 16:51:45
 
Thanks guys I am really getting excited/ slightly anxious...I am moving from solid state to tube so all of your advice is really helpful.  I am also going to be breaking in Zen Styx and have ERR's and the CSP2+ preamp on order.  I have been saving up for a while and I want to get full enjoyment along with the full understanding of what and how I am doing it.
Thanks again.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #57 - 05/24/12 at 00:50:55
 
Exciting times coming!
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #58 - 07/23/12 at 16:56:13
 
Looking for comments regarding the RCA 5U4GB rectifiers in the Torii MK3. Also, can anyone identify the vintage, based on the following pic? There are no date codes on the tubes, just a "BN".
Back to top
 

RCA_5U4GB.jpg

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #59 - 07/23/12 at 17:18:04
 
I did some digging an the BN stamp appears to be from May 1967, so I'm not sure how these would compare sonically, to the fifties vintage.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #60 - 07/23/12 at 17:24:38
 
These are going to be good tubes in the Mk III based on my experience; I used a pair of similar vintage in my Integrated and then in my Torii for some time. Will have a darker, punchier sound than the stock tubes. In my experience the fifties and sixties share a family sound. The fifties may be a bit more revealing of fine detail than the sixties of tubes I've had, which may or may not be a good thing. . . .
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #61 - 07/23/12 at 23:56:37
 
Thanks Lon. I suspect almost any NOS 5U4G will be an improvement over the stock Rubys. Someone even recommended and suggested the $20 Winged "C" (SED) 5U4G would provide a big improvement.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #62 - 07/24/12 at 01:17:50
 
I agree with Lon's assessment. I have some RCAs that look just like these, and they are the darkest of my Rectifiers, of which I have many. Last I listened, these were also my least favorite, though I should try them again.

I tend to like the inner detail and spaciousness from the tall bottle 5U4G-B shape. May be coincidence, but all that I have share this quality in different ways. And there is something about those 40s and 50s tubes too, though I really like some later ones as well.

So if these are a little dark, you might check ebay for some tall bottles. Haven't checked lately, but I bought a bunch over time very inexpensively. And actually, the Rectifier for me seems to be a primary rolling tube these days for fine tuning.

Lately I am enjoying some 50s Svetlana Winged C 5U4G-STs, tubes I did not like at first, even after quite a few hours of burnin. I think it is synergy with the set I am using, but also, I think mine were actually new tubes and they took a while to clarify and balance (I guess 70-80 hours).
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #63 - 07/24/12 at 01:43:04
 
Thanks for sharing will. I'm not looking for dark (just came from there). I'm looking for something to take a bit of the edge off. The amp has around 500 hours on it. Stock tubes, except for Treasures and it has the VCAPS.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #64 - 07/24/12 at 04:46:07
 
Seems like you are over the edge on the Treasure burnin, and maybe over the hard part of the Vcaps by most reports, but I think a range of 5U4Gs is not a bad idea, broken in caps or not. But then I am a tube roller.

A lot of tubes will soften the edge a bit. Guessing the RCAs you have are doing that??? Question being, is it too far for your tastes...too dark and/or too much density? Do you like them, or how would you change them if you could?

Also, don't know if you use tube dampers. Herbiesaudiolabs dampers will smooth things out.


Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #65 - 07/25/12 at 18:48:04
 
I'm not really interested in tube rolling at the present time, however I do want to swap out the stock Rubys. The RCA's appear to be most popular, so I'm just trying to decide on which model/vintage and a recommended place to buy.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #66 - 07/25/12 at 19:44:18
 
So do you own those RCA's pictured?

Or if you don't have the RCA reference, would less edgy than the Rubys be your only criteria... Like would you prefer warmth, or neutrality...Some Raytheon and Tungsols have some really nice smooth, warmth without detail sacrifice.

My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed.

I am listening to Ruby's now with some quite warm early 60's Amperex 6922 SQs, and it sounds great to me, the Ruby's bringing in some nice openness to these inputs that tend a little to heavy warmth for me.

I don't have any typical tall bottle RCA's, but have found tall bottles less dark/more open than short. It is possible this is based somewhat on the coincidence of the individual tubes I have, but I definitely see this pattern in my rectifiers. The tall RCA 5U4GB's I do have, I believe may be from the early 50s. They are extra tall with the internals are like RCA 5U4G-STs. These tubes are open, extended, smooth, and have a lot of finesse. They are on the brighter side of the range, but not as bright seeming as the Ruby...being notably smoother with this tube set.

I see no reason to pay high for rectifiers if you can find what you want on Ebay. And if the tubes test good and match, I don't care if they are NOS, in fact being glad to have them broken in. I do look carefully to see that they are the same construction...same getters, bottles, plates...etc.

Anyway, if you give me a good description of how you would change the Ruby, I can suggest some tubes that I think would go there.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/25/12 at 21:30:28 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #67 - 07/25/12 at 21:19:21
 
Sorry...no. They were available, so I was looking for input.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #68 - 07/25/12 at 21:31:17
 
Got you. Sorry I wrote more as you responded, check the above post.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #69 - 07/25/12 at 21:53:44
 
Something along these lines...

"My idea of "warmth" is having a darker thing happening compared to "neutral" but with natural and smooth detail to allow an inner spaciousness and texture. Warm feeling without leaving a sense of dark/restricted/ closed".

I just moved from a vintage Scott 299, which is quite dark. The Torii is quite different and I am learning to love it with each play. That being said, I listen to quite a bit of classic rock and find the amp to be a bit bright at volume for those types of recordings, so I guess I'm looking for a bit of warmth. I'm not interested in tube rolling at the moment, but would like to replace the Rubys and let the amp continue to break-in...if that makes sense.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/25/12 at 22:17:24 by Hipfan »  

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #70 - 07/25/12 at 23:50:14
 
Being cheap, and offering different tonal characters, I think you might do well to pick up both of these. They are not exactly like the tubes I have but quite close in construction and the same companies. I suspect (hopefully!@#$%^&*) close enough to anticipate similar sound. I think the Raytheon will be warm but rich, and the Sylvania more open like the Ruby, but more refined....a bit warmer, richer, and smoother. The 3rd link, the Tungsol is closer to the Raytheon, on the warmer side, another good looking tube.

My system/room and ears, and synergy between tubes is real and can create some anomalies, but I think these will chill down the edge you are experiencing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Raytheon-5U4GB-5U4GA-5U4-rectifier-vacuum-tube-Blac...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-5u4gb-Sylvania-Rectifier-Tubes-O-Getters-Black-Plate...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-tall-Tung-Sol-USA-5U4GB-black-plate-matching-pair-5U4G...
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/25/12 at 23:51:19 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #71 - 07/25/12 at 23:53:39
 
Then of course there are the RCA 5U4G-STs...smoother than the Rubys, but I think 5U4GBs are worth a try and won't break the bank.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #72 - 07/26/12 at 00:42:09
 
Thanks for taking the time will. I'm familiar with all 3 auctions. I've been hunting and just trying to decide which way to go and your feedback is a great help. It's a fun and interesting hobby. I'm learning quickly that the same model tube can sound completely different in the same model amp, depending on tube mix, listening room, etc, etc, etc. I'm starting to understand why people tube roll. It's about experimenting and finding the mix/combination that is to one's liking. Cheers
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #73 - 07/26/12 at 03:32:46
 
Yes I think that is the tube rolling thing...it gives you a way to fine-tune to your tastes within the givens of your system/room.

But I think there is comparative reality. If we both have MK IIIs...then comparing the nature of one particular tube within one tube type, with another tube of the same type...you can get relatively clear about the attributes of those tubes, and how the tube's characters compare. That is if you keep a baseline of all other tubes, adjustments and the rest being left the same during the comparison.

I hope you find something that sounds good to you. It is a lot of fun!
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #74 - 07/28/12 at 17:53:48
 
I picked up a set of the Sylvania 5U4GB's. I found a set of the RCA 5U4G-ST for a good price. The guy also had a set of the GE 5U4G-ST. How does the GE compare to the other brands, sonically speaking?
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #75 - 07/28/12 at 18:03:52
 
I haven't compared GE in that tube type. I have GE 5Y3GT and OA3 tubes, and they have a muscular, slightly recessed high frequency sound, less open than RCA and Sylvania that I have to compare in those types.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #76 - 07/28/12 at 21:49:39
 
Hipfan, I hope the Sylvainias do what you wanted. The reason I recommended getting both those and the Raytheon was that they were both cheap, and also nice revealing tubes...the Sylvania in the direction you wanted, but likely closer to the Ruby, and the Raytheon further tending to the warm. And since semantics a is a wildcard (as well as vintage and construction of the tubes), between them I figured you would likely get a fit, while having good tubes of different character you could roll if you get into that.

The ST thing is tricky, and I have not researched the real story, but I think a lot of them are made by the same people with different labels. What I find is that plate width (the inner T-part of the plate the wires goes through can be wider or narrower), whether they have an additional pair wires between the plates...and perhaps mica shape..These appear to indicate vintage, but most importantly, variations in sound.

All my STs have ribbed black plates, and I am guessing some are made by RCA (labeled Westinghouse and RCA), and one pair with the additional internal wires (labelled Raytheon and Sylvania) made by Sylvania or Raytheon???? or are they just earlier vintage RCAs????.

For mine the getter difference seems to have less sound effect than plate/mica combo...which I can't differentiate since mine have matched plate and mica structures for each of the pairs, and each pair is different from the others.

With one pair, the one with additional, central internal wires, and with medium width central part of the plate T, and with round top mica (no spurs), is the most open...closest to the Ruby sound but I think smoother. The pair with a thinner internal T part of the plates, and with round top mica with spurs, is in the middle sound-wise. And the widest central plate T (where the T "base" extends past the vertical wires that go up the plates) and with rectangular/spurred top mica, are the most liquid/warm. I can't say one is better than another, just different.

The one thing I would do, is be sure the tubes you choose are identical in structure.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/28/12 at 21:53:45 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #77 - 07/29/12 at 00:05:55
 
The seller also had a pair of Raytheon 5U4GB's which he threw in for $13, so I will roll these pairs, to see how I like them, before I pickup the RCA 5U4G-ST's.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #78 - 07/29/12 at 02:36:39
 
Ah, soon you will be swapping tubes!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #79 - 07/29/12 at 04:05:57
 
I am glad you got hold of the Raytheons too. Better chances of finding synergy with two choices. Looking forward to your impressions. Lucky for us, the MkIII's adjustment switches and knobs make fine tuning to a tube easy.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/29/12 at 04:08:06 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #80 - 08/16/12 at 01:01:24
 
Finally home from vacation and my tubes were here when I arrived. This is my first time tube rolling and I have a question. The stock Rubys have 4 pins. The Sylvania's have 8 pins and the Raytheon's have 5 pins. Is there a reason for this?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/16/12 at 01:02:24 by Hipfan »  

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #81 - 08/16/12 at 04:55:55
 
I don't know the answer to your question. Of my 5U4G-ST and 5U4GB, by far most have 5 pins. My ruby's have 4 like yours. And my current fav, some 60's Sylvania 5U4GB have 8. I have some 50's and 70's Sylvanias with 5.

Got me. Maybe someone can tell us why the variation.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lord Soth
Seasoned Member
****


I'm an American
BadAss!

Posts: 300
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #82 - 08/17/12 at 17:31:45
 
Hi Hipfan and Will,

Most tube rectifiers have the same B8A - Octal 8 Pin base.

http://www.r-type.org/static/baseb8a.htm

For those rectifiers with all 8 pins, not every pin is "active" and in actual electrical use.
The tube manufacturers came out with 4 pins and 5 pins etc as a cost-cutting measure.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #83 - 08/17/12 at 22:19:10
 
Thanks for filling this in. I figured maybe the extra pins were for added stability or something.....
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #84 - 08/24/12 at 15:57:48
 
my opinion so far;  
tesla nos and new 6922 last place.. slightly dull but tolerable
electro harmonix 6922 (shipped w)..clear concise, little thinner than the
phillips ECG6922 .. great tubes lots of color and full sound
telefunken 7dj8's nos.. my fav. tight, clear, deep sound...very German precise and on point... very detailed. of course they were also the most expensive
this is fun
Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #85 - 08/27/12 at 22:27:26
 
I think it is fun too. Tuning the system to our personal pleasure!

One thing I have noticed is that there are so many years and models of tubes from a given company, that though they do seem to tend toward general characteristic qualities, they are quite variable within that. For example, I have a pair of early 60s Telsa 6922 that sound really good to me, open and detailed but also rich, and some from the 70s I really can't get excited about.

And Phillips tubes for example, they may be made at different factories in different countries. Then there are Zaerix that are made by the big companies for Zaerix, sometimes England, Holland, Russia....whatever.

Since you like the Telefunken 7DJ8, I suspect you will like other 7DJ8s too. I think they really work well with the Torii. I must have 7 or 8 pair (including some Telefunkens) and I like them all...real, textural, and big without being too pushy. The Telefunkens are probably the most edge defined, or precise as you put it...perhaps a bit too much so for me depending on what tubes they are with. But now, with some big, warm and articulate 60s Sylvania 5U4GBs, and some warmish Amperex OA3s, they sound very good.  All 7DJ8s I have excel at that indescribable "in the room" quality.


Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/27/12 at 22:29:45 by will »  

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
neilwill
Verified Member
**




Posts: 24
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #86 - 09/06/12 at 12:40:36
 
Hi I'm new to the forum and in need of some help.  I've had my Torii for a few months now.  I recently tried the RCA 5U4GB tall bottle as talked about on this thread.  The thing is the base of the tube is too wide and the screws that hold the socket in place on the amp prevent it from completely seating and so the tubes don come on.  Has anyone had this issue and what can be done about it?  Thanks.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MkIII w/jupiter caps, Tonian Classic 8.1 S speakers (98db, 16 ohm), BMC Audio BDCD 1.1 cd player, Synergistic Research Powercell 6 SE, Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator IC, Synergistic Research T2 SE & T3 SE power cords, Auditorium 23 speaker cable
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #87 - 09/06/12 at 14:03:17
 
I think the easiest solution would be to gently notch out the plastic edges of the base by the screws. This had been done (not by me) on a rectifier in my Select amp years ago.Allowed the tube to seat and connect.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #88 - 09/06/12 at 15:38:42
 
I think most of my rectifiers rest on the screws to various degrees and work...including the stock Rubys. Since the contacts in the sockets start working pretty soon after you start the pins into the socket (I just pulled the Sylvania 5U4GB I am using out so you could see a good 1/8-3/16" of the pins from the side, and they worked) I am wondering if your issue is something else.

Not knowing how familiar you are with tubes....I guess the RCAs have the socket guides intact? Do the soldered pin tips look smooth and without cracks? Have you cleaned the pins? A couple thoughts.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
tgarden
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 439
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #89 - 09/06/12 at 16:55:57
 
I noticed the same issue with the Torii III I purchased last year.  

The NOS 1940's and 50's RCA & Tungsol 5U4G's I  use, rested on top of the two screws holding the tube sockets to the top of the amp.

It's an easy fix using a Dremel tool or round file to make two small notches in the base of the tubes.  Just take your time.

I did this 3500 hours ago, and it's worked out fine.  The tubes now contact the tube sockets completely.

Mike in Seattle area
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 09/06/12 at 17:40:52 by tgarden »  
  IP Logged
neilwill
Verified Member
**




Posts: 24
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #90 - 09/06/12 at 21:27:17
 
Thanks guys for the suggestions.  I got the tubes from a reputable dealer (tc tubes)  I'll check to see if there maybe a problem with the tubes because I don't know if it should be able to come on 98% seated.  If the tubes are fine, I may have to shave the edges.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MkIII w/jupiter caps, Tonian Classic 8.1 S speakers (98db, 16 ohm), BMC Audio BDCD 1.1 cd player, Synergistic Research Powercell 6 SE, Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator IC, Synergistic Research T2 SE & T3 SE power cords, Auditorium 23 speaker cable
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #91 - 09/06/12 at 23:27:47
 
Yeah I concur with Will. I'm using some nos rca and although they rest on the screws the sound is complete.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #92 - 10/27/12 at 16:24:07
 
As a result of having to change my el34's from jj's to some cryo'd mullards i wasn't crazy how my telefunken 7dj8's sounded with them. Too bright and up front.  Changed to a pair of national's 7dj8's also cryo'd and the sound is off the charts...always a good thing to have tubes to roll.  I'm becoming fascinated with tube interaction, the synergy or lack of between them.  This is the first time I've had cyro'd tubes in the power and input positions and wonder how much it helps cuz it sounds so damn good.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #93 - 10/27/12 at 17:31:56
 
I have only checked one tube...JJ6CA7 cryo'd and not, and the cryo did help ...more open clarity, more space, more black, better dynamics...the lot. But then I believe Ron at Cryoset asks for tubes from JJ at a certain high standard...this probably helps too...I am guessing that those Mullards with the Nationals synergy for you is just good, and they would sound good not cryo'd. But with cryo, you are pulling more from the tubes than without. When I was testing the JJs, after getting used to non-cryo'd, which sounded quite good, and switching to the Cryo...if I recall correctly, the difference was pretty notable, and to my tastes better, but may not be better to all...the non-cryo tubes were softer and fuzzier by a little, perhaps more tolerant...less defined.

I agree it is good to have tubes to roll. I never got the Telefunken 7DJ8s I have to really click in except with a fair bit of work at tube synergy. I find them a little demanding in this way.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #94 - 10/27/12 at 17:34:45
 
PS: those JJs...both sets had lots of hours on them before I compared. Can't recall how many, but I remember thinking the JJ6CA7 need 200-250 to come in.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 12626
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #95 - 10/27/12 at 18:08:28
 
I'll have to try the cryo'd JJs next time. Really a fan of these 6CA7s. I ahve one more pair in reserve that probably won't go into one of my Toriis for six months or so.

I do find cryo'd tubes to exhibit benefits, it's as if their best qualities are a bit more dialed in. I've used input tubes, rectifier and power tubes in cryo'd form.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,ZTPRE,Torii MkIII,ZBIT,Taboo MkIV;PS Audio:DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade:Dbl Helix+,V2+V3;CambridgeAudio CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt,all Groovetracer upgrades,Exact2;VooDoo Cremona +Amati,Iso-Pods;MD90-T SE tuner,Oppo PM-1,Audeze LCD-2
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #96 - 11/03/12 at 02:55:01
 
i agree i think with the right tubes the telefunken 7dj8's would be benign.  i need to come to the realization that any tube needs  time... a lot of time.   patience is a virtue i have yet to attain.  I freakin love the cryo'd set of input (nationals 7dj8) and power tubes(mullard el34) with raytheon ob3a recs, stock oa3's with nos rca's.  found something special that i'm gonna try to stick with...ha ha
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #97 - 11/03/12 at 03:06:40
 
JD,

Sounds like a very good very good place to hang. I have the rest of the tubes you use, so can imagine that your sound is really good, but I have never gone there on the Mullard EL34...so I wonder if you would give us your impressions of the cryo'd Mullards compared to the JJ6CA7???
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 428
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #98 - 11/03/12 at 16:36:57
 
Will,

Had no inclination of taking out the jj6ca7's until I had a volume issue in one channel(that Lon helped me fix), loved the sound.  When I had first tried out the cryo'd mullards a couple months ago they seemed way too harsh for me with my telefunken 7dj8's and took them out after a few hours (10).  With no other option but my mullards i put them in and they still seemed a little harsh.  I switched to the national's and the sound was tremendous out of the gate, only thing i adjusted on the torii was the treble...now 50+ hours in it's sensational.  I just listened to the new Iris DeMent, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison cd's first with another set of jj 6ca7's and then with my mullards.  I can unequivocally say that it's the Mullards hands down.  The instruments are clearer, from the vibration of the cymbals to the guitar riffs, a much fuller and complete sound.  I can feel the emotion in the artists voice, the painful truth in Iris, the gruffness of Bob and the beautiful arrangements of Van's tunes.Everything seems to float yet stay tethered  to the original representation meant by the artist...as Steve said in his description of the Torii you don't listen to the music you float in it...I am truly getting that!
I think the cryo'd synergy between the two really helps as well.
just my two cents.

jd
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1815
Re: New Torii owner - help with tube rolling.
Reply #99 - 11/03/12 at 20:41:23
 
Thanks JD. Synergy between tubes, or lack there of, is an amazing thing. The JJs in my room do tend to do pretty well with upfront, more defined midrange inputs like the Telefunken 7DJ8. And the Nationals do seem to have good balance, and good textural warmth with nice detail balance too. So what you are hearing makes sense to me. Sounds like a really engaging sound! Isn't it awesome....Thanks for the thoughts on the Mullards with the Nationals.
Back to top
 
 

PSA P5/modified Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/more; MacMini/Audirvana>Jitterbug/Regen> modified Gustard x20pro DAC; DIY + Pi Audio PCs; DIY ICs + USB; Decware-Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, HR1-all modified; DIY Speaker Cables; feet-Madscientist, SynRes, Archie's, isocup
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print