opnly_bafld posted this link:

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This is a good summary. I have a lot of respect for Geddes' work, and I have heard some of that theory in practice. Some very good speakers. But I have always found his multi-sub approach especially interesting, particularly his advice not to high-pass your main speakers. A lot of other writers seem to recommend high-pass specifically to reduce their bass load. I am probably more in that latter camp as well.

Fireblade -

In essence, my DAC (with its volume control) is also acting as a pre-amp.  So if your DAC doesn't have a volume control, I suggest (as you thought) splitting off your pre-amp outs to control both the subs' and amp's volume at the same time.

And you can certainly survive with just one sub -- but it's a myth that low bass is mono.  And so there are two arguments for multiple subs: 1) you can achieve a more uniform bass response (in this case, the two or more subs usually work with mono bass), and 2) you can achieve true stereo bass with two subs (or multiples of two if you're particularly adventurous!).

In my case, I was actually able to achieve both goals -- true stereo bass and a pretty darn flat response (but only at my central sweet spot) down to 30Hz.  Most folks are happy achieving goal #1 (which is certainly not a trivial accomplishment).  That was my primary goal (an even bass response).  But since I was able to accomplish that with my subs symetrically placed just in front of my nearfield monitors (but on the floor), I was also able to get true stereo bass.  And for true stereo recordings from an actual venue (as opposed to being synthesized with an mixing console and added stereo effects), you can certainly hear the difference with stereo bass.

Again, I've been very lucky with my setup.  BUT -- if I hadn't tried it, I would have never known it would work so well.

Fireblade -

Sounds like you're on roughly the same page as I am (but bass doesn't travel slower than treble -- the wavelength is just longer).  But I wouldn't obsess too much about stereo subs.  That could be left for a future enhancement.

But getting a consistent bass level (objective 1) would be a huge accomplishment -- so mayble it's a good idea to proceed in phases.  I started with one mono sub before I realized I wanted to see if I could make stereo subs work.

So yes, I'm talking about uniform bass levels -- and I think that's what everyone wants.  I was able to get that with one sub -- but only within a relatively small sweet spot (again, I use nearfield monitoring).  Typical mid-field listeners (which I define to be roughly 8-10 feet away from the speakers) who want a sweet spot that can acommodate more than one person will -- in my opinion -- be hard pressed to accomplish that (a uniform bass response) with just one sub -- particularly in a room of less than 2500 cubic feet.

This is just my opinion, so don't let that stop you from trying!  And you know what?  Uniform bass response, stereo subs, etc., are NOT CRITICAL to getting great enjoyment from great music.  So -- don't sweat the small stuff.  

In the Homebrewer hobby, where some of us can get truly fanatical and build/buy full barrel microprocessor-managed, digitally controlled brewing systems, we have an internet acronym: RDWHAHB, which stands for Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew. Sometimes I have to remind myself of the same thing here. I still remember listening to my little transistor radio as a kid, and simply loving the music.

The problem with high-fidelity is that once you start, it is very important to try to keep one's sense of perspective. Having said that, I think what Mark says is right. You can enjoy the music without perfect bass, though I do believe good bass is very important to a well-rounded, accurate, believable system. But taking it in phases is probably a very good suggestion. I would add the further suggestion to try and map a path that facilitates growth or improvement, without the requirement of throwing out or selling stuff. Experimenting with subs and separate amps can get pretty expensive. Given my decision to go with a dual servo sub approach, I now have some extra items I don't need. Funny thing is, the Rhythmik servo approach is where I was first inclined to go, before I got sidetracked and then returned to a variant, still servos but in custom cabinets.

Between Ultra, Torii, and ERR break-in, Bob Z. suggested to me I take my time. He's right. I remember the day "the bottom fell open" on the ERRs. Very rich in the bass. And the Toriis continue to bloom.

Right now, I have very good, solid, articulate bass in the system, but I will eventually get the subs done, and then we shall see what we have next!

P.S. I am also a wine person, but wouldn't dream of trying to make it. Had a brother in law once who did, and he did it about as well as possible, but still..........meh. But it is possible to make superlative beer.

Don't get me wrong. Although I prefer wine, I can enjoy a well brewed beer too.  The best I've tasted was in Sao Paulo, in a pub that made their own beers.  I spent two years living there, so I developed a taste for this wsell-known special black beer from the house, that I simply loved.  Problem is, I don't find these around anymore.

While working in Cologne, years ago, a german co-worker made me taste several types.  Good beer, although strong and at room temperature.  This way you can really taste the ingredients, but those weren't for my.  Funny!

I feel your pain Hank!

I do expect that the new replacement with one or two more regulation stages will be an improved one, and likely a sonic wonder. And I bet if you seriously wanted another to match yours that used ones will become available.

Actually, to my pleasant surprise the new amp is happening with some divine luck at a much earlier time than expected.  I'm listening to it now.  I made a post in the SE34I.2 forum.

Here's what shook out...

New integrated sounds better than the old ones do, in part from "lucid mode" being the foundation of it's design.

The price is staying the same and my even be offered with a single pair of inputs for less money still.

That puts it in a similar sonic league with the Mini Torii, but at a lower price making it an easier choice when trying to decide between the two amps.  It works well without a preamp, as it always has.

Steve