Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
09/30/14 at 19:16:06


Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
Decware Torii Mk III distortion (Read 9952 times)
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Decware Torii Mk III distortion
02/10/12 at 16:24:43
 
I just received a used Torii Mk III. I'm still on the list for a new one with the V-Caps and stepped volume control. But being ampless I was able to procure a Torii from a good guy who had issues with his house electricity and 101db efficient speakers.

Now I have music. Unfortunately along with what appears to be spectacular sound is also a puzzling distortion, especially noted in the lower midband. When I put my ear close to the speaker it sounds as though the sound is being played underwater. It sounds this way on both channels. I rolled various tubes but other than changing the tonality, the distortion remains.

I played the Torii through my Allnic preamp as well. But regardless, pre or no pre the distortion remains. I tried different cables and out of desperation, last night i inserted a pair of Def Techs 8060's, removing the Tyler Decade's out of the picture. The Def Techs were unlistenable.

Torii has no hum, dead silent and is being fed from a dedicated 20amp circuit, Oyaide outlet and carbon fiber cover.

I know there's brilliance behind the Torii, we can hear it. We've spent a few evening enjoying music but would often cringe, usually with male vocals and noted as well that there seems to be a lack of clarity in general. Bass especially is although far fuller and deeper than my Pass X350.5 it's somewhat of a mess.

I'm hopeful to bring the Torii to another home/system but all I'd be eliminating at this point is the house and its associated AC.

Any ideas?
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #1 - 02/10/12 at 16:35:05
 
Interesting. Could it be that there is energy in a frequency range that is energizing your speakers in a way previous amps haven't? Possibly revealing a speaker defect or distortion? (This happened to me once in the past).

Seems to me that may be unlikely but it might be a possibility? Have you any other speakers to try?

Congratulations on the Torii purchase, and having one on the way (slowly)!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/10/12 at 17:52:46 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #2 - 02/10/12 at 17:38:46
 
Michael, Have you rolled different tubes types on the inputs and power tubes in particular? What tubes are you using?

I get distortion with 6N1Ps but not with 6DJ8, 6922, 7DJ8s. I have rolled all the tube sets and determining that the 6N1P is the culprit. I can't recall exactly, but I think I must have used the 6N1P when the amp was brand new for a little while with no issues. But now somehow the 6N1P must be overloading the power tubes?
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #3 - 02/10/12 at 18:53:35
 
Thanks for the responses. I tried my set of Def Tech speakers with same results.

In so far as tube rolling, even though I've been doing performance audio - forever - this is my first tube amp, so I'm a newbie of sorts. I have a generous amount of tubes to try from the previous owner and might have a tube other than the 6N1P to try, but I'm not sure. That's a great starting point though!

These are some of the tubes I have at my disposal.

RCA 5u4g rectifiers
RCA OA3's
RCA OC2's,
Amperex 6922's,
6ca7's
russian el34's

Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #4 - 02/10/12 at 19:30:53
 
Nice tubes. The RCA Voltage Regs OA3, and OC2 are probably pretty invincible. Likely the same with the RCA 5U4Gs. For starters, how about rolling the 6922s into the inputs, replacing the 6N1P and see what happens. If there is still distortion, maybe leave the 6922s and everything else as is, and try changing out the 6AC7 or EL34s for the other quad.

If the RCAs you listed are extras, and the above does not work, you could continue rolling one tube type at a time, and this would rule in or out tubes as part or all of the issue.

Just in case you have not had a chance to figure all the tubes out yet:

6N1P, 6922, 6DJ8, 7DJ8 all work in the input socket (outside fronts), with different characters by type and also by vintage and make within a type.

The RCA 5U4G can go where the Ruby 5U4Gs are, or if something else is in there, they are the tubes toward the center from the back power tubes. There are several other rectifiers that work here. 5U4GB, 5AR4 (GZ34), 5Y3GT... each type and individual within a type having particular character.
The OA3s are just inside the 5U4Gs and can be subbed with OB3, OC3, OD3, again all different tonal tendencies, and varied also by ST (coke bottle) or Straight bottle.
The OC2s, the tall narrow tubes in the middle front can be subbed with OB2. If stock Raytheon's are in there, you will find the RCA a little different tonally.
JJ or Shuguang 6AC7 and EL 34 are interchangeable.

Good Luck. I hope it is a tube and not the amp!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/10/12 at 20:16:35 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #5 - 02/10/12 at 21:41:16
 
Thanks will. I greatly appreciate your help.

We are so anxious to hear what this amp is capable of. I just want to get on with the sound of music!

I'll roll some of those tubes when I get home.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #6 - 02/10/12 at 21:50:38
 
You're welcome. I hope it solves your problem. To me, after getting my system/room tuned, this amp is so good it is sort of unbelievable.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #7 - 02/10/12 at 22:14:34
 
I agree. This amp will show you everything. . . which is great, and can also be expensive as you'll be tempted to upgrade every aspect of your system. . . Wink
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #8 - 02/10/12 at 22:20:05
 
I'm assembling a pair of GR-Research Super V's. My current reference are the Tyler Decade D1's which didn't sing well with the Pass. The Super V's are a 97db efficient free air speaker. I'm excited to get these built. The panels are painted with automotive color, at a body shop, and the rest I've dome myself.

I'm hopeful to get the Torii dialed in before inserting the Super V's. Should be a good "sound off".
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #9 - 02/11/12 at 02:11:29
 
Michael-

Nice choice with the Super V's.  I'm familiar with those and the Venuette, which I've considered building myself.  Danny has a knack for great sounding passive networks too, although they're power suckers.

Only think I would recommend is to have GR inspect, test, and pair match the P-audio drivers.  P-audio has been known to produce a few lemons.

Did you ever figure out the issue with the used Torii?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/11/12 at 02:31:18 by ski bum »  
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #10 - 02/11/12 at 04:11:48
 
Changed a few tubes, the 6N1p's but no help. Don't know where to go from here other than a direct comparison with another Torii owner. Cry
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #11 - 02/11/12 at 12:23:55
 
In my opinion, the next logical step would be to call Steve. . . .
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #12 - 02/11/12 at 15:49:55
 
I agree. If all the tube sets have been ruled out, as well as source and connections, then calling Steve will set solutions in motion. If it is the Torii causing the distortion, something is definitely wrong.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Casey
Verified Member
**




Posts: 3
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #13 - 02/11/12 at 19:28:09
 
Michael

I am having this exact same problem with a used SE84zs (is only about 500 hours used and has vcaps).  No problem for previous owner but in my system I get this low mid / high bass distortion.  Have tried three different speakers, and three different sources but still there.  The new Kate Bush - 50 words for snow - just drove me crazy.  Yet a little Rickie Lee was just pure magic - can really see the potential of this amp.

Have swapped output tubes with no change.  Have tried tube dampers no change.  Have tried a preamp no change. So have ordered a replacement rectifier and input tube.  I also have written to Decware with no reply so they may be scratching their heads as well.  

Will watch for your solution.

David
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Rivieraranch
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1274
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #14 - 02/11/12 at 19:51:15
 
Your experiences demonstrate the value of having the seller send the piece back to DECWARE for a look-see and renewal of the factory warranty. It is well worth the small fee involved.
Back to top
 
 

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #15 - 02/11/12 at 21:24:08
 
Casey and Michael. Seems like tubes are a good track since both amps were recently shipped and tubes are more fragile. With Michaels it would seem odd that both channels are effected by bad tubes but stranger things could happen. I had a new quad of JJ 6CA7s and one tube went into distorting after 100 hours or so. Got a replacement quad, and the same thing happened...after breaking in 100-120 only one tube of the quad started to distort. I finally ended up with 6, the good three from each quad, just in case another went. Several hundred hours later all is well.

Good Luck!
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #16 - 02/12/12 at 16:17:35
 
This is a tough one. I cannot believe it's the tubes. Last night I experimented with the tone controls. I largely eliminated the distortion by turning the bass control all the way down. It sounds wonderful. As long as I keep the volume reasonable and the bass control down, we're good.

Interesting. So the Pass amp with 350 WPC wouldn't do bass on my Decades. The 26 WPC Torii does more bass with the bass control in the "off" position. Does it do enough bass? Is there a good balance? I need to play some bass heavy music like, Shiny Toy Guns or B-Tribe. I did note astoundingly so, that when playing B-Tribe Suave Suave, the 2nd cut has subterranean bass I hadn't heard since I had my line arrays. The Torii hit those notes!!  :o

The Decades have 7 drivers each but none bigger than ~6 inches. I wonder if there isn't some strange interaction going on with the Decades? Hooking up the Def Techs? Forget about it. The Def Tech's played well above their price point hooked up the Pass and Allnic combo. Duh. But through the Torii, they sounded like total crap. Weird too because they have self powered subs. Not sure what the efficiency is though.

Another test i tried against all better judgement was to run it through my PS Audio Power Plant Premier, an AC regenerator of sorts. It played well! I got a good, not great central image, no worse than through a dedicated outlet. I may return to that for further ABing.

I have a Torii on order. We decided to buy the second Torii. It's not like I can afford it! My rational though is that I'll get to compare Torii against Torii, rather than shipping my 2nd owner bought amp to Decware. I don't know how they would feel about that. The Pass folks are amazing about fixing there broken products regardless of who owns them. Same with Nuforce. And, I'm just not sure if this amp is broken, it just acts, ah, weird.

The Torii plays well with the Allnic. Another pre for you Torii owners to consider.

Now I'm even more anxious to get the Super V's built. Gotta finish those cross-overs. Thanks for all your feedback  :)
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #17 - 02/12/12 at 16:32:59
 
Michael, I was not sure it would be the tubes either, that didn't sound like a "tube problem" especially through both channels. I think that you're probably on to something about the speaker interaction with the amp and the changes with the bass control. I'm not sure that with the bass knobs all one way that is "off," possibly better termed "tightest?"--the bass knobs work in a complicated manner that I'm not sure I totally understand partly because my Torii doesn't have them, I bought mine before they were developed (damnit) and so I have no experience with them. I still think a call to Steve is in order, and I'm pretty sure from reading the forum that Steve has no compunction with working on amps previously owned by another, I think at this point Steve's biggest problem is . . . time management. He is in the enviable position of having a lot of work to do.

You'll be in a position to compare a seasoned amp without VCAPS to your incoming amp. Some fun ahead there I think.

Anyway, I'm interested in your evolving impressions and the resolution of this distortion issue, and what Steve might say about it. Keep us posted!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 16:34:01 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #18 - 02/12/12 at 16:40:23
 
Thanks Lon, will do. It is an interesting journey. I'll call Steve on Monday and report back.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #19 - 02/12/12 at 16:49:19
 
Michael, please do believe it. It could very easily be tubes. They are the primary sound makers for the amp. It could be internals too, but the sound you describe happened with 6N1Ps in my amp, AND with bad 6CA7s. Low mid/bass overload/breakup.

The bass knobs are not like traditional bass knobs. Not being a tech head, it is a little vague to me, but I believe it is something like this: the bass knobs effect the Torii's interactive power with your bass drivers, the power responding in milliseconds to impedance shifts. This is apparently a key aspect of the Torii having such amazingly articulate and powerful bass. It is working directly with your drivers. In sound, it makes the bass tighter to the left, or more relaxed/looser/fuller sounding to the right. There is no right setting for this, but it is a great feature for tuning to room, system and tastes.

This made me think of something else though. Do you know which impedance choices your amp was set up for? You can get it built 8/16, or 4/8. The switches on the back outside the power switches change it from one to the other. Have you played with these yet. I think back/away from you is the higher impedance setting, and toward the front is lower. I suppose that if you have sensitive 8 ohm speakers... or 16 ohm speakers, and you have your amp set to be 4 ohm....hmmm.

Glad you are getting some good sound anyway!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 16:33:34 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #20 - 02/12/12 at 16:52:19
 
Sorry, crossed in the air waves with Lon and you here.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 16:52:44 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #21 - 02/12/12 at 17:15:27
 
Good point about the impedance switching will. I'd consider playing with those Michael, and inquiring with Steve about them (he may be able to tell by the serial number how the amp was st up).
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #22 - 02/12/12 at 23:10:57
 
Bear with me guys, I'm scratching my head here trying to describe what I've done which was half-assed desperation. When swapping around tubes one of the 6N1p's died. I don't know why but I had a dead channel and no light on what I think was a 6H1N-EB (OTK7). I replaced that 1 tube on left channel to a 6N1P-EB (9204) Sovtek. Correct, I don't have matching tubes because I was, at that point trying to get sound.

So now I'm looking at the Torii manual and it doesn't call for any type of 6H1N-EB. The gentleman I bought this from was highly knowledgeable about tube gear and tubes in general, thus the full compliment of tubes he'd sent me. But where did I get the idea of the 6H1N-EB? I think it was marked in a 6N1P box but don't remember.

Will, what tubes should I replace that would effect this distortion? I've played with the EL34s using the Treasures and the Mesa Boogies. Don't recall though that the original set had an issue as when first set up, it all sounded wrong.

FYI I have a quad set of RCA OC2's and a quad set of TAD EL34B-STR's along with the Shuguang Treasures and the EL34 Mesa Boogies. Others too!
Thanks again!
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #23 - 02/12/12 at 23:19:52
 
That Sovtek is a compatible tube. You can also use 6922, 6DJ8, 6BQ7A, and I think 7DJ8 and 7308 I believe.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 23:20:12 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #24 - 02/12/12 at 23:46:20
 
Sounds like you are in good shape for tubes. The dead channel could potentially happen from dirty input sockets or misaligned or dirty tube pins if it is bad enough to not make connection. This is an interesting thing to look at. Do you have some deoxit or deoxit gold, or some similar cleaning/protection stuff. If so you could put it on the pins and let is sit a while, and then wipe off the pins. You could then put some on the pins, thin, and carefully work them in and out of the sockets several times, cleaning the socket a bit, wipe it off and try the tube again.

It seems the 6H1N-EB is a designation for a 6N1P. So you are good there. But different ones will sound different. Two brands/pairs of 6H1N-EB, and one marked OTK1 create distortion in my amp.

6922s and 6DJ8s and 7DJ8s don't set up distortion in mine.

Since it is easy to roll tubes, I would just be methodical about it looking for any weak link, one tube type at a time.

Did you try the 6922s you have in the input sockets?

If not, I would try those first. Remember, this is your first stage and the progression goes directly from these to the EL34s. So they impact the EL34s. This is why I suggest trying alternatives to the 6N1P first.

I don't really think it matters on the EL34s, my thought would just be to see if distortion happens changing whole quads out, one quad at a time. It is unlikely that you would have two tubes bad, one in each channel, but it is possible. And you can get a feel for the sound of each too.

If this does not do it, just for kicks, roll the Rectifiers.

I kind of doubt the OC2 is a bad link, but since you have spares, it just takes a minute to change them.

Did you try the impedance switches?

Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #25 - 02/12/12 at 23:48:52
 
Lon, I noted that you have the PS Audio Trio. I had the DAC, Bridge and Transport. Now I'm down to the phono stage and PPP. I wonder though, do you, or have you tried running your Decware amp through the PPP?

Going back to the standard 6N1P's until I get things straightened out.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #26 - 02/13/12 at 00:14:22
 
Michael, I don't have the Bridge in the PWD because I don't use computer audio and have no intention of starting to. I do use the Torii plugged into the Power Plant Premier, and I have to say I prefer it that way than plugged directly into the wall.

I've never been happier with a digital component than I am with the PWT and PWD. I plan on getting the upgrade when I can afford it.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 00:32:32 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #27 - 02/13/12 at 05:10:22
 
I've been a computer audio nerd from the beginning. The reality, as least my reality, I'd rather spin records. It's easier! I grew so tired wanting to here music only to reboot computer, screw with software, hardware, hell, I spent more evenings fixing my source unit than actually enjoying music. That being said, having my vinyl rig down for a lengthy 12 week cartridge repair (where did I here 12 week wait before?), I use my Oppo BDP95 attached to a hard drive through it's USB port and stream my FLAC file library.

What an evening. Changed the Torii's power tubes, the EL34 back to stock and put the Sovteks in the input power sockets. After listening to Jeff Beck "Cause we Ended as Lovers" off of Blow By Blow (at my wife's request), I blurted "I'm never going to listen to another solid state amplifier". My goodness. On to Chris Rea, Eric Clapton's 461 Ocean Blvd, Joni Mitchell's Court & Spark, Zero 7 with Sia (what you haven't the greatest female voice ever?), John Klemmer,s Touch, and ending with B-Tribe "5".
Shocked

Amazing articulation, tone, ambiance, dynamic range and a midrange I've been seeking for decades. The Tyler Decade D1's are sounding spectacular. Now being the discriminate audio junkies that we are, my wife is crazy, we booth note the lack of soundstage, that is, no real strong central image with the music largely constrained around the speakers. My wife notes a lack of air but I differ and suggested it's the added midrange warmth and not the dry sort of air we were once accustomed too.

So what of the distortion? I don't know now as it seemed that changing the tubes as Lon and others suggested turned the tables. I did up the bass controls a wee bit but still had plenty of low end energy without cranking it to a fuller weight.

It was just damn fun to listen to MUSIC  8-)
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Morganc
Senior Member
***




Posts: 66
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #28 - 02/13/12 at 05:26:57
 
Hi Michael,
    It sounds as if you had a challenging weekend!  Feel free to call me anytime or bring your amp to my place and I can help you sort it out.   My system is singing now after I just switched to the new EE Dac Plus and you will love it. We can also plug your amp in and I can easily help you sort out the problem tubes......
    I am free after work all week this week if you can come by.  
Cheers,
Morgan
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #29 - 02/13/12 at 12:42:12
 
will primarily suggested the tube changes. You could have had a bad pair of input tubes at first, I guess. Or it's possible that the amp had been sitting for a while unused and had to be broken in again. That could have been what surfaced as distortion. Regardless I'm so glad you are getting such great sound now.

I can definitely understand the ease and lovely sound of vinyl. I still think it's the best sound there is. If I could find all the music I want to hear locally on vinyl at the price of the cds I buy I would be listening to vinyl solely. But that's not ever been the case for me since cds started the jazz reissue programs that has fueled my listening for more than two decades now. Smiley I'm fully invested in all ways in cd. And happily.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 12:54:56 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #30 - 02/13/12 at 14:27:55
 
Morgan,

You would be my savior. But as I mentioned, it sang well last night. I still want to know the cause of the distortion. Best to perform and AB comparison.

I'll bring the Allnic.  :)
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #31 - 02/13/12 at 15:21:57
 
Michael, I think it was the bass adjustment control set at a spot that was not advantageous with your speakers.  As mentioned, it does not operate like a typical tone control that boosts or cuts the bass, rather it acts as some sort of damping control, from loose to tight, with the 'correct' setting dependant on the particular speaker it's hooked up to and how it sounds in your room to your ears.

How are the Super V's coming along?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #32 - 02/13/12 at 15:54:17
 
I'd like to talk with Steve regarding this bass control and how it may effect SQ on some speakers. But given an opportunity to AB compare with another Torii will tell all.

Super V's. The networks are built. The side panels are painted and need to be retrieved from the paint shop. I'm hopeful they did a good job! I need to talk with the designer regarding how these speakers are wired up. There's little to no information on the overall wiring of the 3 bass drivers and the single tweeter. In fact, come to think of it, I'm still missing the plate amps.  

Listening to the Decades now, through the Torii, I would have not bought this Super V speaker kit. On the other hand, I wouldn't have bought a 26 watt tube amp either.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #33 - 02/13/12 at 17:37:52
 
I'd love to eavesdrop on that conversation.  Maybe Steve will chip in on the thread so we can all benefit.  

I suspect that the particular speaker's mechanical compliance is a big factor on what the ideal bass control setting would be.  Also, if there are any passive crossover bits in there would have an effect.  I would expect something like a FRX2 or Hoyt Bedford full ranger to benefit from a different setting than, say your proposed P-Audio via passive network.  I would expect your Tylers (those look kick ass by the way...bet they sound awesome with the Torii...green with envy over here) to interact differently that the speakers the previous owner of the Torii was using, unless he had the Tylers too.  Could be that passive network bits disrupt damping, and so the full-left/off/whatever-it-is works best with the Tylers.

Seems to me that Steve has come up with something far more useful than a simple tone control, giving great flexibility and adaptability to a wide variety of speakers.  If it is indeed some sort of 'dial-a-Q', then every speaker would benefit from a spot somewhere on the Torii's range of adjustment based on it's underlying characteristics, unique to each different speaker.  I know of no other amps that have such a thing.  That's just flat out pretty cool, isn't it?      
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 18:17:20 by ski bum »  
  IP Logged
Morganc
Senior Member
***




Posts: 66
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #34 - 02/13/12 at 18:15:49
 
I agree that it sounds like the bass knob, but regardless still come and bring the Pre with the Torii Smiley
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #35 - 02/13/12 at 20:23:20
 
Unless it is the bass knob adjustment in concert with bad impedance matching between the amp and speakers, this would surprise me. The amp was designed using a wide range of speakers with the objective of the bass knob being an adjustment for sound taste preferences and room difficulties as opposed to driving a speaker too hard or not. But it is conceivable! I look forward to your findings.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #36 - 02/15/12 at 16:40:43
 
Called Decware and left a message for Steve. I have not received a call back so I'm still in the dark regarding this issue. I'm hopeful to see Morgan this week still. Would love to hear his rig and the Decware with the Super V's. Also, to clear the mystery of the health of my Torii. Should be interesting too, to here how the Allnic plays in his system.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #37 - 02/23/12 at 04:02:50
 
Following my latest thread "Wow, what happened", I think I found the problem. A failing and finally failed transformer. The Torii is on it's way back to Steve for a rebuild.

It's very quiet around here...
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #38 - 02/23/12 at 04:28:02
 
Glad you got that sorted. It is best to get a thorough look over from Steve with used gear anyway and may be he will reinstate the warranty??

Good Luck and sorry for the quiet!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/23/12 at 04:28:46 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #39 - 02/23/12 at 13:36:28
 
The mystery solved! I'm sure Steve will set you right.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #40 - 02/17/13 at 18:12:17
 
I have a torii III V-cap, stepped atten, stock tubes. Mac mini, linear PS, Latest Audirvana Plus, Prism Firewire Dac, Torii II, Ref 3A GV's which are 90 db at 1 watt, linear 5 ohm impedence, terrible distortion midrange and  bass. I can't get peaks much over 90 db in my room .  It sounds as if the amp were clipping. Same result when feed the dac with analog from an Oppo, firewire from the mm, or Spdif from an Oppo. The Ref 3 A's do not like feedback but I could sure use some.  Please help, need a place to start. Thank you
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #41 - 02/17/13 at 19:40:47
 
BTW, I thought it might have been my setting in my Dac,clock, Audirvanna, mac settings, just put back my Sim Moon W-5 back in, sounds brand new. Could it be the Decware??? I've done countless combo's on the Torii.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #42 - 02/17/13 at 21:19:26
 
I'm not sure exactly what is going on. I assume this is happening with both channels?

Is it possible you have 6N2P tubes at the input? The only time I had distortion and hum from the Torii Mk III was when using those as inputs instead of 6N21P (or 6922 types, I don't like those in the Torii).
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #43 - 02/18/13 at 15:30:30
 
Hi Lon, Thanks for your interest.  Both channels are affected, 6N1p-EV (not 2P) are in the correct sockets. On the tube it reads 6H17-EB, the box its from reads 6N1p-EV. When I read MichaelHiFi from one year ago when he states "bass is a mess", I think these would be my words exactly. Everything, midrange, very dark sounding, Treble all the way clockwise from the get go, no issues there but not the air of the SS amp, no hum, dead silent. I know the V-caps have a ways to go. Turning bass control full clockwise, more cone movement (using filtered pink noise 400 hz and down)but does not change the overall character of the issues. My audiocontrol RTA shows a at least a 3 db spike over the SS amp at 50-60 hz.  My ignorant conclusions, 1. Am I clipping the amp? Can't get much over 90 db (largish  room 16x27x12, sit 10 feet from speaker), without becoming unlistenable, 2. 2 bad tubes?, or 2 wrong tubes, 3. transformer. 4. Lastly, this is the character of the amp and its a mismatch for the GV's, maybe due to the fact it was voiced on very efficient speakers that sometimes are in need of bass. Could power going to the bass be sucking the life out of the amp allowing it to clip.?These GV's are EZ speakers to drive. BTW, 4 ohm setting, everything collapses relative to the 8 setting. What does a failing transformer sound like?  
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #44 - 02/18/13 at 15:51:21
 
Dave, something does not seem right in this. I have one of the first Mk IIIs made and I don't have the bass controls. I always have my treble reduced, partly room/house build, but it's an amp that from the git go had lots of brightness available.

I think it's unlikely that it's tubes. . . but I don't know for sure. If it were a transformer it would have to be at least two of them and that doesn't seem that likely to me.

Something is not right.

To be honest, I think a call to Steve and probably a trip back to the mother ship is the best next step. . . .
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #45 - 02/18/13 at 15:56:10
 
Thanks Lon, I'm on board with that.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2416
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #46 - 02/18/13 at 20:25:24
 

Quote:
I have a torii III V-cap, stepped atten, stock tubes. Mac mini, linear PS, Latest Audirvana Plus, Prism Firewire Dac, Torii II, Ref 3A GV's which are 90 db at 1 watt, linear 5 ohm impedence, terrible distortion midrange and  bass. I can't get peaks much over 90 db in my room .  It sounds as if the amp were clipping. Same result when feed the dac with analog from an Oppo, firewire from the mm, or Spdif from an Oppo. The Ref 3 A's do not like feedback but I could sure use some.  Please help, need a place to start. Thank you


Quote:
Hi Lon, Thanks for your interest.  Both channels are affected, 6N1p-EV (not 2P) are in the correct sockets. On the tube it reads 6H17-EB, the box its from reads 6N1p-EV.  



if the tube reads 6h17-eB then it's the wrong tube(s) placed into the right box.


It seems the 6N1P in a Zen TORII MKII or MKIII falls right on the edge of a window of operation where depending on how the tube tests, it could actually fall outside that window causing premature distortion.  The solution is to use 6922's, or at least avoid using 6N1P's in this amp.  In recent testing we saw this in action where a pair of 6N1P's causes the amplifier to put out less than 5 watts.  What actually happens is that the input tube itself is distorting and of course the amplifier just follows along.


USE 6922 input tubes in the Zen TORII amplifiers.

Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #47 - 02/18/13 at 23:53:33
 
I can't say if my MkIII has always done this or not because i started with 6DJ8 and 6922s, and Steve and I have talked about it...but 6N1P definitely clip in my Torii...I believe one of that first pile of seven we saw on the website for a while when the new bass knobs were being introduced...... One of my tube sellers graciously sent me a variety of 6N1P to try, cryo'd and not, and none make it into my favored listening window without breaking up. This explains it.
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Rivieraranch
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1274
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #48 - 02/19/13 at 00:04:27
 
That's funny because the new ZENSE84CKC is too much for the 6922; DECWARE cautions to use a 6N1P in there.

Now the 6N1P-EV is too much for the mighty TORII MK III to handle.

I suppose I will have to dig into the tube drawer for some 6922's.
Back to top
 
 

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
  IP Logged
C.E.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 20
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #49 - 02/19/13 at 00:19:19
 
I got my hands on a "stash" of 6N1P's a couple of years ago after I decided on that particular tube. 1960's from the original Reflektor factory- I think. Never had a clipping problem....

What's weird is that at first I thought that your clipping was probably related to speaker sensitivity (or lack of)...then the comments about the lack of treble...hmmmmm. My treble is backed off considerably.

I tried the 6922's and they just sounded "thin" to me...but that's what makes this amplifier so wonderful.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini (Amarra)>DIY (TDA 1541A, Ian FIFO) USB Dac (Tube Output)>Torii III(V-Caps, Attenuator)>Zen Styx>C3-L Monitors/Model H Sub (plate amp)
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1210
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #50 - 02/19/13 at 00:41:10
 
Now THAT depends entirely on the 6922...I am running some 60s Amperex SQ pulls right now, and they are really sweet. 6922 do tend to be tighter in general though, more neutral, stronger...being the more "accurate" of the 6 types, and tending more toward a solid state sort of "feel"...but there are the very nice sounding ones to be sure. If you want more sense of harmonics and a less tight sound, the 6DJ8 and 7DJ8s will help there, the nicer NOS ones fitting somewhere between the 6922 and 6N1P (actually referred to as 6DJ8 type). The output of all these tubes is notably higher than the 6N1P as well, and it may be you will prefer different Rectifiers or VRs to balance and different treble bass settings (I realize I use these all the time for fine-tuning tube sets and don't know how I did without it!).....but being used to the 6N1P in your Torii, you don't have the issue anyway.

Wink
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-7, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
C.E.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 20
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #51 - 02/19/13 at 00:48:53
 
OK....let's just say I MAY audition a different tube. What's your choice for the smoothest 6922 NOS that's not going to break the bank?...

Thanks Will.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini (Amarra)>DIY (TDA 1541A, Ian FIFO) USB Dac (Tube Output)>Torii III(V-Caps, Attenuator)>Zen Styx>C3-L Monitors/Model H Sub (plate amp)
  IP Logged
orangecrush
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 194
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #52 - 02/19/13 at 01:06:36
 
I would like to hear Will answer that as well, just in case. But, so far my experience is same as you C.E.. No issues with the 61NP in my Torrii but I am using 16 ohm 100 dB speakers with 16 ohm taps on the Torii. My treble is turned  down as well. About 11:00 o'clock.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/19/13 at 01:15:12 by orangecrush »  
  IP Logged
C.E.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 20
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #53 - 02/19/13 at 01:08:50
 
I think my amp has 4 and 8 ohm taps.
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini (Amarra)>DIY (TDA 1541A, Ian FIFO) USB Dac (Tube Output)>Torii III(V-Caps, Attenuator)>Zen Styx>C3-L Monitors/Model H Sub (plate amp)
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #54 - 02/19/13 at 03:00:57
 
Interesting. I have never liked 6922 tubes in the Torii; I've been using 6N1P since I have had the amp and have had no issues of distortion. I may be lucky. The supercryo'd from cryoset.com certainly work well.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/19/13 at 03:03:19 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #55 - 02/21/13 at 14:18:28
 
Wow, glad I opened a can of worms, I was ready to sell my amp.  The input tubes that I received appear to read(tuff, not clear) either 6H17 or 6H11 EB. However, the dates read 11-81, and 07-84, also "OTK1" on the tubes. Steve mentioned the 6299's that would be sent as replacement for 6N1p's are either Solvteks or EH's. Is it possible the quality of the input tube has little effect on the the sound? Maybe not as much as a tube "type" issue.  Seems unlikely but no experience here yet.  Not to break the bank, but I am waiting for a matched pair of Jan/Philips 6922's to test the waters and will chime in again. If anyone would suggest a 6922 with open, live sound I would appreciate it.   Hope this won't start me rolling off the deep end. Pun intended.    
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #56 - 02/25/13 at 20:31:58
 
Interesting. Just reading this thread now. I recently purchased a new LP and the amp seemed to clip at volume. I thought it was just the recording. I just checked my input tubes and I think they are 6N1P, although it looks like 6H1n-EB stamped on the tube, but the box is labelled 6N1P. Looking for suggestions on a common 6922 replacement, that is on the warmer side.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #57 - 02/25/13 at 21:00:25
 
Yes, you have 6N1P, that on the tube is the Cyrillic equivalent.

I have no suggestions for 6922 as I prefer 6N1P and have never run into distortion issues.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 181
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #58 - 02/25/13 at 22:28:03
 
Hipfan,

my favorite 6922's have been nos mullard and ediswan in that order. national 7dj8's worked well and were less inexpensive. good info on the torii III forum

JD
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #59 - 02/25/13 at 22:32:25
 
Thanks JD. I will have a look there. I have never felt that my Torii MK3 had the crankability it should and now I "think" I know why.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
C.E.
Verified Member
**




Posts: 20
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #60 - 02/25/13 at 23:20:32
 
So....if I (in my tiny brain) understand the "gist" of what's going on here...some of the more recent 6N1P's may have had some output issues (not enough power or gain)?

I do understand that there's always some variance in tubes, the average published gain (u) is 33 for the 6N1P, 6922, and 6DJ8 correct?
Back to top
 
 

Mac Mini (Amarra)>DIY (TDA 1541A, Ian FIFO) USB Dac (Tube Output)>Torii III(V-Caps, Attenuator)>Zen Styx>C3-L Monitors/Model H Sub (plate amp)
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #61 - 02/26/13 at 00:09:34
 
Hi Hipfan,
After being completely puzzeled by the tubes in my 6N1P box, I did some looking around. It appears that the tube in the 6N1p box is the Russian equivalent. In Russian, the N's appear as an H's and the "P" appears as a "pie" sign П п. Possibly no "P" n the Russian alphabet. The EV in the Russian tube is "EB". When I used the 6N1p, at the 8 ohm setting, my system  sounded superior to the 4 ohm, but still distorted.  Replacing it with the 6922, my system now gives me goose bumps in the 4 ohm setting. Base tight, most of the "boom"  is gone and plays at much higher db levels that are completely satifactory, 3-D clarity and transparency to beat the band and there is still quite a ways to go as this amp opens up.  I tried a matched pair of Jan/Philips 6922 and for under $60 bucks, I have something I can learn from, they sound great. The 6922 does not have as high a heater current as the 61np and as Steve indicated earlier, "It seems the 6N1P in a Zen TORII MKII or MKIII falls right on the edge of a window of operation where depending on how the tube tests, it could actually fall outside that window causing premature distortion.  The solution is to use 6922's, or at least avoid using 6N1P's in this amp."  It worked for me.  
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Pale Rider
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1272
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #62 - 02/26/13 at 01:52:26
 
Dave, glad to hear the progress. What you describe is how this amp should sound.
Back to top
 
 

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #63 - 02/26/13 at 04:30:29
 
C.E. wrote on 02/25/13 at 23:20:32:
So....if I (in my tiny brain) understand the "gist" of what's going on here...some of the more recent 6N1P's may have had some output issues (not enough power or gain)?

I do understand that there's always some variance in tubes, the average published gain (u) is 33 for the 6N1P, 6922, and 6DJ8 correct?


It does appear that Steve is saying that some tubes distort especially with age or low values on testing. I've been lucky, I've always apparently received tubes that have good values and don't distort. The last few years I've been using the super-cryo'd from cryoset.com and I trust that tubes I receive from Ron there always have been tested, matched and are reliable; I've had great success with these tubes.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #64 - 02/26/13 at 04:31:51
 
Dave, WHEW, so glad you are now "in the clear." Smiley
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
DaveH
Verified Member
**




Posts: 15
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #65 - 02/26/13 at 13:16:56
 
Tuff being an outsider looking in.  Finally in. Lon, missed your post, you had it, the tubes are labeled using the Cyrillic alphabet. Good info. Could, would someone comment on the significance of a 6N1P drawing more heater current than a 6299(other than the circuit being able to deliver it) as it may relate to the sound. Supposedly, these azbuka tubes have great linearity and longevity.  Can't give up on them, as said prior, maybe cryoset is the way to go.    
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, linear ps, Audirvana +, Oppo 83 Rick Shultz mod, Prism Orpheus Dac, Synergistic tesla, Torii III stepped, V-caps, Ref 3A GV's.
  IP Logged
Hipfan
Senior Member
***




Posts: 65
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #66 - 02/27/13 at 22:18:46
 
OK, so I just picked up and installed a set of '63 vintage 6DJ8 Amperex Bugle Boys. It will take me a bit of time to evaluate how I like these, however the amp finally sounds like it's running on all 8 cylinders. It's amazing what a $35 set of tubes will do. MUCH better at volume and no distortion.
Back to top
 
 

Torii MK3, Icon Audio PS2, Rega P5, azur 640C V2, Klipsch Forte II (Crites), PS Audio Duet, MAC cabling
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7572
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #67 - 02/27/13 at 22:38:40
 
Awesome! Those tubes have a helluva reputation, my guess is you'll find a lot of good sound in them.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print