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SE34i.2+ being discontinued! (Read 18240 times)
MarkBlair
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #105 - 01/06/12 at 23:52:18
 
It's been a bit of a pain integrating stereo subwoofers, but well worth the effort.  But to be honest, I don't think I'd be able to make subs work with speakers that start to roll off at 150Hz.

But -- out of curiosity -- with your response down about 12dB at 75Hz, have you noticed any bass performance anomalies?  And it sounds like you're using somethng other than a Decware low-wattage amp?
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #106 - 01/06/12 at 23:56:04
 
On the general Active SUB connection topic, I understand there are basically 6 possible configurations (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. DAC OUT to SUB IN (Low-level) - Indep. vol. controls, can use SUB X-Over

2. AMP/Preamp Low-level PRE OUT to SUB IN (Low level) - Indep vol. control, can use SUB X-Over

3. AMP/Preamp High-level PRE OUT to SUB IN (High level) - Volume control in tandem, can use SUB X-Over

4. Same as 3 above, with High Level OUT from SUB return to Amp IN - Indep volume control, using SUB X-Over

5. AMP High level OUT (spkrs) to SUB High Level IN - Indep volume control, can use SUB X-Over

6. Same as above but with SUB High Level Spkrs OUT return to AMP High level OUT (spkrs) - Indep volume control, using SUB X-Over

Best ones, advantages and disadvantages? (I hope these are right, but I'm not sure about all of them).

I think this is an important element in the setup and I want to make sure I tapp all the synergies involved by choosing the best in my case.

Any comments or suggestions?

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MarkBlair
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #107 - 01/07/12 at 00:14:47
 
And don't forget the option of inserting an active crossover (like the Bryston 10B-Sub) after a DAC or preamp, and then in essence T'ing off to the power amp and the subwoofer.  That's what I thought I'd have to do to prevent what I thought would be occasional SE84C+ over-driven bass to my PMC speakers...
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #108 - 01/07/12 at 00:40:01
 
That is a great approach I was not aware of.  It can certainly eliminate the stresses of crossing over at high levels (AMP), and avoid a lower quality built-in SUB X-Over. Nice

Bass is crucial and very demanding, especially with flea Watters.  So, which is the preferred one for a setup consisting of Source / DAC / Preamp-AMP / Speakers? (other than adding an external X-Over?).

I guess I want to understand the tradeoffs involved, as these are not clear to me yet.  I know most of these will work, and normally I wouldn't care much and would choose the easiest one. But in our particular, low level/high sensitive speakers' setup, I think optimizing this is as important or more than choosing the right cables and interconnects.

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ski bum
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #109 - 01/07/12 at 01:19:07
 
FB- there is some amount of pleasant harmonic texturization from the output trannys that would be passed on if you fed speaker level signal to the sub.  While not absolutely necessary, it's something to consider.

Most subs don't have any high pass filtering in either their line level pass through or the speaker level pass through, so you don't really need to waste extra cables routing things that way.  Keep it simple.

If you need to squeeze a little more out of your amp then an active crossover would come in handy, but my experience mirrors MarkBlair's.  I actually have one but don't presently use it.
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« Last Edit: 01/07/12 at 01:37:13 by ski bum »  
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MarkBlair
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #110 - 01/07/12 at 01:52:56
 
And to tag on to ski bum's comments, if you don't use a really excellent active crossover, you'll probably be creating more problems.  I've tried pretty much every feasible option in my current setup (except for the active external crossover), and the DAC > low level (rca) out > splitter > SE84c+ and the active sub(s) works best for me.

The main danger in setups like this is the overlap of frequencies below the sub's cutoff freq, since both the sub and main speakers output overlaps there.  I'm really lucky that my main speakers (coupled with the room) trails off fairly steeply starting at my subs' crossovers.  But your mileage may vary.

But, IMHO, this option is at least worth trying before considering the huge additional expense of a decent external active crossover (like the Bryston).
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« Last Edit: 01/07/12 at 01:55:59 by MarkBlair »  
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #111 - 01/07/12 at 02:06:04
 
Got it, ski. Thanks! I just feel wiring speakers OUT (high level) is cumbersome and prone (maybe) to more degradation?

Can we then narrow this to either the pre OUTs to low-level SUB IN (L+R) or the splitter for DAC OUT to AMP and SUB?  Which is more convenient you guys think?  

The former, when applied to the Mini Torii, incorporates some input stage tube effects and has volume in tandem with SUB (which can be adjusted further on its own, if desired).

The latter is independent of the amp (no input tube stage effects), and SUB controls volume for all low frequencies under the X-Over cutoff.

Thanks again ...







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MarkBlair
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #112 - 01/07/12 at 02:22:19
 
My DAC has a volume control, so I now leave the volume on my SE84C+ at max.  So a setup like this would control your amp & sub volume at the same time.

I should mention that -- either way -- you're going to have to spend some serious time getting the amp & subs' relative volumes correlated.  There are some good manual ways to do it (the book "Get Better Sound" has some really good advice), but I used a couple of software spectrum analysis tools (along with a calibrated microphone) to assist.

Either way, this step is, IMHO, crucially important to getting balanced sound.  Furthermore, I don't think a single sub will ever work as well as stereo subs -- both balance-wise and stereo image-wise...
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« Last Edit: 01/07/12 at 04:21:15 by MarkBlair »  
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #113 - 01/07/12 at 15:38:53
 
Got it, Mark, thanks. I was going to setup the SUB this way, before I learned about the other possibilities.  Now, learning from your experiences I will definitely go that way, initially.  

With respect to adjusting bass volume, I believe it must be much more difficult in a stereo bass setting. In my own mono SUB experience, the SUB's volume can be adjusted independently until you hear the level that best complements the rest of the system. That is how it works in my current setup.  My bookshelf speakers are so small I need to use the SUB's Direct X-Over at 200 Hz to get the best effect (in this setup, I'm using the SUB OUT from my SS amp).

Regarding the bass stereo effect, I was under the impression that bass is essentially mono. Presumably, it does not have to be stereo. At least that is the notion around. Evidently you seem to have experienced a different result by making the bass stereo, which is somewhat peculiar and new to me.  While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day.


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Lon
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #114 - 01/07/12 at 15:45:28
 
I'd like to have one each of these per channel. Not sure my floor would take them though!

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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #115 - 01/07/12 at 15:56:56
 
BTW, in my curret SS setup (using the SUB OUT), every time I increase (or decrease) the amp's volume, the SUB's relative volume adjusts accordingly, automatically. I presume the same is true by connecting from the PRE OUTs. I would think not so when linking from the DAC.

In your case, the DAC has a volume setting and you can centralize all volume control there, but my DAC does not have that volume setting.  Mmmhhhh  ...  Should I then use the PRE OUTs instead ( to avoid having to re-adjust the SUB's volume every time I change the amp's volume?)  Is the PRE OUTs signal really volume setting dependent?
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Fireblade
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #116 - 01/07/12 at 16:01:45
 
Hey, Lon: You mean the girl or the mammoth speaker-looking protraction back there?
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opnly_bafld
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #117 - 01/07/12 at 16:33:05
 
"While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day."

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
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Lon
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #118 - 01/07/12 at 16:50:06
 
Well, my floor could stand a pair of the gals. I'm not sure that it will hold up to the pair of Jensens!
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Pale Rider
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Re: SE34i.2+ being discontinued!
Reply #119 - 01/07/12 at 17:13:57
 
Quote:
But, IMHO, this option is at least worth trying before considering the huge additional expense of a decent external active crossover (like the Bryston).


Agreed. I would love to have budget room for the Bryston, but no. And there are some well-made active crossovers that cost a bit less. Fireblade, depending on the aprpoach you take, you might want to consider one of the Paradigm X-10/20/30 units. Bob referred me to them, and so I picked up an X-30 off ebay. I am not sure if I will actually deploy it, because I am still wrestling with my own sub integration. I am getting two servo subs (Rhythmik guts) built in cabinets like my ERRs. Those won't be done for a little while. In the meantime, I am experimenting with my old Orb powered subwoofer just to see what seems to work with the system. Progress is slow, because I have very little free time this time of year, and I have some room placement challenges, and I am still figuring out the best way to take advantage of the Ultra's multiple outputs. Plus, I am tasking my subs to do double duty in both the HT aspect of my system, and the 2/5.1 audiophile side.

Anyway, there are a number of ways to go about integrating subs, as well-identified earlier in this thread. I highly recommend this series of articles on bass management and integration by the fellow from Red Spade Audio, because they will help reduce the trial & error work. I downloaded the software, procured the Behringer mike and mixer, and just started taking measurements. Having objective data to check against what your ears and brain are subjectively telling you is invaluable.

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« Last Edit: 01/07/12 at 17:32:35 by Pale Rider »  

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