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SE34i.2+ being discontinued! (Read 17840 times)
Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #60 - 01/01/12 at 20:17:30
 
Thank you, Chris K, I've checked now and then both at Audiogon and here.  A couple of those appeared in Audiogon recently, and were gone the same day! Thanks for the tip, though
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ski bum
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #61 - 01/01/12 at 20:54:16
 
FB, these are all excellent points the guys are making. Speaker matching for the little Zens is so critical. Can be a PITA, and possibly more expensive. Unless, of course, you choose right the first time. Seems to me you are doing your due diligence.

For a Zen and small room, you need:
-Sensitivity and friendly impedance, just to get your foot in the door. 95db/w would be the minimum to me. The Tekton appears to be a good match, worth considering.
-You also need either very smooth off-axis response (can anything beat an ERR?) or controlled directivity. This will help keep overall power response at your ears true to the source. I'm not convinced the Tekton measures up here (the tweet will have much wider dispersion that that big woof in the crossover region), and would probably require more extensive acoustic treatments for the room and care with placement to sound it's best.

That's just a partially informed wild eyed guess, never heard the Tektons. And my ears are probably shot from listening to those big ol horns all these years. (By the way, if you can find some old Klipsch Quartets, they work splendidly with Zens in small rooms. Forte ll, too, if they'll fit.)
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« Last Edit: 01/01/12 at 21:10:56 by ski bum »  
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #62 - 01/02/12 at 15:55:33
 
Hi ski bum, thank you for the very good points you are making. You've got me thinking now.

It's curious to note that I have not been able to find higher than 95 dBs at affordable prices (either that, or they are too big for my needs). It's also interesting to note that Decware speakers' range are 94 dBs or less, except for two (one at 95 & one at 96).

The most concerning uncertainty right now is exactly what you're disclosing: Impedance dynamics and directionality (the last one should be of less concern in smaller rooms though).

TBH, I'm not familiar at all with these specs, so I'm going to have to trust other people's experiences, as I cannot demo these.  I've looked for several well known discontinued speakers out there, like the ones you mentioned, but these are hard to get (they are sold the very day they show-up on 2nd markets).

I would hate to have to re-furbish this room, as it's been done and the wife may not like the end result either. It's not so bad in terms of acoustics, I would say (not an expert), except it has an opening on one side that connects into another room.  I guess I'm just running a calculated risk here with the Tektons model 81t, but it's as far as I can accomodate for now.

Of course, the other alternative is to go with the more dynamic Mini-Torii. It's a shame price went up recently by $200.00. Nevertheless, the SE84C+ still allows the opportunity to further increase power down the road by bridging into monoblocks configuration, if deemed required.

Finally, I have also considered adding either a ZStage preamp or a ZBox to boost the little guy up.  These choices are not something I can decide on my own, and would prefer not to go into an endless trial-and-error process to find my definitive setup.

It is thanks to input like yours that I can increase my chances of nailing it the first time around (and, of course talk to Steve soon). Appreciate. Later ...














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Lon
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #63 - 01/02/12 at 16:04:29
 
FB, note that the ZBOX will likely improve the sound of any source you pair it with before a Zen amp, but. . . it won't "boost" the sound as it will not add any gain. ZSTAGE or CSP2+ will.
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #64 - 01/02/12 at 17:06:23
 
You're right Lon, I just re-read the info. The ZStage is the one with the capability to ride the gains on both sides for improved dynamics (I keep mixing these up, sorry).

The following is an overview of my choices:

1. Zen Triode by iself
2. Two Zen Triodes in tandem (monos)
3. Zen Triode + ZStage (from my USB/DAC)
4. Mini-Torii by itself
5. Possible SE34i.2+ Replacement by itself

Speaker-wise, I'm still stuck with the Tektons model 81t, for now. Physical restrictions/decor won't allow anything else within this specs range that I know of.

If anybody wants to add comments on these choices I would be happy to read about them.

Thanks, Lon. Take care ...











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ski bum
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #65 - 01/02/12 at 18:07:33
 
"The most concerning uncertainty right now is exactly what you're disclosing: Impedance dynamics and directionality (the last one should be of less concern in smaller rooms though)."

I disagree with either being of less concern. Friendly impedance is perhaps more fundamental in planning a system, but speaker behavior is where the rubber meets the road.

"It's curious to note that I have not been able to find higher than 95 dBs at affordable prices (either that, or they are too big for my needs)."

For new speakers of the controlled directivity/horn type with high sensitivity (higher than Decware's offerings) check out Pi Speakers. Very inexpensive kits for the DIYer, and finished products at still reasonable prices. I have no idea what their return policy is. They are in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Is that close enough for an audition?

"I guess I'm just running a calculated risk here with the Tektons model 81t."

If you are planning on having them veneered, the cost is pretty close to the Decware DM945 (http://www.decware.com/newsite/DM945.html), which has a striking similarity to the Tekton (but is much sexier looking), and you can rest assured of it's compatibility with Decware amps. (Yeah, that's homerism, but this is the Decware forum after all!)







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Rivieraranch
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #66 - 01/02/12 at 18:31:21
 
You would have a return privilege on the DM945's [if you ha-ted them, which appears highly doubtful]; not sure if TEKTON has one.
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ski bum
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #67 - 01/02/12 at 20:44:29
 
Decware, Tekton, and Pi all have similar 30 day return policies with restocking fees, for non-custom finishes only. The DM945 already has gorgeous veneer work, but I think that's a custom option for the Tektons, which may overrule any return. Can you live with flat black?

The 8.1t and Decware DM945 would probably present similar room interactions with their similar driver complement. Either would likely prove to be high-value, Decware-amp-friendly speakers, if not cost-no-object perfection.

Alternately, you could try the controlled directivity approach. The similarly priced 3 Pi would be more sensitive (good option should you go with a single SE84 or Select). Wayne (owner of Pi) is quite familiar with Decware amps and several of his customers use them. The 3 Pi is pictured here on their home page:

http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html

I suppose my horny bias is showing through, but I've had great results with the approach.
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #68 - 01/03/12 at 00:18:13
 
Thanks to all for these interesting observations. But hold your horses now, hold your horses! I understand your enthusiasm, but let's check the facts:

1. The DM945 is a bookshelf design, and thus has its dimensional compromises. There is just so much you can do with materials and clever design, but you cannot beat acoustical physics.  These speakers are as much as 17% smaller in volume to the Tekton 81t. This is a big difference, especially sharing the same transducer size of 8".

2. The DM945's are $995.00 vs $649.00 for the 81t.

3. The DM945 is 94 dBs vs 95 dBs on the 81t. Note, this last dB is a deal breaker, as the consensus on these forum discussions has been not to go under that 95 dB limit figure for the Zen Triode (it should be 96, BTW).

One thing I cannot judge is the difference in the high frequency (tweeter) design/behavior on either models, so probably the DM945 is better.

My current speakers are bookshelf too, though even smaller.  They sound ok as per sophisticated sake-soaked birch wood baffles, in both transducers, are bi-amplified at different power for tweeters and woofers, and bi-wired by design, but are not high-end. I would not compromise sound to physical compliance.

I know the site insists the Zen Triode can move these speakers with weight and authority, but this also depends on the overall setting (listening environment). Since I may not be able to control my environment that much, the more sensitive the better, to be on the safe side.

Regarding the Pi Speakers from Tulsa (and, yes, is far away from home), I can see they propose a new, more sophisticated approach to directionality. Yet, I insist, if you define your sweet spot in a traditional system, and plan to listen within that area, the otherwise desirable omni-directionality, axis-deviation correction, etc., are less substantial an objective, especially in smaller settings. That's why it's called 'sweet spot'.

We are trying to build the best system possible within a budget, so lets invest in best bang for the buck.  My system will never be optimal, but should sound very good provided I invest smartly. BTW, Pi Speakers have inexpensive kits, but their comparable completed speaker sets are more expensive than Tekton's.

If these sound great, who cares about black finishes? Actually, black goes well in my intended setup structure, seriously.  To think about ... Later.





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opnly_bafld
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #69 - 01/03/12 at 02:00:55
 
"3. The DM945 is 94 dBs vs 95 dBs on the 81t. Note, this last dB is a deal breaker, as the consensus on these forum discussions has been not to go under that 95 dB limit figure for the Zen Triode (it should be 96, BTW)."

I'm not sure if Decware actually measures or calculates based on driver measurements, but 94 dB 1w/1m is believable given the drivers used.

Again based on the drivers used I'm pretty sure the Tekton's are rated at 2.83v/1m which with 4 ohm drivers will give a 3 dB advantage over 1w/1m (ie 95 becomes 92dB).

Comparing the stated specs from various manufacturers is usually like comparing apples to oranges because of differing measurement techniques.
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« Last Edit: 01/03/12 at 02:13:57 by opnly_bafld »  
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #70 - 01/03/12 at 02:39:48
 
I see what you're saying opnly_bafld, and this is a serious (unknown to me) twist in what is supposed to be standard specs.  I will need to check with Erick about the units of measurements used in reporting their 95 dBs sensitivity parameter.

If you are right, there's a big difference and a real drawback on Tekton (deal breaker right there!)

Thanks for the warning.
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #71 - 01/03/12 at 02:53:24
 
Ok, while I check the sensitivity measurements issue, let me ask to any of you possible current or previous owners of the SE84C+ /DM945 (or DM944) combo about your impressions.

I'm particularly concerned by the relatively limited volume on the DM945 box.  If I have a preconceived notion that's blurring my judgement on the DM's, in relation to their potential synergy with the Zen Triode, I need to know it, and hopefully make a better decision.

Again, thanks so much for your support.
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #72 - 01/03/12 at 13:28:47
 
opnly_bafld: I found the info on sensitivity measurements, and your poit is correct:

If the impedance is 4 ohms, then the power output would be 2.83V x 2.83V 4 ohms = 2W, rather than 1 W. Since every doubling of power is equivalent to 3 dBs, the 95 dBs rated at a theoretical 8 Ohms should be 92 dBs.

I sent a message to the designer to see how is he reporting the sensitivity on his 4 Ohms speakers, to make sure.

Thanks
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ski bum
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #73 - 01/03/12 at 15:19:21
 
If you want power and authority with just two watts, I'm afraid you will have to go bigger.

You near Baltimore?

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/2779628646.html

Or NY?

http://rochester.craigslist.org/ele/2699244590.html

Or Denver?  (They're asking way too much, these have been up for a while)

http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/2754780529.html
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« Last Edit: 01/03/12 at 15:47:42 by ski bum »  
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #74 - 01/03/12 at 15:47:50
 
Hi ski bum! Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I'm way far from Baltimore. Besides, buying something this old implies re-furbishing all the internals. That's a complication for me and brings up the final cost.  

I need to keep looking around, as the 8.1 T Tektons at 4 Ohms are confirmed 92 dBs (not 95 dBs as reported) at 8 Ohms.  Therefore, I'm looking back to their M-Lore at 8 Ohms and true 95 dBs.

Unless I find something at 4 Ohms at this same sensitivity, or a significantly higher sensitivity at 8 Ohms, I'll need to get two SE84C+'s, as my min power needs increase now to 4.0 W/c at 8 Ohms.

Looking forward to speak to Steve this morning.  Thanks again ski, take care ...




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