hi fireblade,  i often use my 84c+ to drive my 95 db efficient audio nirvana 12s. small very irregularly shaped room.  i do use a csp2.  also use a zbox i just got from lon (thank you, lon).  the zbox seems to eat up some output power so i do have to turn up the whole kit and caboodle to keep up loud sounds.  my experience is that the zen is reaching the limit of it's strength without the csp2.....my experience may be being influenced by my unwillingness to turn the zen all the way up.  just me?? so at that point i hook up my pre-owned se34.1 (highly modded by steve to be basically a power amp.  do not know the power output.  just forgot to ask steve.  mystery to me.  just know that decware has started to pull me out of my profound state of audio ignorance......possible suggestion: there is a feature on audiogon  that allows one to  list one's interest in a particular item.  go to the decware section, find the wanteds and proceed.  good luck, don

Fire:

Before buying my little ZEN SE84C+ in October I owned a TABOO and a MINI TORII. I must confess that the SET magic of the little ZEN amp took me by surprise. Not that it is "better" but different in a certain captivating, involving way. For example, I took two weeks off for the holidays and brought the ZEN home rather than leave it at the office.  

Now I am thinking of someday acquiring another ZEN to create monoblocks, or two ZEN SELECT SE84ZS to monoblock, or the ZEN SE84ZTM MONOBLOCKS with the tube regulation. I might just do it.  Therefore, I think you are on the right track to begin with an SET amp. I should have.      

Thank you, Don Pettit. Now this is not good news. My listening room is small also and somewhat irregular (opening on one side) 15' x 10', so I may need more power also (same 95dBs).  Unless the Nirvanas have a complex crossover and/or an odd impedance curve.

I don't understand the ZStage consuming output power? I thought the whole idea of that box was to increase gain and to boost the amp's output/dynamics/performance, with an added tube flair. How come it is doing the opposite?

I think that adding a 2nd ZEN in a 2-monos config should be even better than adding a preamp to a little guy like the Zen. I mean, it does not need really any further tube flavor, what it needs is a buddy to carry the load!  Although the gain stage of a CSP2+ helps (as should the ZStage), there's no substitute for power in this case.  And it's even cheaper ... Am I wrong here?

Thanks ang good listening!

Hi Jason, thanks for joining in!  You may be right on the first assumption, but it seems to me these are two distinct niches:

1. The Mini Torii is a technological show-case (the jewel of the house). Boasts all kinds of engineering tricks, including miniature dimensions. It's like two Zens sharing the same chassis, but with many non-standard features. Only 4 W/c (8 Ohms)

2. The Zen Triode is a classical SET amp, which when bridged provides 4 W mono (8 Ohms). With larger tubes this power goes to 6 W mono. Sharing the same chassis, these two monos act like an integrated amp.  More power and convenience, no extra features but without the need of a preamp.  Classic design integrated SET.

Regardless of pricing, these are distinct offerings to satisfy different needs.  I bet the new chassis is part of an upgrade, as you said, and maybe a price increase justification over the SE34i.2+.  I doubt and hope this model won't be discontinued indefinitely.

That's just my ill-informed guess, so take it with a grain of salt. I like the Mini-Torii but I can't jump on it before talking to Steve about my real options. He's coming back after the offer has expired, but cé la vie!

Take care now ...

Hi Lon, thanks for pointing that out. It seems I keep confusing all this weird names .. He He..! (maybe Alzheimer's is getting close?  HOPE NOT!!)

Indeed I meant the ZBox. Just replace that name where appropriate in my previous discussion, thats exactly what I was trying to say.  

BTW, my ex BMW R1200C will become a classic in due time, just because of the odd and unique style (and 1st and last Cruiser from BMW). I purchased the first one that came out in 1996/7.  The R90 was similar to one of my first bikes, a Moto Guzzi 850 T (1975 model). God I'm old!!  Cheers,

Hey Fire.  You are right in that the Torii platform is technologically different that any of the true SET's.
Quite honestly, if I was trying to choose M Torii vs Integrated, I'd like to have an integrated myself.  In fact, I would trade my first gen Torii for an integrated.
I started off in Decware land with a Torii because of the power but along the way I did have a Zen Select for a while to compare it to.  Had to have one just to make sure I wasn't missing something.
I owned another SET along the way too.
In the end the bigger Torii's won out as being best overall amp.

I hope if the integrated lives on it will be on the new platform with the OA3 regulation added.
I will be sorry to see it leave if it doesn't return.

Hey Jason, what exactly is the OA3 regulation? I'm glad you like your big Torii. Have you had the opportunity to compare the Zen Triode (SE84C+) with your Zen SELECT? Are there great differences? I think Lon mentioned that this was kind of an upgraded version of the Zen Triode?  I'm curious about these upgrades.

Regarding the integrated, I hope Steve offers some fast replacement at reasonable prices.  Also, could you tell me exactly why you think the big Torii is a better amp overall (other than power)?  

I hear you Lon, and agree with both statements. Later ...