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6N1P distortion and low Torii volume??? (Read 4908 times)
will
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6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
01/31/12 at 16:23:10
 
Hey folks. I have not used the 6N1P in my Torii MkIII since I got it. I tried the stock pair a couple weeks ago. I had been playing a 6DJ8 at 11 0'clock on the volume. Putting in the 6N1P I  needed to turn it up to about 2 o'clock or more to match the 6DJ8 volume at 11.  Also, it began distorting between 2-3 o'clock.

So I thought i just had a bad tube.

Well, I got some new 6N1Ps and they are the same. Pretty much the same results with two sources.

What's up?

Thanks,

Will
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« Last Edit: 01/31/12 at 16:37:31 by will »  

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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #1 - 01/31/12 at 16:44:35
 
PS: It did not occur to me to check the 6DJ8 at 2-3 o'clock with the same recording. It was too loud to listen to, but it distorted then too. I never listen this loud. So I just changed out all the tubes to be sure. Same results. Caught me off guard.

With quiet source material (some DVDs), I can turn the Torii up all the way.

So really I have two questions.

Why are the 6N1P so quiet?

Is something wrong with my Torii that I get distortion?
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« Last Edit: 01/31/12 at 16:46:15 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #2 - 01/31/12 at 18:37:59
 
I don't know will. I suppose that 6N1Ps are a bit quiet in comparison to the other tube types. To be honest I really don't have any of the other tube types on hand, gave the last of mine away with the sale of my last two amps. I'm so enamored of the 6N1P sound that I don't keep the others on hand.

I run my amp's volume all the way up most of the time and have my preamp (PWD as preamp) set between 65 percent and 90 percent or so depending on the source. (DVR set to "Wide" is my lowest output source). My room is bigger perhaps so I do so. There's definitely no distortion in my use in this manner, and when I have the preamp up to 100 percent and the Torii turned all the way up on my "hottest' source input there is a bit of distortion, and it's way too loud to listen.

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« Last Edit: 01/31/12 at 19:45:52 by Lon »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #3 - 01/31/12 at 18:40:02
 
will, is it possible you have 6N2P tubes?  They defnintely distort earlier.
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #4 - 01/31/12 at 20:13:11
 
Thanks Lon,

Got me. If I recall the 6N2P is louder than the 6N1P. And the tubes I am trying are the stock Torii, and two new ones marked on the box 6N1P-EV, and 6N1P-EV cryo from Cryoset. To tell you the truth, I had no idea of this distortion until I tried to turn up the 6N1P to match volume from the 6DJ8. I had been listening loundish. Then the 6N1P just pushed something too hard before i got there.

That level with 6/7 types must always just be too loud for me. My Tranquility is something over 2 volts out, and this was with a pretty hot recording, but the Oppo distorted in a similar area of volume.
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #5 - 01/31/12 at 20:20:55
 
No, you lose headroom with the 6N2P. You do have 6N1Ps then.

So it's distorting within your normal listening range?  Seems odd to me, doesn't happen in my case. . . .

With the cryo'd ones they'll definitely loosen up over a handful of weeks and perhaps be able to be output more then. In my experience it took a long time for the extremes to open up on those tubes.
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walt
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #6 - 01/31/12 at 22:17:57
 
  I always thought the stock drivers had less gain than 6DJ8's.  I question the distortion.  What volt regulators are you using?  Did you try swapping out those?
   My speakers are fall in a definate 8 ohm range, did you try switching the impedance controls. when you get the distortion.
Walt
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #7 - 01/31/12 at 23:29:08
 
Yes with the 6N1P it will distort at the top of my listening range. Oddly, I never seem to get there with 6DJ8, 7DJ8, or 6922. They must just be that much louder without pushing the amp as much.

Walt, I did actually change out all the tubes. I was using Tungsol OB3 and changed to RCA OA3. And I changed from RCA OC2 to Raytheon OC2.

I don't know what is optimal for my HR-ONEs. Not sure if it is the same radial driver as in the ERRs (8ohm) or not,  but the other drivers are the same as the MG944 which are 4 ohm. I usually use 4 ohm on the Torii, but I think the distortion did become less obvious on 8 Ohm. Funny thing is I think I hear it most from the driver that is like the 944 bass driver....hard to say though.

thanks for the thoughts guys.
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #8 - 02/02/12 at 17:38:48
 
I just checked with Steve, and he thought this was fairly normal. That depending on the source output voltage and the source material, that the amp could start to clip as it did for me in the 2-3 o'clock range right up to full volume at about 5 o'clock. And I can turn up the amp fully with DVDs without clipping, so this makes sense. But the Tranquilitie's higher output with hot recordings it can start a little past 2 o'clock.

Interesting that the 6N1P's lower volume output causes me to get it into clip range in order to listen to some things as loud as I would like.
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #9 - 02/02/12 at 19:39:19
 
Interesting. Are you liking the 6N1P at all otherwise?
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #10 - 02/02/12 at 20:05:44
 
Sorry not to have impressions Lon. Once I heard the distortion, I got caught up in that and didn't really give them a good listen. And since they were not looking particularly optimal in terms of output volume for me, I was not sure if I wanted to trouble with burnin or not.

But I need to do some listening to try to clarify if the volume is good enough for me, and to see what they sound like! I will let you know.
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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #11 - 02/02/12 at 20:39:32
 
Cool, just curious as I love the sound, and you've never been impressed before. Smiley
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will
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #12 - 02/03/12 at 05:53:39
 
Lon, I did some listening tonight. I am a bit baffled. To get my normal moderate listening levels I am in or close to distortion with the cryo'd 6N1P. I have to turn them up about twice as much as a 7DJ8 to get moderate levels, and loud playing is out of the question. I can hear why you like the 6N1P though. It has a really nice atmospheric vibe, and a smooth and round character without leaving anything out.

The only other new tube I have to compare is a Lorenz labeled Bundeswehr Falcon 7DJ8. Both tubes sound new...a bit veiled and tight, and you can tell they will get more refined, and more extended, especially on the bottom. They actually sound quite similar in many ways. The 6N1P seems to have a bit more upper mid emphasis, and the Lorenz more balanced, but I would not call this quality of the 6N1P unpleasant at all, it adds to its character. Along with the sort of round midrange, and very slightly soft low mids, the balance the tube has a distinctly compelling quality. The Lorenz is generally more articulate and dynamic, and less atmospheric. So I think I hear what you love about the tube. It is nicely revealing with a sweet, relaxed character, and a seductive atmosphere.

If I thought I could get higher listening levels from them, I would pursue the burnin, but for whatever reasons, these tubes are not working in my system. Seems odd to me, and unfortunate. Actually it is difficult to understand that all is well with this amp and these 6N1P tubes. The levels I can get with them are certainly not "show off the the neighbors" levels. Weird. I would have liked to be able to really hear them.
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« Last Edit: 02/03/12 at 05:56:06 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #13 - 02/03/12 at 12:09:32
 
Wow, will, that just seems odd to me. I mean I figure neither of us is trying to shake the walls and crack the foundation, and it would seem that the tubes the amp ships with should be able to meet our needs. The 6N1P does give me the volume I need with headroom as well, and I would think it would you as well. Are you still using the ZStage? The output of my PWD is purportedly 2.8v. I've begun leaving the Torii turned all the way up and regulating output with the PWD and there's plenty of headroom for all my sources. The one limitation is that if I have the audio range on "Wide" on my DVR I can run out of steam on the quietest of the tv channels, but that's easily fixed by selecting "Narrow" and then I can't max out the volume on that input.

I'm very lucky I guess that the 6N1P does give me what I need, as I really find that the tube offers me the right balance for my music collection: it has that forgiving element that allows me to sink into lesser sounding source material, and it's "faults" seem to counteract the "faults" of most of the mediocre to bad cds I spin. And this super-cryo''d version has been the best I've found.

I wonder if Steve has any further insight. It just doesn't seem right the way your set up is behaving with the tube to me. . . .
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« Last Edit: 02/03/12 at 12:33:33 by Lon »  

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stone_of_tone
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Re: 6N1P distortion and low Torii volume???
Reply #14 - 02/03/12 at 16:47:57
 
Will, I guess I am stating the obvious, but here goes. As Steve mentioned and Lon reiterated with his 2.8v output of his Perfect Wave Dac..... . Your output voltage from your source is to LOW. I don't know for sure, but the USB front end your running might just be a little inherently lower volts output. To low for 6N1P's

Lon and I are running Dac's direct to our Amps. I know Lon just started doing this with his PWD. My Audio Alchemy gear was ahead of its time. I can slide the hood off the Dac and adjust the output voltage. I have mine set at 2.8 to 3.2 output volts. I have no issues driving the 6N1P LOUD and clear with SLAM on my Vintage Polk SDA 1's.

To test, you should try a higher voltage output source (NON USB) and what is the listed output voltage of your current source(s)?  Or, conversely, you mentioned your Tranquility is running higher output... do you need lower output volts?  Anyway, done stating the obvious and my 2 cents. Maybe, forgoing the 6N1P is an easier option.

PS-footnote: I have a remote control to then turn my volume up and down on my AA 3.0 Dac in the digital domain. I have no problem with this fidelity wise, because I use it at the higher end of the volume spectrum to acheive full resolution. Lon, (I guess I could look it up at PS Audio) does you PWD run volume in the digital domain or analog?
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« Last Edit: 02/03/12 at 17:05:17 by stone_of_tone »  

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