Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
11/22/14 at 13:16:13


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
Decware Torii Mk III distortion (Read 10665 times)
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1264
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #15 - 02/11/12 at 21:24:08
 
Casey and Michael. Seems like tubes are a good track since both amps were recently shipped and tubes are more fragile. With Michaels it would seem odd that both channels are effected by bad tubes but stranger things could happen. I had a new quad of JJ 6CA7s and one tube went into distorting after 100 hours or so. Got a replacement quad, and the same thing happened...after breaking in 100-120 only one tube of the quad started to distort. I finally ended up with 6, the good three from each quad, just in case another went. Several hundred hours later all is well.

Good Luck!
Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-6, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #16 - 02/12/12 at 16:17:35
 
This is a tough one. I cannot believe it's the tubes. Last night I experimented with the tone controls. I largely eliminated the distortion by turning the bass control all the way down. It sounds wonderful. As long as I keep the volume reasonable and the bass control down, we're good.

Interesting. So the Pass amp with 350 WPC wouldn't do bass on my Decades. The 26 WPC Torii does more bass with the bass control in the "off" position. Does it do enough bass? Is there a good balance? I need to play some bass heavy music like, Shiny Toy Guns or B-Tribe. I did note astoundingly so, that when playing B-Tribe Suave Suave, the 2nd cut has subterranean bass I hadn't heard since I had my line arrays. The Torii hit those notes!!  :o

The Decades have 7 drivers each but none bigger than ~6 inches. I wonder if there isn't some strange interaction going on with the Decades? Hooking up the Def Techs? Forget about it. The Def Tech's played well above their price point hooked up the Pass and Allnic combo. Duh. But through the Torii, they sounded like total crap. Weird too because they have self powered subs. Not sure what the efficiency is though.

Another test i tried against all better judgement was to run it through my PS Audio Power Plant Premier, an AC regenerator of sorts. It played well! I got a good, not great central image, no worse than through a dedicated outlet. I may return to that for further ABing.

I have a Torii on order. We decided to buy the second Torii. It's not like I can afford it! My rational though is that I'll get to compare Torii against Torii, rather than shipping my 2nd owner bought amp to Decware. I don't know how they would feel about that. The Pass folks are amazing about fixing there broken products regardless of who owns them. Same with Nuforce. And, I'm just not sure if this amp is broken, it just acts, ah, weird.

The Torii plays well with the Allnic. Another pre for you Torii owners to consider.

Now I'm even more anxious to get the Super V's built. Gotta finish those cross-overs. Thanks for all your feedback  :)
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7802
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #17 - 02/12/12 at 16:32:59
 
Michael, I was not sure it would be the tubes either, that didn't sound like a "tube problem" especially through both channels. I think that you're probably on to something about the speaker interaction with the amp and the changes with the bass control. I'm not sure that with the bass knobs all one way that is "off," possibly better termed "tightest?"--the bass knobs work in a complicated manner that I'm not sure I totally understand partly because my Torii doesn't have them, I bought mine before they were developed (damnit) and so I have no experience with them. I still think a call to Steve is in order, and I'm pretty sure from reading the forum that Steve has no compunction with working on amps previously owned by another, I think at this point Steve's biggest problem is . . . time management. He is in the enviable position of having a lot of work to do.

You'll be in a position to compare a seasoned amp without VCAPS to your incoming amp. Some fun ahead there I think.

Anyway, I'm interested in your evolving impressions and the resolution of this distortion issue, and what Steve might say about it. Keep us posted!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 16:34:01 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #18 - 02/12/12 at 16:40:23
 
Thanks Lon, will do. It is an interesting journey. I'll call Steve on Monday and report back.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1264
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #19 - 02/12/12 at 16:49:19
 
Michael, please do believe it. It could very easily be tubes. They are the primary sound makers for the amp. It could be internals too, but the sound you describe happened with 6N1Ps in my amp, AND with bad 6CA7s. Low mid/bass overload/breakup.

The bass knobs are not like traditional bass knobs. Not being a tech head, it is a little vague to me, but I believe it is something like this: the bass knobs effect the Torii's interactive power with your bass drivers, the power responding in milliseconds to impedance shifts. This is apparently a key aspect of the Torii having such amazingly articulate and powerful bass. It is working directly with your drivers. In sound, it makes the bass tighter to the left, or more relaxed/looser/fuller sounding to the right. There is no right setting for this, but it is a great feature for tuning to room, system and tastes.

This made me think of something else though. Do you know which impedance choices your amp was set up for? You can get it built 8/16, or 4/8. The switches on the back outside the power switches change it from one to the other. Have you played with these yet. I think back/away from you is the higher impedance setting, and toward the front is lower. I suppose that if you have sensitive 8 ohm speakers... or 16 ohm speakers, and you have your amp set to be 4 ohm....hmmm.

Glad you are getting some good sound anyway!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 16:33:34 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-6, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1264
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #20 - 02/12/12 at 16:52:19
 
Sorry, crossed in the air waves with Lon and you here.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 16:52:44 by will »  

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-6, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7802
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #21 - 02/12/12 at 17:15:27
 
Good point about the impedance switching will. I'd consider playing with those Michael, and inquiring with Steve about them (he may be able to tell by the serial number how the amp was st up).
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #22 - 02/12/12 at 23:10:57
 
Bear with me guys, I'm scratching my head here trying to describe what I've done which was half-assed desperation. When swapping around tubes one of the 6N1p's died. I don't know why but I had a dead channel and no light on what I think was a 6H1N-EB (OTK7). I replaced that 1 tube on left channel to a 6N1P-EB (9204) Sovtek. Correct, I don't have matching tubes because I was, at that point trying to get sound.

So now I'm looking at the Torii manual and it doesn't call for any type of 6H1N-EB. The gentleman I bought this from was highly knowledgeable about tube gear and tubes in general, thus the full compliment of tubes he'd sent me. But where did I get the idea of the 6H1N-EB? I think it was marked in a 6N1P box but don't remember.

Will, what tubes should I replace that would effect this distortion? I've played with the EL34s using the Treasures and the Mesa Boogies. Don't recall though that the original set had an issue as when first set up, it all sounded wrong.

FYI I have a quad set of RCA OC2's and a quad set of TAD EL34B-STR's along with the Shuguang Treasures and the EL34 Mesa Boogies. Others too!
Thanks again!
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7802
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #23 - 02/12/12 at 23:19:52
 
That Sovtek is a compatible tube. You can also use 6922, 6DJ8, 6BQ7A, and I think 7DJ8 and 7308 I believe.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/12/12 at 23:20:12 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1264
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #24 - 02/12/12 at 23:46:20
 
Sounds like you are in good shape for tubes. The dead channel could potentially happen from dirty input sockets or misaligned or dirty tube pins if it is bad enough to not make connection. This is an interesting thing to look at. Do you have some deoxit or deoxit gold, or some similar cleaning/protection stuff. If so you could put it on the pins and let is sit a while, and then wipe off the pins. You could then put some on the pins, thin, and carefully work them in and out of the sockets several times, cleaning the socket a bit, wipe it off and try the tube again.

It seems the 6H1N-EB is a designation for a 6N1P. So you are good there. But different ones will sound different. Two brands/pairs of 6H1N-EB, and one marked OTK1 create distortion in my amp.

6922s and 6DJ8s and 7DJ8s don't set up distortion in mine.

Since it is easy to roll tubes, I would just be methodical about it looking for any weak link, one tube type at a time.

Did you try the 6922s you have in the input sockets?

If not, I would try those first. Remember, this is your first stage and the progression goes directly from these to the EL34s. So they impact the EL34s. This is why I suggest trying alternatives to the 6N1P first.

I don't really think it matters on the EL34s, my thought would just be to see if distortion happens changing whole quads out, one quad at a time. It is unlikely that you would have two tubes bad, one in each channel, but it is possible. And you can get a feel for the sound of each too.

If this does not do it, just for kicks, roll the Rectifiers.

I kind of doubt the OC2 is a bad link, but since you have spares, it just takes a minute to change them.

Did you try the impedance switches?

Back to top
 
 

Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, CSP3, TORII MkIV, Morrow SP-6, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PSAudio P5 and Shunyata Defender, PI Audio and DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab isocups and tube dampers...
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #25 - 02/12/12 at 23:48:52
 
Lon, I noted that you have the PS Audio Trio. I had the DAC, Bridge and Transport. Now I'm down to the phono stage and PPP. I wonder though, do you, or have you tried running your Decware amp through the PPP?

Going back to the standard 6N1P's until I get things straightened out.
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7802
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #26 - 02/13/12 at 00:14:22
 
Michael, I don't have the Bridge in the PWD because I don't use computer audio and have no intention of starting to. I do use the Torii plugged into the Power Plant Premier, and I have to say I prefer it that way than plugged directly into the wall.

I've never been happier with a digital component than I am with the PWT and PWD. I plan on getting the upgrade when I can afford it.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 00:32:32 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
MichaelHiFi
Verified Member
**




Posts: 23
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #27 - 02/13/12 at 05:10:22
 
I've been a computer audio nerd from the beginning. The reality, as least my reality, I'd rather spin records. It's easier! I grew so tired wanting to here music only to reboot computer, screw with software, hardware, hell, I spent more evenings fixing my source unit than actually enjoying music. That being said, having my vinyl rig down for a lengthy 12 week cartridge repair (where did I here 12 week wait before?), I use my Oppo BDP95 attached to a hard drive through it's USB port and stream my FLAC file library.

What an evening. Changed the Torii's power tubes, the EL34 back to stock and put the Sovteks in the input power sockets. After listening to Jeff Beck "Cause we Ended as Lovers" off of Blow By Blow (at my wife's request), I blurted "I'm never going to listen to another solid state amplifier". My goodness. On to Chris Rea, Eric Clapton's 461 Ocean Blvd, Joni Mitchell's Court & Spark, Zero 7 with Sia (what you haven't the greatest female voice ever?), John Klemmer,s Touch, and ending with B-Tribe "5".
Shocked

Amazing articulation, tone, ambiance, dynamic range and a midrange I've been seeking for decades. The Tyler Decade D1's are sounding spectacular. Now being the discriminate audio junkies that we are, my wife is crazy, we booth note the lack of soundstage, that is, no real strong central image with the music largely constrained around the speakers. My wife notes a lack of air but I differ and suggested it's the added midrange warmth and not the dry sort of air we were once accustomed too.

So what of the distortion? I don't know now as it seemed that changing the tubes as Lon and others suggested turned the tables. I did up the bass controls a wee bit but still had plenty of low end energy without cranking it to a fuller weight.

It was just damn fun to listen to MUSIC  8-)
Back to top
 
 

Tyler Acoustic Decade D1's
Decware Torii Mk III
Allnic L3000 preamp
Oppo BDP95
VPI Scoutmaster
  IP Logged
Morganc
Senior Member
***




Posts: 70
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #28 - 02/13/12 at 05:26:57
 
Hi Michael,
    It sounds as if you had a challenging weekend!  Feel free to call me anytime or bring your amp to my place and I can help you sort it out.   My system is singing now after I just switched to the new EE Dac Plus and you will love it. We can also plug your amp in and I can easily help you sort out the problem tubes......
    I am free after work all week this week if you can come by.  
Cheers,
Morgan
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7802
Re: Decware Torii Mk III distortion
Reply #29 - 02/13/12 at 12:42:12
 
will primarily suggested the tube changes. You could have had a bad pair of input tubes at first, I guess. Or it's possible that the amp had been sitting for a while unused and had to be broken in again. That could have been what surfaced as distortion. Regardless I'm so glad you are getting such great sound now.

I can definitely understand the ease and lovely sound of vinyl. I still think it's the best sound there is. If I could find all the music I want to hear locally on vinyl at the price of the cds I buy I would be listening to vinyl solely. But that's not ever been the case for me since cds started the jazz reissue programs that has fueled my listening for more than two decades now. Smiley I'm fully invested in all ways in cd. And happily.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/13/12 at 12:54:56 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print