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6N1P distortion and low Torii volume??? (Read 6387 times)
will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #15 - 02/03/12 at 19:41:50
 
Thanks guys.

First, I am running DAC straight to Torii too. The USB is from computer to DAC. The USB output is maxed at the computer Audio out as is usual for USB out to DAC for transparency, bypassing internal processing. And I have a software player, Pure Music, that has a good dithered digital 'Pre' that some use, but I prefer the volume flat (no software volume processing). This does however give me a digital "pre."

I believe the Tranquility is about 2.2 volts, so not particularly low, but certainly lower than the two of you. The other source I tried is a modded Oppo, which I believe it about 2 volts out as well. The Oppo is going through the ZSTAGE so I can change the output voltage there, but have it set roughly at matched volume to the Tranquility, so presumably it is about 2.2 out.

Especially based on the output voltages you two are using, and that you can get loud playback with the 6N1P, I think my thing is very odd too. I don't have a Db meter, but I don't think I listen outrageously loud. With 6DJ8, 6922, or 7DJ8, I usually listen from about 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

I suppose the 6N1P needs roughly twice as much volume knob turn to get similar volume over the 7DJ8 could be tube design stuff, but that I can't get the lower volume tube into moderate listening levels is weird.

My explanation to Steve may not have been good enough, we were talking about several topics and I did not want to take too much time. And Lon your supposition that it is odd that my amp won't perform impressively with the tubes that ship with it is what has been on my mind too.

In light of this discussion, I just ran some tests. Using the 6N1P with a hot recording (CEU), PureMusic at 0dB (flat) through the Tranquility, oddly, I get notable distortion at about 9 o'clock, and maybe earlier, but it is so quiet I can hardly tell. Riding the PureMusic pre with the Torii volume, and keeping relatively the same loudness, the distortion remains the same with Pure way down, and the Torii way up. But I think it may get worse in the Torii 2-3 o'clock range.

Riding the volumes with the Oppo/ZSTAGE and Torii. The same things happen. So from this test, I am thinking I can say that with hot recordings, I am getting distortion with the 6N1P no matter what.

With a 7DJ8 and the Tranquility as output at 0 dB in Pure, a hot recording maxes around 12 o'clock and it is loud. Riding Pure and the Torii volumes, -13dB in Pure and about 3 o'clock is similar volume and perhaps a touch more distortion.

I wonder if there is something I am missing. Like maybe my volume pot is a little dirty, particularly in the 2-3 o'clock range or something? Or is there something else internal that is maxing out with the 6N1P but also causing the other tubes to perform less than optimally.

Any help is appreciated!!! Mr Deckart?



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« Last Edit: 02/03/12 at 19:50:45 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #16 - 02/03/12 at 19:55:03
 
Wow. It's confusing, and I think Steve would have the most educated response. . . . You may be on to something about the volume control.

See, this is how a 6N2P would act in my Torii, not a 6N1P which is confusing.
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« Last Edit: 02/03/12 at 21:24:38 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #17 - 02/22/12 at 21:22:24
 
OK...I have had a miraculous recovery! The only thing I know is different is that I went away to have surgery for four days, probably the first four days the amp has been off in many many months. Also, i got my repaired ZDAC and wired it in as the oppo dac, where I had the oppo direct through the ZSTAGE before.

I stuck in some 6N1Ps to see if the problem might have disappeared using the ZDAC/ZSTAGE as source. NO DISTORTION until very high levels!

Changed over to the Tranquility direct into the Toriii.......NO DISTORTION.

I messed around with VRs, Rectifiers and Power tubes.....no change.


WTF!@#$%^&*()_


I don't get it. Is it possible for an input resistor to be on the way out overloading the power tubes for a time and getting better, miraculously changing. Really. I did nothing, and after months of 6N1P distortion, it is gone....at least today.

So finally Lon I am exploring your favorite input tube.

BTW, which Cryo one is your fav? I have two. One in a funny little box without ends marked 6H1-NB and a label stuck on....CS Super Cryogenic Treatment. These tubes have OTK near the bottom of the glass. The other is labeled Anod 6N1P-EV Cryo 6922 E88CC 6DJ8. Both are from Ron at Cryoset.

I am listening to the Super Cryos now and they are big and fun so far.
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #18 - 02/22/12 at 21:38:03
 
Wow will. First off, glad you're back from surgery, hope you recover very quickly and all stays well. Secondly, no idea what is wrong that would cause your distortion in the first place, or to go away, and I hope it doesn't come back. Maybe the amp needed a rest! Glad you are getting to use the 6N1P now. I notice that Ron has had several different "super cryo" tubes available. The ones that I bought. . . I can't remember what factory he said they were from, Anod may be correct. They have no markings at all except a 2 in a diamond near the base, printed sideways.

I hope you enjoy exploring the tube type. I found that the "super cryo" I'm using really didn't come into its own for weeks (and weeks, really about a month). Now it seems invisible and shows me any other changes I make in tubes, isolation, and cables.
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« Last Edit: 02/22/12 at 21:52:37 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #19 - 02/22/12 at 22:03:28
 
Thanks for the good wishes, amp and body wise (hernia repair, well on the mend it seems). I am using the super cryo ones with OTK near the bottom of the glass followed by a sideways diamond that looks like it has a sideways 7, but it may be a 2. I did not like it with the 6CA7s, but with the Cryo'd tungsols, so far they are very listenable, even new, so I look forward to them burning in. I recall when I first started getting tubes fro Ron he found the russian made ones to take inordinate amounts of time to burn in and this has proven true for me. But right now Chet Baker and Paul Bley are sounding pretty damned sweet!

I would really like to know what changed to sort this distortion thing! And only with the 6N1Ps no less! Maybe I need to get one of those tube socket cleaner sets.
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« Last Edit: 02/22/12 at 22:15:17 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #20 - 02/22/12 at 22:36:53
 
We probably have the same tubes in use. I'll have to try my cryo'd Tungsols in the Mk III again. I've been using them a few months now in my Mk II in the bedroom system after they had been unused for over a year or more. I just never have liked them in the Mk III, but I may not have given them enough time to break in. They sound fine in the Mk II, but the room is so different there that everything is actually different in that system, hard to isolate whether it's the components or the configuration (far from ideal, speakers way too close to the walls, not able to be symmetrically placed, but with the balance control available with the CSP2, works out quite well. A much warmer presentation there, which is a nice listen while relaxing in the bedroom. My gal loves the sound, which is worth a lot of gold. Smiley

It is possible that socket cleaning might be a culprit. I almost think anything is possible with these systems! Wink I have a socket problem, it's not a cleaning one but I think a loose wiring one, going to have to send the Mk III back one of these days. But I don't want to part with it for repair and travel time! Not at all! Angry If I do I'm going to see if the bass knobs can be installed.

Hernia repair. I'm probably going to have that one day. My doctor told me I have one and "it's not going to get better by itself." Has never bothered me but one day it might.
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« Last Edit: 02/22/12 at 22:49:13 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #21 - 02/22/12 at 23:59:15
 
I think you will like the bass knobs! Can't vouch entirely for the Tungsols at the moment as I just tried one record and it was better. Also using some warmish Ratheon 5U4GBs, and some warmish tungsol OB3s. So the edge of the tungsol EL34 is calmed a touch. A tube I think you may like though is the Cryo'd Ruby EL34 fat boys. If I recall correctly, they have a lot of the midrange and higher characteristics similar to Winged Cs, but a tighter Bass more in line with JJ6CA7s. I will do some careful, direct testing and let you know how they sound here anyway. They are cheap too.

I had no choice on the hernia. It was sticking out above the pubic bone like half a hand ball, and had to be held in with a support thingy. Nice to have it taken care of!
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #22 - 02/23/12 at 01:10:14
 
Glad you got that taken care of!

I've got the Tungsols in right now and identified that "edge" immediately. I'll play around with attending tubes tomorrow, sounds okay watching tv tonight.

I'll keep those Rubys in mind. I now have three quads of the JJs as well as a quad of Winged Cs and these Tungsols. Even for two Toriis, I'm in good shape for a bit!
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #23 - 02/23/12 at 04:30:48
 
I will look into the Ruby sound again, but I distinctly thought of your love of the Winged C last I compared them together and how they might just fit your tastes. Will let you know.
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« Last Edit: 02/23/12 at 04:31:06 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #24 - 02/23/12 at 13:34:47
 
Thanks. Do you know what the difference is between the two Ruby types they have at cryoset?
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #25 - 02/23/12 at 15:59:42
 
Well, I have played around with voltage regulators and the Tungsols and though I got a nice drier than usual sound I found myself missing the JJs a lot and just went back to those. Once the JJs are broken in there's a very appealing openness to the sound and a warm smoothness that is quite nice for less than stellar recordings. and I'm now listening to a very stark dry recording of four saxophones alone (World Saxophone Quartet "Steppin'" on Black Saint) that sounded rather un-involving wth the Tungsols and sounds really intriguing with the JJs. So the JJs are in for a while. Smiley I'll need to put the Winged Cs in again soon to reconnect with that sound, but I must say I slowly warmed up to the sound of the JJs and am pretty acclimated to them now.

I'm drinking in the sound. . . I may be facing a period of time again where I don't have as much time with my stereo (darned working world) and so I'm savoring this as I can.

As for the bass knobs, I'm hoping I don't have to send the Torii in for a few months, as I want to do the PS Audio PWD upgrade first in the financial and "down time" schedule. Maybe next month sometime. We'll see.
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« Last Edit: 02/23/12 at 16:05:53 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #26 - 02/23/12 at 16:42:09
 
Yes the JJs are an odd Tube! They have such an individual character, for me at first they usually come off as a little veiled, but with warm up and adjustment, that lovely sense of inner ambience starts to sing and take them places no other power tube I havego. I end up quite affectionate with them also, especially with 7DJ8s.

They are really nice tubes. I am thinking of ordering a cryo pair for comparison, but man, that forever breakin period!!!

Good luck with the work world shift! Sounds pretty good working with one of your second loves! The big bikes.

I can't recall exactly, but the bass knobs weren't much to have installed. was it 125?
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #27 - 02/23/12 at 16:45:36
 
No idea. It's not really the cost so much as the down time and the fact that I've been thinking of the PS Audio upgrade longer. I'd like to get that under my belt first, and get a grip on that, and then have the Torii updated.

We'll see. . . I'm a river, I shift from day to day and prefer it that way. Smiley

I've also considered the cryo'd JJs and agree, the darned burn in time! In my case I could put them in my Mk II and use them for a time and get past the burn in. Another thing for the list.
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« Last Edit: 02/23/12 at 16:46:47 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #28 - 02/23/12 at 16:48:45
 
Being a river is good with me!

Wink
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #29 - 02/24/12 at 18:57:52
 
Lon, I don't know the difference between the Cryo Ruby EL34BSTR and the BHTs. I got the STRs on Ron's recommendation.

I just did some testing: Winged C, JJ6CA7, and the cryo Ruby STRs. It was very interesting. I wanted as transparent a background as I could get so that the SuperCryo 6N1Ps and the power tubes would really show being less influenced but the other tubes. This was some Early 80s Sylvania OA3STs (unusually open and transparent STs... very transparent, but without the edginess of the tall bottle russian OA3s I have), my most transparent very tall bottle RCA 5U4GB (with no bottom mica), and RCA OC2s. If anything this would be a slightly brutally open background set.

The Winged C were as usual for me, warm in a slightly darkish way, but redeemed by the slight emphasis in the mid/upper mids. At the same time, I always find them a bit off balance, with this upper mid clarity, but somewhat diminished definition down in the lower mids and bass. Interestingly, the 6N1Ps made these warmer than I am accustomed to....the balance of the two tubes together have a softening and warm synergy that I can imagine fits your objective of good presentation for less than stellar recordings, I think because both tend to have a slightly rich and darkish overall presentations with a an accented mid clarity that brings out necessary textures and nuances.

Next I put in the JJs. Still warm, but more inner and micro detail throughout the spectrum, more spacious, and a very good balance to me. But also slightly veiled with slightly wound down dynamics. Very nice and musical though and I like them  a lot once I settle into their sound. Forgiving without a particular sense of obvious veiled warmth.

Then the cryo Ruby STR. One more step toward increased micro and inner detail bringing out more textures and nuance, more spacious, no sense of restriction....more dynamic, and also good balance bottom to top. Still they have warmth, but of a different character with the inner detail and textures, and they have some of that seductive tubey sound the JJs have too that I might describe as sort of an inner ambience if you know what I mean. I like that quality.

I would say with this tube set and the amp settings I am using, the Ruby is like a more refined little brother to the JJ. Similar fundamental characteristics, but less restricted and less dark than the JJ. More sense of the players in the room for me. And with this tube set, a very bright and open input tube could hurt, but with the super 6N1Ps richness, I am not hearing painful stuff. So with warmer Rectifiers, and VRs they just may be a safe bet for you if you ever get the urge for more power tube exploration. Hard to say.

An interesting thing is that the JJs shortcomings always disappear for me as I grow used to them, so I like them. But the Rubies might spend more time in my amp. I like the choices, but not having the Rubies and having solely the JJs would not be a bad place to be with all the other tubes I can mix and match with!

As I listen to tubes more like I understand yours to be, I suspect that our tube tastes are probably quite similar. I mean, this 6N1P is a pretty tight little tube with lots of detail, and at least so far, the mids can get a bit edgy, but the true warmth they have softens things nicely without veils. I suspect that slight edginess will improve, but at this point my favorite inputs (at least with a good synergistic adjunct tubes) I would not necessarily call harder or edgier than these. Perhaps more revealing, but not less musical, and definitely bringing out a more intimate "Player in the room" feel. I don't dislike the slight separation the 6N1P brings to he presentations though. The smoothness of the music is very friendly. It is sort of like being further back from the band.

But my 6N1PS  only 20 or 30 hours in! And I like the presentation very much. It is pleasant and forgiving and I can imagine as they open it will all get better!!!

So thanks for the tip.


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