Forums - SE34i.2+ being discontinued!

MarkBlair

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Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #90 - 01/05/12 at 18:07:44

Just to muddy the waters a bit, please search for my postings within the past year.

I have a little personal recording studio in a 10x12 room, using an Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC pushing a single SE84C+ and dual HSU STF-1 Subs (via a separate preamp which then feeds dual Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ's, and then to the HSU subs). I get the best sound by not using any external crossover (just what's built into the subs), and sending two RCA cables out of each DAC output (to feed the corresponding speaker and sub).

I'm using PMC TB2S+ speakers (fabulous!) with just a 90dB rating, I'm listening near-field (30-36 inches away), and the sound is just amazing. My normal listening volume at the central sweet spot is between 80-85dB.

Bottom line: anything more than 2 watts would go to waste in my setup, and a friend told me he can't believe that the sound in my little studio compares with multi-million dollar studios that he's been in.

Food for thought...

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« Last Edit: 01/05/12 at 18:09:47 by MarkBlair »

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opnly_bafld Ex Member	Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued! Reply #91 - 01/06/12 at 00:40:25 Mark, Are you running the SE84 and the PMCs fullrange? If so, have you ever listened extensively without the subs running? Thanks, Lin
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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #92 - 01/06/12 at 00:58:21

Lin -

Yes -- full bass is going to the PMCs and the subs (but the subs have their own built-in low-pass filter), so the subs provide bass augmentation. I've done extensive testing of my room, and the PMCs by themselves have a big dropoff in bass response below 90Hz (caused more by the room than the speakers) -- but that contributes to the really nice "blend" that I get when adding the stereo STF-1 subs. For such a small room, I've been really lucky with how things have worked out.

But, by themselves, the PMCs (in my room) just don't have enough bass for my taste, and to allow me to properly evaluate the bass on mixes that I work on.

P.S. -- I had the PMCs for several months before I fully realized that they were too bass shy. It wasn't until I started doing some tests that I realized what was going on.

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« Last Edit: 01/06/12 at 01:13:01 by MarkBlair »

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Fireblade

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Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
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Posts: 628

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #93 - 01/06/12 at 01:14:07

Hi Mark. Good for you! BTW that's exactly the SUB connection I am going to use: Two Y spliiters for each DAC output, one end to the amp and the other to the low-level IN in my Velodyne, repeating for both channels. The only doubt I have is potential degradation of the signal going to the amp (SUB is of no consequence), due to the extra splitting/low quality of the commercial Y splitters.

You sure are close to those speakers. In my current SS system and smallish room, the average sweet spot is anything between 100 to 108 inches away (8.5 to 9 ft). Your setup is almost midway between speakers listening and using headphones!

Well, if it works that good, excellent. I just couldn't be that close, I suppose. It must take some getting used to. That explains not needing any further power, as 80-85 dBs SPL should be absolutely achievable with 2 W/c and 90 dBs speakers, but is not my thing. Thanks for sharing the tip.

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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #94 - 01/06/12 at 01:26:11

I was amazed that I couldn't sense any degradation splitting the output of my DAC to the SE84C+ and the subs -- but the degradation in my case was horrendous then I first tried to use an extra pair of speaker cables to push the subs' high-level inputs. I could have sworn that I would have to use an active crossover to make this work, but luckily I didn't

Nearfield monitoring ihas been pretty typical in recording studios for the past 30 years or so, and I've never really liked it until I got this current setup. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's great for mixing songs. And it 's also unbeatable (from my point of view) for a critical solo listening experience. But it's critical to have a speaker with a killer crossover design (like the PMCs) when listening that close...

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« Last Edit: 01/06/12 at 01:29:16 by MarkBlair »

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Fireblade

Seasoned Member

Knowledge comes, but
wisdom lingers.
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Posts: 628

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #95 - 01/06/12 at 01:50:16

I take it you are using the readily available Y splitters? I'm asking because I've never seen a high quality type yet. It's great to hear you have not sensed any degradation with these.

I currently use a splitter from the mono SUB OUT in my SS amp because my low-level SUB input is stereo (+ 3dBs when using both channels). But I was unconfortable considering this same setting for the signal path from the DAC to the amp, when the time comes (have never done that, as my current amp has Mono SUB OUT).

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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #96 - 01/06/12 at 02:51:01

I'm using a pair of AudioQuest brand solid (all metal) splitters that I got from Amazon for about $12 each. I've also tried some $6 similar generic ones from PartsExpress.com, and I can't tell the difference. Again, I can't detect any degradation whatsoever. And I can hear really low-level detail with this setup.

Bottom line: you have to try it to know for sure. I would have bet that it wouldn't work -- but it did. And it sounds absolutely amazing. And you're right -- my setup is a cross between speakers and headphones, which is exactly what I've been looking for. But, again, it requires a superb crossover (if your speakers have a crossover) to listen nearfield. Otherwise, it'll probably sound unacceptable.

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opnly_bafld

Ex Member

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #97 - 01/06/12 at 04:01:50

Mark,

Do you by any chance have Rebecca Pidgeon's Spanish Harlem or something similar that for a least part of the song is just double bass and voice?

I'd be very surprised if your 90 dB PMCs will reproduce the bass cleanly at the levels mentioned with ~2 watts based on my recent experience with 90 dB single driver speaks and a 1.8 watt SET nearfield at <90 dB*. When I switched the amp to pentode (6w) it had no problems and most of the time in triode mode it worked fine.

I was just thinking your subs might be masking the rare occasions (depending on the type of music) when the SE84 may not be enough.

Lin

*I didn't have the meter out so I may have been higher than 80-85.

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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #98 - 01/06/12 at 04:23:43

Excellent point! My STF-1 subs only go down to about 30Hz, but that's not a problem for me because the lowest string on an electric bass guitar only goes down to about 41Hz, and I roll-off everything in my mixes below about 35Hz, anyway. Yes -- I don't mix classical music. Wink

However, the beauty of the setup I've stumbled into is that the speakers by themselves (in my particular room) have absolutely no significant output below about 40Hz -- so I can't even hear where the SE84C+ is likely to be "struggling" a bit.

So yes, the subs are absolutely taking up the slack (from 30Hz-90Hz). But if/when I start listening to enough double bass (or other orchestral mixes), I'll probably have to consider upgrading my HSU STF-1 subs. But the system sure sounds great (down to about 30Hz), which works very well for all my current mixing and listening needs.

But that's still a great point!

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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #99 - 01/06/12 at 04:50:05

Oh, by the way, Lin -- before I got the subs I WAS able to get the SE84C+ to distort very badly by using it as an electric bass guitar amplifier, with the SE84C+ volume knob at max -- so when pushed hard, 2 watts just doesn't cut it for extreme low bass (but it was just fine when not pushed that hard -- at lower volumes).

And I think that experience contributed to my initial decision to see if I could successfully integrate subs into my setup. So, again, that's a really good point that you brought up.

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« Last Edit: 01/06/12 at 04:53:09 by MarkBlair »

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opnly_bafld Ex Member	Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued! Reply #100 - 01/06/12 at 12:41:26 I guess I should have mentioned that my speakers are in a sealed box, start to roll off at 150 hz and are down 12 dB at 75 hz. Therefore I'm not referring to deep bass, but the power required to reproduce certain instruments even at lower levels.
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MarkBlair

Senior Member

Posts: 59

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #101 - 01/06/12 at 15:07:38

Lin -

So can I presume you use a sub to fill in the lower end of the spectrum?

But going back to your implied question, I guess at my nearfield 80-85dB standard listening level, I'm pulling well under one watt out of my SE84C+ -- so that may explain why I have no issues whatoever at this time from 30Hz on up. And even though I'm not currently using low-bass orchestral samples in songs, I use some pretty low synth bass and electric guitar notes at times, and (luckily!) I've had no issues getting solid bass out of the system. But below 90Hz, most of that is coming from the stereo HSU STF-1 subs.

I even tried playing some live low electric bass guitar notes through my system after my previous post, and they sound rich, deep, and totally solid to me at this time. Not a hint of what I would expect to hear if the SE84C+ bass was breaking down.

Based on my original bass guitar distortion issue at max volume on the SE84C+ (before integrating the stereo subs into my system), I could have sworn that I'd need an external active crossover to filter out the low bass from going through the SE84C+ and getting to the PMC speakers. But, luckily, I didn't. So I'm glad I tried out this setup first before mentally dismissing it as unworkable. Again, to my ears, it's now one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard. But nearfield listening certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea...

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« Last Edit: 01/06/12 at 19:06:37 by MarkBlair »

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Pale Rider

Seasoned Member

Posts: 1271

Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #102 - 01/06/12 at 15:22:05

Lin suggested:

Quote:

Do you by any chance have Rebecca Pidgeon's Spanish Harlem or something similar that for a least part of the song is just double bass and voice?

PMFJIH, but I echo trying this recording. It is a great track for hearing the mid-range and low end at the same time with fewer "competitive layers" to listen through. Good album overall. Good on CD and nice on hi-res as well from HD Tracks.

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« Last Edit: 01/06/12 at 15:24:16 by Pale Rider »

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MarkBlair Senior Member Posts: 59	Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued! Reply #103 - 01/06/12 at 17:36:55 Fair enough -- I'll see if I can track it down and give it a try...
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opnly_bafld Ex Member	Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued! Reply #104 - 01/06/12 at 22:26:26 "So can I presume you use a sub to fill in the lower end of the spectrum?" No, I bought a new flea watter a couple of months ago and I was using these temporarily.
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