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Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy (Read 4538 times)
Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #15 - 01/24/12 at 14:33:41
 
Yeah, it's curious why he would stress that power issue so much when we talked.  At the time, the Integrated was not an option (until spring), so the only other viable alternative in my particular case was the Mini Torii (as it is a wonderful piece in its own right.)

I also remember he did not endorse the Zen Triode too much, even when I talked about bridging into monos.  For some reason, he was not going along that line of thought.  Maybe classical music is considered a tough challenge for the Zen Triodes, or something?

Please don't stay out of the discussion, Lon, as having had first hand experience with the SE34i.2 your points are very valid indeed.  Thanks ...

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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status stra
Reply #16 - 01/24/12 at 14:36:40
 
Alright, thanks. I don't quite get the now sudden "necessity" of a power regeneration item with any amp, this is unprecedented talk from Steve, not at all what he's been saying here in the forum. And as I say, all the amps benefit from one, but in my experience the difference with the power regulation onboard in the amp is not that significant that the benefits of power regulation are less pronounced, etc. It would be great if Steve had some sort of new thinking along these lines to spell it out, but I'd understand if he didn't. And as with everything with audio of this quality there are so many variables, e.g. I use some amazing power cords on my amps that may ben doing power filtering of their own etc. The head dizzies trying to consider all possibilities.

It's just that I think the Integrated is an amazing amp, I miss mine, and it was my amp in use when I was beginning to really be seduced by classical music. . . so I think it's a good mate for that genre. So I'm speaking out of passion for that amp. I think the new one will be really great! In time I might replace the Torii Mk II in my bedroom system with one, if my econcomic world improves.
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« Last Edit: 01/24/12 at 14:43:16 by Lon »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #17 - 01/24/12 at 15:14:48
 
It's interesting to note how you would consider trading what is supposed to be the pinnacle in Steve's line-up, for the SET integrated.  

I guess initially even purists eventually accept the need to trade Triode character for dynamics and power, out of physical (dimensional) necessity.

And yet, that Triode experience remains a dear memory, a sense of loss that is somehow revived by the possibilities of new developments in the Triode arena.

IMHO, Steve's aim at trying to get the best out of these two extreme design compromises is still very much alive in his current approach.  Torii and Mini Torii designs are vivid examples of this effort.

I'm curious why, if he recently considers the voltage regulation so important, he did not include it as a logical upgrade in the new Integrated design.  Somewhat contradictory, isn't it?  Maybe is a matter of keeping costs down and being able to offer an in-between market choice.  But then again, why are his comments about power regulation so emphatic?

Another puzzle here is the hike in price for the Mini Torii while at the same time keeping the Integrated at same price levels in spite of the upgrades.  Furthermore, he stressed a sonic parity between the two, making the Mini less of an appealing choice.  I just wonder ...







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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status stra
Reply #18 - 01/24/12 at 15:23:31
 
Note: I said Torii Mk II. Which is NOT the Mk III, not the current "pinnacle."* In my second system, a bedroom system, I don't anticipate ever needing the power that I do for the living-room/dining-room system, and so I can entertain the Integrated as an option. I'm not replacing "the pinnacle" in my main system, but the Mk II (one less power regulation stage, no bias adjustment and a few other differences) that was once a Mk I but upgraded by Steve. Big difference than wanting to replace the Mk III in my main system. Don't see that happening.

Also, I object to "Triode character dynamics and power" or at least what I think you infer or understand by that. Power limitations, okay, but within usable power ranges dynamics are not compromised in my experience with the Integrated. So that if you don't need the extra power, dynamics are not some sort of issue.  One other thing to consider: Steve's SETs are not "typical" in sound or design to other SET amps. And iirc, the Integrated .2 is wired in what Steve calls "pseudo-triode," not the usual way to wire an EL34 etc . in triode mode. A move towards pentode elements in the configuration.

Also my "triode memory" isn't old or stale. I listened to my Decware SE34 Monoblocks last week, just to be sure that they were all they should be before they went on their way to their new owner, Jim (thanks Jim!). And they were in my second system for a considerable part of last year, as was my Integrated before I sent it off to a new owner. Yes, on top of years of listening memory to four different Decware SET amps--and I've spent a lot more time with the SETs than the Toriis overall) there's recent, fresh memory and experience.

Anyway, other than to clarify a misrepresentation, I'll step back as I've said enough. Best of luck in your decision, at least when you hear from Steve you'll make an informed one.

* Some may say the "pinnacle" is the Zen Monoblocks!
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« Last Edit: 01/24/12 at 16:29:59 by Lon »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #19 - 01/24/12 at 17:37:15
 
I stand corrected, Lon, thanks.
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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status stra
Reply #20 - 01/24/12 at 17:40:19
 
Cool. Feeling a little passionate about Decware today, sorry. Going for a ride before the next rainstorm. Peace and have a good one.
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ZYGI
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #21 - 01/24/12 at 22:31:31
 
Lon,

Just to clear something up....There was no MK-I Torii, but the first generation Torii which was the blue chassis, just like the SE34-I and 2. Your Torii-II was always a Torii-MKII but Steve upgraded it to the current production MK-II as it's serial number was 000. Yes the first one ever built which is usually the one Steve keeps for himself

I have the blue Torii, the first generation which is serial number 000, which I will never part with.

Zygi
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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status stra
Reply #22 - 01/24/12 at 22:33:31
 
Thanks Bob. I knew that just somehow this morning that didn't come out right.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #23 - 01/24/12 at 22:49:27
 
Anybody who thinks that the 0C2 tube regulation on the inputs in the MINI does nothing, just switch it off when you are listening to the amp and the difference is palpable.
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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #24 - 01/24/12 at 23:05:36
 
Who said they did nothing? But I think it's a mistake to make its absence in any of the amps to be a reason to automatically not consider that amp.

Also, I have two amps that use them, and power conditioning still improves the sound of both. So it's not as if they're the ultimate and nothing further could improve.  . . .
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« Last Edit: 01/24/12 at 23:09:23 by Lon »  

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ZYGI
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #25 - 01/24/12 at 23:50:35
 
Thanks Lon,

  Glad you didn't think I was coming off as a butt head. I seem to have a lot of 'tude in my e-mails of late, hoping it wasn't rubbing off here as well.

Did you have a good ride between rains?

 Sometimes I have switched my Mini Torii's VR switch off and have forgotten about it, sometimes for weeks. Never miss it until you realize its not there. If Steve has improved the SE34.3, then there may be no need for the regulation, in his opinion. I never thought the  2 needed it, but what if it did have it? He's probably tried it, may not have been worth the extra cost involved.

My Z-DAC and CD player both have Tubed Regulation, not switchable but its there.
Zygi
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« Last Edit: 01/24/12 at 23:53:53 by ZYGI »  

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Fireblade
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status strategy
Reply #26 - 01/25/12 at 01:36:32
 
I wonder if there's somebody from the forum with the skills to give us a brief on what these specs all mean.

I'm referring to the built-in tube voltage regulation, which I basically understand from Steve's explanation-definition, but not as it relates to the isolation transformer and to the eventual addition of a PS Audio (example) device.  I'm not calling it a power conditioner because unfortunately there has been plenty of abuse on this concept by less scrupulous merchants.)

I also would like to understand the essence about the Lucid Mode concept, beyond what's in the site.  I think it's an interesting concept but cannot interpret those diagrams yet.

I think Lon is right in ignoring the traditional Triode/Pentode norm when discussing Decware amp designs.  Like in everything else, there are tradeoffs involved and Steve seems to have the talent to choose the right combination.  

So his Triodes and Pentodes are not typical somehow, their respective designs gradually more oriented to a more common middle ground maybe, coming from those three extremes (3rd being the Push-Pull topography).  I think Steve is looking for THE optimal amp design, where all these biased tradeoffs converge into a unique family of optimal design parameters (not in conformance with any std norm).

This makes it harder to understand the on-going developments, choices.  Granted, we are supposed to enjoy the benefits from these designs, no need to discuss or analyse them, but I can't help trying to understand the big picture and those tradeoffs.

I guess it's just my nature and the fact that I'm enjoying a lot of free time lately.  I've been reading some general vacuum tube design literature, but it gets too technical for a non electrically trained person, and frankly I rather have the layman's version.

You know what?  I think the Decfest should include some kind of seminar to explain the big picture on Decware amps, from a technical point of view.  Don't you guys think?  I'm sorry for the extension of this probably very very boring message ...  I won't post for a while, ok?



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Rivieraranch
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Re: Mini Torii's best idle-time power status strategy
Reply #27 - 01/25/12 at 02:13:38
 
Lon:

"But I think it's a mistake to make its absence in any of the amps to be a reason to automatically not consider that amp."

I agree. I would not go that far. All these amps are delightful; each in its own unique way.
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Lon
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Re: Mini Torii's best iddle-time power status stra
Reply #28 - 01/25/12 at 03:08:33
 
Jim, yes, it's really interesting to me how they're each very versatile, but they each have a distinctive character. They're like different species, but each with over-lapping common features.

The wonderful and yet frustrating thing about them is they each allow you certain choices. The line has really blossomed with exciting options. Ultimately you have to provide any of them great power and the best possible source you can get your hands on. And outside of that the real heart of the matter, the real deciding factor is: what speaker are you going to use with them. I really think that rules the roost. Some of us fall in love with speakers in our rooms and one of these amps may work better than another with those speakers. And it's possible that more than one will, and then it's really hard to determine which one to choose. Barring an unusually difficult speaker to drive, almost anyone can find the right amp for their speaker, armed with enough dollars and with some real advice. The real advice comes from this forum, though the real resource is one of the reasons this forum is a bit different and interesting: we have Steve to call and to appear and give us direction.

FB, good points, and I think it's an organic evolving "thing" this Decware experience. Builder and listener learning, it's not all quite nailed down yet, but unfolding. Your questions and answers have been a positive part of the whole. We're all in this together. Wink

Bob, I managed to get out of the city and onto the road just a little bit, and back again before the rain hit. The roads weren't too bad and neither was the traffic. I've a new jacket this season, for the first time a real traditional motorcycle jacket, and today was the perfect day to wear it comfortably. We're due to get really cold soon, so I'm squeezing in little forays while I can.
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« Last Edit: 01/25/12 at 03:11:01 by Lon »  

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